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Mist of the lady is a little too strong

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Comments

  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 736
    tank3487 said:

    Brets right now are strong enough to be first pick in final of everchosen qualifications.

    This "first pick" rhetoric that's been popping up lately is really misleading. Every faction should have the potential to be a first pick, so it's fairly irrelevant, and a few tournament games is an incredibly tiny dataset. Remember, Gobbo King won the first Everchosen with an all goblin army. This doesn't mean that an all goblin army is meta.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    tank3487 said:

    You guys seems qutie delusional. Brets right now are strong enough to be first pick in final of everchosen qualifications. Like in Evenstar-Crabling game of third quals. It is very strong faction right now. And you do not need cosmic micro like for example WE to use it.

    I loles at this so hard. You're delusional here. Bretonnia is decent but nowhere near you pretend them to be just because you would like to nerf a faction that is not really great as first pick faction compared to empire or skaven.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,039
    edited October 13

    that is not really great as first pick faction compared to empire or skaven.

    Skaven are bad first pick faction. Cause BM, Coast, TK, Norsca are obvious counter.
    Empire are strong, i think no player would deny that(i think only dawi are truly bad Empire matchups in all other cases you has options).


    Bretonnia is decent but nowhere near you pretend them to be just because you would like to nerf a faction

    I am a bit salty that Brets have best Mortis in the game right now, yeah.
    But i think that i would want to be nerfed are ranged poison and it is not just brets. Poison on missiles are just too cheap for advantage that it is provides.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,423
    tank3487 said:

    that is not really great as first pick faction compared to empire or skaven.

    Skaven are bad first pick faction. Cause BM, Coast, TK, Norsca are obvious counter.
    Empire are strong, i think no player would deny that(i think only dawi are truly bad Empire matchups in all other cases you has options).


    Bretonnia is decent but nowhere near you pretend them to be just because you would like to nerf a faction

    I am a bit salty that Brets have best Mortis in the game right now, yeah.
    But i think that i would want to be nerfed are ranged poison and it is not just brets. Poison on missiles are just too cheap for advantage that it is provides.

    Fay isn't the best mortis, she just the hardest kill mortis. Pretty sure regular mortis drain hurt much more.

    And i am honestly not buying norsca vs bret, it just doesn't make sense, i may not be in your caliber as player, but there is no way as norsca has hard mu vs bret.

    All you really got to do shut down archers. Cav can cycle but only qk are good vs fimir. And qk need to stay in combat, against fimir and norsca infantry they just have bad time. And those jav cav also hurt them bad.

    One wind spell pretty much insta route archer unit. And then hound feast. And once get rid of poison archer, i mean people only take one or two poison and rest is either regular or fire.


    V count almost 100% guaranteed a LP. And and least 2 flc lord with the missing blood lines. And then they will be good again. Plus you can always propose good buff to them since you are probably best count player here.

    Bret no guarantee on lp. So until dlc lets not talk nerfing bret unless there is game breaking buff to them happen.
    If bret dlc happen then we talk nerf. Or if they get another set of free units.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,596

    tank3487 said:


    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?

    Fimirs do not counter bret cav if you know how to use cavalry. You just have easy time dancing around them due to poison slow now with focusing one by one with terror by Louen(some prefer Fay or Fay+GK, but i like Louen in this matchup).
    If you did not know having enemy faster units nearby do give massive LD debuff, being under fire do give LD debuff. Facing flying unit do give LD debuff. If you time it right you can insta rout Fimir unit with bret cav.
    Magic damage, armor sundering, 110 armor, 70 leadership, 90 WS with BvL on Great Weapon -- yea not buying what you are saying. 45 speed is fast enough to catch peasant bowmen and if you are so afraid of them, just use the plethora of wind spells at your disposal, including the lore of boats if you really want Wulfric. Or maybe use your dogs properly like Enticity. Seriously, I can't believe Norscan players are complaining about Bret... you know how much more micro Bret takes than the 1 control group right click Norscan armies?
    Bret vs norsca is perfectly manageable for brets nowadays. You got great lords, great cav and great bows, all you need to win without too much effort.

    Wyvern2 said:

    Fey is fine. If anything needs nerfs on bret roster its QK(+50-100 gold on both normal and ROR, or mild stat nerfs like reduced AP ratio) and pox arrows(though this is a poison missile in general thing, and hell, might be a poison in general thing. Poison is just stupid strong atm, the lack of friendly fire on the effect just made it more egregious)

    Gotrek might need a mild nerf, but id keep in mind that hes on 3 rosters at once, and thus not an exclusively bret issue and should get a separate discussion imo.

    No QK don't need any nerfs as long as Bretonnia doesn't get access to new AP dmg sources. Qk and Rhk are only reliable AP options not counting lords. If anything bretonnia deserves more sources of AP to match other factions options.
    Wrong. QK are grossly underpriced atm and with the steady stream of minor buffs brettonia has shifted up in rankings rather heavily, no longer relying on its AP cav half as much as before. Even in some of their previously toughest matchups they can just rely on a mass of cav backed by poison bows now and do ridiculously well.


