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Ulthuan's Outer Ring Should Be Under Hostile Control

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  • VoxofWarVoxofWar Member Registered Users Posts: 279
    As a High Elf player ... I am torn a bit.

    Sure, challenge is alright. But to me, the fun of Helves is to set sail and save the Dwarfs from their own incompetence and humans from their weakness...

    But some more battles for Ulthuan, sure.

    Spawning armies ... well, it is a bit cheap mechanic. What I would like though, if spawning armies it is ... it should be tied to events, quests popping up.

    A norscan raid will attack Yvresse in xturns ... enough time to get an army, or recruit some emergency units, or get some walls ... and then not have that spawn running around making you chaise it ... give us siege defences...far too few anyway
  • manpersalmanpersal Registered Users Posts: 700
    VoxofWar said:

    As a High Elf player ... I am torn a bit.

    Sure, challenge is alright. But to me, the fun of Helves is to set sail and save the Dwarfs from their own incompetence and humans from their weakness...

    But some more battles for Ulthuan, sure.

    Spawning armies ... well, it is a bit cheap mechanic. What I would like though, if spawning armies it is ... it should be tied to events, quests popping up.

    A norscan raid will attack Yvresse in xturns ... enough time to get an army, or recruit some emergency units, or get some walls ... and then not have that spawn running around making you chaise it ... give us siege defences...far too few anyway

    See my post about high elf '"crusades", I think it would be a balanced way to get a few more battles in Ulthuan and anywhere else.

    And another thing.... are seeing the order races destroyed? Because I still get ordertide always, I thought that it was because I'm playing a lot if high elves and mayne it somewhat influences the outcome im other parts of the world.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 3,052
    Having the fastest replenishment in the game along with tons of healing is even a bigger factor to make their campiagns yawnfest than the secure island.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,202
    edited August 16
    I’m honestly okay with some start positions being boring and easy. The game does NEED easy/tutorial start positions in order to cater to newer/casual players. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    High Elf challenges should more come from moving High Elves off the island (Teclis/Imrik/etc.) Like if you want to play as High Elves, and want a more challenging experience.... just don’t play on the donut.

    I do generally agree that the LATE game can/should be made more challenging/interesting with scripted events and more polish to the Chaos Invasion.

    But starting position wise, I’m okay with leaving the donut as it is. I know that means Tyrion might not be enjoyable to play for me personally. But Tyrion-ish starts are necessary for others as a diving board into the series.

    I’ve read countless threads of brand new players to the ALREADY asking for help on a Tyrion campaign ‘as is’. I can’t imagine how much more of a turn off that might be if Tyrion’s campaign was transformed into Wulfharts or Skarsnik’s all of a sudden, just to please the l33t crowd.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,363
    Valkaar said:

    I’m honestly okay with some start positions being boring and easy. The game does NEED easy/tutorial start positions in order to cater to newer/casual players. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    You can turn any start boring and easy by selecting easy difficulty. I don't see any reason for any start to be boring and easy no matter what. Why should people who want to play Tyrion or Alarielle or Eltharion never have a chance of actually getting some excitement?

  • PTreePTree Registered Users Posts: 641
    I never understand why everyone complains about HE's, and neglects the DAWI TIDE
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,810
    PTree said:

    I never understand why everyone complains about HE's, and neglects the DAWI TIDE

    The Dawi tide was never neglected. It's just been curbed in the recent patches by Eshin and Greenskins now.

    The HE tide has also been partially dealt with by the cult of pleasure but that's a coin flip at this stage and just delays it if Morathi loses.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 14,353
    I think a different Confederation system would be an interesting idea. I personally don't like controlling the whole island, and if you were incentivized to let the various kingdoms flourish on their own then Alarielle's campaign would be more interesting, as would Eltharion's (so long as Defensive and Military Alliances are fixed).

    Alternatively, it might be interesting to see your enemies confederate based on the size of their enemies. Meaning if you start confederating, so do they.
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  • Xerxes52Xerxes52 Registered Users Posts: 365

    PTree said:

    I never understand why everyone complains about HE's, and neglects the DAWI TIDE

    The Dawi tide was never neglected. It's just been curbed in the recent patches by Eshin and Greenskins now.

