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Some iNtErEsTiNg changes

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  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 390
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    it is totally unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. Not to mention its very strong hide.
    what im trying to say is a few horses will always be impaled on spears during a charge. this is much, much more likely then a spent bullet bounces off a flying dragon, travels 200 meters and headshots one of the people who shot at it
    Karaz-A-Karak discord: https://discord.gg/UZV6F5N
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,051
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    it is totally unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. Not to mention its very strong hide.
    I agree it is unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. I never said anything to counter to this. Why are you bringing this up? (Strawman much?)

    All I said is that "some (small) injury may result". That is all I said.
    The HP pool + Armor already takes into account the toughness of the SE. And would it be so hard to imagine that a Giant Spider charging into a block of braced spearmen gets impaled by 10 spears, causing it some small injury (in game represented by losing say 200 HP out of 11,000)?

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,348

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    it is totally unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. Not to mention its very strong hide.
    what im trying to say is a few horses will always be impaled on spears during a charge. this is much, much more likely then a spent bullet bounces off a flying dragon, travels 200 meters and headshots one of the people who shot at it
    I think one of the main issues is that spears are already in a good spot vs cav and frankly not in a horrible spot vs monsters either. Any tweaks should not be a nerf to cav or multi model chariot units either for that matter.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,051

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    Why would same not happen to infantry if we go by logic? Its quite safe to assume that swordsmen charging into spearmen would get stabbed before they reach so maybe spearmen should insta kill any front on chargign ifnantry
    You are correct. But you have to stop somewhere on the "realism" vs "practicality". If you push the "realism" to the extreme, the game won't make sense, gameplay will be broken and it won't be fun. The reason you don't need to reflect damage back on infantry charging in is they will start taking damage almost instantaneously anyways.
    And why would that be good for cav? sounds horrible on cav also, doesnt even make sense on a lot of untis that got charge defnese but no spear of any kind>

    I think you are nitpicking a bit here and not seeing that the effect of this would be minimal (almost non existent for cav). The reason is it would only apply for braced units with CDvL. How often do you frontally charge your cav into braced spears? I watch many of your games. You never do. So this would have no impact on your cav play at all.

    What I do sometimes see is SE (say like Kholek or Settra) just push right through braced spears. As though they were not there.
    Thats more that those units should receive MD penalty when they do like that.

    It would impact cav a lot, because you could have big boxes vs cav factions and no way to penetrate them.
    The impact would be minimal. Say a frontal Cav charge causes 400 HP loss due to damage reflection. Is this extra loss of HP going to really tip the balance?

    If a box is already viable vs cav army, it will continue to be viable. If a box is not currently viable, I can't see how adding this extra small amount of damage in very specific circumstances (front charge of braced uni) would suddenly make this previously beatable box suddenly unbeatable.

    I mean, you are basically arguing that boxes are already on the brink of being unbeatable by Cav factions and that the small change would tip it over the edge and make it unbeatable. That seems highly unlikely to me.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,348

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    Why would same not happen to infantry if we go by logic? Its quite safe to assume that swordsmen charging into spearmen would get stabbed before they reach so maybe spearmen should insta kill any front on chargign ifnantry
    You are correct. But you have to stop somewhere on the "realism" vs "practicality". If you push the "realism" to the extreme, the game won't make sense, gameplay will be broken and it won't be fun. The reason you don't need to reflect damage back on infantry charging in is they will start taking damage almost instantaneously anyways.
    And why would that be good for cav? sounds horrible on cav also, doesnt even make sense on a lot of untis that got charge defnese but no spear of any kind>

    I think you are nitpicking a bit here and not seeing that the effect of this would be minimal (almost non existent for cav). The reason is it would only apply for braced units with CDvL. How often do you frontally charge your cav into braced spears? I watch many of your games. You never do. So this would have no impact on your cav play at all.

    What I do sometimes see is SE (say like Kholek or Settra) just push right through braced spears. As though they were not there.
    Thats more that those units should receive MD penalty when they do like that.

    It would impact cav a lot, because you could have big boxes vs cav factions and no way to penetrate them.
    The impact would be minimal. Say a frontal Cav charge causes 400 HP loss due to damage reflection. Is this extra loss of HP going to really tip the balance?

    If a box is already viable vs cav army, it will continue to be viable. If a box is not currently viable, I can't see how adding this extra small amount of damage in very specific circumstances (front charge of braced uni) would suddenly make this previously beatable box suddenly unbeatable.

