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I realized the Chaos Dwarfs are just the Dark Elves but significantly better written

The more I look into the Lore of the Chaos Dwarfs I realize that they take pretty much everything the Dark Elves do but do it in a much more interesting way. Here's what I mean
  1. They have a much more interesting reason to be evil. They were cutoff from the rest of the Dwarf holds and were forced to sign a deal with a minor Chaos God to survive and perform these evil acts to appease him. Their isolation also explains their hatred of the other races as they felt betrayed and abandoned. Compare this to Dark Elves where their evil motivations can be explained by "Lol, sounds fun."
  2. They are actually practical when it comes to diplomacy. They have a surprisingly decent number of foreign allies including Ogres, and numerous chaos factions as trade partners and even military allies. Compare this to the Dark Elves who antagonize the others so much it's a miracle they're even still around.
  3. How they approach their cousins is much more interesting. They hate each other, of course, but it comes down more towards a feeling of betrayal and abandonment than simply wanting their own guy to be king. The way some Chaos Dwarfs talk about the normal Dawi passes on the idea that they'd have loved it if things were different, but their cowardice and betrayal lead them to the true path. Compare to the Dark Elves who's motive is "We like Malekith, **** everyone who doesn't."
  4. Their style of slavery is much more realistic and we see it bite them in the ass a few times. Enslaving orcs certainly wasn't the best tidea, and with the Black Orcs we actually get to see a few slave rebellions which would actually happen in this kind of society. Compare to the Dark Elves were slaves never rebel, which I find HIGHLY unrealistic in the 7,000 years the Druchii have been a thing.

Comments

  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 656
    Even dawi that can barely be called such are better then knife ear, tbh I have no idea why chaos dwarfs were kicked around like they were, very interesting aesthetics, weapons and desigh, I'd love to read a book about the dwarfs and the chaos dwarfs fighting, but what I find interesting is that Norse dwarfs have a similar thing, 3 kinds of dwarf and elf, "good", evil and your just trying to get people to stay away from them
  • HarkovastHarkovast Registered Users Posts: 2,059

    For The Lady, for Manann, for Bordeleaux!
  • SnoopacSnoopac Registered Users Posts: 138
    Pretty much. I've always thought this myself actually. The Chaos Dwarfs have an actual logical, sympathetic reason for being evil where was Dark Elves went down the weird degenerate route for no reason at all really.
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 538
    Completely agree. I know this will tick people off but I think Warhammer's Dark Elves are the worst written fantasy race of all time.

    Unlikable in every way and illogical.
  • MooncakeMooncake Registered Users Posts: 607
    edited July 25
    This seems like you used a lot of headcanon to fill in the gaps in order to make the Chaos Dwarfs look less comically evil than they actually are.

    The Dark Elves did not come into existence for no reason, and the slavery of the Chaos Dwarfs is not somehow more logical or less brutal. Also where did you get the idea that Dark Elves have never had to deal with a slave rebellion? They just weren't stupid enough to make slaves that were stronger and smarter than them, so it never posed an existential threat. I have also never heard of this nostalgic desire from Chaos Dwarfs to reunite with their kin, but it was written that the worst tortures are saved for the Dwarfs of the west in Tamurkhan. Doesn't sound like a friendly or nostalgic relationship at all to me.
  • MooncakeMooncake Registered Users Posts: 607
    Also, the Dark Elves have allied with forces of Chaos when it was to their advantage. Not sure if you were aware.
  • HighPriest_AstragothHighPriest_Astragoth Registered Users Posts: 150
    Mooncake said:

    This seems like you used a lot of headcanon to fill in the gaps in order to make the Chaos Dwarfs look less comically evil than they actually are.

    The Dark Elves did not come into existence for no reason, and the slavery of the Chaos Dwarfs is not somehow more logical or less brutal. Also where did you get the idea that Dark Elves have never had to deal with a slave rebellion? They just weren't stupid enough to make slaves that were stronger and smarter than them, so it never posed an existential threat. I have also never heard of this nostalgic desire from Chaos Dwarfs to reunite with their kin, but it was written that the worst tortures are saved for the Dwarfs of the west in Tamurkhan. Doesn't sound like a friendly or nostalgic relationship at all to me.

