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Mist of the lady is a little too strong

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  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 248
    edited October 12
    The Gotrek conversation has been had a thousand times, show me a hero squad with Gotrek doing this infantry grind without the Fay (or at least mists of the lady)and then nerfs will be in the table for him.

    I'll accept any combo of Lord + Hero + Gotrek as proof so long as it doesn't include the Mists of the Lady.

    Edit: I don't think Mists of the Lady should be nerfed at this time either. Bret relies on it too much in certain matchups and the only matchup I would say it truly breaks is the Bret vs TK one. And TK have multiple paths to buff their anti-infantry character capabilities for example Necrotect buffs or Khalida on foot buffs
    Post edited by DaBoyzAreBackInTown on
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349
    edited October 12

    Funny that some lads still claim Gotrek being OP due to grinding endless chaff infantry when supported by weird magicks, but care nothing at all when he barely lands a hit on monsters like Stegadon, MH or Warsphinx etc. Double standards? Maybe he needs an armor nerf as well?

    Don't blame the weird caster synergy on Getrekt. He is weak when alone. Just naked Ungrim with better abilities and chimproll animations after all.

    Also you can counter foot trios very well with elite infantry, but that is already free gold for missiles and SEMs so let's drop the hammer on pedestrian gangs because muh meta and how dare anything other than big dumb monsters be that tough? Very not realistic. It's not like this is Warhammer where Getrekt one shots tomb scorpions.

    easily and readily explained, one is an Unbreakable hero with 70/60 stats, the other dies to any melee expert that can breathe on her.

    I guess the confusion lies in the expectation of some (without particular reference to any specific individual) that Unbreakable and 70/60 stats are stuff that should come for free as compensation for the disadvantage of being a foot character.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136

    The Gotrek conversation has been had a thousand times, show me a hero squad with Gotrek doing this infantry grind without the Fay (or at least mists of the lady)and then nerfs will be in the table for him.

    I'll accept any combo of Lord + Hero + Gotrek as proof so long as it doesn't include the Mists of the Lady.

    Edit: I don't think Mists of the Lady should be nerfed at this time either. Bret relies on it too much in certain matchups and the only matchup I would say it truly breaks is the Bret vs TK one. And TK have multiple paths to buff their anti-infantry character capabilities for example Necrotect buffs or Khalida on foot buffs

    I know toxic Empire builds that use Gotrek. Being one of the best combatants in the game, the best strategy against Gotrek has always been to avoid him, but Emp has ways to force you into blob fights.

    I don't know why people think Gotrek is bad. I like how Aero puts it: if the Fey is a small mortis, then Gotrek is a small giant.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591
    Well, I don't think Gotrek is half as bad as he used to be when he scored double damage hits with his animations. After the last patch Gotrek (just like Noble chariots) can no longer score double hits into the same model with "overlapping attack templates". So he is not trading up as much as he used to do in duels.

    That said he still has strong animations vs multiple entity units with a build in self-heal. He doesn't need Fey to be part of a grindy blob, you have variants with Thorgrim and Felix or Thane that can grind tons of infantry, especially infantry that can break, while also having mass/support in Thorgrim.

    So well, Gotrek is still Gotrek kind of but he's not rocking the socks of other single entities like he used to. Grimgor has not forgotten.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 248

    The Gotrek conversation has been had a thousand times, show me a hero squad with Gotrek doing this infantry grind without the Fay (or at least mists of the lady)and then nerfs will be in the table for him.

    I'll accept any combo of Lord + Hero + Gotrek as proof so long as it doesn't include the Mists of the Lady.

    Edit: I don't think Mists of the Lady should be nerfed at this time either. Bret relies on it too much in certain matchups and the only matchup I would say it truly breaks is the Bret vs TK one. And TK have multiple paths to buff their anti-infantry character capabilities for example Necrotect buffs or Khalida on foot buffs

    I know toxic Empire builds that use Gotrek. Being one of the best combatants in the game, the best strategy against Gotrek has always been to avoid him, but Emp has ways to force you into blob fights.

