Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Factions with the most unused potential in Warhammer

2»

Comments

  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 5,637
    About the whole 'race' definition thing. Perhaps it would be for the best if we referred to them as cultures, or if we want to be more technical, rosters or army lists.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    Me when I see a LL character implemented as a LH.

    Warhammer Deserves Naval Battles

  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 31,542
    MrDragon said:

    ArneSo said:

    I also think it was a huge missed opportunity to not make Shades a separate race. They are to the DE what WE are for the HE and have a very unique culture and religion.

    I tried looking around if there's anything I could find that could help build a unique army list for them and couldn't even find a White Dwarf list for a unique shade army.
    So I'm not sure what you're getting on about here.

    That said: There's room in Naggaroth (in lore) to have another society there, one at odds with the Dark Elves. In-game Naggaroth is kinda squished, both Vortex and ME. Also missing all the green from the southern half.
    Of course there is nothing. That’s why I said it’s a missed opportunity.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 3,373
    edited August 2020
    ArneSo said:

    MrDragon said:

    ArneSo said:

    I also think it was a huge missed opportunity to not make Shades a separate race. They are to the DE what WE are for the HE and have a very unique culture and religion.

    I tried looking around if there's anything I could find that could help build a unique army list for them and couldn't even find a White Dwarf list for a unique shade army.
    So I'm not sure what you're getting on about here.

    That said: There's room in Naggaroth (in lore) to have another society there, one at odds with the Dark Elves. In-game Naggaroth is kinda squished, both Vortex and ME. Also missing all the green from the southern half.
    Of course there is nothing. That’s why I said it’s a missed opportunity.
    I feel this is closer to the purposely dismissed Cathay/Nippon part of the debate than the established armies GW published. that's the umbrage I take with bringing up the Shades as a potential entirely unique new army.

    Back on topic: You know what's possibly even more tragic? Abandoning the depth and diveristy of a faction.
    Vampire Counts are there. 6th Edition was the best incarnation and 8th Edition is a Carstein party.


    (And my personal grudge: Carving up Hordes of Chaos into 3 separate forces that all lack enough character on their own aside from the Daemons, and even the Daemon list is a bit weedy.)
  • WarfieldWarfield Registered Users Posts: 521
    Dwarfs, easily.

    1. Runes: No rune crafting system, terrible Anvil of Doom implementation, no great weapons nor shields for Runelords/Runesmiths, no Legendary Lord.
    2. Slayer cult: No Daemon Slayer, no Dragon Slayer, dual wield and great weapon variants for Troll Slayers and Giant slayers, no Goblin Hewer, no Doom Seekers, great weapons for slayers look like regular axes.
    3. Engineering: No workshop, no Steam Drills, Thunderbarges, no Lord nor Legendary Lord, missing a bunch of weapons teams from WFRP.

    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Stone and Steel


    TWW3 Dwarf Content Series:
    FLC/Update #1: "Brewing" Update, Josef Bugman FLC, Bugman's Brewery faction
    FLC/Update #2: "Royal Blood" Update, Alrik Ranulfsson FLC, Karak Hirn faction
    FLC/Update #3: "Vengeance" Update, Kazador Thunderhorn FLC, Karak Azul faction
    FLC/Update #4: "Runelore" Update, Kragg the Grim FLC, Runesmith's Guild faction

    DLC #1: The Sorcerer and the Engineer, "Engineer's Workshop" Update
    DLC #2: The Daemon and the Slayer, "Slayer's Oath" Update
  • Leopold_the_LeoLeopold_the_Leo Registered Users Posts: 122
    MrDragon said:

    ArneSo said:

    MrDragon said:

    ArneSo said:

    I also think it was a huge missed opportunity to not make Shades a separate race. They are to the DE what WE are for the HE and have a very unique culture and religion.

    I tried looking around if there's anything I could find that could help build a unique army list for them and couldn't even find a White Dwarf list for a unique shade army.
    So I'm not sure what you're getting on about here.

    That said: There's room in Naggaroth (in lore) to have another society there, one at odds with the Dark Elves. In-game Naggaroth is kinda squished, both Vortex and ME. Also missing all the green from the southern half.
    Of course there is nothing. That’s why I said it’s a missed opportunity.
    I feel this is closer to the purposely dismissed Cathay/Nippon part of the debate than the established armies GW published. that's the umbrage I take with bringing up the Shades as a potential entirely unique new army.

