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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591

    Here's the difference between Noble on Chariot and the Doomwheel.

    If you make mistakes with the Doomwheel you get punished for it.

    If you make mistakes with the Noble on Chariot, you just heal him up and the other guy gets punished instead because he made most probably a very uneven trade (nets, ammo, own WoM vs just WoM),

    Healing on SEs must be nerfed because it can't be that good play is punished and bad play rewarded.

    That's exactly how it doesn't work.
    That's exactly how it works.
    False.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,557
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    yap everyone is right they don't have manticore just peg, with BvL

    it's a nice unit. Now if the faction had healing, they would use units like that alot more...
    in lore they can technically use lore of life so .

    but do you think DE has inherent design that requires healing like HE and WE
    They tend to have more punch - kill faster rather than rebirth kind of approach. But when you see a faction with low Hp able to work around it it speaks to how high elves could play with less of an emphasis on healing. They have lots of tools now.
    Well the issue is people including me get fixed on playstyle hard. Yeah i agree HE definitely doesn't need to use healing but few players actually bother playing with out it.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    I don't understand the obsession with healing. Use your own support, profit.

    Exactly what I said. It encourages players to play more single entity tactics.
    according to this logic, Norsca, Greenskins, Lizardmen should not be SEM driven cuz no healing but experience suggests you’re wrong.
    obviously giving single entities 10k hp is a decent substitute for healing. I don't mind single entities performing consistent with their cost.
    factions that have access to lore of Life often have very subpar SEMs. You can see this by noticing that for example the Black Dragon from DE roster is never played. You know why? Because it's not a good unit.

    Incidentally Eumaies HE today lost their only battle that they were picked in ECL. I am starting to think you are lying to me and this is a "you" problem :(
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,855
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    I don't understand the obsession with healing. Use your own support, profit.

    Exactly what I said. It encourages players to play more single entity tactics.
    according to this logic, Norsca, Greenskins, Lizardmen should not be SEM driven cuz no healing but experience suggests you’re wrong.
    obviously giving single entities 10k hp is a decent substitute for healing. I don't mind single entities performing consistent with their cost.
    factions that have access to lore of Life often have very subpar SEMs. You can see this by noticing that for example the Black Dragon from DE roster is never played. You know why? Because it's not a good unit.

    Incidentally Eumaies HE today lost their only battle that they were picked in ECL. I am starting to think you are lying to me and this is a "you" problem :(
    Juvenile use of anecdotes, as always. It's one step away from the true/false debate we have going on elsewhere in this thread. Fortunately I'm too lazy to waste both our time with a counter anecdote.

    Black dragon from DE is rarely played because malekith on a dragon is usually the superior option. Personally playing high elves I'm having no trouble building perfectly viable armies with dragons that don't include healing. It's not an essential option and doesn't have to be elevated as much as it is in the current design of the faction.

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349
    edited September 5
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    I don't understand the obsession with healing. Use your own support, profit.

    Exactly what I said. It encourages players to play more single entity tactics.
    according to this logic, Norsca, Greenskins, Lizardmen should not be SEM driven cuz no healing but experience suggests you’re wrong.
    obviously giving single entities 10k hp is a decent substitute for healing. I don't mind single entities performing consistent with their cost.
    factions that have access to lore of Life often have very subpar SEMs. You can see this by noticing that for example the Black Dragon from DE roster is never played. You know why? Because it's not a good unit.

    Incidentally Eumaies HE today lost their only battle that they were picked in ECL. I am starting to think you are lying to me and this is a "you" problem :(
    Juvenile use of anecdotes, as always. It's one step away from the true/false debate we have going on elsewhere in this thread. Fortunately I'm too lazy to waste both our time with a counter anecdote.

    Black dragon from DE is rarely played because malekith on a dragon is usually the superior option. Personally playing high elves I'm having no trouble building perfectly viable armies with dragons that don't include healing. It's not an essential option and doesn't have to be elevated as much as it is in the current design of the faction.

    Dwarves were picked twice and are 1-0 so far, looking at 2-0. I'll write a post of what units I think need nerfs in DW roster soon.

    About Malekith, no, you're wrong. Morathi is a very competitive lord, and can cast more Soul Stealers than Malekith. 0 reason why Morathi + Black Dragon shouldn't see play, it doesn't see play only cuz Black Dragons are not competitive without healing.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591
    HE lost to both WE and TK so far, not that is means anything in isolation but I really don't see HE win much in tournaments lately. I still think they are a top faction, but not quite at the level of VP, TK and GS afaic, and not littered with op stuff.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349
    UPDATE: HE are 0-2 in ECL, and DW are 2-0.

