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Please don't make the Northern Tribes horde factions.

KrunchKrunch Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 4,522
Title, basically. I appreciate the effor that CA has made over the years, but please, please never make the nomadic tribes horde factions. Horde factions have never, ever been fun, and frankly IMO Horde style gameplay doesn't fit the tribes of this game. Hordes made sense in Attila as they were used by the germans to go from one region where they were homeless to another, amassing strength and conquering their way to new lands. But for actual steppe tribes the gameplay doesn't make sense.

The great steppe empires have always had some locations they governed on the steppe, whether they be cities, important locations and sites, and camp grounds that could basically be steppe cities that grew and shrank through the year, but still lay in the same general area(with perhaps some permanent structures). And of course, many steppe tribes, from the Magyars in the west to the Khitans in the far east, would end up conquering and ruling sedentary land. 3K should be no different, as the sort of first third of the "Period of Disunion" as it is known basically ends with the loss of Northern China to the steppe tribes. These tribes did not burn northern china to the ground, they conquered it, ruled it, and eventually got changed by it.
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Comments

  • IchonIchon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,221
    edited September 2020
    I think hordes need some way to keep line of sight or some control over previously conquered regions. There are 3 main ways using existing mechanics to do this;

    Vassalize former enemy or create new settled horde factions

    Hybdrid settlements similar to Wood Elves or Norsca in Warhammer where the horde faction can partially build up some settlements but have many limits.

    Leave behind a hidden settlement/cultural quarter like Pirate Coves or Skaven Undercities.


    I personally find the 3rd option the most appealing for Hordes and the easiest to differentiate between various Horde factions and a nice compromise of lack of map control but retain line of sight and other benefits or penalties CA could create.

    For example, some Hordes could leave older or wounded warriors behind whose presence increases diplomacy with the faction which comes to control the Horde's previously conquered settlement and gives a limited line of sight and perhaps even some resources or at minimum the ability to trade.

    A different Horde faction might leave a single tribe from the Horde out in the wilds of a region who raid continuously until rooted out by an enemy faction but in the interim giving wide line of sight, increased movement for the Horde factions armies, and faster recruitment/replenishment so a Horde could retreat into a previously conquered region and raise a new army or heal more quickly.

    Also, some type of limited settlement would slow the grind of repeated circular conquests of the same regions vs infinite free AI resettlement a couple turns after a Horde army leaving a region.

    Aesthetically less of the map would be in ruins and other settled factions could benefit from allying with the Horde if the Horde had stance they could use in military allies territory that had a Horde settlement along with the controlling factions settlement that wasn't a raiding stance which hurt diplomatic relations.

    Yet another option might be Hordes can only settle in a certain type of region- grasslands/pastures/hills so that Hordes could control settlements in those regions like a settled faction but would act like a Horde outside of those regions. That would result in a patchwork settlement pattern where Hordes can only settle 1 or 2 regions every other province and would need to make an ally/vassale to settle the uninhabitable regions or periodically raid and clear out the settlers. Perhaps even an option in the tech tree or a ruler's dilemma at around the 75% campaign complete stage (turn 80-120 usually) to abandon the horde culture and settle permanently at the cost of antagonizing the factions which share provinces with the Horde and are now in competition with the Horde for land and the loss of the ability to recruit a few elite units and any mobility/replenishment advantages from being a Horde.


    YouTube, it takes over your mind and guides you to strange places like tutorials on how to talk to a giraffe.
  • NykyusNykyus Registered Users Posts: 64
    The territory of modern Mongolia should be made a territory where no foot troops can enter, only cavalry. All the infantry must die very, very quickly. Historically, no settled civilization could have developed and settled in the Gobi desert
  • NykyusNykyus Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited September 2020
    It would also be realistic if large Steppe empires were falling apart due to slow communication. For example, shanyu gives an order, and the connection reaches Seven Rivers and the Altai in six months. Because of the slow communications of the steppe Empire fostered other centers of communication, which eventually turned into a separate state and led to the collapse.

