Tier list

Lotus_Moon#2452 · September 2020

Since the last tier list got a bit of drama going i though it be good to share my view on this topic.

Tier S (in need of nerf to few parts of the roster)

Coast, Greenskins

Tier 1 (strong factions that only have 1 or two units over performing Or just great overall synergy and roster depth)

HE, LZM, EMP, Norsca, TK, SKV

Tier 2 (overall balanced factions that might have few units in need of buffs or some anwsers to very one sided mach ups)

Chaos, WE, Dwarfs, VC, Bret, BM, DE (DE are what i consider a tier 1.5 faction at the movement, but since i dont think anything in their roster needs nerfing i have placed them in tier 2)

I think the aim of balancing should be to have all those factions in between tier 1 or 2 which is not to far off.

And while my tier list groups most factions close together i do think the biggest issue are Horrible match ups that still exist, so any dlc’s should focus on plugging some of those gaps as was done with HE one.

andrewbh2003 · September 2020

well said

saweendra#3399 · September 2020

yap i think WE will be fine after dlc,
and once BM, WoC, VC and Dwarf get dlc they also be fine. these will most likely get dlc.

hopefully Bret will get dlc as well which will help balancing them better(please CA dlc for brets)

blindjonn · September 2020

This list reads more like my experience of TW:W, but Felkon's was very well reasoned, I think a few surprising matchups based on lesser known builds threw the board off a bit. I agree that the worst matchups need to be shored up as a priority, and I also firmly believe that smallest rosters need more units to be relevant in game 3 metas.

UberReptilian#8431 · September 2020

Seems pretty reasonable to me. Be really interesting if this DLC has the Dark Elves where they will end up alongside the Wood Elves. If the opponent is Skaven though...that'll be real interesting.

Lotus_Moon said:
Since the last tier list got a bit of drama going

To be fair, what doesn't in this forum rofl.

blindjonn · September 2020

UberReptilian said:
Be really interesting if this DLC has the Dark Elves where they will end up alongside the Wood Elves. If the opponent is Skaven though...that'll be real interesting.

It's always odd to see Dark Elves on the bottom half of the tier list, since they've got such varied tools. Their roster is almost complete, as well. Maybe some buffs would sort them out. Skaven, on the other hand, are missing some mobile units, among other things. I really hope we do get a broad Welves vs Clan Moulder DLC, with some fast stuff Skaven will become a faction I can actually play.

DwarfSizedBeard · September 2020

I wouldn't give any value to the teir list video, remember that every single matchup was rated independently of difficulty of a matchup, so for some factions they have factions they absolutely demolish in battle, like you hve to be much better or you will lose, and that was valued just as much as a matchup that with a traditional build you will be at a disadvantage, a fair teir list would have people watch people of similar skill levels and rate how difficult the fight was for either side and which has the advantage and how large of one it is, ideally using a 100 point system wirh 50 being the starting point, then when you go to graph it you subtract the base 50 for each matchup

UberReptilian#8431 · September 2020

blindjonn said:

UberReptilian said:
Be really interesting if this DLC has the Dark Elves where they will end up alongside the Wood Elves. If the opponent is Skaven though...that'll be real interesting.
It's always odd to see Dark Elves on the bottom half of the tier list, since they've got such varied tools. Their roster is almost complete, as well. Maybe some buffs would sort them out. Skaven, on the other hand, are missing some mobile units, among other things. I really hope we do get a broad Welves vs Clan Moulder DLC, with some fast stuff Skaven will become a faction I can actually play.

Yeah, I don't think DE need a DLC but it is a possibility. Problem I find with them is they have a lot stuff that needs buffing and only a few areas that need nerfing. Malus, Kharybdiss, Medusa and Reaper Bolt Throwers immediately strike out to me as needing buffs/bug fixes and then I can see an immediate jump in tier. I think the Scourgerunner stuff really made everyone focus on them being OP, but they have quite a few useless tools imo.

Moulder is where it's at I agree. As far as TT's concerned Giant and Wolf Rats and Brood Horrors are the only missing 8th Edition units and all of should be quite fast. Just getting a Dire Wolf with Giant Rats and Norscan Ice Wolves with Wolf Rats would be huge. Plus the Horror if added would give the Warlord a Regenerating Infantry Blender with a Bloated Corpse-esque death. Might actually see them in MP again. If Moulder does happen I think the Rat-men will be more of a bane here than they already are haha.

I'm no WE expert but they also 1000% jump a tier if they get Spellweaver's with all 8 lores + High and Dark like they should. Melee Glade/Hawk riders too would also be insanely useful. Just really hoping they get something to help with the Dawi. DW VS WE is the worst matchup in the game imo.

Disposable Hero · September 2020

This is very close to my intuitive list as well, I would probably bump up DE to tier 1 as well even though they would be the weakest faction of the t1 factions.

tank3487 · September 2020

I do agree more with this. Only DE are still T1 faction.
Btw brets are quite good now not only vs LZDs, but vs Norsca too.

saweendra#3399 · September 2020

tank3487 said:
I do agree more with this. Only DE are still T1 faction.
Btw brets are quite good now not only vs LZDs, but vs Norsca too.

