Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Potential units for dark elf DLC: Whelp Masters

2»

Comments

  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,905
    ArneSo said:

    Not a big fan of Dog or wolf units... they are always so useless.

    ...Whhhhaaaaaaaat?

    Dog/Hound/Wolf units find a place in every army I field, because you can continue to chase routing units off the field with them. Plus, if you're lucky, you can also catch lone artillery and archery squads too far out to save.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,870
    makar55 said:

    We have not got disciple of Khaine yet

    Great, throw it on the Khainite pile of things for Tullaris to use. It's beginning to grow quite big.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 31,456

    ArneSo said:

    Not a big fan of Dog or wolf units... they are always so useless.

    ...Whhhhaaaaaaaat?

    Dog/Hound/Wolf units find a place in every army I field, because you can continue to chase routing units off the field with them. Plus, if you're lucky, you can also catch lone artillery and archery squads too far out to save.
    Yes but that’s basically the only thing where they are good at. Doomstacking forces the player to use units that are flexible and useful against Elite units. So instead of using niche units like hounds/wolfs it always seems to be better to just recruit a higher tier unit instead.

    That’s just my experience of course.

    I remember in all the VC campaigns I played, that I stopped using Direwolfs around turn 20 and went for Cavalry instead.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,602
    Fossoway said:

    We really gotta dig deep for new DE units :/

    I was wondering if it was just me who’s thinking this.

    DE one of my favourite factions but these dlc suggestions make no sense to me. Although they need is fresh new mechanics and maybe a manticores mount for beast masters
  • HeresyHoundHeresyHound Registered Users Posts: 8,150
    edited September 2020

    ArneSo said:

    Not a big fan of Dog or wolf units... they are always so useless.

    Well I question how you are using them if you think they are useless
    Seriously, I get 100+ kills on most hound units on any battle they're in. If you get them into the enemy archers or send them after routing infantry, they will win the battle for you.
    The cost to kill ratio for hounds can't be beat. Even if the enemy doesn't have archers or artillery they obliterate any units that route. At the very least the AI has a habit of devoting quite a few units just to chase them.

    The Cold One War/Beast Hounds sound like they would be a decent unit to throw into a DE LP.

    Personally digging the name "Murder Hounds," especially with the added suggestion that they are in some way magical.
    If we get hounds for DE it is kind of a toss up for me.

    On one hand Murdee Hounds with magical attacks sounds great.

    On the other the Cold One Beasthounds sound like they are basically doggigators and scaly skin, fear, and likely aquatic would also be great.

    Honestly, I know the Rakarth ship has likely sailed but a LP with Rakarth, hounds, Spellthirster Hydra, Basilisks, some sort of "tamer" infantry with whips to replace the embedded beastmaster from TT, and then some sort of Silverin guard type unit, would be a great LP.
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,905
    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    Not a big fan of Dog or wolf units... they are always so useless.

    ...Whhhhaaaaaaaat?

    Dog/Hound/Wolf units find a place in every army I field, because you can continue to chase routing units off the field with them. Plus, if you're lucky, you can also catch lone artillery and archery squads too far out to save.
    Yes but that’s basically the only thing where they are good at. Doomstacking forces the player to use units that are flexible and useful against Elite units. So instead of using niche units like hounds/wolfs it always seems to be better to just recruit a higher tier unit instead.

    That’s just my experience of course.

    I remember in all the VC campaigns I played, that I stopped using Direwolfs around turn 20 and went for Cavalry instead.
    I haven't really had issues with the AI doomstacking too severely. At least, not to the point where it forced me to run the same. If you can afford a Tier 5 Single Entity Monster, is it likely going to outperform a Tier 1 Hound unit? Absolutely - as it should, it's dramatically more expensive to run. As for the rest of the Elite Squads... Hounds still tend to mulch them. Tier 5 Infantry, Archers, Monsters and even Cavalry trying to route are an easy meal for dogs, and there's few better feelings than watching your cheap-as-chips squad of pups munch an opponent's expensive, end-game unit, simply because they routed for a moment.
  • BloodydaggerBloodydagger Registered Users Posts: 3,947
    God, there really isn't anything left for DEs without bottom of the barrel digging for units.

    This is why they are flc material now.

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,047
    Kelefane said:

    God, there really isn't anything left for DEs without bottom of the barrel digging for units.

    This is why they are flc material now.

    What's the difference between content from the bottom of the barrel and more accessible one? They still can get a centrepiece unit in the form of the Statue of Khaine.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 34,504
    This makes a great case against another DE LP.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor

  • BloodydaggerBloodydagger Registered Users Posts: 3,947

    Kelefane said:

    God, there really isn't anything left for DEs without bottom of the barrel digging for units.

    This is why they are flc material now.

    What's the difference between content from the bottom of the barrel and more accessible one? They still can get a centrepiece unit in the form of the Statue of Khaine.
    Because it would feel extremely forced. They are flc material. They do deserve another LL, but not in a LP.

  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,445
    So the third DE pack is also start to take shape,

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • manuelpsmanuelps Registered Users Posts: 2,746
    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    Not a big fan of Dog or wolf units... they are always so useless.

