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Slann are once again the inferior wizards in game

Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Registered Users Posts: 1,070
The Slann update changed them from being among the worst lords and casters in the game to being pretty damn good at their jobs of slinging spells. Now that High Elf Archmages are in the game, the Slann are once again playing second fiddle as wizards. There's no reason why Archmages should be better wizards than Slann, or Dark Elf Supreme Sorceresses for that matter (Archmages and Supreme Sorceresses should be equal in strength). But rather than tune the Archmage down, I want to tune the Slann up again.

Arcane Conduit
Rather than just getting Greater Arcane Conduit at the end of their spell tree, Slann should start with it and get Supreme Arcane Conduit as a new skill that boosts Winds regeneration even more.

Bound Spells
Slann are the supreme masters of magic int he Warhammer world. They are understandably limited to one Lore of magic in Total War, but are capable of wielding all 8 Winds and High Magic. Right now both the Slann and the Archmage have one bound vortex spell in their skill trees. Slann should either get:
- more options for their bound spell and have the ones you don't pick be locked off, or
- multiple bound spells from different lores

This will help further differentiate the Slann from lesser wizards by giving them more casting options. They should have at least 2 bound spells.

Slann Generations
Slann generations was a great idea and I'm glad CA made the difference between older and younger Slann apparent. The only thing I would do with it is shift the generations down one, Second becomes Third, etc. This is because there's only a handful of Second Generation Slann left, so they shouldn't be generic lords. Then give Mazdamundi a special Second Generation trait in addition to his legendary lord trait, even better than the current Second Generation trait.
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Comments

  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 821
    Oh my god. Stop it with all these egregious powercreeps!


    Just nerf the Archmages instead, THEY'RE the problem, not the Slanns.
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 538

    Oh my god. Stop it with all these egregious powercreeps!


    Just nerf the Archmages instead, THEY'RE the problem, not the Slanns.

    Nah, the Slann need to be most supreme casters in the game.

    Otherwise, access to all the lores and some extra bound spells would be great.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    Slann should definitely have access to all lores.

    As for nerfing arch mages - I think buffing slann would be perfectly acceptable.

    The most destructive casters will still be the damned Skaven casters.
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 2,823
    Itharus said:

    Slann should definitely have access to all lores.

    As for nerfing arch mages - I think buffing slann would be perfectly acceptable.

    The most destructive casters will still be the damned Skaven casters.

    NOOOOOO, you can't just spam a cheap spell over and over again to destroy my army!!!!

    Hahaha, warp lightning casts-goes zzap-zzzapp!!
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  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 3,913
    Supreme sorceresses are ridiculous, nerf them plz
  • Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 1,153

    Oh my god. Stop it with all these egregious powercreeps!


    Just nerf the Archmages instead, THEY'RE the problem, not the Slanns.

    Nah, the Slann need to be most supreme casters in the game.

    Otherwise, access to all the lores and some extra bound spells would be great.
    Slanns can still be the most supreme casters in the game AFTER the Archmages have been nerfed.
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  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 538
    Cortes31 said:

    Oh my god. Stop it with all these egregious powercreeps!


    Just nerf the Archmages instead, THEY'RE the problem, not the Slanns.

    Nah, the Slann need to be most supreme casters in the game.

    Otherwise, access to all the lores and some extra bound spells would be great.
    Slanns can still be the most supreme casters in the game AFTER the Archmages have been nerfed.
    I'm totally cool with a nerd to Archmages, but not at the cost of a worthwhile buff to Slann.
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 184
    Not everything in this game have go be balanced around lore. Both got bound spells and greater conduit I think do it is fine.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    Wyvax said:

    Itharus said:

    Slann should definitely have access to all lores.

    As for nerfing arch mages - I think buffing slann would be perfectly acceptable.

    The most destructive casters will still be the damned Skaven casters.

    NOOOOOO, you can't just spam a cheap spell over and over again to destroy my army!!!!

    Hahaha, warp lightning casts-goes zzap-zzzapp!!
    I want to like that comment but I fear that by doing so it could be misconstrued as supporting the BS you just described - which I do not.
  • YannirYannir Registered Users Posts: 478
    Did you forget about the Bubble of NOPE? Slann ARE the supreme casters still.
  • hhhmmmhhhmmm Registered Users Posts: 157
    Archmages are ridiculous, a nerf to them would be appropriate. Don't think we need better slanns, the life slann is already better than all of the lizardmen legendary lords as commanders.
  • manpersalmanpersal Registered Users Posts: 651
    edited July 15
    I'm not sure why people seem to care so much about this, the AI will never level them enough to make them count at all. Has anyone actually ever seen an ai archmage riding a dragon or even an eagle? With that in mind, warlock masters are way more OP -AP damage, high armour, a devastating signature spell-.