    The HE tide has also been partially dealt with by the cult of pleasure but that's a coin flip at this stage and just delays it if Morathi loses.
    In my experience it depends on how well Morathi does against Alith Anar. If she can defeat Ss'ildra Tor and kill off Nagarythe early, the way is clear for her to hit Tiranoc and begin her invasion. If Nagarythe wins the early fights though, she runs out of steam and can't unite her starting province. Tiranoc then invades instead and she's stuck in Slaanesh's Triangle between Alith Anar and Surthara Bel-Kec. Doesn't go well after that.
  • MarkerMarker Registered Users Posts: 1,358
    edited August 17
    in my last campaign as GS, I confederated Grom and the HE all declared war and got stationary somehow, then got crushed by the DE and the DE took more than half of the ME map. its already changing along the way, the DE will get another Lord pack so.
    There should be a campaign for everybody so its good as it is for people who like diplomacy and like to turtle.
    If u want a High elf campaign contested u can play Tecles, imrik or even the Grim in the badlands.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,363
    edited August 17
    Marker said:

    in my last campaign as GS, I confederated Grom and the HE all declared war and got stationary somehow, then got crushed by the DE and the DE took more than half of the ME map. its already changing along the way, the DE will get another Lord pack so.
    There should be a campaign for everybody so its good as it is for people who like diplomacy and like to turtle.
    If u want a High elf campaign contested u can play Tecles, imrik or even the Grim in the badlands.

    There's no campaign for people who'd like to play an Ulthuan faction without getting bored to tears, so you're already contradicting yourself.

    No really, people need to stop making this argument that some starts should simply be boring. Do people play games to bore themselves? No, they should all have the potential for excitement. Why should Tyrion be forever be settled with the "lame" start?

    Really, people who want to play it safe can play on easy, which turns ALL CAMPAIGNS safe. There's no need to ensure certain starts are devoid of adventure in any and all cases.

  • Lin_HuichiLin_Huichi Registered Users Posts: 449
    Tyrion's start is far from boring. Easy, yes but that doesnt make his campaign boring. As a new player you get to learn the basics with an easy faction but as a veteran the quick start means you can go elsewhere fast if you want. I've been to Skavenblight, Sylvania and Lustria as Eataine instead of conquering the island for the nth time.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,363

    Tyrion's start is far from boring. Easy, yes but that doesnt make his campaign boring. As a new player you get to learn the basics with an easy faction but as a veteran the quick start means you can go elsewhere fast if you want. I've been to Skavenblight, Sylvania and Lustria as Eataine instead of conquering the island for the nth time.

    If you are never are under pressure, it's boring and that's textbook Ulthuan.

  • manpersalmanpersal Registered Users Posts: 700

    Marker said:

    in my last campaign as GS, I confederated Grom and the HE all declared war and got stationary somehow, then got crushed by the DE and the DE took more than half of the ME map. its already changing along the way, the DE will get another Lord pack so.
    There should be a campaign for everybody so its good as it is for people who like diplomacy and like to turtle.
    If u want a High elf campaign contested u can play Tecles, imrik or even the Grim in the badlands.

    There's no campaign for people who'd like to play an Ulthuan faction without getting bored to tears, so you're already contradicting yourself.

    No really, people need to stop making this argument that some starts should simply be boring. Do people play games to bore themselves? No, they should all have the potential for excitement. Why should Tyrion be forever be settled with the "lame" start?

    Really, people who want to play it safe can play on easy, which turns ALL CAMPAIGNS safe. There's no need to ensure certain starts are devoid of adventure in any and all cases.
    I enjoy Ulthuan starts, especially in ME, the early game is easy but after that you can send armies in every direction and no one is forcing you to strike with all your force at a single spot, I like to send 1/2 armies to Naggaroth, another one to badlands/southlands and another to Lustria. I find it very fun, you'll be fighting in inferiority most of the times and if you lose an elite units it will be relatively hard to replace.
  • manpersalmanpersal Registered Users Posts: 700

    Tyrion's start is far from boring. Easy, yes but that doesnt make his campaign boring. As a new player you get to learn the basics with an easy faction but as a veteran the quick start means you can go elsewhere fast if you want. I've been to Skavenblight, Sylvania and Lustria as Eataine instead of conquering the island for the nth time.

    If you are never are under pressure, it's boring and that's textbook Ulthuan.
    That's very relative. Maybe you're not in danger to lose the campaign, but if you've made interesting conquests -say the Black Pyramid, Sartosa, the Awakening..
    - you'll want to keep them and will try to hold them, you won't say "I've lost my 'mediterranean army', well I'm gonna forget about that front", you will assemble whatever you can to protect the more important places and send help from Ulthuan as fast as possible.

    It can happen too, that while you try to get a foothold somewhere else, some dark elf overruns moat of Ulthuan and you'll have to make a choice, as it usually happens when playing Eltharion. Keeping Yvresse is a choice.

