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The Problems Of Fast, Armored SEMs Are CA's Workarounds

ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 26,342
Fast, armored SEMs break several conventions of the game, being able to use their mobility to avoid damage while also having high protection, a large HP pool and not losing DPS until death or shatter. There's no other unit type that combines all of these aspects at once and so these SEMs stand out.

Instead of adressing this, CA decided to work around it by buffing ranged DPS and proliferating an increasing amount of hexes, snares and slows since you actually need both to damage fast, armored SEMs reliably. Then they didn't bother to combine these workarounds with any sort of scaling, so both are even more effective on anything that isn't a fast, armored SEM, completely breaking the game and creating a stifling, unsatisfying meta where it's all about cycle-charging, withering ranged firepower and ability spam, greatly reducing the amount of viable builds and strategies.

So when CA actually finds the courage to adress the SEMs directly and acknowledges that no SEM should combine high HP, high protection and high mobility at the same time (only ever two of these, while lacking in one), they now also need to work on the "workarounds", tone down ranged DPS and curb all the point&click stuff. Every patch where they fail to do so entrenches this state of affairs further and it's doing the game and the universe it's adapted from no justice. Do we really want the next WE content to be ever more tilted towards even more ranged DPS and more Pray of Anat-Raema type abilities? I for one would prefer the game to actually reverse that trend and stop having the entire game revolve around a small number of specific outliers.

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Comments

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,832
    Those r ok tbh.

    Worst aspect of this game is the extreme moronic 5-10 mins of arrow dodging idioicy.
    Nothing more stupid than 2 armies of skirmishers wasting time dodging like morons
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  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 351
    The game is not broken it’s in a fairly balanced state overall. Especially when you consider there is 15 factions to balance. Just because you don’t enjoy the the current meta doesn’t mean others don’t. What you want is the entire game redesigned around your idea of fun. Which isn’t going to happen in this title best you can hope for is a big meta change in game 3. You can make a thread every week about the current meta but it will change nothing.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,057

    Fast, armored SEMs break several conventions of the game, being able to use their mobility to avoid damage while also having high protection, a large HP pool and not losing DPS until death or shatter. There's no other unit type that combines all of these aspects at once and so these SEMs stand out.

    Instead of adressing this, CA decided to work around it by buffing ranged DPS and proliferating an increasing amount of hexes, snares and slows since you actually need both to damage fast, armored SEMs reliably. Then they didn't bother to combine these workarounds with any sort of scaling, so both are even more effective on anything that isn't a fast, armored SEM, completely breaking the game and creating a stifling, unsatisfying meta where it's all about cycle-charging, withering ranged firepower and ability spam, greatly reducing the amount of viable builds and strategies.

    So when CA actually finds the courage to adress the SEMs directly and acknowledges that no SEM should combine high HP, high protection and high mobility at the same time (only ever two of these, while lacking in one), they now also need to work on the "workarounds", tone down ranged DPS and curb all the point&click stuff. Every patch where they fail to do so entrenches this state of affairs further and it's doing the game and the universe it's adapted from no justice. Do we really want the next WE content to be ever more tilted towards even more ranged DPS and more Pray of Anat-Raema type abilities? I for one would prefer the game to actually reverse that trend and stop having the entire game revolve around a small number of specific outliers.

    finally a good suggestion by you I'm all up for nerfing Skaven you are right their point & click abilities are too strong and their ranged too effective.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 174
    yst said:

    Those r ok tbh.

    Worst aspect of this game is the extreme moronic 5-10 mins of arrow dodging idioicy.
    Nothing more stupid than 2 armies of skirmishers wasting time dodging like morons

    The way arrows drift through the air you'd think they were throwing paper planes at each other.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,832
    ^ so frikking stupid. Phoenix by far the most cancerous one, just when u think u cant get more toxic than allarial on eagle, they surprise u.

    Then u have the all time stupids, shadow warrior dueling with waywatchers. Yay lets waste our lives dodging arrows
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  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,342
    Green0 said:

    Fast, armored SEMs break several conventions of the game, being able to use their mobility to avoid damage while also having high protection, a large HP pool and not losing DPS until death or shatter. There's no other unit type that combines all of these aspects at once and so these SEMs stand out.