    I mean, you are basically arguing that boxes are already on the brink of being unbeatable by Cav factions and that the small change would tip it over the edge and make it unbeatable. That seems highly unlikely to me.
    Turn it around, what good could possibly come from blanket buffing boxes?
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,049

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    it is totally unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. Not to mention its very strong hide.
    what im trying to say is a few horses will always be impaled on spears during a charge. this is much, much more likely then a spent bullet bounces off a flying dragon, travels 200 meters and headshots one of the people who shot at it
    this is already the case and represented by the BvL.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,051

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    Why would same not happen to infantry if we go by logic? Its quite safe to assume that swordsmen charging into spearmen would get stabbed before they reach so maybe spearmen should insta kill any front on chargign ifnantry
    You are correct. But you have to stop somewhere on the "realism" vs "practicality". If you push the "realism" to the extreme, the game won't make sense, gameplay will be broken and it won't be fun. The reason you don't need to reflect damage back on infantry charging in is they will start taking damage almost instantaneously anyways.
    And why would that be good for cav? sounds horrible on cav also, doesnt even make sense on a lot of untis that got charge defnese but no spear of any kind>

    I think you are nitpicking a bit here and not seeing that the effect of this would be minimal (almost non existent for cav). The reason is it would only apply for braced units with CDvL. How often do you frontally charge your cav into braced spears? I watch many of your games. You never do. So this would have no impact on your cav play at all.

    What I do sometimes see is SE (say like Kholek or Settra) just push right through braced spears. As though they were not there.
    Thats more that those units should receive MD penalty when they do like that.

    It would impact cav a lot, because you could have big boxes vs cav factions and no way to penetrate them.
    The impact would be minimal. Say a frontal Cav charge causes 400 HP loss due to damage reflection. Is this extra loss of HP going to really tip the balance?

    If a box is already viable vs cav army, it will continue to be viable. If a box is not currently viable, I can't see how adding this extra small amount of damage in very specific circumstances (front charge of braced uni) would suddenly make this previously beatable box suddenly unbeatable.

    I mean, you are basically arguing that boxes are already on the brink of being unbeatable by Cav factions and that the small change would tip it over the edge and make it unbeatable. That seems highly unlikely to me.
    Turn it around, what good could possibly come from blanket buffing boxes?
    The answer is no good could come of it. But my argument would be that whatever small buff to boxes this change would give, would be outweighed by the benefits of having this mechanic in all other aspects of the game.

    I can also ask you a similar question: what good could possibly come from blanket buffing boxes through having units with CDvL? Surely removing this rule would make boxes weaker. And yet, we keep this rule. and most would agree it is a good rule. The reason is that while buffing boxes (presumably bad), it has many benefits for all other aspects of gameplay which outweigh the negatives.

    So the only difference between having CDvL on units and having the "damage reflection" mechanic is that one is currently in the game, and the other is not.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,049

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    it is totally unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. Not to mention its very strong hide.
    I agree it is unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. I never said anything to counter to this. Why are you bringing this up? (Strawman much?)

    All I said is that "some (small) injury may result". That is all I said.
    The HP pool + Armor already takes into account the toughness of the SE. And would it be so hard to imagine that a Giant Spider charging into a block of braced spearmen gets impaled by 10 spears, causing it some small injury (in game represented by losing say 200 HP out of 11,000)?

    some minor flesh wounds or scratches don't count as actual wounds in the same fashion as a grass leaf slashing your cheek wouldn't prevent you from fighting at full capacity either.

    Attacks from spears toward monsters are akin to a grass leaf cut on your skin.

    If you want a "realistic" example of why spears do poorly vs large, think of Smaug from the Hobbit fighting Lake Town. Nothing could injure him as his hide was too strong.

    Already CA did you a favor by making monsters FAR more vulnerable than how they were in lore, you clearly never read GW lore, Star Dragons could fight Greater Daemons, Giants could crush whole regiments with 1 hand. That's GW stuff for you, not something I'm inventing.

    If anything, lore-wise monsters should be FAR stronger.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 390
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    it is totally unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. Not to mention its very strong hide.
    I agree it is unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. I never said anything to counter to this. Why are you bringing this up? (Strawman much?)

    All I said is that "some (small) injury may result". That is all I said.
    The HP pool + Armor already takes into account the toughness of the SE. And would it be so hard to imagine that a Giant Spider charging into a block of braced spearmen gets impaled by 10 spears, causing it some small injury (in game represented by losing say 200 HP out of 11,000)?

    some minor flesh wounds or scratches don't count as actual wounds in the same fashion as a grass leaf slashing your cheek wouldn't prevent you from fighting at full capacity either.

    Attacks from spears toward monsters are akin to a grass leaf cut on your skin.

    If you want a "realistic" example of why spears do poorly vs large, think of Smaug from the Hobbit fighting Lake Town. Nothing could injure him as his hide was too strong.

    Already CA did you a favor by making monsters FAR more vulnerable than how they were in lore, you clearly never read GW lore, Star Dragons could fight Greater Daemons, Giants could crush whole regiments with 1 hand. That's GW stuff for you, not something I'm inventing.

    If anything, lore-wise monsters should be FAR stronger.
    A bolt thrower once oneshot a dragon as far as i know.
    Karaz-A-Karak discord: https://discord.gg/UZV6F5N
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,049
    edited July 24

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    it is totally unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. Not to mention its very strong hide.
    I agree it is unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. I never said anything to counter to this. Why are you bringing this up? (Strawman much?)

