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Some Xianbei ideas for the Northern expansion

Avenger237Avenger237 Registered Users Posts: 247
Been looking at the Horde mechanics of the Amazon DLC with interest and thinking about how aspects can be incorporated in the Northern Expansion and have come up with the following high level ideas for the Xianbei.

Start date: 190

Three playable factions:

1. Kuitou (Inner Mongolia start)
2. Kebineng (northern Shanxi start)
3. Suli/Mijia (northern Liaodong start)

Campaign objectives:

1. Become the Great Khan of the Xianbei Confederation through either conquest or a military alliance; all 3 Xianbei factions will start off hostile to each other

2. Become the Great Protector of the Han (vassalise 2 Han Kingdoms or 6 Han duchies) OR become the Xianbei Emperor (i.e. capture the 3 emperor seats)

Faction mechanics (Kuitou):

- Inner Mongolia will be split into X regions that are mainly pasture/livestock areas with no settlements; the idea is that Han factions should have no economic interest in taking over these lands

- No siege weapons and can only access Xianbei units which have the mechanic whereby only basic units can be recruited, which can then be upgraded to more advanced units by leveling up on the battlefield

- The Horde mechanic will apply i.e. can’t reinforce each other, can’t take over settlements and can only accumulate resources via razing and war spoils (massive once-off resource boost)

- If you lose your last Horde army, it’s game over

- Upgrade predominately military buildings in the Horde War Tent and research predominately military related techs via “Favour” points to Xianbei gods accrued from razing cities and winning battles

- Access to mercenary contracts

- Starting in Inner Mongolia, his first sub-objective is to subjugate Xiongnu remnant tribes which will allow him to create more Horde armies; the idea is that after conquering Inner Mongolia, Kuitou will have access to advanced Xianbei units with a Horde army cap of say 5 (more will be unlocked as you rank up) and will be strong enough to start taking on the Han factions in China

- Once Kuitou takes over his first Han settlement he gets 3 choices:

1. Raze (gets prestige, resources, war spoils and favour)
2. Occupy (gets slightly less prestige, usual amount of resources for occupying and favour)
3. Turn to fallow (gets prestige, resources, war spoils and favour)

- By picking razing or turn to fallow after your 1st Han settlement conquest, your faction remains a Horde faction permanently and your ultimate Campaign objective is now solely to become the Great Protector of the Han

- However, the issue is once in Han lands, Xianbei units will have terrible replenishment rates (think Imperial units style)

- If you pick Turn to Fallow, you remain as a Horde faction and you are basically razing and exterminating/driving away the population in the settlement to turn the land into horse pastures (Genghis Khan initially had that idea for northern China), and it greatly boosts your Xianbei unit replenishment rates in Han lands but incurs a massive diplomatic penalty with Han factions; turns 5 turns to convert to fallow and 3 turns to convert back to a settlement with building slots

- If you pick Occupy, then you signal your intention to become sinicised and you become a “settled” faction permanently like Kebineng and Suli/Mijia and all Horde mechanics are removed. You can now still win as either Great Protector or Xianbei Emperor

- Disadvantages are loss of war spoils, dissatisfaction penalty amongst your Xianbei generals and permanent terrible replenishment rates for your Xianbei units in Han lands

- Advantages are better relations with Han factions, opens up access to more economic and agricultural techs, access to low-mid level Han units including siege weapons, more income from trade agreements/taxation from holding cities

Comments

  • Avenger237Avenger237 Registered Users Posts: 247
    Faction mechanics (Kebineng and Suli/Mijia):

    - Since Kebineng and Suli/Mijia start in Han empire lands, they start off as a Sinicised settled Xianbei faction ie. no Horde mechanics

    - They will get access to a mixed roster of Xianbei units and low, mid and some advanced Han units + siege weapons but all Xianbei faction units will still have the recruitment mechanic whereby they can only recruit basic units and which are then upgraded via battlefield experience

    - They will also get mercenary contracts

    - Access tech every 5 turns like the Han but this can be boosted by Favour points to Xianbei gods accrued from razing cities and winning battles

    - Advantages are no replenishment penalties for their Xianbei units, access to more diplomatic and better starting relations with Han factions, access to more economic and agricultural tech, increase income from trade agreements/taxation versus a Horde faction, higher army cap

    - Disadvantages are loss of war spoils, dissatisfaction penalty amongst your Xianbei generals, locked out of advanced Xianbei units

    - Win by either becoming the Great Protector or Xianbei Emperor
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,453
    I like your ideas but I think the 3 factions should be Xianbei, Xiongnu and Wuhuan. Each faction would get 2-3 unique characters and some special units. I don’t think the 3 tribes should be separated cultures since they are all Steppe Nomads at the end of the day.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,137
    Agree with Arneso with this one.

