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Is Grom balanced?

Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,108
Chariot characters can often be overlooked when it comes to balancing due to bad stats but after playing both as and against him, I gotta ask, is he truly balanced? I don't have a definitive opinion other than the impression that he has a VERY rich kit.

He has:

- improved chariot animations that allow his chariot to feel more "killy" (this in a game where most chariots are getting progressively nerfed to be reasonable).

- an ability that lasts 30s and gives +5 MD, +4 LD and ItP in a medium AoE
- a 20s active ability that gives +16 LD, +24 MA and +30% weapon damage (essentially it's a better version of "Fight or Die" from Norsca for SAME price, in particular it's 2 extra seconds and a further +30% weapon damage on top of what Norsca has.
- regeneration
- an item that gives him +40 MA and +44% ward save for 30s with 120s cooldown.
- Axe of Grom let's not talk about it in this discussion, it's generally not worthwhile to pick it.

Grom alone naked is 1500g, with a decent kit (both abilities and the Banner - though you can skip the "Stand or Die" one many times) is 2036g.

Is this too good?

I ask because I see people often run him in front of a whole army and use his Regeneration + Lucky Banner to evade... any engagement really. I'm thinking if I was to do that with say Boris, I could get punished. Grom seems to always escape.

Thoughts?
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Comments

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,419
    Green0 said:

    Chariot characters can often be overlooked when it comes to balancing due to bad stats but after playing both as and against him, I gotta ask, is he truly balanced? I don't have a definitive opinion other than the impression that he has a VERY rich kit.

    He has:

    - improved chariot animations that allow his chariot to feel more "killy" (this in a game where most chariots are getting progressively nerfed to be reasonable).

    - an ability that lasts 30s and gives +5 MD, +4 LD and ItP in a medium AoE
    - a 20s active ability that gives +16 LD, +24 MA and +30% weapon damage (essentially it's a better version of "Fight or Die" from Norsca for SAME price, in particular it's 2 extra seconds and a further +30% weapon damage on top of what Norsca has.
    - regeneration
    - an item that gives him +40 MA and +44% ward save for 30s with 120s cooldown.
    - Axe of Grom let's not talk about it in this discussion, it's generally not worthwhile to pick it.

    Grom alone naked is 1500g, with a decent kit (both abilities and the Banner - though you can skip the "Stand or Die" one many times) is 2036g.

    Is this too good?

    I ask because I see people often run him in front of a whole army and use his Regeneration + Lucky Banner to evade... any engagement really. I'm thinking if I was to do that with say Boris, I could get punished. Grom seems to always escape.

    Thoughts?

    False.

  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 936

    Green0 said:

    Chariot characters can often be overlooked when it comes to balancing due to bad stats but after playing both as and against him, I gotta ask, is he truly balanced? I don't have a definitive opinion other than the impression that he has a VERY rich kit.

    He has:

    - improved chariot animations that allow his chariot to feel more "killy" (this in a game where most chariots are getting progressively nerfed to be reasonable).

    - an ability that lasts 30s and gives +5 MD, +4 LD and ItP in a medium AoE
    - a 20s active ability that gives +16 LD, +24 MA and +30% weapon damage (essentially it's a better version of "Fight or Die" from Norsca for SAME price, in particular it's 2 extra seconds and a further +30% weapon damage on top of what Norsca has.
    - regeneration
    - an item that gives him +40 MA and +44% ward save for 30s with 120s cooldown.
    - Axe of Grom let's not talk about it in this discussion, it's generally not worthwhile to pick it.

    Grom alone naked is 1500g, with a decent kit (both abilities and the Banner - though you can skip the "Stand or Die" one many times) is 2036g.

    Is this too good?

    I ask because I see people often run him in front of a whole army and use his Regeneration + Lucky Banner to evade... any engagement really. I'm thinking if I was to do that with say Boris, I could get punished. Grom seems to always escape.

    Thoughts?

    False.
    don't Quote the post
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 6,479
    Grom is not op. There far stronger chariot character and far weaker ones as well, and grom sits on middle.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,419

    Grom is not op. There far stronger chariot character and far weaker ones as well, and grom sits on middle.

    Right.

  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 572
    To me the only thing worth talking about him is the lucky banner. The rest is pretty well balanced imo. And to be honest I played him little since I find the mushroom fest from skarsnik or the goblin warboss way more handy to have most of the time.

    Lucky banner gives this 40% wardsave. I think it is a bit too much as it also puts him amongs the tankiest lord is the GS roster which I don't think he should belong too as he got regen to make him durable and also because of both him being really fast and the GS having a lot of ways to control the battlefield in order to save him.

    Like if someones follow this logic of giving a tool that grants so much wardsave to a fast, self-healing unit then when do we see a Lurthor harkon like character getting an equivalent of Vlad's ring (of course I exagerate but you get my point).

    He stills need a bit of wardsave to not get nuked in melee as he got 30 MD (35 if language of da boyz is active but whatever) but not to a level where he just laughs at range fire.