    As for the poison bow issues yeah, bret poison missiles aint the only ones, which is why either poison needs a general looking at, or other poison missiles need nerf too, but that isnt the issue on the table atm, we're talking brettonia specifically.

    I think a lot of people are either playing brets badly now or are still relying on out-dated second hand info. Even lizards are perfectly manageable nowadays with the poison buffs, since you can just melt them with masses of bows.
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  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,423
    Wyvern2 said:

    tank3487 said:


    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?

    Fimirs do not counter bret cav if you know how to use cavalry. You just have easy time dancing around them due to poison slow now with focusing one by one with terror by Louen(some prefer Fay or Fay+GK, but i like Louen in this matchup).
    If you did not know having enemy faster units nearby do give massive LD debuff, being under fire do give LD debuff. Facing flying unit do give LD debuff. If you time it right you can insta rout Fimir unit with bret cav.
    Magic damage, armor sundering, 110 armor, 70 leadership, 90 WS with BvL on Great Weapon -- yea not buying what you are saying. 45 speed is fast enough to catch peasant bowmen and if you are so afraid of them, just use the plethora of wind spells at your disposal, including the lore of boats if you really want Wulfric. Or maybe use your dogs properly like Enticity. Seriously, I can't believe Norscan players are complaining about Bret... you know how much more micro Bret takes than the 1 control group right click Norscan armies?
    Bret vs norsca is perfectly manageable for brets nowadays. You got great lords, great cav and great bows, all you need to win without too much effort.

    Wyvern2 said:

    Fey is fine. If anything needs nerfs on bret roster its QK(+50-100 gold on both normal and ROR, or mild stat nerfs like reduced AP ratio) and pox arrows(though this is a poison missile in general thing, and hell, might be a poison in general thing. Poison is just stupid strong atm, the lack of friendly fire on the effect just made it more egregious)

    Gotrek might need a mild nerf, but id keep in mind that hes on 3 rosters at once, and thus not an exclusively bret issue and should get a separate discussion imo.

    No QK don't need any nerfs as long as Bretonnia doesn't get access to new AP dmg sources. Qk and Rhk are only reliable AP options not counting lords. If anything bretonnia deserves more sources of AP to match other factions options.
    Wrong. QK are grossly underpriced atm and with the steady stream of minor buffs brettonia has shifted up in rankings rather heavily, no longer relying on its AP cav half as much as before. Even in some of their previously toughest matchups they can just rely on a mass of cav backed by poison bows now and do ridiculously well.


    As for the poison bow issues yeah, bret poison missiles aint the only ones, which is why either poison needs a general looking at, or other poison missiles need nerf too, but that isnt the issue on the table atm, we're talking brettonia specifically.

    I think a lot of people are either playing brets badly now or are still relying on out-dated second hand info. Even lizards are perfectly manageable nowadays with the poison buffs, since you can just melt them with masses of bows.
    So ok lets say we nerf all the over performing bret units.

    Which are archers, qk, trebs, and tone down fay. Do you honestly think brets have prayer of winning many mu.

    Honestly i don't believe lzm mu is good, it just went from pick bunch of big dinos and temple guard and win to actually bring good thought out builds.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,039
    edited October 13


    So ok lets say we nerf all the over performing bret units.

    No one say to nerf all. But poison on missiles definitely need rebalance. Probably at least something like +25 gold to all range units with poison.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,423
    tank3487 said:


    So ok lets say we nerf all the over performing bret units.

    No one say to nerf all. But poison on missiles definitely need rebalance. Probably at least something like +25 gold to all range units with poison.
    Sure but can we at least get like 5 ld with the nerf. It doesn't feel right if they run away after one wind spell or any good couple of artillery shot.
    Then i will ok with may be even a 50 gold nerf. As long as it come withnld buff.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 578
    It wouldn't make sense to increase LD for poison archers only, and I like that bowmen are cheap with low leadership, it makes them quite unique with their long range.

    I'm saying it repeatedly sorry, but honestly, as a bret fan, let's not die on the pox hill. I wouldn't mind entirely removing the pox arrow thing once they get a DLC, or just leave it for a RoR peasant archer. Bretonnia has so much yet left to be implemented. Pox was a grimdark meme about peasants from before the FLC iirc. Like seriously, ok peasants have a bad time but they don't "harness" whatever pox does (uhh). It shouldn't define bretonnia, it puts clan pestilens to shame now.

    And if people can't wait for a bret dlc to nerf pox arrows, there is still plenty to fix as compensation, like pegasus knights or re-buffing lance formation in some way as a useful alternative.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,423
    edited October 13

    It wouldn't make sense to increase LD for poison archers only, and I like that bowmen are cheap with low leadership, it makes them quite unique with their long range.

    I'm saying it repeatedly sorry, but honestly, as a bret fan, let's not die on the pox hill. I wouldn't mind entirely removing the pox arrow thing once they get a DLC, or just leave it for a RoR peasant archer. Bretonnia has so much yet left to be implemented. Pox was a grimdark meme about peasants from before the FLC iirc. Like seriously, ok peasants have a bad time but they don't "harness" whatever pox does (uhh). It shouldn't define bretonnia, it puts clan pestilens to shame now.