    All I said is that "some (small) injury may result". That is all I said.
    The HP pool + Armor already takes into account the toughness of the SE. And would it be so hard to imagine that a Giant Spider charging into a block of braced spearmen gets impaled by 10 spears, causing it some small injury (in game represented by losing say 200 HP out of 11,000)?

    some minor flesh wounds or scratches don't count as actual wounds in the same fashion as a grass leaf slashing your cheek wouldn't prevent you from fighting at full capacity either.

    Attacks from spears toward monsters are akin to a grass leaf cut on your skin.

    If you want a "realistic" example of why spears do poorly vs large, think of Smaug from the Hobbit fighting Lake Town. Nothing could injure him as his hide was too strong.

    Already CA did you a favor by making monsters FAR more vulnerable than how they were in lore, you clearly never read GW lore, Star Dragons could fight Greater Daemons, Giants could crush whole regiments with 1 hand. That's GW stuff for you, not something I'm inventing.

    If anything, lore-wise monsters should be FAR stronger.
    A bolt thrower once oneshot a dragon as far as i know.
    no you know very wrong Bolt Throwers needed to roll to hit, that was a 3+ at long range, to Wound, this one was particularly hard it was a 4+, then you would roll D3 wounds. Dragons had 6 Wounds in TT. That's 0.66 Wounds a turn in tabletop vs a beast that had 6 Wounds. Normally you would hide big beasts behind hills or forests, every tournament map had terrain and unlike TW:W2, monsters "jumped" because it was turn based. The Fly rule meant simply 20" movement ignoring all terrain but you could not shoot at said monsters "mid flight" like you can in TW. Funnily enough, you couldn't shoot at them if they were engaged in melee either, because TT had this rule that you were not allowed to fire if there was risk of killing your own units (Skaven were an exception). In short, this means that you had typically 1 turn to fire on a big monster and then you couldn't for the rest of the game as it would jump from melee engagement to melee engagement with no downtime.

    If you're referring to the movie, the thing Bard did to Smaug is like... just to drive a story. Hit him exactly where his hide had collapsed and yatta yatta. In reality the first Black Arrow didn't even injure Smaug so there's your "average scenario" of how effective small-arms fire is against monsters.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,048
    edited July 24
    Cannons were notorious for blapping monsters as well...

    Also using LOTR is a bad reference point. The the most powerful balrog in LOTR was defeated by an elf lord on foot. There are dozens of instances of similar feats occurring in that mythos. Probably not the lore you want to pull from.

    Which brings us to the point that, remarkably, fantasy lore is always remarkably inconsistent and shouldn't be used as a benchmark for balancing purposes or to justify gameplay mechanics
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,642

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    Why would same not happen to infantry if we go by logic? Its quite safe to assume that swordsmen charging into spearmen would get stabbed before they reach so maybe spearmen should insta kill any front on chargign ifnantry
    You are correct. But you have to stop somewhere on the "realism" vs "practicality". If you push the "realism" to the extreme, the game won't make sense, gameplay will be broken and it won't be fun. The reason you don't need to reflect damage back on infantry charging in is they will start taking damage almost instantaneously anyways.
    And why would that be good for cav? sounds horrible on cav also, doesnt even make sense on a lot of untis that got charge defnese but no spear of any kind>

    I think you are nitpicking a bit here and not seeing that the effect of this would be minimal (almost non existent for cav). The reason is it would only apply for braced units with CDvL. How often do you frontally charge your cav into braced spears? I watch many of your games. You never do. So this would have no impact on your cav play at all.

    What I do sometimes see is SE (say like Kholek or Settra) just push right through braced spears. As though they were not there.
    Thats more that those units should receive MD penalty when they do like that.

    It would impact cav a lot, because you could have big boxes vs cav factions and no way to penetrate them.
    The impact would be minimal. Say a frontal Cav charge causes 400 HP loss due to damage reflection. Is this extra loss of HP going to really tip the balance?

    If a box is already viable vs cav army, it will continue to be viable. If a box is not currently viable, I can't see how adding this extra small amount of damage in very specific circumstances (front charge of braced uni) would suddenly make this previously beatable box suddenly unbeatable.

    I mean, you are basically arguing that boxes are already on the brink of being unbeatable by Cav factions and that the small change would tip it over the edge and make it unbeatable. That seems highly unlikely to me.
    dsilike it alot, apart form it doesnt make sense, its also what if you have 10 soldiers left late game why are they now dealing 400 damage to charging cav?

    DMG reflection is a silly idea and im totally agaisnt it for any unit type.