    "Where was Grimnir when our warriors were dying? Where was Valaya when our children sickened? When we called out for aid in the deep places where we delved, it was not Grungni who answered our call, but mighty Hashut who delivered us in our time of need. Who are the real traitors here? Our kin who abandoned us to madness and death or we who only sought to survive against the forces of Chaos? One day there will be a reckoning and it will be the Sons of the Father of Darkness who will have the victory, not the weak willed spawn of the pathetic Ancestor Gods."

    —Mordian Slagfist, Chaos Dwarf Warrior

    "You may curse us, shun us, deny our existence, but that is no matter. You have done so for centuries. Had you not abandoned us, our vast family would never have been sundered. Thanks to your cowardice, we are strong and mighty, seeing the truths that have long been hidden from Dwarf eyes."

    —Gakroth, Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer

    "We do what we must to survive. We’ve made many concessions and thrown our lots in with the Greenskins, but as their masters, not as slaves. Of course, our values would never have been compromised had it not been for the betrayal of the past."

    —Zhorgrath, Chaos Dwarf Engineer

    On the Black Orcs, they are not smarter then the Dawi, they are however highly intelligent for a Orc, they were a necessary evil for the Chaos Dwarfs.

    I never saw the creation of the Black Orc as such a blunder, the Dawi Zharr had to develop, and fast, if they were to stand any chance of survival, being nestled between Greenskins, Skaven, Chaos, and in time Ogres, they ended up pulling a Russia/China(Communism rapid development) in order to go from mining colony to full ledge Empire that could rival any other. In doing so they did even more harm to the land then all the volcanoes which seemed to have minds of their own, yet they were able to do something that Russia and China failed to do, preserve their citizens lives, where Red Russia and Red China ended up costing the lives of untold millions, the Dawi Zharr were able to keep their sacrifice to a minimum, and pass the reapers toll on over to the slaves, mostly greenskins. In time they needed a new slave, one that could survive in such a hostile environment, and the turnover was a net positive and not a negative. Thus came the creation of the Black Orc, the super slave, one who could survive conditions that few other then the Dawi themselves could, at least for prolonged periods of time.

    Yeah the rebellion nearly costed them their empire, and more importantly their lives, but look at the other options they had, which was extermination from any of their neighbors, or their kin who upon coming into contact with them, swore grudges of vengeance and extermination. To me they had no choice but to make sure the next time a Dawi from outside Hashut's influences saw them, they would see a impenetrable fortress that would cost what was left of the Dawi too much manpower and resources to even fathom the thought. It worked, as in the very end, the end times itself, it took the might of a unified greenskins front, which included the hobgoblins(at least some), as well as the Ogres and their beasts(and gnoblars), with Gork and Mork, and the Maw at the height of all their powers, to finally topple the twice damned Dawi of the Fire Plains. So once again, yes the Black Orcs would lead to the eventual total destruction of the Chaos Dwarfs, but not without a world ending event, and a very unlikely alliance of normally warring factions to do so. Point is, in between A and Z the history of the Black Orcs with the Chaos Dwarfs was a massive gain, and oddly enough, even the Black Orcs who fled after the big rebellion, would eventually come back, on their own free will, to trade, barter, sell slaves and even enlist themselves and their boyz as paid mercenaries to their former slave masters, and even if we remove all of that, its worth mentioning that the bulk of Black Orcs who fled, fled into the Mountains of Mourn, thus creating a buffer zone between the Chaos Dwarf Empire, and the emerging Ogre Kingdoms.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 5,869

    The more I look into the Lore of the Chaos Dwarfs I realize that they take pretty much everything the Dark Elves do but do it in a much more interesting way. Here's what I mean

    1. They have a much more interesting reason to be evil. They were cutoff from the rest of the Dwarf holds and were forced to sign a deal with a minor Chaos God to survive and perform these evil acts to appease him. Their isolation also explains their hatred of the other races as they felt betrayed and abandoned. Compare this to Dark Elves where their evil motivations can be explained by "Lol, sounds fun."
    DE are evil because they are few in number, must fight an ongoing war, live in an inhospitable land and need slave labour and conquest to sustain their economy. They are a mix of Sparta and Nazi Germany, it's not "lol sounds fun".