    Back on topic: You know what's possibly even more tragic? Abandoning the depth and diveristy of a faction.
    Vampire Counts are there. 6th Edition was the best incarnation and 8th Edition is a Carstein party.


    (And my personal grudge: Carving up Hordes of Chaos into 3 separate forces that all lack enough character on their own aside from the Daemons, and even the Daemon list is a bit weedy.)
    6th edition was the peak in general.

    Before having a good game totally gave way to making money.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771

    I've always thought that the New World (Lustria+Naggaroth) was lacking in diversity, and needed a third native race to balance Lizardmen and Dark Elves.

    Several people have independently suggested that an avian race dotted along the mountains that run north-south could've been cool.

    Not perfectly for the OP, but whatevs.

    On a related note, I always wanted there to be "Slave Resistance" race in Naggaroth, made up of the few surviving original inhabitants of the continent plus a motley assortment of escaped slaves from the Dark Elf cities. Big Spartacus vibes, hiding out in the mountains and forests, similar to the relationship between the Empire and the Beastmen, only in this case the civilized group is evil and the guerilla bands in the wilderness are good. Obviously you'd have to throw in a bit of the ol' Warhammer Grimdark, probably focused on what they have to do to survive out there (let's just say Mournguls are a big risk) but I think there's potential in the idea.
  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 936

    Apart from the unfortunate oversight with the Skaven above (which hopefully gets corrected soon):

    Forest Goblins - super cool Greenskin sub culture with a great vibe built around spider worship. Probably my #1 want atm as I think it has enough lore and can be brought to life in a rather straightforward fashion.

    Vampires (Bloodlines) - There's a lot of potential for different vampire bloodlines, it's enough to just look at the White Wolf setting. Existing WHFB bloodlines also have a lot of lore and untapped potential to be turned into very different subfactions of the vampire race.

    Tree spirits - While the Elf part of Wood Elves already covers most standard fantasy tropes about forest elves, the tree spirit side is much cooler, more unique, and woefully undeveloped with just 3 units and a couple of characters.

    Dwarfs - I really like what GW did with the steampunk dwarfs in AoS (please don't hit me). So I kinda wish there was a rogue high tech dwarf faction that forgoes traditionalist approach and builds all kinds of advanced machines and weapons. Kinda like Skryre of Dwarfs, but with focus on quality over quantity.

    Kislev/Southern Realms/Cathay - I think there's enough historical and mythological context to come up with some pretty cool concepts for these.

    for the dwarfs in there own way there was th chaos dwarfs are super tech focus, though they have noticed else that you would have a dwarfs faction for, grey beard Prospectors is a great mod that shows what could have been if they fed that thing
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    Of the races that had army books I definitely think the Dogs of War had the most missed potential.Chaos Dwarfs got a solid update via Tamurkhan, Beastmen had a coherent 8th Edition roster even if it was a bit bland, and Bretonnia holds together even if it is missing some bells and whistles.

    But the DoW hail from a very different time on tabletop. They were first and foremost conceived as additional regiments to be used by other races. While GW did give them a roster for a DoW-only army, it was an afterthought to the main focus of the book.

    As a result they both lack a roster with its own coherent aesthetics and playstyle, and they lack really unique untis that would have required their own models. No Steamtank or Ghorgon for the DoW, they have to make do with what can be easily repurposed from the castoff models of other armies.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,972
    Beastmen 100% never got the attention they deserved. Their connection to a primal state that humanity has since lost is a theme that resonates.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,459

    Of the races that had army books I definitely think the Dogs of War had the most missed potential.Chaos Dwarfs got a solid update via Tamurkhan, Beastmen had a coherent 8th Edition roster even if it was a bit bland, and Bretonnia holds together even if it is missing some bells and whistles.

    But the DoW hail from a very different time on tabletop. They were first and foremost conceived as additional regiments to be used by other races. While GW did give them a roster for a DoW-only army, it was an afterthought to the main focus of the book.