    Instead of adressing this, CA decided to work around it by buffing ranged DPS and proliferating an increasing amount of hexes, snares and slows since you actually need both to damage fast, armored SEMs reliably. Then they didn't bother to combine these workarounds with any sort of scaling, so both are even more effective on anything that isn't a fast, armored SEM, completely breaking the game and creating a stifling, unsatisfying meta where it's all about cycle-charging, withering ranged firepower and ability spam, greatly reducing the amount of viable builds and strategies.

    So when CA actually finds the courage to adress the SEMs directly and acknowledges that no SEM should combine high HP, high protection and high mobility at the same time (only ever two of these, while lacking in one), they now also need to work on the "workarounds", tone down ranged DPS and curb all the point&click stuff. Every patch where they fail to do so entrenches this state of affairs further and it's doing the game and the universe it's adapted from no justice. Do we really want the next WE content to be ever more tilted towards even more ranged DPS and more Pray of Anat-Raema type abilities? I for one would prefer the game to actually reverse that trend and stop having the entire game revolve around a small number of specific outliers.

    finally a good suggestion by you I'm all up for nerfing Skaven you are right their point & click abilities are too strong and their ranged too effective.
    Hush.

    The game is not broken it’s in a fairly balanced state overall. Especially when you consider there is 15 factions to balance. Just because you don’t enjoy the the current meta doesn’t mean others don’t. What you want is the entire game redesigned around your idea of fun. Which isn’t going to happen in this title best you can hope for is a big meta change in game 3. You can make a thread every week about the current meta but it will change nothing.

    It's broken because the balance is phony and centered around a small amount of outlying aspects.

    My idea is simple:

    All SEM should be judged by whether they combine all three aspects I mentioned, protection (armor+MD+resistances), HP pool and mobility and if they do, nerf one of these. Dragons and Sphinxes could do with a HP cut and Mammoths with a speed nerf.

    Take Giants as the opposite of these, they're lacking in two aspects, low protection and low mobility and OK-ish HP. You could actually upgrade one of these to make them less of an extreme niche pick.

    Ranged DPS should be regulated by prolonging reload speed. I myself am experimenting with +100% for skirmishers and +25% for artillery and found the results more satisfying than the current stats.

    Also, let's drop the "it would be too much work" excuse. None of use here would have to do any work as it would be all on CA and frankly, I'd rather have a bunch of patches shaking the new meta out than carry the current one any longer.

    And you know, even if this was for WH3, they'd still have to start somewhere. It's also not that the current issues aren't well-known, they must have noticed how tournament play has to bend over backwards to accomodate for the phony balance CA has provided.

  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 727
    This again. This gross generalization of SEMs is silly: this game is filled with SEMs that are completely different, from Medusas to Steam Tanks to Star Dragons. The vast majority of SEMs in this game are not problematic. If you simply don't like powerful monsters, you should play a different Total War. Warhammer is all about legendary lords on powerful monsters leading their armies.

    I think all we need is:
    - The leadership penalty of fliers without ground support should be cumulative without resetting on ground contact, similar to the tournament rule to stay engaged when only SEMs are left.
    - Charge defence vs large should provide considerably more knockback resistance and mass. Same for unit ranks. Braced spears should not fall over when charged by cav so they can attack back instantly.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,832
    A lot comes down with insanely slow projectile speed.

    Phoenix is about 99% dodge rate
    Eagles 95%
    yada yada
    down to the stupid giant which is about as autohit as it gets with arrow.

    Faster arrows would shift this toxic meta quite a bit. Changes nothing to giant which he gets hit eitherway.

    Also hitbox, eagle been broken for years, unfortunately only the 2 most toxic faction have it, sadly favoritism preevails
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  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 1,686
    yst said:

    Also hitbox, eagle been broken for years, unfortunately only the 2 most toxic faction have it, sadly favoritism preevails

    Wait do you mean GW favourtism or CA? CA didn't decide who got Eagles and who didn't.
  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 268
    edited September 21
    Game is perfectly balanced when it comes to what units types.

    SEM are clearly the least picked unit type in entire game yet SEM crusaiders what their pickrate be close to zero and all games be two lines of melee infantry clashing into each other. Truly the amount of skill and strategy involved in such games is great.

    Now, why does noone get so concerned when they see something like 9 units of chaff picked regularly by some factions? Infantry OP?
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,832


    Wait do you mean GW favourtism or CA? CA didn't decide who got Eagles and who didn't.

    Doesnt mean they get a free pass having hitbox smaller than pegasus mount.

    CA also decide terradon should have hitbox as big as dragons so yea
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  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 1,686
    Can we add a rule to these forums where you have to read the post before responding?