    I don't know why people think Gotrek is bad. I like how Aero puts it: if the Fey is a small mortis, then Gotrek is a small giant.
    He isn't bad, he just also isn't OP and so doesn't require nerfs. Costs 1100 and performs like it.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    Fey is fine, Gotek could use a nerf though he makes the Blobs to strong.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,598
    Fey is fine. If anything needs nerfs on bret roster its QK(+50-100 gold on both normal and ROR, or mild stat nerfs like reduced AP ratio) and pox arrows(though this is a poison missile in general thing, and hell, might be a poison in general thing. Poison is just stupid strong atm, the lack of friendly fire on the effect just made it more egregious)

    Gotrek might need a mild nerf, but id keep in mind that hes on 3 rosters at once, and thus not an exclusively bret issue and should get a separate discussion imo.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136
    If pox arrows are OP then what about all the LZM skirmishers? Why is pox arrows getting all the attention when not poisoning your big SE dinos as LZM way more impactful due to how stats and percentages work. I'm not against reverting the poison change but people need to stop making it sound like Bret was the biggest winner over the recent status effect rework.
  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 936

    If pox arrows are OP then what about all the LZM skirmishers? Why is pox arrows getting all the attention when not poisoning your big SE dinos as LZM way more impactful due to how stats and percentages work. I'm not against reverting the poison change but people need to stop making it sound like Bret was the biggest winner over the recent status effect rework.

    the big difference is that the Dinos almost all have poison projectiles
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    poison in general needs to drop from 20% everything to 15% be it melee or ranged
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136

    If pox arrows are OP then what about all the LZM skirmishers? Why is pox arrows getting all the attention when not poisoning your big SE dinos as LZM way more impactful due to how stats and percentages work. I'm not against reverting the poison change but people need to stop making it sound like Bret was the biggest winner over the recent status effect rework.

    the big difference is that the Dinos almost all have poison projectiles
    Which is why they are the biggest winners, not Bretonnia. Basically all your missiles get this innate buff. LZM are already one of the best at monster mashes, this just pushes them over the top.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854
    Cukie251 said:

    eumaies said:

    Cukie251 said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    Fey is amazing and her mortis effect is super important for Bretonnia against elite halberd infantry which otherwise the faction has no real answer for except trebs which are unreliable. She is not imba by herself but the hero squad on the otherhand...

    Gotrek absolutely needs some changes (unbreakable with RNG burst heal) and hero blobs in general need nerfs. There is nothing quite like 3 individuals killing an entire army.

    The thing is three individuals don’t really grind down a whole army. It’s only when you put the fay drain on top of that (or old Felix double healing)

    If as you say if that’s the only way for Brett’s to kill halbards well,,, let’s buff foot squires a bit so they can maybe do it with units instead.
    we did this dance no one like buffed foot squires but if we go by TT they should be stronger. and need a longbow variant.

    and CA won't give us foot knights and hermit knights without dlc
    Out of curiosity do you not feel that any combination of Felix/gotrek/paladin/repanse Counter halbards cost effectively?

    I don’t think you need a strong Mortis drain on top of that.
    I think the problem is that assuming you can counter a strong halberd line with a handful of anti-infantry heros isn't realistic. They wont get enough done quickly enough.
    What’s the hurry? These are halbards. Are they sitting on cannons or something? They certainly aren’t going to catch and kill anything by themselves.
    I mean they certainly could be? Its a little naive to assume a largely immobile army wouldn't bring additional tools to bait out the cav play.
    Boxes don’t hold a lot of artillery. Generally I find halbards aren’t going to keep most artillery pieces online. I think the concern is basically around killing the halbards themselves and I think Brett has decent tools to do that now.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854

    And the comet for 200 g is not really worth bri6if you want to be competitive. Comet is a really trash spell. The windup time on comet is just ludicrously long.

    If bretonnia will be a good competitive tournament pick we can start looking for nerfs.

    As far as I can tell they have two bad matchups - dwarfs and lizards. Other than that mostly favorable. Very strong and popular tournament race with lots of wins to prove it.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    Wyvern2 said:

    Fey is fine. If anything needs nerfs on bret roster its QK(+50-100 gold on both normal and ROR, or mild stat nerfs like reduced AP ratio) and pox arrows(though this is a poison missile in general thing, and hell, might be a poison in general thing. Poison is just stupid strong atm, the lack of friendly fire on the effect just made it more egregious)

    Gotrek might need a mild nerf, but id keep in mind that hes on 3 rosters at once, and thus not an exclusively bret issue and should get a separate discussion imo.