    As a result they both lack a roster with its own coherent aesthetics and playstyle, and they lack really unique untis that would have required their own models. No Steamtank or Ghorgon for the DoW, they have to make do with what can be easily repurposed from the castoff models of other armies.

    i actually have some ideas to make southern realms cool with their own asthetic. but the fourms are really harsh and honestly lack imagination badly, if you want i can PM you my ideas.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,080
    The High Elves without a doubt. Their kingdoms feel underdeveloped, especially in terms of units flavour. Caledor could have been so much more.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 7,088
    Wood elves were ignored in favour of the other elves, but they are the best of the 3 potentially. The lore of the other 2 is so convoluted and forced
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • ladymissfitladymissfit Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,201
    Somewhere else that feels like missed opportunities is the lizardmen not getting any real interactions with old world factions. there's no pay-off to the slann being these almost god-like beings. there's no instance of the lizardmen helping defend for example the empire or the dwarfs. they're just relegated to their little corner. they never got to be the defenders they were always built up to be which is particularly eggregious in the end times where they just **** off and again saved everyone off-screen. like would it be too much for like mazdamundi or Kroq-Gar teleporting to middenland to help stop archaon and maybe show Teclis his place in the magical hierarchy. but no.
    sykall said:



    I too think it is a missed oppurtunity, that we never saw female beastmen. Not necessarily that they fight against human patriachies, as this a bit to specific when they already have a broad hatred for human societes. Though it could be fitting in a backstory for a female turnskin character e.g.
    Otherwise I like your points. And yes female beastmen, or doves, are mentioned in the background to be rare and more peaceful. But I think this is more handwaving on GWs part as too avoid making new models or giving the beastmen more background, or gods beware, interesting lore or characters :s

    Then there is also the one rule when working with animals: "No matter how dangerous the males could be, when the females think you threaten their children, they are worse!"

    this is more or less what I was getting at yeah. there's just this strange disconect between the beastmen as this savage rejection of civilized society yet GW's reluctance to make female models and then their excusing hand-waves really only served to undermine this very central theme.
    Chaos lords should be women

    Army painter plox
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,741
    edited August 2020

    Somewhere else that feels like missed opportunities is the lizardmen not getting any real interactions with old world factions. there's no pay-off to the slann being these almost god-like beings. there's no instance of the lizardmen helping defend for example the empire or the dwarfs. they're just relegated to their little corner. they never got to be the defenders they were always built up to be which is particularly eggregious in the end times where they just **** off and again saved everyone off-screen. like would it be too much for like mazdamundi or Kroq-Gar teleporting to middenland to help stop archaon and maybe show Teclis his place in the magical hierachy.

    Yeah the Lizardmen could be more active in the wider setting except for them helping out in the background. But I think the larger problem is, that GWs creates interesting factions outside of the old world with nothing for them to do.

    The Old World is the main setting and the majority of the main factions is there. Then there are factions like the lizardmen, ogre kingdoms and tomb kings who exists at the outer areas. But what else of major consequences exists there?

    Take the new world in general. It has Lizardmen, a few human colonies and clan pestilence. Also dark elves, but they focus mainly on Ulthuan.
    No other native or major native faction, which could lead to interesting dynamics, exists for example. Instead the main story focus is Lizardmen fighting agains raiders and pillagers, outside of background events.

    Or the Tomb Kings. They are the only real faction in the southlands. Araby is non-playable, and the rest is more or less empty space. Lizardmen exist there, but about them nothing of substance is known. Karak Zorn is there, but it is just an empty spot.

    So the outer factions have essentially nothing important to do.
    CA thankfully fleshed out the vampire coast as a major faction, and placed Alith Anar on Naggaroths soil, to increase the New World dynamics somewhat.
    GWs should do something similar with their setting. Flesh out and minor factions, create new ones to fill the empty slots, to provide interesting content outside of the old world and create stakes there.

    In regards to recent lore events and the tabletop in general, all major events focus on the Old World, which is problematic for the outer factions, as they do not naturally fit into the event.
    If say the Tomb Kings or another outer faction were to be involved in a narrative campagin ala the Nemesis Crown, their presence has to be labourisly explained. But often they are simply excluded from participating.
    If the continents were properly fleshed out with interesting content, other theatres of war outside of the Old World might become interesting, giving the factions there stuff to do.