    So it's a matter about how we get fun from the game, and in that case, I'd rather give the same bonuses to slanns and call it a day.

    Concerning the supreme sorceress, it needs to be remembered that she get access to better traits -with the exception of the ridiculous incendiary-, the superior black dragon and the additional name of power, so I don't think they need any change besides giving them the greater arcane conduit at the end of their skill tree.

    So, the only nerf/rebalance archmages need concern the traits they get because they're either useless, either OP -only incendiary- and get instead the most character specific traits from princes and princesses -vigorous, resilient, strong, charmed...-, not the most powerful ones but good enough.

    The chain lighting bound spell should be changed by something more fitting like fiery convocation too.

    Maybe they could move arcane conduit to the middle of their magic skill tree and replace the +10 ward save for the +10 magic resistance everybody else gets.
  • Zogash85Zogash85 Registered Users Posts: 75
    hhhmmm said:

    Archmages are ridiculous, a nerf to them would be appropriate. Don't think we need better slanns, the life slann is already better than all of the lizardmen legendary lords as commanders.

    I 100% agree with this. Slann (especially of the Life and, to a slightly lesser degree, Fire varieties) aren't only arguably better than most, if not all, Lizardmen LLs, they have also made taking Oldbloods, RCSCs or *shudders* Ancient Kroxigors utterly pointless.

    Not only are they consummate casters in lores otherwise unavailable to Lizardmen (while the other Lords bring nothing to the table that cannot be just as adequately provided by heroes), they are also stupidly easy to make spawnable at a starting level of 20+ (or even max spawning level 39) by simply spamming Star Chambers in minor settlements (each adding +3 factionwide).

    Other lords are very hard to buff higher than starting level 6 or so, unless you purposely stack up on Humble heroes, meaning you have to tediously level them up over time to unlock their (rather limited) potential, whereas Slann come fully roided up straight out the gate.

    A buff to Slann is the very last thing we need right now!

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,018
    No buffs to Slann. EFF the powercreep. Nerf the Archmages.

  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Registered Users Posts: 176
    The answer to powercreep is a nerf hammer to the overpowered arch mage, not more powercreep
  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 1,003
    Agreed, nerf other casters to sub-Slann level. Don't buff Slann.
  • KatarianKatarian Registered Users Posts: 230
    Is the problem the Archmages actual casting ability or that casting ability whilst also being able to ride a Dragon?

    Obviously Incendiary is a serious problem for any High Elf Dragon mount users as well, though is that trait even doing anything on the live version with the WS bug?
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 5,803
    Wyvax said:

    Itharus said:

    Slann should definitely have access to all lores.

    As for nerfing arch mages - I think buffing slann would be perfectly acceptable.

    The most destructive casters will still be the damned Skaven casters.

    NOOOOOO, you can't just spam a cheap spell over and over again to destroy my army!!!!

    Hahaha, warp lightning casts-goes zzap-zzzapp!!
    Says every skaven player ever untill they get run over by a melee rush. Against a player this is nice tool. Not a guaranteed win.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,018

    Wyvax said:

    Itharus said:

    Slann should definitely have access to all lores.

    As for nerfing arch mages - I think buffing slann would be perfectly acceptable.

    The most destructive casters will still be the damned Skaven casters.

    NOOOOOO, you can't just spam a cheap spell over and over again to destroy my army!!!!

    Hahaha, warp lightning casts-goes zzap-zzzapp!!
    Says every skaven player ever untill they get run over by a melee rush. Against a player this is nice tool. Not a guaranteed win.
    The point is that this is about the one spell the AI uses effectively agains the player. All other AI mages can be safely ignored because they don't invest skillpoints in magic and even if they do, they use it badly. Once had a fire mage who cast Burning Head on me, but perpendicularly to my troops so it was essentially wasted.

  • manpersalmanpersal Registered Users Posts: 651
    Katarian said:

    Is the problem the Archmages actual casting ability or that casting ability whilst also being able to ride a Dragon?

    Obviously Incendiary is a serious problem for any High Elf Dragon mount users as well, though is that trait even doing anything on the live version with the WS bug?

    Honestly, I only see people taking the occassion to ask for buffs for their favourite races or to ask for nerfs to a race they dislike, very little reasoning out of a couple of comments.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 5,803

    Wyvax said:

    Itharus said:

    Slann should definitely have access to all lores.

    As for nerfing arch mages - I think buffing slann would be perfectly acceptable.

    The most destructive casters will still be the damned Skaven casters.

    NOOOOOO, you can't just spam a cheap spell over and over again to destroy my army!!!!