    No QK don't need any nerfs as long as Bretonnia doesn't get access to new AP dmg sources. Qk and Rhk are only reliable AP options not counting lords. If anything bretonnia deserves more sources of AP to match other factions options.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,546
    edited October 13
    eumaies said:

    And the comet for 200 g is not really worth bri6if you want to be competitive. Comet is a really trash spell. The windup time on comet is just ludicrously long.

    If bretonnia will be a good competitive tournament pick we can start looking for nerfs.

    As far as I can tell they have two bad matchups - dwarfs and lizards. Other than that mostly favorable. Very strong and popular tournament race with lots of wins to prove it.
    dude the only MU that are ok is vs elf races, all others are bad for various degrees, even HE, and DE are actually pretty even last i checked but they definitely can get worst,i am pretty sure they are not in bret favor but can not prove it so for the time being assume its even.

    they just not un winnable, but winning with bret is far cooler than winning with any other peasant faction
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    eumaies said:

    And the comet for 200 g is not really worth bri6if you want to be competitive. Comet is a really trash spell. The windup time on comet is just ludicrously long.

    If bretonnia will be a good competitive tournament pick we can start looking for nerfs.

    As far as I can tell they have two bad matchups - dwarfs and lizards. Other than that mostly favorable. Very strong and popular tournament race with lots of wins to prove it.
    You mean the have more even MU. Can't see for example how GS is now favourable MU for Bretonnia or VP.

  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,546
    edited October 13
    Only other faction remotely cool to bret is knights of caledor but only when lead by imrik proper on Minaithnir.

    Yap pretty much every thing else either peasent or some thing that need to be slayed.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 936

    If pox arrows are OP then what about all the LZM skirmishers? Why is pox arrows getting all the attention when not poisoning your big SE dinos as LZM way more impactful due to how stats and percentages work. I'm not against reverting the poison change but people need to stop making it sound like Bret was the biggest winner over the recent status effect rework.

    the big difference is that the Dinos almost all have poison projectiles
    Which is why they are the biggest winners, not Bretonnia. Basically all your missiles get this innate buff. LZM are already one of the best at monster mashes, this just pushes them over the top.
    except they very rarely hit themselves with it, so that meant that the unit they fight have it, while they don't, this change just means you can justify using there crappy shooting against what your dinos are fighting, nothing else, while pox arrows now lost there downside, because the knights thet are supporting will not poison the enemy, nor will they be poison by the poison unit, the difference between the 2 is substantial, and it is in the favor of the brettonians simply because the damage increase from a little more firing is low and the poison is redundant
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136
    eumaies said:

    And the comet for 200 g is not really worth bri6if you want to be competitive. Comet is a really trash spell. The windup time on comet is just ludicrously long.

    If bretonnia will be a good competitive tournament pick we can start looking for nerfs.

    As far as I can tell they have two bad matchups - dwarfs and lizards. Other than that mostly favorable. Very strong and popular tournament race with lots of wins to prove it.
    VP, WoC, Nor, GS, and TK if you don't bring the OP Gotrek. Maybe you should play some Bretonnia before making such an assertion. They are not a bad faction, but they not a great one either considering the amount of skill and effort it takes to play them well, especially compared to easy factions like LZM or Nor. Plus, even if you micro well, a win is not guarentee.
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136

    If pox arrows are OP then what about all the LZM skirmishers? Why is pox arrows getting all the attention when not poisoning your big SE dinos as LZM way more impactful due to how stats and percentages work. I'm not against reverting the poison change but people need to stop making it sound like Bret was the biggest winner over the recent status effect rework.

    the big difference is that the Dinos almost all have poison projectiles
    Which is why they are the biggest winners, not Bretonnia. Basically all your missiles get this innate buff. LZM are already one of the best at monster mashes, this just pushes them over the top.
    except they very rarely hit themselves with it, so that meant that the unit they fight have it, while they don't, this change just means you can justify using there crappy shooting against what your dinos are fighting, nothing else, while pox arrows now lost there downside, because the knights thet are supporting will not poison the enemy, nor will they be poison by the poison unit, the difference between the 2 is substantial, and it is in the favor of the brettonians simply because the damage increase from a little more firing is low and the poison is redundant
    If you think LZM has "crappy shooting" then you don't know what you are talking about. Lizards are perfectly capable of egregious kite builds. And don't pretend LZM units never poison one another before the rework. A single stray javelin from the Ancient Steg's howdah can poison a Carno during a monster mash and poisoning a SEM has a huge impact on their performance (-100 WS).
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,048
    edited October 13


    VP, WoC, Nor, GS, and TK if you don't bring the OP Gotrek.