    They are actually practical when it comes to diplomacy. They have a surprisingly decent number of foreign allies including Ogres, and numerous chaos factions as trade partners and even military allies. Compare this to the Dark Elves who antagonize the others so much it's a miracle they're even still around.
    So are the DE. They have treaties with the Skaven.

    How they approach their cousins is much more interesting. They hate each other, of course, but it comes down more towards a feeling of betrayal and abandonment than simply wanting their own guy to be king. The way some Chaos Dwarfs talk about the normal Dawi passes on the idea that they'd have loved it if things were different, but their cowardice and betrayal lead them to the true path. Compare to the Dark Elves who's motive is "We like Malekith, **** everyone who doesn't."
    It's not that. Elf society (both High and Dark) is very hierarchical, noble families are all tied in an intricate structure of power. Those families that threw their lot with Malekith during the civil war had to leave their land, lost all their riches, their power and their influence in Ulthuan, so naturally they want to return. It's a matter of putting their guy on the throne, but it's also a matter of regaining what they lost.

    Their style of slavery is much more realistic and we see it bite them in the ass a few times. Enslaving orcs certainly wasn't the best tidea, and with the Black Orcs we actually get to see a few slave rebellions which would actually happen in this kind of society. Compare to the Dark Elves were slaves never rebel, which I find HIGHLY unrealistic in the 7,000 years the Druchii have been a thing.
    There are slave revolts all the time. There wasn't a slave *revolution*, because DE didn't enslave a whole race of born warriors like the Black Orcs.

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,952
    edited July 25
    To be honest, the core of the entire Druchii vs Asur conflict is relatively simple in my mind. It's pride and arrogance. Qualities that Elves have expressly shown in apt amount throughout the lore. As much as you can pretend that the Elves are human-like in many aspects they're a presentation of the most snobbish nobility in their very character, driven up to levels that are inhuman. It is pride that is the core of the entire Malekith affair. It is pride that drove him to seek power in the first place. It is pride that makes him persevere even when completely beaten and that pride demands they pay any price in surviving. Therefore, no method is beyond their reach if it means survival and DE have taken to the most barbaric means to survive and slavery is the most effective way. Having a class of people who's rights you don't need to worry about is an effective way of keeping the ones you care about alive and in better condition than others.

    But that's also why DE are as cruel as they are. Their pride propels them to view themselves as better than anyone else. Their pride is inflated indirectly by Chaos, as is mentioned in lore. That pride is alien in its magnitude for it is not exactly normal. Yet it does lend itself to a society that seems broken on a base level, yet somehow arrogantly endures in face of total defeat.

    It is absurd to say they aren't affably evil but the basis of their behavior is definitely elvish.

    Chaos Dwarfs have a much different basis. It's their grudge holding behavior that causes them to feel as betrayed as they feel. Wherein their older gods were supposed to be their guardians, they were left alone during the ravages of Chaos. They were left to die by the Karaz Ankor. Dwarfs do hold grudges against each other, with an example in the lore existing at least in the first edition RPG with Grey Mountains Dwarfs being written into the Book of Grudges by the High King, with them promptly writing their own Book of Grudges and writing up the High King. The way they made piece? They both ripped out the pages that contained those grudges and sent it to the other.

    Chaos Dwarfs operate on the same manner. When faced with utter annihilation, they were left to the die by pretty much everyone that was supposed to be their protectors and allies. It goes even further than normal Dwarfs, in that they considered the entire world to have betrayed them for daring to not come to their rescue. Again, it's not something that actually happened but inflated nature caused by Chaos corruption makes their proclamations of being betrayed by entire world, and holding a grudge against everyone starts to make sense considering the nature of Dwarfs.


    So in my opinion, Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarfs both make some sense when looking at the nature of their "normal" counterparts. They have motivations that arise from corrupted core qualities of their very races. They aren't human but they are twisted versions of their uncorrupted cousins.