    Hahaha, warp lightning casts-goes zzap-zzzapp!!
    Says every skaven player ever untill they get run over by a melee rush. Against a player this is nice tool. Not a guaranteed win.
    The point is that this is about the one spell the AI uses effectively agains the player. All other AI mages can be safely ignored because they don't invest skillpoints in magic and even if they do, they use it badly. Once had a fire mage who cast Burning Head on me, but perpendicularly to my troops so it was essentially wasted.
    Ai is actually pretty good at using magic missile spells too.

    Or any low tier spells.

    I once saw in turin vs sotek head to head ai wind blast their own troops though.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Bogdanov89Bogdanov89 Registered Users Posts: 904
    Big problem with default slann is that their wimpy bodies are large targets, very slow, easy to surround and focus down and suck in combat - and they have no mount to improve on any of that.
    They basically have the worst body imaginable for a caster in TWW2, cant fight cant run/fly away and cant hide from focus fire.

    Compare them to other more popular casters who either have ferocious flying mounts (which protect and help them fight) - or are very powerful melee lords on their own that can fight even without monster mounts.

    Slann also suffer from being rather average casters.
    They are just... nothing special as casters.
    Combine that with their ATROCIOUSLY bad bodies and you got the worst caster in TWW2 by a mile.
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  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 5,803

    Big problem with default slann is that their wimpy bodies are large targets, very slow, easy to surround and focus down and suck in combat - and they have no mount to improve on any of that.
    They basically have the worst body imaginable for a caster in TWW2, cant fight cant run/fly away and cant hide from focus fire.

    Compare them to other more popular casters who either have ferocious flying mounts (which protect and help them fight) - or are very powerful melee lords on their own that can fight even without monster mounts.

    Slann also suffer from being rather average casters.
    They are just... nothing special as casters.
    Combine that with their ATROCIOUSLY bad bodies and you got the worst caster in TWW2 by a mile.

    Eh have you ever used a slaan in mp?
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Registered Users Posts: 1,254
    Sure and while we're balancing the game around a one line lore blurb, Malekith needs his ability to kill anyone, anywhere in the world at will with his gaze of malice. He should also start the game with no fog of war because he spends all his time in his tower scrying the world and knows everything.

    What do you mean balancing the game around a lore blurb is stupid and cringe?
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    Ancient Kroxigors are an awful idea for a lord choice. Also just not that great a lord.

    There's only *one* ancient kroxigor that leads armies - and he doesn't even lead - he just has people that follow him around like he's a grail knight or something.

    They have 0 strategic capacity or tactical acumen. They just go splatter things. They are stupid.

    Saurus are tailor made to lead armies and be their core units. They get overlooked and shafted so many ways :(

    Sometimes I wish there were actually unit limits on the more esoteric lords and that basic soldiery melee lords were by default the most numerous, cheapest, and fastest to level so that they actually had incentives to use them.

    Slann are limited, which is cool. But what's silly is they are the only ones and they're not even the strongest at what they do.
  • eomateomat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,538
    I want to see Slann get access to all the core lores of magic and be properly colour coded. Fire slann with his weapon on fire again and Heavens back to being blue.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 821

    Big problem with default slann is that their wimpy bodies are large targets, very slow, easy to surround and focus down and suck in combat - and they have no mount to improve on any of that.
    They basically have the worst body imaginable for a caster in TWW2, cant fight cant run/fly away and cant hide from focus fire.

    Compare them to other more popular casters who either have ferocious flying mounts (which protect and help them fight) - or are very powerful melee lords on their own that can fight even without monster mounts.

    Slann also suffer from being rather average casters.
    They are just... nothing special as casters.
    Combine that with their ATROCIOUSLY bad bodies and you got the worst caster in TWW2 by a mile.

    Sounds like you never played the game before.


    The Slanns are considered stronger than LL's. The Life Slanns in particular being the best.
  • DaGangsterDaGangster Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,287
    Despite having different methods of implementation i think we can all agree the generic caster should go somewhat like

    1. Slann/Tzeentch casters
    2. Elves(High/Dark/Wood)
    3. Vampires
    4. Everyone else

    I might have missed something but I enjoy reading all about Warhammer and this is my consensus.

    Team Vampire Counts

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  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,068

    Oh my god. Stop it with all these egregious powercreeps!


    Just nerf the Archmages instead, THEY'RE the problem, not the Slanns.

    No. Slann cannot mount dragons or move fast, have worse personal tree skill lines, have worse traits than names of power or influence traits. They also only have access to 4 lores of magic. Slann need to be the best casters and nothing in this game indicates that they are.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    Not Slann/Tzeentch ---- Slann, Tzeentch.

    Slann aren't even mortal beings... they exist across multiple realities and wield magic like it's frigging autonomic. Maybe a DAEMON of Tzeentch, but not a mortal.
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