    Brets roflstomp Norsca and are decent vs WoC now. You guys have really outdated impression about matchups. Or are just bad with cavalry.
    While Gotrek+Fay just annihilate TK(and it is not Gotrek problem, Gotrek itself are balanced for foot hero). And are at least decent vs VP.

    Do not know about GS, i can play all undead so rarely need other factions vs GS.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,546
    edited October 13
    tank3487 said:


    VP, WoC, Nor, GS, and TK if you don't bring the OP Gotrek.

    Brets roflstomp Norsca and are decent vs WoC now. You guys have really outdated impression about matchups. Or are just bad with cavalry.
    While Gotrek+Fay just annihilate TK(and it is not Gotrek problem, Gotrek itself are balanced for foot hero). And are at least decent vs VP.

    Do not know about GS, i can play all undead so rarely need other factions vs GS.
    So giving poison arrows changed the norsca mu that much?

    Or is it that fay and gotrek to strong for norsca.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136
    tank3487 said:


    VP, WoC, Nor, GS, and TK if you don't bring the OP Gotrek.

    Brets roflstomp Norsca and are decent vs WoC now. You guys have really outdated impression about matchups. Or are just bad with cavalry.
    While Gotrek+Fay just annihilate TK(and it is not Gotrek problem, Gotrek itself are balanced for foot hero). And are at least decent vs VP.

    Do not know about GS, i can play all undead so rarely need other factions vs GS.
    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,048
    edited October 13


    So giving poison arrows changed the norsca mu that much ha.

    It is not just that. Do not forget that cummulative buffs that Brets got for several patches to cav. If you play cavalry well it is not hard to eat Norsca by bits now. Poison give you cavalry huge mobility edge now making it easy to pick Norsca army by tiny bits.


    It must be super hard mu for norsca vs lizardmen now.

    LZD are not easy matchup for Norsca, in most cases i ban LZD and Coast if pick Norsca, it is mostly due to lack of good counter to terradons, but poison are issue, yeah. LZD cav are not as cost effective as brets one and slower.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,546

    tank3487 said:


    VP, WoC, Nor, GS, and TK if you don't bring the OP Gotrek.

    Brets roflstomp Norsca and are decent vs WoC now. You guys have really outdated impression about matchups. Or are just bad with cavalry.
    While Gotrek+Fay just annihilate TK(and it is not Gotrek problem, Gotrek itself are balanced for foot hero). And are at least decent vs VP.

    Do not know about GS, i can play all undead so rarely need other factions vs GS.
    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?
    I think wulfric on chariot is actually good in this mu. He kill all infantry with shadow or fire balefind, fimir kill cav.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,048
    edited October 13


    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?

    Fimirs do not counter bret cav if you know how to use cavalry. You just have easy time dancing around them due to poison slow now with focusing one by one with terror by Louen(some prefer Fay or Fay+GK, but i like Louen in this matchup).
    If you did not know having enemy faster units nearby do give massive LD debuff, being under fire do give LD debuff. Facing flying unit do give LD debuff. If you time it right you can insta rout Fimir unit with bret cav.
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136
    tank3487 said:


    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?