    The most inhuman ones are, ironically, humans. As they can be twisted to hell as they are much more pliable than either Dwarfs or Elves. They will set the world on fire without even considering what the hell they're doing, only that the gods told them to. Now, of course, the cause of that corruption varies a lot but the end result is usually the same, that of a Chaos Warrior or Chosen who has lost all of his humanity seeking some sort of ambition or emotion. That's why there are four different gods and four different rough reasons and ways to corrupt humans, and even that isn't entirely all the ways how to go about screwing humans, while Dwarfs and Elves have only one true way to break them.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 3,024
    I am gonna chalk this up to you having a severe lack of knowledge of the Dark Elves and leave it at that.
  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 1,025
    To me the Dark Elves are the logical form of the elves given their absurd levels of arrogance and disdain for other species just taken to the extreme.
    They're the most despicable form of elf, therefore the most elvish elf.

    Chaos Dwarves meanwhile needed a different set of circumstances and motivations to embody their worst excesses.

    I mean I prefer Chaos Dwarves to Dark Elves... but I'd say that's just because I'm speciesist and hate elves.
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,169
    edited July 25
    Dark Elf society is very much based on Sparta. A martial society where every man must be a capable warrior to keep the helot slaves in check. Hell even the 'deathnight' has a real analog for sparta.

    So people do need to stop saying dark elves are badly written or unrealistic as they are quite literally based on a slightly more extreme version of a real society.

    Like all fantasy races warhammer.

    The advantage of Dark Elves is they are evil for selfish reasons; human reasons. Pleasure, power, etc. This makes some sense; people are capable of vile acts given the chance.

    Chaos Dwarves are evil because .... chaos? And everything chaos has to be evil. That's pretty much it.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 2,499
    1. The process of dark elves turning evil was a lot longer and more complicated than most people think, it started before Malekith was even born. I agree that their "current" state of evilness is ridiculous and stupid though.
    2. Somehow, for some reason, dark elves are still able to make allies from time to time. Usually through meeting someone equally self-obsessed and betrayal-willing, so that both sides think they will backstab the other at the best moment.
    3. When talking about "modern" dark elf society, it is important to remember that the entire civilization is a literal warmachine shaped by Malekith and Morathi over thousands of years. It's not that they all collectively decided to like Malekith, but rather that they were all raised to.
    4. This is just false, and easily disprovable. The dark elves some slave rebellions mentioned specifically aswell, particularily when they brought greenskins to Naggroth. The greenskins rebelled and escaped into the wilds, and ever since there have been wild greenskins that the dark elves were unable to wipe out.

  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,672
    edited July 25

    Dark Elf society is very much based on Sparta. A martial society where every man must be a capable warrior to keep the helot slaves in check. Hell even the 'deathnight' has a real analog for sparta.

    So people do need to stop saying dark elves are badly written or unrealistic as they are quite literally based on a slightly more extreme version of a real society.

    Like all fantasy races warhammer.

    The advantage of Dark Elves is they are evil for selfish reasons; human reasons. Pleasure, power, etc. This makes some sense; people are capable of vile acts given the chance.

    Chaos Dwarves are evil because .... chaos? And everything chaos has to be evil. That's pretty much it.

    A few points about Sparta, after having listened to a Course by Prof. Kenneth W. Harl on the Peleponnesian Wars:

    1) Athens and Sparta were overall more alike than unalike.

    2) most of what we know about Sparta has been written by non-Spartans with an agenda, either "Sparta is awesome!" or "Sparta sucks" for the most part.

    3) The "Spartan Mirage": apparently not only today, but already back then there were inaccurate pictures of Spartan Society. Prof. Harl suggests that part of this might've been from an actual Spartan effort for disinformation in the rest of the Hellenic world. This probably includes the whole "Secret Police to watch the Helots" etc. stuff.

    He also mentions cases where Helots were elevated to Periokoi. Something not happening in DE society.

    4) The simple fact taht, despite modern historians liking to portray Sparta as a regressive society with little imaginations, authoritarian and overall dumber and worse than Athens (which many of them, at least by the time of the lecture, like to portray as beacon of progress etc. in the vein of the US, UK whatever is the trend of the day). Despite Athenai being THE greek naval power, THEY WON THE **** WAR. And no, they weren't bankrolled by Persians through the whole war, nor was even later on most of their stuff paid by the Persians.