How do you counter fimir

they just kill every thing

tank3487 · September 2020

kasunrathnatunga said:

How do you counter fimir they just kill every thing

Fimirs are slow and actually not that great right now for price. If Norsca split you overwhelm them 1 by 1 with cav+terror from Louen. If Norsca blob you has 5 archers to kill infantry/mammonth.
It is not hard matchup for Bret if you do not let ship annihilate 1-2 units of cav.
Thing is vs other factions in such situation Norsca can bring Ice trolls. But it is quite risky pick vs Brets.

saweendra#3399 · September 2020

tank3487 said:

kasunrathnatunga said:

How do you counter fimir they just kill every thing
Fimirs are slow and actually not that great right now for price. If Norsca split you overwhelm them 1 by 1 with cav+terror from Louen. If Norsca blob you has 5 archers to kill infantry/mammonth.
It is not hard matchup for Bret if you do not let ship annihilate 1-2 units of cav.
Thing is vs other factions in such situation Norsca can bring Ice trolls. But it is quite risky pick vs Brets.

Thank you will keep that in mind.

But the issue is if they bring good number of fimir plus hounds.I always find not enough cav to keep both front line intact and back line secure with them.
Its pretty much the same issue i face with the crab rush of coast.

Or stone troll rush plus light cav of GS.
They just blitz your front line hard and bret infantry gets insta routed. Then they force cav to front line and when cav count go down they attack with light cav or hounds and kill archers.

Lotus_Moon#2452 · September 2020

Disposable Hero said:
This is very close to my intuitive list as well, I would probably bump up DE to tier 1 as well even though they would be the weakest faction of the t1 factions.

Yep spot on, for me DE are the proper definition of tier 1.5 at the moment, only reason i placed them in tier 2 not 1 currently was because of my definition of the tiers being based on untis needing nerfing etc and i dotn think thats the case with DE at the moment.

tank3487 · September 2020

kasunrathnatunga said:

But the issue is if they bring good number of fimir plus hounds.

Thing is. If you take Mammonth Lord plus 3 Fimirs GW plus Fimir fire caster(and if it is not Fimir, Manticore summon would just eat it). It is around 8150 gold. And you still need infantry. And marauders would rout instantly vs charge+terror.
Btw it is one matchup where i prefer Beast caster for brets btw, cause manticore force Fimirs to keep near caster or face caster snipe.
I tend to find this matchup much easier from Bret side you pick engagements, hounds are not that big problem if you do not miss micro cav.

another505 · September 2020

Is definitely doable against norsca

Would say the bad mu for bret are chaos
Ive seen new builds with archaeon and 2-3chaos knights, 1/2 shaggoth , chaos warrior halberd and mar horseman
Archaeon has been surprisingly great against bret more than kholek.

Dwf
Still hard

Vp
very hard. Zombies are too strong, too many things bret need to prepare for. Archers dont work against prepaeed vp, they just break to a breeze and then dogs chew them

Gs just realy good now.

Tk, gotrek and fay is holding it to a fair mu. Without gotrek i would say its hard.

I would say norsca is fair but if norsca is on point on aoe spells and bret is busy looking somewhere else. Bret infantry and archer will break insanely fast.

Dealing with fimir is their ld. Encircle them and have terror. Shoot them too for that extra -5ld.

And in all, bret weakness is still their predictability.

tank3487 · September 2020

another505 said:

I would say norsca is fair but if norsca is on point on aoe spells and bret is busy looking somewhere else. Bret infantry and archer will break insanely fast.

All you infantry are either peasants/peasants with pointy sticks maybe with RoR piligrims(and they have loose formation, so not fear that much of AOEs). And you has not point of blobbing brets infantry, cause you just buy time with it. With missiles it is all about proper position. If you place archers correctly Norsca cannot hit more than 1 archer unit with AOE even if you do not dodge.
Only thing that i am worried about are ship hitting main cav unit. Cav can dodge it due to speed(and you actually has no reason to sit in tight formation with cav unit, cause you charge and retreat), but need attention.

another505 said:

And in all, bret weakness is still their predictability.

Norsca are quite predictable too.

tank3487 · September 2020

As for topic. I actually agree with Tiering if DE are Tier 1.5 at least. With exception of HE being tier higher in the S division if you use toxic things like Nets+breaths or Net+Fiery and combos with diffrent lores kite to the max potential. And i think people overestimate GS a bit.

VP would be fine the moment CA fix bombers.

The_real_FAUST#6885 · September 2020

Good thread thanks for it and your thoughts.

I find I agree more with this one than the other- though of course that doesn't mean that was is wrong and this one is right.

I'd push DE up into 1 but the reasoning for 1.5 makes sense and I can see the point.

I hope this thread lasts it's a good topic for discussion.

All the more reason for CA to release the stats from the previous patch!

Duck and the gang, please consider it.

eumaies#1128 · September 2020

tank3487 said:
As for topic. I actually agree with Tiering if DE are Tier 1.5 at least. With exception of HE being tier higher in the S division if you use toxic things like Nets+breaths or Net+Fiery and combos with diffrent lores kite to the max potential. And i think people overestimate GS a bit.