    Nomads are characterized by autumn-spring migrations.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872
    Can someone explain what is meant by "horde faction?" I'm not very familiar with the term.
  • NykyusNykyus Registered Users Posts: 64
    These are probably factions whose troops move forever from one side of the map to another and do not form cities. This was not the case in reality, because the main wealth is pastures.
    No one will willingly give up their pastures or leave them. Exception 2: 1) a strong enemy attacks, killing up to 80-90% of the population, 2) severe drought and livestock deaths. There may also be snowy winters when livestock cannot get food from under the snow. Then the people perish.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872
    Nykyus said:

    These are probably factions whose troops move forever from one side of the map to another and do not form cities. This was not the case in reality, because the main wealth is pastures.
    No one will willingly give up their pastures or leave them. Exception 2: 1) a strong enemy attacks, killing up to 80-90% of the population, 2) severe drought and livestock deaths. There may also be snowy winters when livestock cannot get food from under the snow. Then the people perish.

    Aren't you gonna run out of supplies if you play like that in 3k?
  • Avenger237Avenger237 Registered Users Posts: 247

    Can someone explain what is meant by "horde faction?" I'm not very familiar with the term.

    Explained in these vids



  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359
    The Northern Barbarians settled down and established their own Kingdoms in China so they should be able to do the same in the game.

    I could see 1 faction being a horde faction to offer a unique gameplay, but Wuhuan, Xianbei and Xiongnu should be able to settle down and build empires.

    Maybe CA could make the Xiliang a horde faction?
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872
    ArneSo said:

    Maybe CA could make the Xiliang a horde faction?

    Pretty sure that Ma Teng starts with his own settlements in Liang province too.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359

    ArneSo said:

    Maybe CA could make the Xiliang a horde faction?

    Pretty sure that Ma Teng starts with his own settlements in Liang province too.
    Yes but I mean a pure Xiliang tribe faction. Right now they are just 2 units for Big Dong and Lü Bu.
  • united84united84 Registered Users Posts: 832
    There is a reason why they are called nomadic peoples. They have no permanent homes and they move from places to places. Pretty sure we learnt about this in history class about the tribes living in the steppes.

    Besides, the first "descendents" of these savages that formed the northern kingdoms were semi-assimilated into Han Culture. Some of them even adopt Han Chinese Surname especially " Liu " to legitimize their rule and that was after the collapse of the Jin Dynasty.

    I think it makes sense for Northern tribes to be part of the Horde because they were hordes and like most of the proponents of diversity. It will add more diversity to the game :)
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359
    edited September 2020
    united84 said:

    There is a reason why they are called nomadic peoples. They have no permanent homes and they move from places to places. Pretty sure we learnt about this in history class about the tribes living in the steppes.

    Besides, the first "descendents" of these savages that formed the northern kingdoms were semi-assimilated into Han Culture. Some of them even adopt Han Chinese Surname especially " Liu " to legitimize their rule and that was after the collapse of the Jin Dynasty.

    I think it makes sense for Northern tribes to be part of the Horde because they were hordes and like most of the proponents of diversity. It will add more diversity to the game :)

    You mean like the Steppe Nomads in Rome 2? Oh wait...

    No the Steppe nomads should definitely be able to settle down and their ultimate goal should be to form new kingdoms within China, just like they did during the Jin dynasty.

    This debate is pointless because we already know that we will get a Northern expansion, which means expanding the map into the territory of Wuhuan and Xianbei. Why expanding the map and add more settlements when those factions can’t settle anyways? 😅🤷‍♂️
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872
    ArneSo said:

    Yes but I mean a pure Xiliang tribe faction. Right now they are just 2 units for Big Dong and Lü Bu.