    FAST ARMOURED SEMS.

    This would mean units like Carnosaurs, Khemrian Warsphinxes, Arachnoroks, Star Dragons and more.
    NOT Giants, Cygors, Rogue Idol, Treemen and more.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 1,686
    yst said:


    Wait do you mean GW favourtism or CA? CA didn't decide who got Eagles and who didn't.

    Doesnt mean they get a free pass having hitbox smaller than pegasus mount.

    CA also decide terradon should have hitbox as big as dragons so yea
    I was asking a question dude, though I guess that answers it. Not everyone's part of the Elfquisition or whatever you call it.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,342
    edited September 21
    It's literally the first sentence in my OP. The first words even.

  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 840

    This again. This gross generalization of SEMs is silly: this game is filled with SEMs that are completely different, from Medusas to Steam Tanks to Star Dragons. The vast majority of SEMs in this game are not problematic. If you simply don't like powerful monsters, you should play a different Total War. Warhammer is all about legendary lords on powerful monsters leading their armies.

    I think all we need is:
    - The leadership penalty of fliers without ground support should be cumulative without resetting on ground contact, similar to the tournament rule to stay engaged when only SEMs are left.
    - Charge defence vs large should provide considerably more knockback resistance and mass. Same for unit ranks. Braced spears should not fall over when charged by cav so they can attack back instantly.

    OP specifically said Fast, armored SEMs. How is that a «  gross generalization » ?
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,832
    edited September 21

    I was asking a question dude, though I guess that answers it. Not everyone's part of the Elfquisition or whatever you call it.

    Im just answering, I mean seriously no one think its weird why eagle the largest of the peg, terradon have the smallest hitbox?! Like really ppl think its normal for pegasus to take more missile fire than eagle? and somehow terradon taking as much as 2-3x more than eagle while being smaller? Also why is phoenix hitbox that small, when manticores and all other non elf air monster get down by arrows faster. I mean other than the usual favouritism theres 0 logic whatsoever why the scenario is so unbalanced
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  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 268
    Fast or not, armoured or not SEM as a unit type don't break anything thus this thread has nothing to do with balance.

    As @Noob_for_Life said this sound more like an attempt to reform game into something OP happend to idealize and this ideal does not include any presence of SEM in the game apparently. Definately does not belong in "balancing suggestinos".
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,342
    edited September 21
    outrage4 said:

    Fast or not, armoured or not SEM as a unit type don't break anything thus this thread has nothing to do with balance.

    As @Noob_for_Life said this sound more like an attempt to reform game into something OP happend to idealize and this ideal does not include any presence of SEM in the game apparently. Definately does not belong in "balancing suggestinos".

    A very unfair and very biased reading of my post. It seems you didn't even read most of the title of the thread.

  • TexacoV2TexacoV2 Registered Users Posts: 227

    The game is not broken it’s in a fairly balanced state overall. Especially when you consider there is 15 factions to balance. Just because you don’t enjoy the the current meta doesn’t mean others don’t. What you want is the entire game redesigned around your idea of fun. Which isn’t going to happen in this title best you can hope for is a big meta change in game 3. You can make a thread every week about the current meta but it will change nothing.

    If the game was not broken tournaments would not need like 14 pages of rules.
  • TexacoV2TexacoV2 Registered Users Posts: 227
    I don't think fast and armored SEM are as broken as people make it out to be, they certainly have their issues don't get me wrong. And they have been dominating WH for a long time, mainly because infantry can't do anything against them and they don't lose damage as their HP drops and thus became a cycle charging pain in the late game. The only way to beat SEM is with other large.
    I think a solution is to implement the table top rule where they lose stats as they take damage. This rule exists for just that reason.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,057
    outrage4 said:

    Game is perfectly balanced when it comes to what units types.

    SEM are clearly the least picked unit type in entire game yet SEM crusaiders what their pickrate be close to zero and all games be two lines of melee infantry clashing into each other. Truly the amount of skill and strategy involved in such games is great.

    Now, why does noone get so concerned when they see something like 9 units of chaff picked regularly by some factions? Infantry OP?

    glad someone says this, units like Skavenslaves have been spammed regardless of matchup for a very long time now and are brought in 6+ quantity in every game. I think even when it comes to infantry, one should have to think a little harder and not instalock what in the end is an underpriced unit and spam it.