    And in regards of DE having allies: Yeah, and in TT they and the Skaven have a rule to represent how backstab by they are.

    I never saw the creation of the Black Orc as such a blunder, the Dawi Zharr had to develop, and fast, if they were to stand any chance of survival

    But by the time they created the Black Orcs they already had established their holdings. They created the BO because they wanted better, more organized slaves without thinking through that better, stronger, more intelligent and more organized slaves might put 2 and 2 together and, well, organize... a Slave Rebellion.
    Post edited by TheGuardianOfMetal on
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN! TOTAL WAR TROY FOR ONE YEAR EXCLUSIVELY ON THE EPIC GAMES STORE!"

    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • afverrallafverrall Registered Users Posts: 163
    edited July 25
    The situation is completely different dark elves were on the end of a lost civil war and driven to a frozen deadland where they became indoctrinated by a religion devoted to murder guided by the most powerful chaos cultist alive and an evil genius. The chaos dwarves were isolated by circumstance and made a deal with the devil which is arguably more sympathetic but really they are a faction with very little impact on the rest of the world other than the creation of black orcs they're just a bunch of angry capitalists that sell arms to chaos warriors. The dwarfs reaction to their kins blight is an excellent indication that the dwarves are a very arrogant, selfish and hypocritical race behind any pretence of duty or honour.

    The dark elves destroyed both the dwarven and high elven empires with excellent subterfuge, consistently plays the chaos factions like a fiddle and frequently uses the short lifespan and greed of the human races to fufill his goals at no point has he declared total war and tried to take over anything but ulthan.

    The chaos dwarfs made a new species of orc and failed to attract enough attention for an official army book.

    The op just prefers dwarfs and wanted to through in a few cheap shots without actually reading anything about the dark elves.

    Rant over

    P.s.
    How can a dwarf fan possibly accuse any other race of excessive pride
  • ArsenicArsenic Registered Users Posts: 5,743
    Wasn't it said in one of the High Elf armybooks that it was Chaos behind the Druchii turning from bitter, battle hardened people into cruel degenerates, as Chaos warps Elven minds rather than bodies?

    Chaos turned their bitterness into cruelty, the Asur's pride into arrogance, and the Asrai's isolationism into xenphobia.

    That makes a bit more sense, and explains away some of the more dubious changes in character of the Helfs and Welfs too.
    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • ThomassiniThomassini Registered Users Posts: 743

    I am gonna chalk this up to you having a severe lack of knowledge of the Dark Elves and leave it at that.

    Lol.

    Dark Elves are bad writing at best, ridiculous and disgusting exaggeration at worst.

    There is no way to sustain their civilization in Naggaroth. Not if they slaughter each other regularly for the faintest of reasons.

    It’s the only element of Warhammer Fantasy that seriously challenges “suspense of disbelief”, and in my case manages to shatter it, in an otherwise quite cohesive if over-the-top universe. It’s a shame because their army and aesthetics are quite interesting.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 2,499

    I am gonna chalk this up to you having a severe lack of knowledge of the Dark Elves and leave it at that.

    Lol.

    Dark Elves are bad writing at best, ridiculous and disgusting exaggeration at worst.

    There is no way to sustain their civilization in Naggaroth. Not if they slaughter each other regularly for the faintest of reasons.

    It’s the only element of Warhammer Fantasy that seriously challenges “suspense of disbelief”, and in my case manages to shatter it, in an otherwise quite cohesive if over-the-top universe. It’s a shame because their army and aesthetics are quite interesting.
    There is a lot of bad writing regarding the dark elves. However, the specific points that OP brought up are misleading or outright false, indicating that they do have a poor understanding of the dark elves. Someone can use bad or wrong arguments to support a correct conclusion.
  • PoorManatee6197PoorManatee6197 Registered Users Posts: 800
    Its been a while since I read the lore of the dark elves but here I go (I never though I would see myself defending the elves haha):

    Before the first coming of chaos the elves didn't really know anything about war, so when the demons attacked they werent prepared. Luckily Aenarion appeared and saved the day, but it wasnt enought and he was forced to take the sword of Khaine and be "possesed" by him, this made him a war machine capable of slaughtering thousands of demons but at the same time he couldnt really feel love or any other emotion outside of killing anymore, and this corruption also affected his followers. He made his court in Nagarythe and the inhabitants became his army. The other kingdoms fought too obviously but Nagarythe was 100% militarised to defend Ulthuan. During this time the situation was desperate and cults of pleasure started appearing in Nagarythe because "We will probably die soon anyway so why not have some fun?".