    Xianbei, Xiongnu and Wuhuan must be made into a single DLC.

    The thing I worried about is their unit roster. If they are implemented into 1 Culture, does it mean they will share the same unit roster?
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,453
    jamreal18 said:

    Agree with Arneso with this one.

    Xianbei, Xiongnu and Wuhuan must be made into a single DLC.

    The thing I worried about is their unit roster. If they are implemented into 1 Culture, does it mean they will share the same unit roster?

    Similar to the Steppe Nomads in Rome 2 they could have a basic unit roster with unique tribal units for each faction.

  • Avenger237Avenger237 Registered Users Posts: 247
    edited September 2020
    Might not have been expressed clearly but my intention was for all Xianbei to be one culture but with different mechanics ie. think of Kuitou as a Meng Huo (but with Horde mechanics) and Kebineng/Suli as a Shamoke.

    Also from my brief research, by 190 the Xianbei confederation had split and these 3 leaders were definitely not friends so to put them as the same faction would be historically incorrect I think.

    Agree that Xiongnu and Wuhuan should be in but I haven't had time to draft any ideas for them yet.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,137
    edited September 2020
    Hope to see 3, 5 or even more unique units per faction though if Xianbei, Xiliang and Wuhuan are to to be incorporated into a single DLC.

    Having 3 factions from different Nomad tribes will offer really unique experience.

    But I wish each faction leader have a couple of their own unique characters/guanxi.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,453
    jamreal18 said:

    Hope to see 3, 5 or even more unique units per faction though if Xianbei, Xiliang and Wuhuan are to to be incorporated into a single DLC.

    Having 3 factions from different Nomad tribes will offer really unique experience.

    But I wish each faction leader have a couple of their own unique characters/guanxi.

    The chances are good I guess. CA could also do the Troy approach and create unique unit rosters for factions of the same culture.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,137
    ArneSo said:

    jamreal18 said:

    Hope to see 3, 5 or even more unique units per faction though if Xianbei, Xiliang and Wuhuan are to to be incorporated into a single DLC.

    Having 3 factions from different Nomad tribes will offer really unique experience.

    But I wish each faction leader have a couple of their own unique characters/guanxi.

    The chances are good I guess. CA could also do the Troy approach and create unique unit rosters for factions of the same culture.
    Remember, Three Kingdoms is being handled by different team. Take note, the base game factions. Anyways, let's be optimistic.
  • MasterSlayeXMasterSlayeX Registered Users Posts: 385
    edited September 2020
    Wuhuan I imagine would start as a vassel or an ally of yuan Shao? Or would be a mission for yuan Shao .

    As for the unit roster I imagine they will share low rank units and probably have diffrent higher rank soldiers probably in name with the tribe

    I hope they do a small change to gongsun zans white rider fellows or mechanics to make it so His Calvery in white horses lower morale of the tribes of the north considering white horses were a sacred animal
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,523
    edited September 2020
    They wouldn't be a vassal to Yuan Shao, especially not in 190. They would only interact with Yuan Shao after Liu Yan and Han Fu are knocked out I'd imagine, and they would be allies, perhaps even more mercenaries, rather than vassals. But like I said that would be something for a Guandu start to consider, though maybe it could be an event thing.

    I see no reason for the Xianbei to be taking up all the spots, having one Xianbei, one Xiongnu, one Wuhuan and one other(potentially another Xiongnu, so they can have Yufuluo starting in China and another guy starting further out).

    Also what's the point of "Grand Protector of the Han", when would that ever be the case? Seems silly. Why would my steppe horsemen consider protecting the foolish settled people of the south?