    Well I question how you are using them if you think they are useless
    In my opinion it’s always better to just use a cavalry unit instead for more flexibility. Since unit spots are so limited and the AI is only using elites, such niche midtier units are getting redundant pretty quickly... that’s not a problem of the unit, it’s a general problem of the game.

    Dire Wolfs for example are okay in the first 20 turns, but as soon as the empire spams Greatsword, Demigryph, Reiksguard Doomstacks around turn 40, they are worthless. So the time frame where such units are useful is so incredibly small that it’s always better to directly wait for the better unit.

    In case of the white lions, why using the Pack when you can have the better chariot 10 turns later?

    Again, it’s a general problem of the game that units are getting available way to fast.

    Really hope CA will fix that in WH3 because right now, 50% of the unit roster is obsolete thanks to Doomstacking.
    I agree with you here. When playing as Eltharion you get a war lions unit at the start that can definitely do wonders, but as soon as you have access to ellyrian reavers there's no point to bring the war lions other than coolness factor. Ellyrian reavers get vanguard deployment -so you can charge at enemy artillery at the start of the battle, if needed-, ranged attacks and superior speed so they are better at chasing down routers. What yo lose is the AP which is not that important early game anyway, the fear and the superior charge. However, I don't think they should be buffed, just moved to T2, and while at it, maybe rework the HELF basic military buildings, since the regular barracks are a bit redundant now and rangers would make more sense in the same chain as lions and eagles.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,047
    Kelefane said:

    Kelefane said:

    God, there really isn't anything left for DEs without bottom of the barrel digging for units.

    This is why they are flc material now.

    What's the difference between content from the bottom of the barrel and more accessible one? They still can get a centrepiece unit in the form of the Statue of Khaine.
    Because it would feel extremely forced. They are flc material. They do deserve another LL, but not in a LP.
    Why forced. Cool is what it would be.
  • MythrilSoulMythrilSoul Registered Users Posts: 934
    if there is a sliver of chance of another DE lord pack, i prefer the Sea Dragon as the centerpice unit, preferably with a seal on land walking animation
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 34,504

    Kelefane said:

    God, there really isn't anything left for DEs without bottom of the barrel digging for units.

    This is why they are flc material now.

    What's the difference between content from the bottom of the barrel and more accessible one? They still can get a centrepiece unit in the form of the Statue of Khaine.
    The same difference between a delicious perfectly cooked steak and a steak from the trash.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor

  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,879
    Kelefane said:

    Kelefane said:

    God, there really isn't anything left for DEs without bottom of the barrel digging for units.

    This is why they are flc material now.

    What's the difference between content from the bottom of the barrel and more accessible one? They still can get a centrepiece unit in the form of the Statue of Khaine.
    Because it would feel extremely forced. They are flc material. They do deserve another LL, but not in a LP.
    Yeah, with the quality of FLC LLs (which I am fairly confident will be upped again in the upcoming DLC) I think a FLC Tullaris would be fine to round out the DE roster personally.

    I remember seeing a youtube speculation vid on DEs and most of the units were Dragons.... Magma Dragons, Nightmare Dragons, Sea Dragons.... I guess Magma and Sea Dragons (can they go up on land?) would be ground based and thus wouldn't add to dragon-bloat in anything other than name so that would be something.

    I mean... Maybe magma dragons (dunno, doesn't feel very "DE-y"), the ghosts in the first Malus book when he infiltrates his brother's tower (forget the name), maybe a khaine themed infantry.... With a lord level Death Hag and Tullaris perhaps that could form the basis of a good pack, but still, I would rather have Moulder next and any LPs after focus on game 1 (or even round off TKs). Perhaps that DE pack could come in the X-LP fest that is a virtual certainty after the initial DLC phase of game 3, along with the likes of Aislinn.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,047

    Kelefane said:

    God, there really isn't anything left for DEs without bottom of the barrel digging for units.

    This is why they are flc material now.

    What's the difference between content from the bottom of the barrel and more accessible one? They still can get a centrepiece unit in the form of the Statue of Khaine.
    The same difference between a delicious perfectly cooked steak and a steak from the trash.
    I think it's a false quivalence but I'm willing to agree because of the words positioning. Let's scrape the bottom of the barrel for that sweet, sweet fat.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,415
    Erathil said:

    Wow... early Warhammer art was rubbish.

    I'm kind of leery of giving elves more animal pack units. It was a bit of a stretch with War Lions of Chrace. I really don't think Dark Elves or Wood Elves should have troops in that particular niche.

    WH 1st 2nd and 3rd ed was very early days for GW, I believe it was back before they officially owned Citadel miniatures. Their models and lore were the big sellers, art was always an afterthought up until 5th edition, it was their weakest link.

    I totally disagree with Elves and animals. War Lions was a really great edition and a flavourful unit I thought we'd never see. Little things like that go along way to making chrace feel a bit more fleshed out.