    There are other examples also, Coast infantry, Peasant Mob (though Brets are not exactly top tier so it's fine I guess), Tomb King basic Skeletons are all basic infantry that are regularly spammed and give too much value for the price.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,653
    edited September 21
    there is no problem, sun dragon fastest dragon a crap unit.... at 95 speed, chaos dragon 90 speed way lower pick rate than kholoex or other chaos options.... its not speed its other stats such as MD and cost that are an issue, i definetly seen leviathon chosen more than goose in VP roster also.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 351
    TexacoV2 said:

    The game is not broken it’s in a fairly balanced state overall. Especially when you consider there is 15 factions to balance. Just because you don’t enjoy the the current meta doesn’t mean others don’t. What you want is the entire game redesigned around your idea of fun. Which isn’t going to happen in this title best you can hope for is a big meta change in game 3. You can make a thread every week about the current meta but it will change nothing.

    If the game was not broken tournaments would not need like 14 pages of rules.
    I’ve seen tournament players that think the game is fine just with CA unit caps. An if you read discord banner rules are discussing lowering restrictions on SEM as majority of players don’t like how strict the rules currently are on them. So the fact that tournament rules exist doesn’t mean game is broken.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,342
    TexacoV2 said:

    I don't think fast and armored SEM are as broken as people make it out to be, they certainly have their issues don't get me wrong. And they have been dominating WH for a long time, mainly because infantry can't do anything against them and they don't lose damage as their HP drops and thus became a cycle charging pain in the late game. The only way to beat SEM is with other large.
    I think a solution is to implement the table top rule where they lose stats as they take damage. This rule exists for just that reason.

    The problem is how CA decided to integrate fast, armored SEMs into the game, by breaking other aspects of it. Ranged firepower is too oppressive and various point&click abilities too prominent to the point that the entire meta bends around them.

    It didn't need to be like that if CA had actually followed the simple rule that no SEM can combine high mobility, protection and HP at once.

  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 351
    innerp said:

    there is one thing this thread has definately proved, the flag button needs to be removed asap

    Or maybe the people misusing it should just be banned.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,342

    TexacoV2 said:

    The game is not broken it’s in a fairly balanced state overall. Especially when you consider there is 15 factions to balance. Just because you don’t enjoy the the current meta doesn’t mean others don’t. What you want is the entire game redesigned around your idea of fun. Which isn’t going to happen in this title best you can hope for is a big meta change in game 3. You can make a thread every week about the current meta but it will change nothing.

    If the game was not broken tournaments would not need like 14 pages of rules.
    I’ve seen tournament players that think the game is fine just with CA unit caps. An if you read discord banner rules are discussing lowering restrictions on SEM as majority of players don’t like how strict the rules currently are on them. So the fact that tournament rules exist doesn’t mean game is broken.
    Yes and some people don't like the offside rule in Soccer and yet there's no chance it'll get repealed because the alternative is worse since while we'd get more goals (which some people think equals more excitement), strategies would degenerate into camping at the opponent's goal and waiting for long passes.

    And we already know what unrestricted SEM usage in tournaments was like and it was worse than what we have now too.

  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 268
    Maybe make flags non anonymous? This is derailing into flag balance thread...
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 427

    The problem is how CA decided to integrate fast, armored SEMs into the game, by breaking other aspects of it. Ranged firepower is too oppressive and various point&click abilities too prominent to the point that the entire meta bends around them.

    The support that ranged gets is really excessive, it was remarkable how many ranged units the Empire got in The Hunter and the Beast, when there are so many other missing Empire units. Nets and rampage abilities are also very strong and very annoying, they should be more expensive.
    TexacoV2 said:

    I think a solution is to implement the table top rule where they lose stats as they take damage.

    This is a fix that will work, this or worse vigour penalties. Combine it with reworked healing, then ranged can be softened and balanced army compositions will be incentivised.

  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,321

    there is no problem, sun dragon fastest dragon a crap unit.... at 95 speed, chaos dragon 90 speed way lower pick rate than kholoex or other chaos options.... its not speed its other stats such as MD and cost that are an issue, i definetly seen leviathon chosen more than goose in VP roster also.

    Outside of the main topic, tbf vp goose is a lot weaker than vc goose and flying luthor is so amazing it is pointless to take the goose alone
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,832
    outrage4 said:

    Maybe make flags non anonymous? This is derailing into flag balance thread...

    They use to be. Then it got changed to hide the flagger.

    Anyway this thread isnt gonna survive the next 24hr anyway the way its moving
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