    Also Horde factions are ungodly boring, and NOTHING will ever be able to change that. Even the steppe empires had land they governed, there were cities and great year-round encampments that would be permanent. They aren't literal Chaos Warriors, making them a settled faction with unique building options would be best, and also allow them to more seamlessly control Han lands, while also making it so the Han can conquer the steppes but at great costs.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872
    I don't think they should start as a vassal of Daddy Shao unless they started out as a vassal at the start of the scenario.
  • Avenger237Avenger237 Registered Users Posts: 247
    Krunch said:



    I see no reason for the Xianbei to be taking up all the spots, having one Xianbei, one Xiongnu, one Wuhuan and one other(potentially another Xiongnu, so they can have Yufuluo starting in China and another guy starting further out).

    Also what's the point of "Grand Protector of the Han", when would that ever be the case? Seems silly. Why would my steppe horsemen consider protecting the foolish settled people of the south?

    Also Horde factions are ungodly boring, and NOTHING will ever be able to change that. Even the steppe empires had land they governed, there were cities and great year-round encampments that would be permanent. They aren't literal Chaos Warriors, making them a settled faction with unique building options would be best, and also allow them to more seamlessly control Han lands, while also making it so the Han can conquer the steppes but at great costs.

    Yeap in 190, none of the Xianbei were vassal to another warlord based on my brief research.

    I never said Xianbei should have all the spots, this was simply my ideas on Xianbei specifically.

    "Grand Protector of the Han" is just something I conjured up to represent the ultimate title for a vassal/tributary master victory aka a "protection" racket.

    I disagree re Horde factions being boring but since variety is key, I also had ideas for a sinicised settled Xianbei faction that is playable.

  • LESAMALESAMA Member Registered Users Posts: 1,819
    The northern tribes probably will have the same approach as nanman. So own culture group with building, units, territories and technology tree. As a unique mechanic I expect some kind of mercenary & raiding system whereas it will still be possible to conquer the entire map as the northern barbarians but extremely hard to achieve.
  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,595
    I like the ideas of the OP, but not the start date. As I stated in my post: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/272189/xianbei-speculation


    The Xianbei confederation has already defeated the Xiongnu and pushed them out of Mongolia-Siberia, absorbing the remnant tribes that submitted to Xianbei rule in the year 182 (the Mandate of Heaven DLC in TW TK).

    This would be the perfect time for a Xianbei start time, because there is a unified China under the Han Emperor and the Ten Eunuchs, waiting for the Yellow Bomb to explode. When the Yellow Turbans rise and then the Qiang rise in rebellion too... as a Xianbei player, we can take advantage of this uprising and work to unify the Xianbei tribes under a single centralised Khagan (khan of khans) or... we can raid undefended parts of China and wait until the Emperor dies and China fragments into various warlords again.

    If we wait until 190, we see the China under Dong Zhuo, which is still pretty divided.




    It does give us a chance to work on unifying the Wuhuan and the remnants of the settled Xiongnu though.
    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • Avenger237Avenger237 Registered Users Posts: 247

    I like the ideas of the OP, but not the start date. As I stated in my post: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/272189/xianbei-speculation


    The Xianbei confederation has already defeated the Xiongnu and pushed them out of Mongolia-Siberia, absorbing the remnant tribes that submitted to Xianbei rule in the year 182 (the Mandate of Heaven DLC in TW TK).

    This would be the perfect time for a Xianbei start time, because there is a unified China under the Han Emperor and the Ten Eunuchs, waiting for the Yellow Bomb to explode. When the Yellow Turbans rise and then the Qiang rise in rebellion too... as a Xianbei player, we can take advantage of this uprising and work to unify the Xianbei tribes under a single centralised Khagan (khan of khans) or... we can raid undefended parts of China and wait until the Emperor dies and China fragments into various warlords again.

    If we wait until 190, we see the China under Dong Zhuo, which is still pretty divided.


    It does give us a chance to work on unifying the Wuhuan and the remnants of the settled Xiongnu though.

    Yes, from my readings, the power dynamics and political leaders of the steppe tribes were completely different between the two main start dates of 182 and 190; given the latter is the "default" start date for the game, I would be surprised if only a 182 start is available in the Northern Expansion.

    It will be very interesting to see how CA handles this if both start dates are playable.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,137
    edited September 2020
    Xiongnu Cavalry and Xiongnu Cataphracts are already in 8 Princes.

    So CA will just take them and make more Xiongnu units?
    Post edited by jamreal18 on
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