    So when the war finally ended Ulthuan had a kingdom full of warriors in a time of peace. They didnt know any better so they dedicated to continue and expand the cults of pleasure (Morathi helped a lot with this). Add to this that Malekith wasnt chosen as the next phoenix king, they were the ones that gave their lives to deffend Ulthuan and now they felt betrayed.

    So this is how a depraved, militaristic and resentful against Ulthuan society was born. Then of course the sundering happened and the dark elves were forced to move to Naggaroth, where they didnt have the other kingdoms of Ulthuan to supply them with food and other basic goods so they created a slave based economy.


    As you can see they have their reasons to be evil too, they also feel betrayed by their former brothers and are servants of a cruel god. Its not just because "Lol, sounds fun".
    #MakeDwarfsGreatAgain Josef Bugman, Thorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson, Gotrek Gurnisson, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseeker, Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon, proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn, Karag Agrilwutraz, Silver Pinacle, Karag Dum, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.


    Those all missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!
  • PoorManatee6197PoorManatee6197 Registered Users Posts: 800

    Even dawi that can barely be called such are better then knife ear, tbh I have no idea why chaos dwarfs were kicked around like they were, very interesting aesthetics, weapons and desigh, I'd love to read a book about the dwarfs and the chaos dwarfs fighting, but what I find interesting is that Norse dwarfs have a similar thing, 3 kinds of dwarf and elf, "good", evil and your just trying to get people to stay away from them

    Norse dwarfs arent that isolationist, or at least not more than normal dwarfs. They had good relations with Norscans before they fell to chaos, they constructed a subterranean pass to the sea of claws and used it to aid kislev during the great war against chaos, they welcomed thorgrim and were more than happy for making contact again with the karaz ankor. Their isolation comes from circunstance more than anything, they live in a very bad location to maintain contact with other order races.
    #MakeDwarfsGreatAgain Josef Bugman, Thorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson, Gotrek Gurnisson, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseeker, Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon, proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn, Karag Agrilwutraz, Silver Pinacle, Karag Dum, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.


    Those all missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!
  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 656

    Even dawi that can barely be called such are better then knife ear, tbh I have no idea why chaos dwarfs were kicked around like they were, very interesting aesthetics, weapons and desigh, I'd love to read a book about the dwarfs and the chaos dwarfs fighting, but what I find interesting is that Norse dwarfs have a similar thing, 3 kinds of dwarf and elf, "good", evil and your just trying to get people to stay away from them

    Norse dwarfs arent that isolationist, or at least not more than normal dwarfs. They had good relations with Norscans before they fell to chaos, they constructed a subterranean pass to the sea of claws and used it to aid kislev during the great war against chaos, they welcomed thorgrim and were more than happy for making contact again with the karaz ankor. Their isolation comes from circunstance more than anything, they live in a very bad location to maintain contact with other order races.
    Yes, but if you were to notice the pattern, all dwarfs would love nothing more then to just seal off there holds and mine and make beer, that's what the dwarfs want, and so the norse dwarfs want everything around them to just **** off, because that's the best case scenario for them
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Registered Users Posts: 1,255

    The more I look into the Lore of the Chaos Dwarfs I realize that they take pretty much everything the Dark Elves do but do it in a much more interesting way. Here's what I mean