VP would be fine the moment CA fix bombers.

DE have some pretty bad matchups now, and due to being a low hp faction with limited range and healing they suffer more when other races get buffs.

Pirates OP bombers hurt that matchup for DE more than for other factions; it’s quite lopsided.

HE buffs to infantry units and magic cut into DE options quite a bit; quite lopsided now.

GS still have insanely good skirmish cav options and their very tanky super item lords are especially potent Vs a low hp faction; feels quite lopsided now.

Still they’re not in a terrible place overall but I think they’ve been hit pretty hard by the most recent balance fails. Scourgerunners and cold one knights are holding the faction together, though I appreciate they at least got cheaper darkshards in recent patch as an option.

another505 · September 2020

tank3487 said:

another505 said:

I would say norsca is fair but if norsca is on point on aoe spells and bret is busy looking somewhere else. Bret infantry and archer will break insanely fast.
All you infantry are either peasants/peasants with pointy sticks maybe with RoR piligrims(and they have loose formation, so not fear that much of AOEs). And you has not point of blobbing brets infantry, cause you just buy time with it. With missiles it is all about proper position. If you place archers correctly Norsca cannot hit more than 1 archer unit with AOE even if you do not dodge.
Only thing that i am worried about are ship hitting main cav unit. Cav can dodge it due to speed(and you actually has no reason to sit in tight formation with cav unit, cause you charge and retreat), but need attention.
another505 said:

And in all, bret weakness is still their predictability.
Norsca are quite predictable too.

Norsca predictability at least spread out into different types of units, monster, monster inf, infantry, chariots and skirmishers
Bret predicitability is focused on cav, archers and their monster lord.

Both of them are predicitable but bret is definitely more.

Also i meant aoe spells on archers
Seafang and burning head will reliably rout one even dodging some of it thanks to low ld.
And i do know how to position them to not get more than one unit being hit by wind spell but still the line can crumble realy quick with mammoths, fimirs and spell. Or sometimes berserkers or skinwolves

Im not a big fan of pilgrims in this mu. Maybe 2 of them max. Prefer spearmen and more gold to the cav.

Anyways. Its a fair mu. Thats my point

tank3487 · September 2020

another505 said:

Bret predicitability is focused on cav, archers and their monster lord.

Bret has much better Lords variation. It is quite hard to be prepared for both Mortis lady and Louen, plus throgg tier other Bret Lords.
Brets has good air. Can field artillery.
I mean while both factions do suck at "surprise you" factor on unit selection. Brets Lords variation are definitely better.

another505 · September 2020

tank3487 said:

another505 said:

Bret predicitability is focused on cav, archers and their monster lord.
Bret has much better Lords variation. It is quite hard to be prepared for both Mortis lady and Louen, plus throgg tier other Bret Lords.
Brets has good air. Can field artillery.
I mean while both factions do suck at "surprise you" factor on unit selection. Brets Lords variation are definitely better.

true that

Cadia101 · September 2020

tank3487 said:

another505 said:

Bret predicitability is focused on cav, archers and their monster lord.
Bret has much better Lords variation. It is quite hard to be prepared for both Mortis lady and Louen, plus throgg tier other Bret Lords.
Brets has good air. Can field artillery.
I mean while both factions do suck at "surprise you" factor on unit selection. Brets Lords variation are definitely better.

I don’t find trebuchet good tho and PK + RPK are very clunky to use.

saweendra#3399 · September 2020

Both Norsca and bret need dlc. Norsca to get more lord options bret to get more units and magic. And they have many rivalry between each other

another505 · September 2020

RPK is very hard to use well but done right can rack up hundreds of kills and headaches to opponent. PK is still mostly trash
at least bret does have a somewhat usuable artillery, norsca dont.

A norsca vs bret dlc, barbarian vs knight would be cool. They do have rivalry.

tank3487 · September 2020

Cadia101 said:

I don’t find trebuchet good

They are not good. But it is cheap arty that counter some builds quite hard.

Cadia101 said:

PK + RPK are very clunky to use.

Most air are clunky to use. Just look on Vargheists.

kasunrathnatunga said:
Both Norsca and bret need dlc. Norsca to get more lord options bret to get more units and magic. And they have many rivalry between each other

That Norsca are stuck with 1 Lord basicaly(plus Throg that sometimes can be used) right now are quite problematic.

Cadia101 · September 2020

tank3487 said:

Cadia101 said:

PK + RPK are very clunky to use.
Most air are clunky to use. Just look on Vargheists.

I would say single models have no problem but anything with more than 6 models have problems with charge and disengagement.

saweendra#3399 · September 2020

Cadia101 said:

tank3487 said:

Cadia101 said:

PK + RPK are very clunky to use.
Most air are clunky to use. Just look on Vargheists.

I would say single models have no problem but anything with more than 6 models have problems with charge and disengagement.

Charge is fine disengagement suck.

another505 · September 2020

Charge is hard too

You need to be extra wary charging into blob fights with pegasus knights as they charge into the blob and get surrounded instead of cavs charging into the outside

Its why they are hard to use. They dont perform well in messy and tight situations.

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