    If we go by opposite should cav start doign impact damage to unbraced infantry in same way chariots do? and so should more monsters
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,049
    my post got eaten by the forums, in any case you guys are very wrong, they generally couldn't. Bolt Throwers did an averave 0.66 Wounds a turn vs a big beast, Cannons it's harder to calculate because you had to guess the " distance and then the ball bounced twice... even then you had misfires, terrain and so on. Cannons did D6 Wounds, but still needed to wound on a 2+, some characters like Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon could have as much as 3+ Ward save vs this type of attacks from ranged. D6 Wounds also doesn't mean 6 wounds, it means... D6. So no, on average you didn't 1 shot dragons, you had to be VERY lucky. On average, due to the "to wound" roll requirement and misfires, you didn't even 2 shot dragons.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 390
    Green0 said:

    my post got eaten by the forums, in any case you guys are very wrong, they generally couldn't. Bolt Throwers did an averave 0.66 Wounds a turn vs a big beast, Cannons it's harder to calculate because you had to guess the " distance and then the ball bounced twice... even then you had misfires, terrain and so on. Cannons did D6 Wounds, but still needed to wound on a 2+, some characters like Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon could have as much as 3+ Ward save vs this type of attacks from ranged. D6 Wounds also doesn't mean 6 wounds, it means... D6. So no, on average you didn't 1 shot dragons, you had to be VERY lucky. On average, due to the "to wound" roll requirement and misfires, you didn't even 2 shot dragons.

    In lore
    Karaz-A-Karak discord: https://discord.gg/UZV6F5N
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 390

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    Why would same not happen to infantry if we go by logic? Its quite safe to assume that swordsmen charging into spearmen would get stabbed before they reach so maybe spearmen should insta kill any front on chargign ifnantry
    You are correct. But you have to stop somewhere on the "realism" vs "practicality". If you push the "realism" to the extreme, the game won't make sense, gameplay will be broken and it won't be fun. The reason you don't need to reflect damage back on infantry charging in is they will start taking damage almost instantaneously anyways.
    And why would that be good for cav? sounds horrible on cav also, doesnt even make sense on a lot of untis that got charge defnese but no spear of any kind>

    I think you are nitpicking a bit here and not seeing that the effect of this would be minimal (almost non existent for cav). The reason is it would only apply for braced units with CDvL. How often do you frontally charge your cav into braced spears? I watch many of your games. You never do. So this would have no impact on your cav play at all.

    What I do sometimes see is SE (say like Kholek or Settra) just push right through braced spears. As though they were not there.
    Thats more that those units should receive MD penalty when they do like that.

    It would impact cav a lot, because you could have big boxes vs cav factions and no way to penetrate them.
    The impact would be minimal. Say a frontal Cav charge causes 400 HP loss due to damage reflection. Is this extra loss of HP going to really tip the balance?

    If a box is already viable vs cav army, it will continue to be viable. If a box is not currently viable, I can't see how adding this extra small amount of damage in very specific circumstances (front charge of braced uni) would suddenly make this previously beatable box suddenly unbeatable.

    I mean, you are basically arguing that boxes are already on the brink of being unbeatable by Cav factions and that the small change would tip it over the edge and make it unbeatable. That seems highly unlikely to me.
    dsilike it alot, apart form it doesnt make sense, its also what if you have 10 soldiers left late game why are they now dealing 400 damage to charging cav?

    DMG reflection is a silly idea and im totally agaisnt it for any unit type.



    If we go by opposite should cav start doign impact damage to unbraced infantry in same way chariots do? and so should more monsters
    I mean, i literally said it could be percentage based OR it would just allow braced spears to instantly counter attack
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,049
    edited July 24

    Green0 said:

    my post got eaten by the forums, in any case you guys are very wrong, they generally couldn't. Bolt Throwers did an averave 0.66 Wounds a turn vs a big beast, Cannons it's harder to calculate because you had to guess the " distance and then the ball bounced twice... even then you had misfires, terrain and so on. Cannons did D6 Wounds, but still needed to wound on a 2+, some characters like Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon could have as much as 3+ Ward save vs this type of attacks from ranged. D6 Wounds also doesn't mean 6 wounds, it means... D6. So no, on average you didn't 1 shot dragons, you had to be VERY lucky. On average, due to the "to wound" roll requirement and misfires, you didn't even 2 shot dragons.

    In lore
    in lore it is said that a Giant could kill a whole regiment of soldiers with one hand, Star Dragons could kill Greater Daemons. Monsters in lore were FAR stronger than in tabletop, infantry regardless of quality stood absolutely no chance, likewise Cannonballs.

    You see big beasts in lore die typically in duels vs some champion like Grimgor, or have their minds corrupted like it happened to Galrauch, or be sniped by some BIG and unique artillery piece of which there is only 1 in the whole WH world and was crafted in Nuln or something like that.

    Regular Cannons didn't do anything to big beasts in lore.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,051

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    Why would same not happen to infantry if we go by logic? Its quite safe to assume that swordsmen charging into spearmen would get stabbed before they reach so maybe spearmen should insta kill any front on chargign ifnantry
    You are correct. But you have to stop somewhere on the "realism" vs "practicality". If you push the "realism" to the extreme, the game won't make sense, gameplay will be broken and it won't be fun. The reason you don't need to reflect damage back on infantry charging in is they will start taking damage almost instantaneously anyways.
    And why would that be good for cav? sounds horrible on cav also, doesnt even make sense on a lot of untis that got charge defnese but no spear of any kind>

    I think you are nitpicking a bit here and not seeing that the effect of this would be minimal (almost non existent for cav). The reason is it would only apply for braced units with CDvL. How often do you frontally charge your cav into braced spears? I watch many of your games. You never do. So this would have no impact on your cav play at all.