    1. They have a much more interesting reason to be evil. They were cutoff from the rest of the Dwarf holds and were forced to sign a deal with a minor Chaos God to survive and perform these evil acts to appease him. Their isolation also explains their hatred of the other races as they felt betrayed and abandoned. Compare this to Dark Elves where their evil motivations can be explained by "Lol, sounds fun."
    2. They are actually practical when it comes to diplomacy. They have a surprisingly decent number of foreign allies including Ogres, and numerous chaos factions as trade partners and even military allies. Compare this to the Dark Elves who antagonize the others so much it's a miracle they're even still around.
    3. How they approach their cousins is much more interesting. They hate each other, of course, but it comes down more towards a feeling of betrayal and abandonment than simply wanting their own guy to be king. The way some Chaos Dwarfs talk about the normal Dawi passes on the idea that they'd have loved it if things were different, but their cowardice and betrayal lead them to the true path. Compare to the Dark Elves who's motive is "We like Malekith, **** everyone who doesn't."
    4. Their style of slavery is much more realistic and we see it bite them in the ass a few times. Enslaving orcs certainly wasn't the best tidea, and with the Black Orcs we actually get to see a few slave rebellions which would actually happen in this kind of society. Compare to the Dark Elves were slaves never rebel, which I find HIGHLY unrealistic in the 7,000 years the Druchii have been a thing.

    WTF did I just read?

    Did you read literally any of the Dark Elf lore before making this post?
  • PaulicusPaulicus Registered Users Posts: 154

    I am gonna chalk this up to you having a severe lack of knowledge of the Dark Elves and leave it at that.

    Lol.

    Dark Elves are bad writing at best, ridiculous and disgusting exaggeration at worst.

    There is no way to sustain their civilization in Naggaroth. Not if they slaughter each other regularly for the faintest of reasons.

    It’s the only element of Warhammer Fantasy that seriously challenges “suspense of disbelief”, and in my case manages to shatter it, in an otherwise quite cohesive if over-the-top universe. It’s a shame because their army and aesthetics are quite interesting.
    That's the only one? XD Dude warhammer is one of the most ridiculous fantasy settings there is.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,059
    Xenos7 said:

    So are the DE. They have treaties with the Skaven.

    Got a citation for that? I keep seeing this claim being made, but nobody's ever given a primary source.

    That said, the Dark Elves do have some ability to form alliances or otherwise get other races to work with them. They've allied with Chaos forces more than once, they've shipped greenskins to the New World in order to use them against the High Elves (it's unclear whether they were slave warriors or a case of "we'll take you somewhere where you can have a good fight" - either way, it backfired on the Dark Elves and, while not represented in TWW, according to the fluff there are greenskin tribes that remain in Naggaroth since which are problems for the Dark Elves). Morathi's worked with Luthor Harkon against the Lizardmen (IIRC, that's part of how Luthor got his mind broken in the first place), and while it's been removed from canon due to Games Workship changing the Tomb Kings fluff, in 4E there were joint slave raids performed by Black Arks and Settra's fleet.

    Plus, in the 8E book, it's indicated that the Dark Elves are about as good at playing the influence game as the High Elves - it's just that when it comes to the Order races, the High Elves have a head start and the leaders of the various races see the Asur as more trustworthy than the Druchii. So the Druchii haven't managed to win over any heads of state of major Order nations, but they do have a certain amount of success in winning over ambitious lesser nobles to undermine them.

    The main distinction is that High Elves tend to look to the long term when it comes to alliances. Dark Elves tend to look more towards short-term pacts for specific goals. Part of this is because for all that all elves believe themselves to be better than anyone else, High Elves have a bit more respect for "lesser races" than Dark Elves do, so they're more inclined to regard alliances as a worthwhile long-term investment and to regard agreements with non-Elves to be something that should be honoured. Another part, however, is probably a reflection of who their potential allies are - while Dark Elves and Skaven had the "alliances can even start to fall apart mid-battle" rule in 8E, alliances with most Destruction and even Unaligned races can naturally be expected to be unstable in the long term. With Order races mostly siding with the Asur (even Dwarfs in the present day seem to regard the High Elves as being at least marginally better than Dark Elves), the best chances for the Dark Elves to form a stable alliance would probably be Tomb Kings, Ogres, or some of the more trustworthy vampires (by vampire standards, anyway).