    How do dwarf players kill this thing ? Because he seems to be the perfect dwarf killer between being a chariot with occasional dueling abilities, a regen to heal through range pock and 40% wardsave to shield itself vs range burst?

    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 6,479
    edited September 19
    You know that peclis exisit right. the lahmian blood line lord exist .
    One has 44 % ward save on arcane phoenix
    The other have 22 % ward save on zomibe dragon.
    Or mazda another 22% on steagdon.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,076

    You know that peclis exisit right. the lahmian blood line lord exist .
    One has 44 % ward save on arcane phoenix
    The other have 22 % ward save on zomibe dragon.
    Or mazda another 22% on steagdon.

    yes thankyou, but this is a grom thread right?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,419
    Loupi_ said:

    You know that peclis exisit right. the lahmian blood line lord exist .
    One has 44 % ward save on arcane phoenix
    The other have 22 % ward save on zomibe dragon.
    Or mazda another 22% on steagdon.

    yes thankyou, but this is a grom thread right?
    Why nerf Grom when these other guys get to keep all of their stuff?

  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 209
    edited September 19
    Reym said:



    How do dwarf players kill this thing ? Because he seems to be the perfect dwarf killer between being a chariot with occasional dueling abilities, a regen to heal through range pock and 40% wardsave to shield itself vs range burst?

    Brimstones do flaming ap anti large which is perfect vs him, and if the Greenskins don't bring a flying lord then they have somewhat limited options to shutdown Dwarf flyers. You can go 2-4 Doom divers + Mogrubbs, but it still isn't easy if the Dwarf player pays attention to their gyros.

    So it can end up a bit of a mind game trying to guess how GS will handle your flyers, if they go Grom and Doom divers + Mogrubbs + couple archers and the dwarf player goes box + cannons with maybe 1 gyro instead then the dwarf player makes gains there cause GS have too much anti air. If they go Grom and Dwarf player goes 4-5 gyros then the GS player could be in big trouble. But if Dwarf player goes lots of gyros and get a flying lord then they will be in a rougher spot.

    Grom is still solid VS Dwarfs, but Dwarfs have options to punish picking him.
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 572
    edited September 19

    You know that peclis exisit right. the lahmian blood line lord exist .
    One has 44 % ward save on arcane phoenix
    The other have 22 % ward save on zomibe dragon.
    Or mazda another 22% on steagdon.

    Peclis is bonker in fact what I wrote for Grom could translate partially into peclis. Difference being that you replace the chariot and the occasionnal itp by a strong magic kit and the most terrifying parrot of warhammer.
    Lahmian as to use WoM to regen which yes does count (the hunger being situational)
    Same for the necrarch. Also both are pretty meh in melee offensive wise.
    Mazda is both very expensive and slow even on his steg.
    VC and even LM doesn't come close to GS when it comes to map controle.
    As @Loupi_ said it's about Grom
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 464
    Grom's fine, even in the context of his own roster's balance. He's nowhere close to the really OP lords.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,419
    blindjonn said:

    Grom's fine, even in the context of his own roster's balance. He's nowhere close to the really OP lords.

    His chariot needs to fly, then he'll be truly part of CA's favorite meta.

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,108

    You know that peclis exisit right. the lahmian blood line lord exist .
    One has 44 % ward save on arcane phoenix
    The other have 22 % ward save on zomibe dragon.
    Or mazda another 22% on steagdon.

    Peclis is problematic but it's for another thread. Regardless, his potion gives ONLY ward save, a small heal of 450 HP and iirc lasts shorter than Lucky Banner.

    It's worth noting that Lucky Banner turns Grom into a fairly good duelist, boosting his MA by 40 and bringing it into the 70s with some 30 Bvi. So it's not only Ward Save, but also a chariot lord behaving like a Kholek for a short period of time.

    Mazda doesn't have 22% Ward Save unless you meant Missile Resist. which is a fairly different type of resistance.

    Lahmian even with 22% resist. is a... good lord, nothing more.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,419
    Green0 said:

    You know that peclis exisit right. the lahmian blood line lord exist .
    One has 44 % ward save on arcane phoenix
    The other have 22 % ward save on zomibe dragon.
    Or mazda another 22% on steagdon.

    Peclis is problematic but it's for another thread. Regardless, his potion gives ONLY ward save, a small heal of 450 HP and iirc lasts shorter than Lucky Banner.

    It's worth noting that Lucky Banner turns Grom into a fairly good duelist, boosting his MA by 40 and bringing it into the 70s with some 30 Bvi. So it's not only Ward Save, but also a chariot lord behaving like a Kholek for a short period of time.

    Mazda doesn't have 22% Ward Save unless you meant Missile Resist. which is a fairly different type of resistance.

    Lahmian even with 22% resist. is a... good lord, nothing more.
    Disagree.