    What I do sometimes see is SE (say like Kholek or Settra) just push right through braced spears. As though they were not there.
    Thats more that those units should receive MD penalty when they do like that.

    It would impact cav a lot, because you could have big boxes vs cav factions and no way to penetrate them.
    The impact would be minimal. Say a frontal Cav charge causes 400 HP loss due to damage reflection. Is this extra loss of HP going to really tip the balance?

    If a box is already viable vs cav army, it will continue to be viable. If a box is not currently viable, I can't see how adding this extra small amount of damage in very specific circumstances (front charge of braced uni) would suddenly make this previously beatable box suddenly unbeatable.

    I mean, you are basically arguing that boxes are already on the brink of being unbeatable by Cav factions and that the small change would tip it over the edge and make it unbeatable. That seems highly unlikely to me.
    dsilike it alot, apart form it doesnt make sense, its also what if you have 10 soldiers left late game why are they now dealing 400 damage to charging cav?

    DMG reflection is a silly idea and im totally agaisnt it for any unit type.



    If we go by opposite should cav start doign impact damage to unbraced infantry in same way chariots do? and so should more monsters
    Lotus you are trying to really nitpick. Of course 10 soldiers are not going to do 400 damage. It's just a random number I chose out of thin air. The damage could be something like this: (each braced model that comes into contact with a large charging model has X% chance to attack the charging model). This means that in the more soldiers that make contact with the charging model, the more potential attacks are directed at the monster. Notice that quality of soldiers matters because they are making regular attacks. So Bret Spears will do less damage than Saurus spears. Also, the X% can be tweaked to make it have a more or less damaging effect. (100% would mean all soldiers get to make a regular attack roll).
    Also, I though charging Cav do already do some kind of impact damage (but not like chariot) or am I wrong?
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,051
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    it is totally unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. Not to mention its very strong hide.
    I agree it is unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. I never said anything to counter to this. Why are you bringing this up? (Strawman much?)

    All I said is that "some (small) injury may result". That is all I said.
    The HP pool + Armor already takes into account the toughness of the SE. And would it be so hard to imagine that a Giant Spider charging into a block of braced spearmen gets impaled by 10 spears, causing it some small injury (in game represented by losing say 200 HP out of 11,000)?

    some minor flesh wounds or scratches don't count as actual wounds in the same fashion as a grass leaf slashing your cheek wouldn't prevent you from fighting at full capacity either.

    Attacks from spears toward monsters are akin to a grass leaf cut on your skin.

    If you want a "realistic" example of why spears do poorly vs large, think of Smaug from the Hobbit fighting Lake Town. Nothing could injure him as his hide was too strong.

    Already CA did you a favor by making monsters FAR more vulnerable than how they were in lore, you clearly never read GW lore, Star Dragons could fight Greater Daemons, Giants could crush whole regiments with 1 hand. That's GW stuff for you, not something I'm inventing.

    If anything, lore-wise monsters should be FAR stronger.
    Green, sorry but your argument false apart with some simple logic. If it were true that "Attacks from spears toward monsters are akin to a grass leaf cut on your skin", then spear units would not be able to damage monsters in this game. but they are able to damage monsters. Whether this makes sense based on lore or not its not the issue. The developers have decided that they can indeed damage monsters. In fact, no one has a problem with this. Otherwise gameplay would be pretty bad. So now given we both accept that spearmen can hurt monsters in this game, is it really that far of a stretch to say that when the monster makes contact with a braced spear unit, it takes a little bit of extra damage?
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 390
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    my post got eaten by the forums, in any case you guys are very wrong, they generally couldn't. Bolt Throwers did an averave 0.66 Wounds a turn vs a big beast, Cannons it's harder to calculate because you had to guess the " distance and then the ball bounced twice... even then you had misfires, terrain and so on. Cannons did D6 Wounds, but still needed to wound on a 2+, some characters like Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon could have as much as 3+ Ward save vs this type of attacks from ranged. D6 Wounds also doesn't mean 6 wounds, it means... D6. So no, on average you didn't 1 shot dragons, you had to be VERY lucky. On average, due to the "to wound" roll requirement and misfires, you didn't even 2 shot dragons.

    In lore
    in lore it is said that a Giant could kill a whole regiment of soldiers with one hand, Star Dragons could kill Greater Daemons. Monsters in lore were FAR stronger than in tabletop, infantry regardless of quality stood absolutely no chance, likewise Cannonballs.

    You see big beasts in lore die typically in duels vs some champion like Grimgor, or have their minds corrupted like it happened to Galrauch, or be sniped by some BIG and unique artillery piece of which there is only 1 in the whole WH world and was crafted in Nuln or something like that.

    Regular Cannons didn't do anything to big beasts in lore.
    They can also die to bolt throwers and cannons. "Regular" cannons do plently to big monsters. imagine getting punched in the face multiple times while flying. Then imagine you get hit in the kidney or one of your ribs break.