    Wood Elves had sabre toothed tigers, bears, boar's and wolves, and while I don't think they should get them all, being the forest elves, I think creatures of the forest are a big part of their aesthetic that's sorely missed in their official roster and TWWH (even though they still existed and are mentioned in their 8th ed army book).
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,415
    Reghis said:

    neodeinos said:

    ArneSo said:

    Not a big fan of Dog or wolf units... they are always so useless.

    Good thing there is something that's called "balance".
    something CA seems to struggle with tho
    Maybe in campaign, but in multiplayer things are almost too balanced alot of the time. I don't think every fight should end with both players loosing 99% of their forces but that's the size of it for the vast majority rn.

    Obviously VCoast and Tomb Kings were and still may be OP while other neglected factions like the Beastmen and Bretonnia are considerably underpowered, but generally speaking the games pretty well balanced.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,415
    @Crossil

    What other Khainite things are there aside from the statues and the Daughters of Despair?

    I thought you hated lore blurb units, obscure stuff and things from iffy sources?
  • BloodydaggerBloodydagger Registered Users Posts: 3,947

    @Crossil

    What other Khainite things are there aside from the statues and the Daughters of Despair?

    I thought you hated lore blurb units, obscure stuff and things from iffy sources?

    He is a Skaven denier. He'd rather have Dark Elves with bottom of the garbage units than a well fleshed out Moulder LP that lack actual top of the heap units.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,415
    edited September 2020
    @Kelefane

    Sea Dragons, Night Maidens of Atharti, Khaine living statues, daughters of Despair, chaos elves (as much as I hate them), Desciples of Khaine, Executioner Heroes, Welp master's etc aren't garbage simply because they're not in the most recent army book. Many races such as the Dwarfs were characterised far better in the fluff than in their official roster, why? Because GW like to big things up in their stories but don't like to Spend their own money manufacturing expensive models on X, Y and Z.

    Clothique have flying fish they use as cavalry to scout the waters around Ulthuan and deliver messages, it's one of the coolest little titbits about their navy and yet never saw the light of day in a model for obvious reasons.

    CA said this DLC is all about 'completing your collection' and expanding on rosters that were presumed finished and the Dark Elves have fought with the Wood Elves way more frequently in far bigger battles and Ariel has a noted rivalry with Morathi, so Dark Elves aren't that much of a stretch.

    I will say though that I'd much prefer the DE's get the same treatment as the WE's when their update comes in WH3, I'd prefer a big last hurrah with all the heroes, units and variants they're missing rather than being the lopsided part of the WE DLC.
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Registered Users Posts: 1,411
    I don't think they need more units TBH. It's their mechanics and unit stats that need a rework. Maybe a FLC lord like Kouran Darkhand as an Alistar type lord for Malekith. He fights on foot and his "mount" is additional Tower Masters who join his unit and are too angry to die (until their morale breaks anyway).

    Murderous prowess should proc sooner and be able to proc multiple times during the battle.

    Supreme Sorceress should be brought up to par with Archmage.

    Dark Riders Should be brought up to Reavers. They're not even as good before you count in Martial Prowess when they're supposed to be mirrors of each other.

    Cold Ones are pretty terrible. They're garbage against infantry and not even that good against large. For a unit that's supposed to be top tier mortal cavalry, they're mediocre in their niche and bad outside it.

    Where is Hate? It's a major mechanic and theme for the faction and has been completely left out (other armies like Dwarfs are also missing it). Hating High Elves is central to what makes someone a Dark Elf. It should add 10-12 melee attack lasting 30 seconds active if in combat and only recharging out of combat. Units with Eternal Hatred would always have it active (Malekith, Malus, Kouran, Black Guard).
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,905
    Goatforce said:

    Kelefane said:

    Kelefane said:

    God, there really isn't anything left for DEs without bottom of the barrel digging for units.

    This is why they are flc material now.

    What's the difference between content from the bottom of the barrel and more accessible one? They still can get a centrepiece unit in the form of the Statue of Khaine.
    Because it would feel extremely forced. They are flc material. They do deserve another LL, but not in a LP.
    Yeah, with the quality of FLC LLs (which I am fairly confident will be upped again in the upcoming DLC) I think a FLC Tullaris would be fine to round out the DE roster personally.

    I remember seeing a youtube speculation vid on DEs and most of the units were Dragons.... Magma Dragons, Nightmare Dragons, Sea Dragons.... I guess Magma and Sea Dragons (can they go up on land?) would be ground based and thus wouldn't add to dragon-bloat in anything other than name so that would be something.

    I mean... Maybe magma dragons (dunno, doesn't feel very "DE-y"), the ghosts in the first Malus book when he infiltrates his brother's tower (forget the name), maybe a khaine themed infantry.... With a lord level Death Hag and Tullaris perhaps that could form the basis of a good pack, but still, I would rather have Moulder next and any LPs after focus on game 1 (or even round off TKs). Perhaps that DE pack could come in the X-LP fest that is a virtual certainty after the initial DLC phase of game 3, along with the likes of Aislinn.
    That video was mine. There's also Basilisks too, which would fit the Dark Elves perfectly!
Sign In or Register to comment.