    I guess this is conclusive proof that DW = TOO STRONG?
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 576
    Green0 said:

    UPDATE: HE are 0-2 in ECL, and DW are 2-0.

    I guess this is conclusive proof that DW = TOO STRONG?

    Just shows that only good players pick DW while every noob thinks he can beat Felkon with HE.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,972
    MTech said:

    Green0 said:

    UPDATE: HE are 0-2 in ECL, and DW are 2-0.

    I guess this is conclusive proof that DW = TOO STRONG?

    Just shows that only good players pick DW while every noob thinks he can beat Felkon with HE.
    Felkon didnt play
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 576
    Which they actually can when he plays DW.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,972
    MTech said:

    Which they actually can when he plays DW.

    Mind showing something to back that up?
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349
    MTech said:

    Green0 said:

    UPDATE: HE are 0-2 in ECL, and DW are 2-0.

    I guess this is conclusive proof that DW = TOO STRONG?

    Just shows that only good players pick DW while every noob thinks he can beat Felkon with HE.
    nah it shows more that Dwarves are a rly strong counterpick faction with a few autowin matchups among others Coast for example which they beat readily.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 576

    MTech said:

    Which they actually can when he plays DW.

    Mind showing something to back that up?
    Turins Channel, but since Green0 does fine with anecdotes why should I be bothered?
  • RheingoldRheingold Registered Users Posts: 629
    Yeah, there was a recent match - Turins random wheel tournie where Felkon had to play dwarfs v Helfs. First time I've seen him get his ass kicked all over the map. It would have been funny if it hadn't' been so sad. :D
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349
    Rheingold said:

    Yeah, there was a recent match - Turins random wheel tournie where Felkon had to play dwarfs v Helfs. First time I've seen him get his ass kicked all over the map. It would have been funny if it hadn't' been so sad. :D

    there’s just not much mystery to the DW-HE MU even for a relatively new player. Also assuming good play from HE side, it’s not like the Dwarves can do much short of hard forest/corner camping or something like that.

    The faction doesn’t allow for overloading flanks, baiting engagements, turning bad engagements into good ones with spells etc. since it’s so infantry-centric and infantry is slow hence you’re always the one reacting and not dictating the pace of the game.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 422
    Green0 said:

    Rheingold said:

    Yeah, there was a recent match - Turins random wheel tournie where Felkon had to play dwarfs v Helfs. First time I've seen him get his ass kicked all over the map. It would have been funny if it hadn't' been so sad. :D

    there’s just not much mystery to the DW-HE MU even for a relatively new player. Also assuming good play from HE side, it’s not like the Dwarves can do much short of hard forest/corner camping or something like that.

    The faction doesn’t allow for overloading flanks, baiting engagements, turning bad engagements into good ones with spells etc. since it’s so infantry-centric and infantry is slow hence you’re always the one reacting and not dictating the pace of the game.
    Actually thats false. A good dwarf player MUST be in control of the game, weather directly or indirecly. Losing control and relieving pressure from the opponent leads to you getting run over. You always want to dictate where the enemy engages, when they engage and provide disincentives to attack areas you dont want them to be in (eg simply leaving some slayers on the left flank can deter a cav charge there, meanwhile you provide constant pressure on key targets woth long range firepower and bait opponents into a cav charge next to stalked rangers gw for examplw)
    Karaz-A-Karak discord: https://discord.gg/UZV6F5N
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,175
    Wont be too long till we get to roll chaos dwf
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,855
    Gotta say...

    Played the whole weekend as high elves.

    It’s like playing on easy mode. All those “hard” matchups - not hard to crack the code for most of them. Tons of extreme options; healing chariot spam.

    People suggesting this faction takes some crazy micro... not so much my friend. It’s just easy mode for the most part.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,855
    That comment is mostly in response to greens nonsense.

    But definitely noble chariots and lion chariots need to be toned down, and price can go down if need be. Chariot mechanics may not be high elf’s fault, but they have the best chariots in the game and the best healing. And I’m not talking about beating up on dwarfs here.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,972
    eumaies said:

    That comment is mostly in response to greens nonsense.

    But definitely noble chariots and lion chariots need to be toned down, and price can go down if need be. Chariot mechanics may not be high elf’s fault, but they have the best chariots in the game and the best healing. And I’m not talking about beating up on dwarfs here.

    I agree with you about the lion chariot but i haven't found noble be an issue anymore though Open to removal of MP for 50g drop, Star still needs a nerf at least a re-balance so its not a SE heal bot but used on units more.

    Wom Healing i got no issues with as thats something that takes resaurces.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,855

    eumaies said:

    That comment is mostly in response to greens nonsense.