    Of course in case of a major event, lets say in the southlands, it might not be reasonable for certain old world factions to show up there too. So instead of strangeley justifing why the empire sends an expedition into Karak Zorn, it would be easier to cut them out of the narrative entirely. Empire players who want to play in the campaign can still do that, but their forces are then downgraded to auxillaries or mercenaries of an allied force, e.g. dwarfs. And all victoriy points the empire player gains are then counted as dwarfen victory points in a narrative sense.

    And multi theatre of war events habe their own appeal, especally in regards of scale. One such event that was well done, was the great war against chaos in which concurently the dark elves invaded ulthuan and chaos attacked kislev. Events on this scale could give many factions in many corners of the world a change to properly participate, instead of sitting in their pyramid except for the two or three major background Events specific to this faction.
    Post edited by sykall on
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • HeresyHoundHeresyHound Registered Users Posts: 8,152

    I've always thought that the New World (Lustria+Naggaroth) was lacking in diversity, and needed a third native race to balance Lizardmen and Dark Elves.

    Several people have independently suggested that an avian race dotted along the mountains that run north-south could've been cool.

    Not perfectly for the OP, but whatevs.

    The New World in the lore is just kind of boring and really could have used some livening up.

    Lustria is easier because there have been 2 races/factions hanging out there that never got fleshed out: Zombie Pirates and Amazons.

    I would not have brought in any of the Dreadfleet stuff and would have just expanded on the coast and how the "civilization" works being somewhat intelligent zombies. Could have had some interesting characters.

    Amazons being fleshed out would have just added a some more variety to the interior of the continent. Amazons being Old One creations who want to loot and utilize what was left and trying to move on with existing, unlike the Lizardmen who are slowly fading unable to move on from their original tasks.

    In Naggaroth I always wanted what @Draculasaurus said and have a sort of rebel faction of escaped slaves.

    Also of note is the massive continent spanning cave system filled with monsters and unknown ruins that we never really saw. I always thought some kind of Molemen rising up from the deepest depths of the earth would be a fun race in Naggaroth. Have them be one of the original inhabitants of the world that fled when the Old Ones starting extermination of the natives that didn't fit their plans.

    Also there are the black scaled humanoids living in the mountains. It is only assumed they are some kind of Beastmen, though that whole sections mentions that some or perhaps all of the mentioned Beastmen may just be an unknown race, like Old Worlders mistaking Lizardmen or Skaven for some kind of Beastmen. I wouldn't mind craggy monsters in Naggaroth.


    Also on the bird thing I always wanted the Sky Titans(some are said to have escaped out into the sky) to return with some sort of avian servitor race.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    edited August 2020


    for the dwarfs in there own way there was th chaos dwarfs are super tech focus, though they have noticed else that you would have a dwarfs faction for, grey beard Prospectors is a great mod that shows what could have been if they fed that thing

    Chaos dwarfs feel more magical than technological to me with all their monsters and daemonic siege engines. The mod looks quite interesting, thanks for bringing it up. But a fully fledged dwarf tech focused faction with more unique machines and weapons would be even cooler if it was a thing.
    sykall said:


    Your list is very nice and comprehensive. I too would like to see more emphasis on the technological marvels of the dwarfs. Not necessarily on a steampunk-like level, but with the exception of gyrocopters and their flamethrowers they do not show anything.
    A few more war machines would be cool for them, as would be more forest spirits or animals for the wood elves.

    On a minor note I would also like to see more emphasis on necromancers. Currently they play only second fiddle to vampires. I would like to see them getting more focus, maybe with a frankenstein-like approach and units like patchwork men. They must not necessarily be their own race/faction but their position in the wider setting should be bufft

    I personally would be interested in a non traditionalist dwarf faction that does their own thing. Which could also have a pretty different playstyle compared to the typical dwarfs, with more emphasis on powerful but fragile weapon teams and mobile machines (kinda like Skryre Skaven but with air, more elite and with no chaff).

    Necromancers could be made more important as a part of the Necrarch bloodline or if Kemmler's Barrow Legion would become its own thing.

Sign In or Register to comment.