    There are already Xi Liang factions in the game under Ma Teng and Han Sui, so why can't those factions be expanded as the basis of the Qiang culture DLC? Dong Zhuo was also known as a Xi Liang General so he can share some of the features of Xi Liang as well making him a hybrid of a Han-Xi Liang faction. The Liang rebellion is also a XI Liang rebellion started by the Qiang people so there is plenty of material to go from there if you also want a pure Xiliang tribal faction on top of the existing Xi Liang warlords in the game.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359

    ArneSo said:

    Yes but I mean a pure Xiliang tribe faction. Right now they are just 2 units for Big Dong and Lü Bu.

    There are already Xi Liang factions in the game under Ma Teng and Han Sui, so why can't those factions be expanded as the basis of the Qiang culture DLC? Dong Zhuo was also known as a Xi Liang General so he can share some of the features of Xi Liang as well making him a hybrid of a Han-Xi Liang faction. The Liang rebellion is also a XI Liang rebellion started by the Qiang people so there is plenty of material to go from there if you also want a pure Xiliang tribal faction on top of the existing Xi Liang warlords in the game.
    They are normal Han factions with some Qiang units. Still basically the same as any other Han faction.

    What I‘m talking about is a Xiliang faction as part of the Steppe Nomads Culture.

    Maybe they fit better for a Qiang Expansion Pack.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872
    ArneSo said:

    They are normal Han factions with some Qiang units. Still basically the same as any other Han faction.

    They are for now but with a Qiang expansion pack those factions can be changed to have unique cultures, tech trees, and all that stuff so they are going to be different from the Han factions.
    ArneSo said:

    What I‘m talking about is a Xiliang faction as part of the Steppe Nomads Culture.

    Maybe they fit better for a Qiang Expansion Pack.

    I don't see why the XiLiang factions should be part of the Steppe Nomads culture, they are Qiang.
  • NykyusNykyus Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited September 2020
    In any case, I want to see 5-6 completely different cultures: 1) Turkic culture - Uyghurs (khoikhu), yueban, possibly Chinese Xiongnu in Ordos, the ancestors of the Kyrgyz - Dinglins in the Sayan mountains and in the Minusinsk basin, 2) Mongolian culture - Shiwei in Northern Manchuria, 3) Xianbei culture, 4) Tungus-Manchu culture - Northern Manchuria the Eastern part is the Mukri tribe. The Mongols in those days were not nomads, most likely. In the West, people with tattoos: Indo - European tribes - Tochars, Iranian tribes- Saka. In the end, add the Yakut culture, because we are not Paleoasians, but lived together with the Uighurs in those distant times, then settled near lake Baikal. The Sayan and Altai Turks are not pure nomads, because they have adapted to live in the forest.
  • NykyusNykyus Registered Users Posts: 64
    Add separately the Wusun culture that belong to the Xirong culture. They will be green-eyed Blonds.
  • NykyusNykyus Registered Users Posts: 64
    I want to see how the ancestors of the Japanese swim from Manchuria to Japan, to the island of Kyushu, where the Ainu, bearded people live.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359

    ArneSo said:

    They are normal Han factions with some Qiang units. Still basically the same as any other Han faction.

    They are for now but with a Qiang expansion pack those factions can be changed to have unique cultures, tech trees, and all that stuff so they are going to be different from the Han factions.
    ArneSo said:

    What I‘m talking about is a Xiliang faction as part of the Steppe Nomads Culture.

    Maybe they fit better for a Qiang Expansion Pack.

    I don't see why the XiLiang factions should be part of the Steppe Nomads culture, they are Qiang.
    CA won’t change existing core factions. Maybe Han Sui will be added as a hybrid faction. He is likely to be the FLC for a Western Barbarians Pack.

    That’s what I just said, maybe make them part of the Qiang if they will be their own culture.
  • NykyusNykyus Registered Users Posts: 64
    Request. Make our Yakut costume the national costume of the Xiongnu. Because it is the oldest. The Sayan-Turks were influenced by the Oirat Culture and the Qin Empire of the 17th century, while the Mongols were first mentioned from the 10th century. The Central Asian Turks were influenced by Muslims, And the Yugurs (or Saryg Uyghurs) by Mongol Buddhists. We are the only ones who have kept our faith - Tengrianism-pure; all the others have become either Buddhists or Muslims.