    A treaty between Dark Elves and Skaven is a priori reasonable - the two have similar interests that can be propelled through cooperation and in the canon timeline did not come into conflict over territory or other resources until the End Times. However, any such agreement could only be expected for as long as it is convenient for both sides and not a day after it becomes advantageous for one side to betray the other. Dark Elves would not consider ratmen to be worthy of honouring a bargain with, and Skaven can't even be trusted to hold to an agreement even with other Skaven. Like I said, though, thus far nobody's provided a source for the idea that such a treaty exists. From the army books, in fact, I don't think there's any reference to them ever coming into contact at all.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,952
    edited July 26
    Draxynnic said:

    Morathi's worked with Luthor Harkon against the Lizardmen (IIRC, that's part of how Luthor got his mind broken in the first place)

    There's actually a mention of Harkon working with DE in the LM armybook but it was more recent, like 24th century or so, so it's much later than the time his mind was broken. Dunno where you read that Morathi in particular worked with Harkon, or if these two events are one and same at all. Nah, those are the same event, just in two different armybooks retelling of history. That event is much later from when Harkon had his mind broken.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • DarthEnderXDarthEnderX Registered Users Posts: 40
    edited July 26
    When it comes to the quality of their portrayal as a race of evil slavers, I feel like the Chaos Dwarves have the benefit of actually, ya know, living around a bunch of suitable slave races.
  • Unknown6203Unknown6203 Registered Users Posts: 1,313
    edited July 26
    I never liked Dark Elves.... they seem... unnecessary I would have been happy if they left it at Wood-elves and High Elves. Not just here in other fantasy works, is very similar.

    Like he said Chaos Dwarfs are just bitter after being left alone and having to survive.

    They just don't make sense, almost like Skaven. if you read real history the fall of the great empires was done by inner squabbling and inside problems. For the Skaven, I get it there so numerous doesn't even matter. But Dark Elves who are few in numbers wouldn't survive yet they are a nation who constantly squabbles and kills each other.... the Slaves don't hold positions at all, which is dumb even on history Slaves were used as cannon fodders Dark Elves being few in number which such a vast territory don't use them like that bu the Chaos Dwarfs do and like the OP said they were better written.

    Even the size of their Empire doesn't make sense... it's huge for a race without Soldier/Slaves like the Chaos Dwarfs is impossible to keep... Nargaroth is so big if I were at GW o would invent a new race and place it there too, remnants of the first settlers(new nonhuman race) of Naggatoth, Settled on the west coast.

    To me, Dark Elves are like Spartans, Spartans had lots of rebellions that one of the reasons they didn't survive as long in power as with other Greeks.

    Even in Campaign, I forget and I play them as Hight Elves....Many argue of the Dark Elves story I just read it, it took me almost an hour... and I must say what he said... In a nutshell, Dark Elves were basically just spoiled horny people who decided to rebel because they like their weird pleasure Cults (horny swinger clubs).... It's clear the DE was inspired somewhat by dominatrix...

    For those who don't know Warhammer: Fantasy is coming back is now as Warhammer: Old World Is returning I hope they rewrite the Dark Elves. Brettonia too the older books, where they were just and good was even a peasant would raise as a Knight.

    I also hope in this interaction they make the Good Gods more powerful.... they were kind of useless.
    Post edited by Unknown6203 on
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,672



    Even the size of their Empire doesn't make sense... it's huge for a race without Soldier/Slaves like the Chaos Dwarfs is impossible to keep... Nargaroth is so big if I were at GW o would invent a new race and place it there too, remnants of the first settlers(new nonhuman race) of Naggatoth, Settled on the west coast.

    To me, Dark Elves are like Spartans, Spartans had lots of rebellions that one of the reasons they didn't survive as long in power as with other Greeks./blockquote>

    ... Sparta was one of the big powers in Greece, only by the time of Alexander that really changed. And then the other Greek States weren't independent anymore.

    And the other Greek States also had a lot of slaves, and they also had slave revolts.

    Most Druchii are living in the stranded Black Arks, and then there are smaller villages etc. dotted around. Other beings living there is a tonload of Beastmen...

    While the Druchii are internally squabbling and backstabbing, Malekith (and Hellebron and Morathi) keep them so far in line taht their squabbling doesn't threaten all of Naggaroth.

    I also hope in this interaction they make the Good Gods more powerful.... they were kind of useless.

    Yeah, Taal and Co. just kicked in Nurgle's face in the ET... and theN GW forgot about them...
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN! TOTAL WAR TROY FOR ONE YEAR EXCLUSIVELY ON THE EPIC GAMES STORE!"

    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
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