  • Lin_HuichiLin_Huichi Registered Users Posts: 449

    Tyrion's start is far from boring. Easy, yes but that doesnt make his campaign boring. As a new player you get to learn the basics with an easy faction but as a veteran the quick start means you can go elsewhere fast if you want. I've been to Skavenblight, Sylvania and Lustria as Eataine instead of conquering the island for the nth time.

    If you are never are under pressure, it's boring and that's textbook Ulthuan.
    Ulthuan is under pressure, it's just very hard to invade, and easy to defend. CA have put a lot more threats on Ulthuan, Vampire coast Greenskins etc, but High Elves are a very strong race. Lots of them together is bound to be powerful but if you want a hard start as High Elves play Imrik or Teclis. You can turn the difficulty down for Imrik but his easy campaign is still probably harder than Hard Tyrion. I like how it differentiates LLs gameplay more, like Gor Rok vs Tehen, or Ikit vs Skrolk.

    It also helps them since Ulthuan is so much smaller than the other continents, making it easier to conquer.

  • CountTalabeclandCountTalabecland Registered Users Posts: 347
    Its an island that no one can find except elves who already know where it is.

    Kind of tough to make much of that lore. The Dark Elfs dont even have a toe hold in the lore but an ongoing is pretty easy to implement as CA did.

    Maybe a set civil war over Chaos/Khaine Cults would be a good mechanic to make a toss up of which lords rebel and try to take over for themselves rather than all of the sudden everyone is invading Ulthuan all the time.
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Registered Users Posts: 1,034

    Valkaar said:

    I’m honestly okay with some start positions being boring and easy. The game does NEED easy/tutorial start positions in order to cater to newer/casual players. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    You can turn any start boring and easy by selecting easy difficulty. I don't see any reason for any start to be boring and easy no matter what. Why should people who want to play Tyrion or Alarielle or Eltharion never have a chance of actually getting some excitement?
    Unless you read up on all the various cheese strats, and then practice how to carry them out, then Tyrion, Alarielle, and Eltharion on legendary are definitely rather exciting. Even with the cheese, those campaigns are not exactly easy.

    If you think they're easy then start doing some Youtube vids of how easy they really are. You'll have random spawns when you don't need them, Noctilus will drop by when you're on the wrong side of the island, and quite a lot of delves will pay a visit. And just when you think, you've got things handled, you get shredded by Eltharion.

    If you know exactly what you're doing then there's a good chance of handling most of these without too much frustration. Unlike some of the other starts where the degree of starting frustration is more or less random luck. Is that what you want every start to be? Random chance whether it is fairly smooth or electrodes-on-nuts levels of grief?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,363

    Valkaar said:

    I’m honestly okay with some start positions being boring and easy. The game does NEED easy/tutorial start positions in order to cater to newer/casual players. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    You can turn any start boring and easy by selecting easy difficulty. I don't see any reason for any start to be boring and easy no matter what. Why should people who want to play Tyrion or Alarielle or Eltharion never have a chance of actually getting some excitement?
    Unless you read up on all the various cheese strats, and then practice how to carry them out, then Tyrion, Alarielle, and Eltharion on legendary are definitely rather exciting. Even with the cheese, those campaigns are not exactly easy.
    Nope, wrong. Don't try telling stories to someone who already tried that. I know better.

    Snoozefests, all of them, even if you just play them without cheese, HE are that overtuned and Ulthuan that secure a start. Eltharion on Vortex for sure was one of the biggest disappointments of the last DLC.


  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Registered Users Posts: 1,034

    Valkaar said:

    I’m honestly okay with some start positions being boring and easy. The game does NEED easy/tutorial start positions in order to cater to newer/casual players. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    You can turn any start boring and easy by selecting easy difficulty. I don't see any reason for any start to be boring and easy no matter what. Why should people who want to play Tyrion or Alarielle or Eltharion never have a chance of actually getting some excitement?
    Unless you read up on all the various cheese strats, and then practice how to carry them out, then Tyrion, Alarielle, and Eltharion on legendary are definitely rather exciting. Even with the cheese, those campaigns are not exactly easy.
    Nope, wrong. Don't try telling stories to someone who already tried that. I know better.

    Snoozefests, all of them, even if you just play them without cheese, HE are that overtuned and Ulthuan that secure a start. Eltharion on Vortex for sure was one of the biggest disappointments of the last DLC.

    Speaking of "telling stories"... Then again, maybe it really is that easy on Vortex. I don't play the Vortex map, never have, so I wouldn't know. As far as legendary campaigns on ME are concerned, those Ulthuan starts are less punishing of mistakes, but overall I would not use the word "easy" to describe them.