  • JerroserJerroser Registered Users Posts: 419
    I think the idea of them retaining some control over the regions they take does have some merit although what I feel they should do is make it so in their own territory they can hold a region without needing to create a proper settlement and get a kind of mobile camp where you can pick on of multiple sites within a commandery for it be based in and it occupies the whole of the commandery on its own. Then when they occupy Han territory they can use the cities as normal but have penalties to public order and corruption. As I feel this better resents that fact that although they could relocate easily and mostly had mobile settlements they did still occupy territory and had lands that they considered to be theirs.

    Perhaps it could also be designed so like Shamoke you have a choice for some of the factions to stick to their own objectives and form a proper Steppe Kingdom north of China or follow the route of becoming one of the three Emperors. Maybe with a branching tech tree that allows you to pick one of these two paths to go down and opting to make it easier to hold Han cities at the expense of loosing some of the benefits the Steppe regions.
  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,593
    I agree, no hordes please... if anything, make the Xianbei/Xiongnu and Wuhuan armies have Ger-cities side by side with the army as well as Settled areas on the map... but no Horde Only factions please, it completely sucks because it's never done right.
    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,593
    Nykyus said:

    Request. Make our Yakut costume the national costume of the Xiongnu. Because it is the oldest. The Sayan-Turks were influenced by the Oirat Culture and the Qin Empire of the 17th century, while the Mongols were first mentioned from the 10th century. The Central Asian Turks were influenced by Muslims, And the Yugurs (or Saryg Uyghurs) by Mongol Buddhists. We are the only ones who have kept our faith - Tengrianism-pure; all the others have become either Buddhists or Muslims.


    The Yakuts were officially mentioned into existence during only the 7th century. Just as the Donghu (ancestors of we Mongols) were also recorded during the 7th century. You have no right to claim that only Yakuts should represent our peoples. The Xiongnu were a Confederation of Tribes, not just Turkic ones... just as the Xianbei would be a federation of not only Mongolic tribes.

    Tengger is not only represented by the Yakut, but also by the Buryat, the Tuvan and some in Mongolia. They practice "Buddhism" as a more complete form. Tenggerism is not an organised faith, no head controls it, no texts translate it. Many Mongolians who do not have a spiritual tie with Tengger adopt a partial Buddhism called Lamaism with primarily practices the old Mongol religious customs that practice Tengrism.

    Just because our people accepted all faiths as equal paths to the One God, does not mean we "abandoned it".
    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • MasterSlayeXMasterSlayeX Registered Users Posts: 377
    They should be able to settle settlements. Prehaps unlike Hanic tribes buildings their population growth is much harder due to their territory being based in the desert . To control regions in the deserts prehaps they need to set down an settlement . Being only able to settle a settlement within a certain distance of each other in the north. Their play style should be being able to have a lot of smaller settlements (capped at level 3-5 or something prehaps) but have perks of building and moving settlements even in land not on the desert allowing for very easy deployment of soldiers and placement of such bases in choke points . Though in non desert areas they should be limited to 1 per provance .

    They should be able to take land in China but prehaps not control the buildings that go on in there and only get a %of the income and food (to encourage a player to build a tribe village there) only being able to build 1 thing in the han/Nanman towns of a defensive building giving the garrisons tribe defensive units to help in defending hanic towns . If it’s not built and upgraded they will get rebellions happen (only if a village is set up and the building is maxed (prehaps at 3 for the tribes?) then happiness will be negative ) It should be tough to get a foot hold in China after all . Tribal villages also considering this would be a more offensive play style of a faction should have weaker defenders like the Nanman defending their villages . I feel they should play wide not tall

    I actually think the challenge of the tribes should be to overcome the Great Wall of China a wall with the toughest defenders and defense force in the game with some of the northern han owning gates of the wall for their first victory condition . The second being to conqueror a large portion of China .