    Fimirs do not counter bret cav if you know how to use cavalry. You just have easy time dancing around them due to poison slow now with focusing one by one with terror by Louen(some prefer Fay or Fay+GK, but i like Louen in this matchup).
    If you did not know having enemy faster units nearby do give massive LD debuff, being under fire do give LD debuff. Facing flying unit do give LD debuff. If you time it right you can insta rout Fimir unit with bret cav.
    Magic damage, armor sundering, 110 armor, 70 leadership, 90 WS with BvL on Great Weapon -- yea not buying what you are saying. 45 speed is fast enough to catch peasant bowmen and if you are so afraid of them, just use the plethora of wind spells at your disposal, including the lore of boats if you really want Wulfric. Or maybe use your dogs properly like Enticity. Seriously, I can't believe Norscan players are complaining about Bret... you know how much more micro Bret takes than the 1 control group right click Norscan armies?
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,048
    edited October 13

    damage, armor sundering, 110 armor, 70 leadership, 90 WS with BvL on Great Weapon -- yea not buying what you are saying. 45 speed is fast enough to catch peasant bowmen and if you are so afraid of them, just use the plethora of wind spells at your disposal, including the lore of boats if you really want Wulfric. Or maybe use your dogs properly like Enticity. Seriously, I can't believe Norscan players are complaining about Bret...

    First of all i am VC main. And VC are cavalry faction actually. I play Norsca right now just cause VC are not competitive faction and i love agressive factions. I do take VC in non Important tournaments often cause i like them. But in serios ones i use more meta factions like LZDs, GS, Norsca, HE, Coast, TK. Sometimes even Bret, but i prefer to keep them for counter pick. In last everchosen quals i had got to finals and was not able to play VC even once. This is sad truth about VC sucking really hard in current meta. But probably wrong thread.

    As for Norsca-Bret. I do win this matchup quite consistent as Brets. It is not hard to control 4 cav unit with 1 Lord. You has 75 speed cavalry vs 45 speed Fimirs. Add to this poison and you get 75 speed vs 36 speed unit, is it that hard to pick engagements in such situation? While you waste time trying to catch peasants you would not have army due to 4 cav cycling.
    Dealing with dogs if you have 4 cav are easy. Position you archers so that boat would hit max 1 unit(and it would return in most cases). Dodge wind spells. You has just 5 units to control inclunding Lord, it is not that hard to have time for dodging.


    you know how much more micro Bret takes than the 1 control group right click Norscan armies?

    Of course i can play bret too. And Bret are less micro intensive faction than Norsca. By micro intensity it is closer to VC, with 3-4 cav units, Lord and chaff pretending that they decide something. Mircro with archers are quite minimal and mostly involve dodging and running.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,048
    You guys seems qutie delusional. Brets right now are strong enough to be first pick in final of everchosen qualifications. Like in Evenstar-Crabling game of third quals. It is very strong faction right now. And you do not need cosmic micro like for example WE to use it.
  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 936

    If pox arrows are OP then what about all the LZM skirmishers? Why is pox arrows getting all the attention when not poisoning your big SE dinos as LZM way more impactful due to how stats and percentages work. I'm not against reverting the poison change but people need to stop making it sound like Bret was the biggest winner over the recent status effect rework.

    the big difference is that the Dinos almost all have poison projectiles
    Which is why they are the biggest winners, not Bretonnia. Basically all your missiles get this innate buff. LZM are already one of the best at monster mashes, this just pushes them over the top.
    except they very rarely hit themselves with it, so that meant that the unit they fight have it, while they don't, this change just means you can justify using there crappy shooting against what your dinos are fighting, nothing else, while pox arrows now lost there downside, because the knights thet are supporting will not poison the enemy, nor will they be poison by the poison unit, the difference between the 2 is substantial, and it is in the favor of the brettonians simply because the damage increase from a little more firing is low and the poison is redundant
    If you think LZM has "crappy shooting" then you don't know what you are talking about. Lizards are perfectly capable of egregious kite builds. And don't pretend LZM units never poison one another before the rework. A single stray javelin from the Ancient Steg's howdah can poison a Carno during a monster mash and poisoning a SEM has a huge impact on their performance (-100 WS).
    thanks for ignoring the point, first -100 ws on a carno is mostly irrelevant when they will one shot cav, infantry, and will still smash other SEMs because they are poisoned, and that's a VERY special scenario, lizardmen shooting is entirely based on kitting, it's actual damage is terrible, it requires you to buy a lot of time for it to do its worth, which is a problem for a faction that requires shutting down missiles, yes you will take them, but they don't synergize with the roster very much, they are not a win condition, they are a pot hole, normally not a big deal, but damn are they annoyed
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