    And you're saying that you can do it trivially without any kind of cheese? Just regular spearmen and white lions and maybe a few sea guards, maybe some silver helms? No archer spam and no AI abuse, corner camping, ammo waste, hero blobbing, and of course no spamming entrepreneur heroes either? And the AI never spams stacks at you, never takes advantage of that disabled fog of war, and isn't even all that hostile? That sounds truly remarkable. You really should stream that on YT.
  • ThomassiniThomassini Registered Users Posts: 745

    Valkaar said:

    I’m honestly okay with some start positions being boring and easy. The game does NEED easy/tutorial start positions in order to cater to newer/casual players. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    You can turn any start boring and easy by selecting easy difficulty. I don't see any reason for any start to be boring and easy no matter what. Why should people who want to play Tyrion or Alarielle or Eltharion never have a chance of actually getting some excitement?
    Unless you read up on all the various cheese strats, and then practice how to carry them out, then Tyrion, Alarielle, and Eltharion on legendary are definitely rather exciting. Even with the cheese, those campaigns are not exactly easy.
    Nope, wrong. Don't try telling stories to someone who already tried that. I know better.

    Snoozefests, all of them, even if you just play them without cheese, HE are that overtuned and Ulthuan that secure a start. Eltharion on Vortex for sure was one of the biggest disappointments of the last DLC.

    Speaking of "telling stories"... Then again, maybe it really is that easy on Vortex. I don't play the Vortex map, never have, so I wouldn't know. As far as legendary campaigns on ME are concerned, those Ulthuan starts are less punishing of mistakes, but overall I would not use the word "easy" to describe them.

    And you're saying that you can do it trivially without any kind of cheese? Just regular spearmen and white lions and maybe a few sea guards, maybe some silver helms? No archer spam and no AI abuse, corner camping, ammo waste, hero blobbing, and of course no spamming entrepreneur heroes either? And the AI never spams stacks at you, never takes advantage of that disabled fog of war, and isn't even all that hostile? That sounds truly remarkable. You really should stream that on YT.
    Why would anyone shoot themselves in a foot and recruit the worst unit available to HE in campaign (White Lions - the infantry)?

    Do you go “only war wagons” with Empire, because Greatswords and Demigryphs are “cheese”?

    It’s a nonsensical argument.

    “Archer spam“ btw (with some infantry support) is how HE should be played, both loreful and efficient. Note that I don’t say “sisters spam”, but of course that is the most efficient strategy available to HE.

    Eltharion on Vortex for sure was one of the biggest disappointments of the last DLC.

    Arguably the worst campaign in TWW to date. No enemies, overtuned mechanics and forcing the player to wander around the map for 20-30 turns each time. It’s anti-fun in the purest form.
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Registered Users Posts: 1,034

    Valkaar said:

    I’m honestly okay with some start positions being boring and easy. The game does NEED easy/tutorial start positions in order to cater to newer/casual players. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    You can turn any start boring and easy by selecting easy difficulty. I don't see any reason for any start to be boring and easy no matter what. Why should people who want to play Tyrion or Alarielle or Eltharion never have a chance of actually getting some excitement?
    Unless you read up on all the various cheese strats, and then practice how to carry them out, then Tyrion, Alarielle, and Eltharion on legendary are definitely rather exciting. Even with the cheese, those campaigns are not exactly easy.
    Nope, wrong. Don't try telling stories to someone who already tried that. I know better.

    Snoozefests, all of them, even if you just play them without cheese, HE are that overtuned and Ulthuan that secure a start. Eltharion on Vortex for sure was one of the biggest disappointments of the last DLC.

    Speaking of "telling stories"... Then again, maybe it really is that easy on Vortex. I don't play the Vortex map, never have, so I wouldn't know. As far as legendary campaigns on ME are concerned, those Ulthuan starts are less punishing of mistakes, but overall I would not use the word "easy" to describe them.

    And you're saying that you can do it trivially without any kind of cheese? Just regular spearmen and white lions and maybe a few sea guards, maybe some silver helms? No archer spam and no AI abuse, corner camping, ammo waste, hero blobbing, and of course no spamming entrepreneur heroes either? And the AI never spams stacks at you, never takes advantage of that disabled fog of war, and isn't even all that hostile? That sounds truly remarkable. You really should stream that on YT.
    Why would anyone shoot themselves in a foot and recruit the worst unit available to HE in campaign (White Lions - the infantry)?

    Do you go “only war wagons” with Empire, because Greatswords and Demigryphs are “cheese”?

    It’s a nonsensical argument.