    I disagree with it being calvery only for the desert as there’s already a lot of problems with infantry in the game . A debuff for infantry in the desert like maybe very slowly losing soldiers per turn when not encamped . Considering infantry more so spear infantry are the counter for horses they need to be some what usable . This of course only applying to anyone non Northern tribe and ma teng (il get more into him in a bit)

    Finally northern han factions like gongsun zan and ma teng should get an extra mechanic to be able to deal more with the tribes . Gongsun zans white horse were known as scared animals in the north so prehaps the horsemen giving the tribes a small morale penalty if in range of the horse could work

    Ma teng being an expert forager as the game says should be able to replenish lost infantry to the desert when camping in the desert
  • NykyusNykyus Registered Users Posts: 64
    The Yakuts were officially mentioned into existence during only the 7th century. Just as the Donghu (ancestors of we Mongols) were also recorded during the 7th century. You have no right to claim that only Yakuts should represent our peoples. The Xiongnu were a Confederation of Tribes, not just Turkic ones... just as the Xianbei would be a federation of not only Mongolic tribes.

    Tengger is not only represented by the Yakut, but also by the Buryat, the Tuvan and some in Mongolia. They practice "Buddhism" as a more complete form. Tenggerism is not an organised faith, no head controls it, no texts translate it. Many Mongolians who do not have a spiritual tie with Tengger adopt a partial Buddhism called Lamaism with primarily practices the old Mongol religious customs that practice Tengrism.

    Just because our people accepted all faiths as equal paths to the One God, does not mean we "abandoned it".

    In the sentence, I wrote earlier that your Mongolian national costumes, as well as Tuvans ' costumes, are suspiciously similar to the ceremonial costume of the Manchu Emperor Kangxi of the XVII century.

    Do you have such a pantheon? About the word Khan, Kagan. This title appeared only in the V century among the Orkhon Turks. As well as the deification of Genghis. It's already late.

    Pantheon of deities
    Yuryung Aiyy toyon (other name Yuryung Toyon Aiyy) (Yakut. Үurүung Aar Toyon, Үrүҥ Toyon Aiyy) is the creator of the world, other aiyy, abasy demons, ichchi spirits, people, animals and plants. He is the head of the heavens and the gods. He lives in the ninth heaven, which is presented as the most beautiful country, where there is no winter, white grass grows like the wings of a white swan. He is embodied in the images of a white stallion or an eagle.
    Josyogey toyon (another name Kyryuyo Josogoy toyon, Josogoy Aiyy, Kyun Josogoy or Wardaakh Josogoy) (Yakut. He lives in the third heaven. He sends people horse livestock, but he can take it back and forth if he gets angry. Helps people to farm, work. Endows a person with strength, talent, skill. He is the eldest of the brothers of the gods.
    Isegei Ieyiehsit (Yakut. Ihegei Ieyiehsit) is a goddess who endows people with cattle.
    Khomporun Khotoi Aiyy (other name Syung Khaan, Syungken Ereli) (Yakut. Khomporun Khotoi Aiyy, Sүҥ Khaan, Sүҥken Ereli) is the patron god of birds. He incarnates in the form of a dark-gray eagle. He is the father of the eagle and severely punishes the person who killed this bird. He is a minor male god, giving people a numerous, but physically weak offspring, mainly girls, sometimes - cattle of the “hara dyagyl” color (Yakut. Hara dyagyl).
    Syuge toyon (other name Aan Dyaasyn, Dyaa Buurai, Oroy Buurai, Buurai Dokhsun, Wardaakh Dyasybyl, Syung Dyaasyn, Syurdeh Kaltekh Syuge Buurai Toyon) (Yakut S Тge Toya'yor Dyoryh Buraih , Sүҥ Dyaahyn, Sүrdaeh Kalteeh Sүge Buurai Toion) - the god of thunder and lightning. He is sometimes called the third name in the triad of the supreme creator. Thunder is represented by the sound of his horse's hooves, and lightning is represented by his ax, with which he strikes the unclean forces. In addition, he patronizes livestock, sends people children, foals and calves.
    Ayyysyt (Yakut. Aiyyhyt) is a goddess who lives in the eastern sky and descends from there, surrounded by a halo of light, in the form of a richly dressed elderly woman or a mare. She appears during childbirth, helps to safely resolve the burden, blesses the born child and leaves the mother's house on the third day after childbirth. Aiyysyt of a person is on the side of the rising of the summer sun. There is also aiyysyt of horse cattle, which is located in the direction of the rising of the winter sun, aiyysyt of cattle - underground. In addition, other animals also have aiyysyt.
    Ieyiehsit (Yakut. Ieyiehsit) is the patron goddess of women. Lives in the eastern sky. Always open to people, cheerful, perky. Descends to the ground in May. With her return, the foliage begins to turn green, summer begins. He helps people with his magic advice, protects from evil forces, blesses the offspring of cattle. Dislikes dirt and untidiness.
    Odun Khaan (Yakut. Odun Khaan) is a god living in the eighth heaven. Descends to the ground in February. An inventor, helps people build houses, invent new things. Also, he is the creator of fate.
    Dyylga Khaan (Yakut. Dyylha Khaan) is one of the gods of fate. It opens the veil of the mystery of their fate to people.
    Chyngys Khaan (Yakut. Chynys Khaan) is the god of fate who lives in the seventh heaven. It descends to the ground in December and reigns until mid-February. It echoes one of the titles of Temuchin - Genghis Khan
    Bilge Khaan (Yakut. Bilge Khaan) is the god of knowledge. Lives in seventh heaven.
    Uygulaan Khaan (Yakut. Uygulaan Khaan) is the god of love. Connects hearts.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,522
    united84 said:

    There is a reason why they are called nomadic peoples. They have no permanent homes and they move from places to places. Pretty sure we learnt about this in history class about the tribes living in the steppes.

    Besides, the first "descendents" of these savages that formed the northern kingdoms were semi-assimilated into Han Culture. Some of them even adopt Han Chinese Surname especially " Liu " to legitimize their rule and that was after the collapse of the Jin Dynasty.

    I think it makes sense for Northern tribes to be part of the Horde because they were hordes and like most of the proponents of diversity. It will add more diversity to the game :)

    it will add a **** and unfun faction style to the game. Nothing more. The vast majority of people dislike hordes. The northern teibes had territory that they controlled and there were sites on the steppe that held value. The northern tribes were of course nomadic, but they still had places that specific tribes controlled and ranged over that they would defend against other tribes. They were a lot looser and less centralized of course, but they had territories. They should have lands of their own.
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 551
    Yeah, I agree with making Ma Teng and Han Sui as Xiliang factions. They are very clearly presented as different from the rest of the Han in both the novel and TV show adaptions.

    CA have made exisiting factions a new culture before, see the bandits.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872

    Yeah, I agree with making Ma Teng and Han Sui as Xiliang factions. They are very clearly presented as different from the rest of the Han in both the novel and TV show adaptions.

    CA have made exisiting factions a new culture before, see the bandits.

    This. The Big Dong was also a Xi Liang general as well so they could also make new mechanics for the Big Dong. There is a lot of potential here in a XiLiang/Qiang expansion pack. The Qiang played a very important role in the novels from Ma Teng to Ma Chao so it's a win win for both the narrative and introducing a new culture.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,522
    Making Han Sui and Ma Teng "Xiliang" factions is a bit much to ask IMO. They could do it, and if they did make them unique I would love it(I'm a bit jelly that the Greeks in Troy have so much regional variation after all) but simply changing their aesthetics to be more in line with the Xiliang province look would be fine. The 3K medieval 2 mod does this, it has a unique appearance for the Liang factions but otherwise they are mostly similar to the regular Han.
  • kk107kk107 Registered Users Posts: 123
    Hoping one faction trys hordes in 3k . Rest can be regular
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