    Ive stood in front of "regular" cannons irl and i can guarantee they can **** monsters up big time
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  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,051

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    my post got eaten by the forums, in any case you guys are very wrong, they generally couldn't. Bolt Throwers did an averave 0.66 Wounds a turn vs a big beast, Cannons it's harder to calculate because you had to guess the " distance and then the ball bounced twice... even then you had misfires, terrain and so on. Cannons did D6 Wounds, but still needed to wound on a 2+, some characters like Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon could have as much as 3+ Ward save vs this type of attacks from ranged. D6 Wounds also doesn't mean 6 wounds, it means... D6. So no, on average you didn't 1 shot dragons, you had to be VERY lucky. On average, due to the "to wound" roll requirement and misfires, you didn't even 2 shot dragons.

    In lore
    in lore it is said that a Giant could kill a whole regiment of soldiers with one hand, Star Dragons could kill Greater Daemons. Monsters in lore were FAR stronger than in tabletop, infantry regardless of quality stood absolutely no chance, likewise Cannonballs.

    You see big beasts in lore die typically in duels vs some champion like Grimgor, or have their minds corrupted like it happened to Galrauch, or be sniped by some BIG and unique artillery piece of which there is only 1 in the whole WH world and was crafted in Nuln or something like that.

    Regular Cannons didn't do anything to big beasts in lore.
    They can also die to bolt throwers and cannons. "Regular" cannons do plently to big monsters. imagine getting punched in the face multiple times while flying. Then imagine you get hit in the kidney or one of your ribs break.

    Ive stood in front of "regular" cannons irl and i can guarantee they can **** monsters up big time
    Have you stood next to a dragon IRL? How can you say that a real life cannon could damage a monster from a fantasy world?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,340

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    my post got eaten by the forums, in any case you guys are very wrong, they generally couldn't. Bolt Throwers did an averave 0.66 Wounds a turn vs a big beast, Cannons it's harder to calculate because you had to guess the " distance and then the ball bounced twice... even then you had misfires, terrain and so on. Cannons did D6 Wounds, but still needed to wound on a 2+, some characters like Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon could have as much as 3+ Ward save vs this type of attacks from ranged. D6 Wounds also doesn't mean 6 wounds, it means... D6. So no, on average you didn't 1 shot dragons, you had to be VERY lucky. On average, due to the "to wound" roll requirement and misfires, you didn't even 2 shot dragons.

    In lore
    in lore it is said that a Giant could kill a whole regiment of soldiers with one hand, Star Dragons could kill Greater Daemons. Monsters in lore were FAR stronger than in tabletop, infantry regardless of quality stood absolutely no chance, likewise Cannonballs.

    You see big beasts in lore die typically in duels vs some champion like Grimgor, or have their minds corrupted like it happened to Galrauch, or be sniped by some BIG and unique artillery piece of which there is only 1 in the whole WH world and was crafted in Nuln or something like that.

    Regular Cannons didn't do anything to big beasts in lore.
    They can also die to bolt throwers and cannons. "Regular" cannons do plently to big monsters. imagine getting punched in the face multiple times while flying. Then imagine you get hit in the kidney or one of your ribs break.

    Ive stood in front of "regular" cannons irl and i can guarantee they can **** monsters up big time
    Have you stood next to a dragon IRL? How can you say that a real life cannon could damage a monster from a fantasy world?
    Dragons still have bones, muscles and internal organs that can be hurt by the kinetic impact of projectiles, don't they? They're not blob monsters or ethereal. Saying "it's fantasy" is a cop out. On the TT cannons and other heavy hitting artillery were the go-to pieces to deal with monsters.

    If swords, lances and spears can hurt a dragon you damn well better believe that a cannonball can do so too.

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,049
    edited July 24

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    here we go again...

    ... if this means big beasts (Dragons, Stegadons etc...) also get damage reflection when being shot at by units like Handgunners and similar. I'd say 30% missile damage reflection is a good number due to their hide reflecting bullets back at their foes.

    That is so ridiculous. It must be a joke right? You mean if a cannon shoots a Dragon from 400m away, the cannon takes 30% damage from part of the cannonball bouncing back 400m directly at the cannon?

    Or 30% of waywatcher arrows bouncing off of a giant, turning around and flying back at the waywatchers and damaging them?

    WTF????
    sounds ridiculous? That's how charge reflection while braced sounds to my ears.
    Except, when a monster PHYSICALLY hits a point stick, it is not unreasonable to assume that some (small) injury may result in that.
    it is totally unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. Not to mention its very strong hide.
    I agree it is unreasonable to expect a man-sized soldier to stop the momentum of a giant beast that can weight several hundred tons if not thousands. I never said anything to counter to this. Why are you bringing this up? (Strawman much?)