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 6,479
    GS hae lot of units that need balance pass if they all get balance pass, then all issues regarding grom will go away
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,357
    Grom is good but I havent seen him being broken

    probably as someone else had said, skarsnik has been overshadowing him right now in meta.

    When GS gets a nerf, perhaps provides a more clearer look about grom's status.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,108

    Grom is good but I havent seen him being broken

    probably as someone else had said, skarsnik has been overshadowing him right now in meta.

    When GS gets a nerf, perhaps provides a more clearer look about grom's status.

    yeah I agree, perhaps he seems OP because of the army that you can bring with him.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 20,359
    Post(s) removed. Stay on thread topic folks. If you've an issue on a unit balance outside of the topic, open your own thread.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 286



    When GS gets a nerf, perhaps provides a more clearer look about grom's status.

    IF GS get a nerf.

  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,067
    edited September 20
    Just a typical WH2 lord overflowing with useful stuff and high base cost compared to what you'd expect from his petty TT price and power. He's not OP for the cost imo, but wish other chariots had his attacking animations too instead of horses biting.

    100 armor is a bit over the top for that fat naked belly though.
    Post edited by mightygloin on
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 738
    edited September 20
    He's very strong, but I think only his Lucky Banner is a bit too much. +40 MA or 44% wardsave would be fine, but together it's a bit broken for a regenerating lord with that speed for that price. That's basically a potion of charoi plus favor of the fey together at once. He's brutal in some MUs, like WE. Possible nerfs:
    - Minus 4 speed (he's really fat) OR
    - Change wardsave to physical resistance OR
    - Change banner to +30 MA and 33% ward save.

    The last option would be my recommendation.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,873
    edited September 20
    U must be kidding, good vs welf
    He wont even live till the 3rd shot of kurnous

    I dont think having resist is a thing anymore. Clearly with thats given to teclics all bets r off already. U can go as much as u want and still be just less than 1/4 of what teclics can do

    Every character now have to be ramped up to teclics level.
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,725
    yst said:

    U must be kidding, good vs welf
    He wont even live till the 3rd shot of kurnous

    I dont think having resist is a thing anymore. Clearly with thats given to teclics all bets r off already. U can go as much as u want and still be just less than 1/4 of what teclics can do

    Every character now have to be ramped up to teclics level.

    His amazing vs WE
    Your way out of touch if you dont realize this
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,940
    edited September 20

    He's brutal in some MUs, like WE.

    He has no chance vs WE. If you are a bit lucky you can get 1400 hp damage on him just by double arrow of Kurnos just after game start.

    https://imgur.com/a/ePBMOGh
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,940
    edited September 20
    And it is not that good hit. I had seen 1700 damage from double Kurnos instant at game start. Like this one and it is not even best hit. If you know how to use Kurnos Grom are sitting duck.
    https://imgur.com/ieMmdar
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,940
    edited September 20


    His amazing vs WE
    Your way out of touch if you dont realize this

    Double Kurnos annihilate him due to chariot mount. I mean GS are good vs WE. But Grom are risky pick here.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,873
    tank3487 said:

    Double Kurnos annihilate him due to chariot mount. I mean GS are good vs WE. But Grom are risky pick here.

    Heh u didnt get his meaning. What he meant was that of coz hes good vs welf. If im playing welf Id be ramping grom up to high heavens so every noob and their pet would autopick grom.

    Out of touch *wink* *wink* got cha bro


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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,108
    yst said:

    tank3487 said:

    Double Kurnos annihilate him due to chariot mount. I mean GS are good vs WE. But Grom are risky pick here.

    Heh u didnt get his meaning. What he meant was that of coz hes good vs welf. If im playing welf Id be ramping grom up to high heavens so every noob and their pet would autopick grom.

    Out of touch *wink* *wink* got cha bro


    in all fairness I think you can dodge that to a degree so in an actual game u maybe take full damage from the 1st one and 30% from the other 2.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,873
    edited September 20
    Green0 said:

    in all fairness I think you can dodge that to a degree so in an actual game u maybe take full damage from the 1st one and 30% from the other 2.

    Thats fine lol, i got 9 shots, only need 5 to kill.

    Or he can come closer and eat net + waywatchers, or die at 600m his choice

    Prolly should save waywatch ammo, net + 2 stalkers and glade arrow is nextttt game already
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,108
    yst said:

    Green0 said:

    in all fairness I think you can dodge that to a degree so in an actual game u maybe take full damage from the 1st one and 30% from the other 2.

    Thats fine lol, i got 9 shots, only need 5 to kill.

    Or he can come closer and eat net + waywatchers, or die at 600m his choice

    Prolly should save waywatch ammo, net + 2 stalkers and glade arrow is nextttt game already
    well I agree with you for once. I think AoK is too spammable given how long range and high damage it has and can be very abusive, particularly when fired from Stalk onto key elements of the enemy army such as an Emp Battle Wizard on horse or stuff like that.
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