    But definitely noble chariots and lion chariots need to be toned down, and price can go down if need be. Chariot mechanics may not be high elf’s fault, but they have the best chariots in the game and the best healing. And I’m not talking about beating up on dwarfs here.

    I agree with you about the lion chariot but i haven't found noble be an issue anymore though Open to removal of MP for 50g drop, Star still needs a nerf at least a re-balance so its not a SE heal bot but used on units more.

    Wom Healing i got no issues with as thats something that takes resaurces.
    Yeah honestly I don’t even think it’s about the amount of healing as much as it is about having chariot units so worthy of healing and just the basic ways chariots behave.

    Chariots with AP counter cavalry and they don’t lose models fast. Noble chariots and lion chariots. The only way to balance this without messing with their infantry performance I think is take away a lot of their ma stay and replace it with bonus Vs inf.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,855
    I agree though star healing larger units instead of chariot blobs is a much needed fix regardless.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349
    eumaies said:

    Gotta say...

    Played the whole weekend as high elves.

    It’s like playing on easy mode. All those “hard” matchups - not hard to crack the code for most of them. Tons of extreme options; healing chariot spam.

    People suggesting this faction takes some crazy micro... not so much my friend. It’s just easy mode for the most part.

    everyone can win ladder games. Not claiming HE are some crazy micro faction but claiming they are easy mode both without posting evidence and likely going vs tier 3 opponents seems a bit biased to me.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591
    From HW yesterday:

    Sooth lost with HE to Felkons GS
    Felkon lost with HE to Sooths SKV

    and on youtube from HW

    Gobboslayer lost with HE to enticitys VP

    So another 0:3 from what I watched today. I don't see dominance. Strong faction, no complaints, but I don't see over performance.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,855

    From HW yesterday:

    Sooth lost with HE to Felkons GS
    Felkon lost with HE to Sooths SKV

    and on youtube from HW

    Gobboslayer lost with HE to enticitys VP

    So another 0:3 from what I watched today. I don't see dominance. Strong faction, no complaints, but I don't see over performance.

    Yup and empire beat greenskins ;)

    Anyhoo the faction is for the most part fine. Just noble chariots continue to be too versatile and people are about to learn that white lion chariots are too. They can fix the chariots and/or fix star and the faction is otherwise ok.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591
    eumaies said:

    From HW yesterday:

    Sooth lost with HE to Felkons GS
    Felkon lost with HE to Sooths SKV

    and on youtube from HW

    Gobboslayer lost with HE to enticitys VP

    So another 0:3 from what I watched today. I don't see dominance. Strong faction, no complaints, but I don't see over performance.

    Yup and empire beat greenskins ;)

    Anyhoo the faction is for the most part fine. Just noble chariots continue to be too versatile and people are about to learn that white lion chariots are too. They can fix the chariots and/or fix star and the faction is otherwise ok.
    I agree, i would add teclis potion on parrot too because of toxicity. Not quite sure about chariots in isolation as any high enough hp models in a blob would do about the same work most likely (demiblob, trollblob, spawn blob, skv blob, tree blob, grailblob etc), but some adjustments there would be perfectly OK. It's a weird use of chariots.
  • FedakynFedakyn Registered Users Posts: 21
    edited September 9
    Yea HE are not a dominant faction, I think that this is pretty conclusive at this point. They are good but there are more versatile and stronger factions out there, I wonder sometimes if their strong healing is actually propping them up a bit myself, and hiding flaws.

    Still I feel Teclis's bird needs to cost more at the least, as probably to strong and a bit frustrating to fight. And chariots in the game are a little too good vs large in general right now across the board. But there are factions with more oppressive options. Honestly I feel we talk about them a bit too much especially when comparing them to say VP's out-sized advantages.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,353
    Fedakyn said:

    Yea HE are not a dominant faction, I think that this is pretty conclusive at this point. They are good but there are more versatile and stronger factions out there, I wonder sometimes if their strong healing is actually propping them up a bit myself, and hiding flaws.

    Still I feel Teclis's bird needs to cost more at the least, as probably to strong and a bit frustrating to fight. And chariots in the game are a little too good vs large in general right now across the board. But there are factions with more oppressive options. Honestly I feel we talk about them a bit too much especially when comparing them to say VP's out-sized advantages.

    HE are absolutely dominant and THAT is pretty conclusive at this point. The only ones saying otherwise are HE Mains, who have however proven time and again that they're deliberately downplaying the performance of their faction so as to avoid justified nerfs and bamboozle CA into buffing the faction further which succeeded as can be seem with the parrot and the completely undeserved buff to Ellyrian Reavers.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591
This discussion has been closed.