    All I said is that "some (small) injury may result". That is all I said.
    The HP pool + Armor already takes into account the toughness of the SE. And would it be so hard to imagine that a Giant Spider charging into a block of braced spearmen gets impaled by 10 spears, causing it some small injury (in game represented by losing say 200 HP out of 11,000)?

    some minor flesh wounds or scratches don't count as actual wounds in the same fashion as a grass leaf slashing your cheek wouldn't prevent you from fighting at full capacity either.

    Attacks from spears toward monsters are akin to a grass leaf cut on your skin.

    If you want a "realistic" example of why spears do poorly vs large, think of Smaug from the Hobbit fighting Lake Town. Nothing could injure him as his hide was too strong.

    Already CA did you a favor by making monsters FAR more vulnerable than how they were in lore, you clearly never read GW lore, Star Dragons could fight Greater Daemons, Giants could crush whole regiments with 1 hand. That's GW stuff for you, not something I'm inventing.

    If anything, lore-wise monsters should be FAR stronger.
    Green, sorry but your argument false apart with some simple logic. If it were true that "Attacks from spears toward monsters are akin to a grass leaf cut on your skin", then spear units would not be able to damage monsters in this game. but they are able to damage monsters. Whether this makes sense based on lore or not its not the issue. The developers have decided that they can indeed damage monsters. In fact, no one has a problem with this. Otherwise gameplay would be pretty bad. So now given we both accept that spearmen can hurt monsters in this game, is it really that far of a stretch to say that when the monster makes contact with a braced spear unit, it takes a little bit of extra damage?
    yes. Spears should be used as a supporting buffer with something else to deter monsters by providing additional meatshield HP and a bit extra DPS. It is unreasonable given the cheapness of units like Phoenix Guard or Emp Spearmen when compared to elite monsters to expect them to do significant damage 1v1.

    And I mean, already now it's the case that halberds/spears do damage to cycle charging monsters. Let's say a Stegadon, it has a good charge animation but typically after that it's very sluggish both in terms of speed and turn speed. That's the moment when you retaliate.

    Exhaustion further compounds the strength of spear units because as monsters get exhausted their speed and animations get weaker hence spears retaliate even more.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,049
    edited July 24
    to put it another way, I think currently

    - infantry is a bit overtuned (present in every game) but it's mostly fine that way except spectacular outliers like Berserkers. Spear infantry specifically seems to be a tad too versatile. But again, it's fine.
    - monster infantry is a bit too strong in my opinion (I know many will disagree on this). I think if you can pick a unit like Stone Trolls or Minotaurs in most matchups, this is symptom of the unit being too strong/versatile. Not a strong priority but something to monitor surely.
    - selected ranged units are too strong. Generally those that are cheap while not routing easily. Mostly looking at VP and to a degree Dwarves (but only those toxic 12+ ranged units builds)
    - cavalry is slightly underpowered, especially elite cav is suffering.
    - missile cav is a bit too hard to hit while not being overtuned often it had no counterplay other than "wait out all ammo". More magic/missiles should be introduced to counter specifically this category.
    - SEMs can be strong or weak, it comes down to the individual monster. Here I'm up for reducing the healing cap slightly, but also some monsters like Luthor need to not be able to fire in melee, and perhaps not regenerate considering how strong they are. Arachnaroks could have less armor, Mammoths could perhaps have lower LD. But here it's a lengthy discussion. In short, some SEMs are too strong, some are balanced, some are UP.
    - hybrid lords are a bit too strong/cheap. Generally underpriced by 100-200g. Again, lengthy discussion.
    - horse lords are trash, animations issues. Attacks often don't connect and they get staggered tons. Generally horse lords will lose you games because they are bad while being relatively expensive and noticeably easier to goon than footlords.
    - foot lords are not trash but also have inconsistent animations/interactions. Could use reworks also with stats rebalancing. In terms of winning games, they can win or lose games, it comes down to the quality of the player using them.

    This is my view on the state of the game I absolutely don't see a problem with how foot infantry/characters work atm from a pure balancing perspective.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 20,316
    Let's all get back to discussing the OP's thread topic. Thanks.
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  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 3,026
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    my post got eaten by the forums, in any case you guys are very wrong, they generally couldn't. Bolt Throwers did an averave 0.66 Wounds a turn vs a big beast, Cannons it's harder to calculate because you had to guess the " distance and then the ball bounced twice... even then you had misfires, terrain and so on. Cannons did D6 Wounds, but still needed to wound on a 2+, some characters like Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon could have as much as 3+ Ward save vs this type of attacks from ranged. D6 Wounds also doesn't mean 6 wounds, it means... D6. So no, on average you didn't 1 shot dragons, you had to be VERY lucky. On average, due to the "to wound" roll requirement and misfires, you didn't even 2 shot dragons.