    “Archer spam“ btw (with some infantry support) is how HE should be played, both loreful and efficient. Note that I don’t say “sisters spam”, but of course that is the most efficient strategy available to HE.

    Eltharion on Vortex for sure was one of the biggest disappointments of the last DLC.

    Arguably the worst campaign in TWW to date. No enemies, overtuned mechanics and forcing the player to wander around the map for 20-30 turns each time. It’s anti-fun in the purest form.
    I'm not the one saying that Ulthuan starts are easy on legendary difficulty, am I?

    And if you're going mostly archers then you're spamming a missile unit and that is arguably cheese. You need a lot of regular infantry and some cavalry in a "balanced" and "proper" army, or so I'm told. Such a composition isn't a problem on easy difficulty either, so if Ulthuan starts on legendary are in fact easy then surely that kind of army composition should be fine?
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 174
    Ulthuan is fine. Make your own mod or something and play it. You are not **** center of universe. And now... Cry me a river.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 6,410

    Valkaar said:

    I’m honestly okay with some start positions being boring and easy. The game does NEED easy/tutorial start positions in order to cater to newer/casual players. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    You can turn any start boring and easy by selecting easy difficulty. I don't see any reason for any start to be boring and easy no matter what. Why should people who want to play Tyrion or Alarielle or Eltharion never have a chance of actually getting some excitement?
    Unless you read up on all the various cheese strats, and then practice how to carry them out, then Tyrion, Alarielle, and Eltharion on legendary are definitely rather exciting. Even with the cheese, those campaigns are not exactly easy.
    Nope, wrong. Don't try telling stories to someone who already tried that. I know better.

    Snoozefests, all of them, even if you just play them without cheese, HE are that overtuned and Ulthuan that secure a start. Eltharion on Vortex for sure was one of the biggest disappointments of the last DLC.

    Speaking of "telling stories"... Then again, maybe it really is that easy on Vortex. I don't play the Vortex map, never have, so I wouldn't know. As far as legendary campaigns on ME are concerned, those Ulthuan starts are less punishing of mistakes, but overall I would not use the word "easy" to describe them.

    And you're saying that you can do it trivially without any kind of cheese? Just regular spearmen and white lions and maybe a few sea guards, maybe some silver helms? No archer spam and no AI abuse, corner camping, ammo waste, hero blobbing, and of course no spamming entrepreneur heroes either? And the AI never spams stacks at you, never takes advantage of that disabled fog of war, and isn't even all that hostile? That sounds truly remarkable. You really should stream that on YT.
    Why would anyone shoot themselves in a foot and recruit the worst unit available to HE in campaign (White Lions - the infantry)?

    Do you go “only war wagons” with Empire, because Greatswords and Demigryphs are “cheese”?

    It’s a nonsensical argument.

    “Archer spam“ btw (with some infantry support) is how HE should be played, both loreful and efficient. Note that I don’t say “sisters spam”, but of course that is the most efficient strategy available to HE.

    Eltharion on Vortex for sure was one of the biggest disappointments of the last DLC.

    Arguably the worst campaign in TWW to date. No enemies, overtuned mechanics and forcing the player to wander around the map for 20-30 turns each time. It’s anti-fun in the purest form.
    told every single one of you he should have been flc compared to imrik, and the only thing imrik needs visual and sound updates. may be much harder quest battles in exchange for upgrading ror dragons to emperor dragons
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • epic_159759330952IpzWbUFepic_159759330952IpzWbUF Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 987

    Ulthuan campaigns are infamously dull due to how rock-secure the island is. Yeah yeah, you can argue that this is loreful, it makes however for incredibly boring campaigns.

    Therefore I suggest that all three Ulthuan campaigns start with the entirety of he outer ring being under the control of hostile forces and your fist task being to restore the fallen outer kingdoms to their rightful owners, similar to the corresponding Empire mechanic. Additionally, there should be occasional waves of invaders spawning in the waters to keep the High Elves busy, not just the laughably weak blood voyage, maybe with a few turns of forewarning that a "great force of X is gathering near province Y".

    I envision the island being occupied by different races, DE in the northwest, Norscans in the northeast, Greenskins in the southeast and VCoast in the southwest. Eltharion in the Vortex start especially should have to face large invading Greenskin armies until he's dealt with Grom.

    I agree with the sentiment at least. I call it Easy Mode Island for a reason. I've tried to play factions that start there and I just can't get into it. So I basically shelved HE as a race until Imrik came along. So if they could come up with a way to make that island not a cakewalk I'd sure be interested in seeing it.

  • NinaranNinaran Registered Users Posts: 149
    Sure, change all Empire factions into Skaven and Norsca as well when you play Empire.
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