    In lore
    Regular Cannons didn't do anything to big beasts in lore.
    Well which lore is that? How do you think dwarfs wrekked the numberless horde of elven dragons in War of Vengeance? It was bolt throwers. Gunpowder wasn't even properly used there so no cannons. But cannons also manhandled dragons on TT so there's that.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,112
    edited July 25
    The whole point of charge reflection mechanics is using your opponent's momentum against them, by bracing your weapon against the ground. Monsters might have a lot of mass, but the planet has more. The fact that they're hitting with a lot of momentum is a point in favour of why they should take damage, not against.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that the damage should be ridiculously large, that monsters running onto braced spears should instantly die - you can still make it so that expensive monsters can brute force their way through a good number of cheap spears and keep that shadow of the colossus feeling, taking a trickle of damage rather than a flood. But right now the knockback mechanics mean that sufficiently fast & massive units can charged braced spears without taking any damage at all, and that defeats the point of having braced spears. When a Khemrian Warsphinx can cycle charge down a static unit of Phoenix Guard while taking barely any damage, something is wrong in the relationship between these two unit types.

    Design-wise it doesn't matter whether you use charge reflection or another approach, as long as you find a way to represent the intuitive outcome - I'm sure there are other approaches that could be taken that still use the unit's MA and BvI, but just make sure they get a chance to throw an attack rather than immediately getting thrown through the air.


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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,642

    The whole point of charge reflection mechanics is using your opponent's momentum against them, by bracing your weapon against the ground. Monsters might have a lot of mass, but the planet has more. The fact that they're hitting with a lot of momentum is a point in favour of why they should take damage, not against.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that the damage should be ridiculously large, that monsters running onto braced spears should instantly die - you can still make it so that expensive monsters can brute force their way through a good number of cheap spears and keep that shadow of the colossus feeling, taking a trickle of damage rather than a flood. But right now the knockback mechanics mean that sufficiently fast & massive units can charged braced spears without taking any damage at all, and that defeats the point of having braced spears. When a Khemrian Warsphinx can cycle charge down a static unit of Phoenix Guard while taking barely any damage, something is wrong in the relationship between these two unit types.

    Design-wise it doesn't matter whether you use charge reflection or another approach, as long as you find a way to represent the intuitive outcome - I'm sure there are other approaches that could be taken that still use the unit's MA and BvI, but just make sure they get a chance to throw an attack rather than immediately getting thrown through the air.

    Should cav with lances get charge defense vs monsters and than damage reflection?

    Perhaps a mechanic could be that units with charge defense that are braced vs their specific target ignore opponents MD for the first hit.

    So a spearmen who got 20ma + 20bvL would have 35 + 20 + 20 = 75% hit chance on first hit.

    Or if thats too strong than 1/2 the MD.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,112
    edited July 25

    Should cav with lances get charge defense vs monsters and than damage reflection?

    ...how do you brace a cavalry lance against the ground? If they add a dismount button to the game then sure.

    Perhaps a mechanic could be that units with charge defense that are braced vs their specific target ignore opponents MD for the first hit.

    So a spearmen who got 20ma + 20bvL would have 35 + 20 + 20 = 75% hit chance on first hit.

    Or if thats too strong than 1/2 the MD.

    This seems pretty similar to what granting BvL already does to me, just with a slightly shifted range of outcomes (better vs high MD monsters, worse vs low MD ones). It won't get around the problem that the model from the braced unit doesn't get to attack in the first place, because the monster sends it flying through the air before it can complete an attack animation.



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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,348
    You can argue for charge reflection physically but in that case braced spears should also not be immune to incoming damage by nullifying the cb of the charger. Every knocked back model should die instead then... What we have now is instead a less lethal charge mechanics where both units survive the impact.

    I also don't agree you take no damage unless it is again late game or a cheap low mass spear. Charge a unit of braced bg in block formation with anything and you will deal a rather small amount of impact damage, then after 3 secs you will start losing that fight. You will not be able to pull out of that without taking much more damage than you deal. That works well. The only thing is that when your units are tattered late and you put them in 2-3 ranks and their ld is tanked, then they do nothing, and likely terror route even before impact so you don't even get the cdvl.

    If you side cycle charge that is different, but the mechanics discussed only affects braced units so that would stay the same anyways.

    Like I said before, requiring fewer ranks to get good mass bonus could help, but I think also the base mass of some of the lighter but more expensive spears would help. Also having models reach their bracing faster would help. This could be done without completely changing how the charge mechanics works.

    The other important thing is that cav is balanced. No reason to nerf cav, or multiple model chariot units, or monstrous infantry, or even the balanced sems, when your target is the best sems.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,642
    edited July 25

    Should cav with lances get charge defense vs monsters and than damage reflection?

    ...how do you brace a cavalry lance against the ground? If they add a dismount button to the game then sure.

    Perhaps a mechanic could be that units with charge defense that are braced vs their specific target ignore opponents MD for the first hit.

    So a spearmen who got 20ma + 20bvL would have 35 + 20 + 20 = 75% hit chance on first hit.

    Or if thats too strong than 1/2 the MD.

    This seems pretty similar to what granting BvL already does to me, just with a slightly shifted range of outcomes (better vs high MD monsters, worse vs low MD ones). It won't get around the problem that the model from the braced unit doesn't get to attack in the first place, because the monster sends it flying through the air before it can complete an attack animation.

    But the ones that come into contact with it there after would get the 1 boosted attack.
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