    And if people can't wait for a bret dlc to nerf pox arrows, there is still plenty to fix as compensation, like pegasus knights or re-buffing lance formation in some way as a useful alternative.

    True agreed fine let them have thier way , we brets will survive like we always have. And get some well deserved buff to our grail tier units.

    It just pains me to see one of the only unit synergy bret have get nerfed
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 736

    I'm saying it repeatedly sorry, but honestly, as a bret fan, let's not die on the pox hill. I wouldn't mind entirely removing the pox arrow thing once they get a DLC, or just leave it for a RoR peasant archer. Bretonnia has so much yet left to be implemented. Pox was a grimdark meme about peasants from before the FLC iirc. Like seriously, ok peasants have a bad time but they don't "harness" whatever pox does (uhh). It shouldn't define bretonnia

    Pox and Fire arrows are a way of padding an incredibly small roster with very limited ranged options. Both are tropes. The poison effect is a historical reference to peasant soldiers dipping their weapons in **** to cause infections and the fire is a reference to all those bad Medieval movies that think a fire arrow is practical. If anything, the poison is more thematic than the fire. Fire arrows actually come with a drawback, while Poison doesn't, perhaps the two aren't balanced or costed well against each other, but poison certainly shouldn't be removed. Bretonnia desperately needed the force multiplier of reliable, ranged poison.

    CA would have to dig deep to get a good DLC's worth of content for Bretonnia, and after that they are tapped out of source material. This will leave Bret with a below average roster, along with Dwarves and Vampire Counts. None of those factions should have options taken away.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,423
    blindjonn said:

    I'm saying it repeatedly sorry, but honestly, as a bret fan, let's not die on the pox hill. I wouldn't mind entirely removing the pox arrow thing once they get a DLC, or just leave it for a RoR peasant archer. Bretonnia has so much yet left to be implemented. Pox was a grimdark meme about peasants from before the FLC iirc. Like seriously, ok peasants have a bad time but they don't "harness" whatever pox does (uhh). It shouldn't define bretonnia

    Pox and Fire arrows are a way of padding an incredibly small roster with very limited ranged options. Both are tropes. The poison effect is a historical reference to peasant soldiers dipping their weapons in **** to cause infections and the fire is a reference to all those bad Medieval movies that think a fire arrow is practical. If anything, the poison is more thematic than the fire. Fire arrows actually come with a drawback, while Poison doesn't, perhaps the two aren't balanced or costed well against each other, but poison certainly shouldn't be removed. Bretonnia desperately needed the force multiplier of reliable, ranged poison.

    CA would have to dig deep to get a good DLC's worth of content for Bretonnia, and after that they are tapped out of source material. This will leave Bret with a below average roster, along with Dwarves and Vampire Counts. None of those factions should have options taken away.
    there is plenty of stuff for brets, two dlc worth stuff.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    Wyvern2 said:

    tank3487 said:


    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?

    Fimirs do not counter bret cav if you know how to use cavalry. You just have easy time dancing around them due to poison slow now with focusing one by one with terror by Louen(some prefer Fay or Fay+GK, but i like Louen in this matchup).
    If you did not know having enemy faster units nearby do give massive LD debuff, being under fire do give LD debuff. Facing flying unit do give LD debuff. If you time it right you can insta rout Fimir unit with bret cav.
    Magic damage, armor sundering, 110 armor, 70 leadership, 90 WS with BvL on Great Weapon -- yea not buying what you are saying. 45 speed is fast enough to catch peasant bowmen and if you are so afraid of them, just use the plethora of wind spells at your disposal, including the lore of boats if you really want Wulfric. Or maybe use your dogs properly like Enticity. Seriously, I can't believe Norscan players are complaining about Bret... you know how much more micro Bret takes than the 1 control group right click Norscan armies?
    Bret vs norsca is perfectly manageable for brets nowadays. You got great lords, great cav and great bows, all you need to win without too much effort.

    Wyvern2 said:

    Fey is fine. If anything needs nerfs on bret roster its QK(+50-100 gold on both normal and ROR, or mild stat nerfs like reduced AP ratio) and pox arrows(though this is a poison missile in general thing, and hell, might be a poison in general thing. Poison is just stupid strong atm, the lack of friendly fire on the effect just made it more egregious)

    Gotrek might need a mild nerf, but id keep in mind that hes on 3 rosters at once, and thus not an exclusively bret issue and should get a separate discussion imo.

    No QK don't need any nerfs as long as Bretonnia doesn't get access to new AP dmg sources. Qk and Rhk are only reliable AP options not counting lords. If anything bretonnia deserves more sources of AP to match other factions options.
    Wrong. QK are grossly underpriced atm and with the steady stream of minor buffs brettonia has shifted up in rankings rather heavily, no longer relying on its AP cav half as much as before. Even in some of their previously toughest matchups they can just rely on a mass of cav backed by poison bows now and do ridiculously well.


    As for the poison bow issues yeah, bret poison missiles aint the only ones, which is why either poison needs a general looking at, or other poison missiles need nerf too, but that isnt the issue on the table atm, we're talking brettonia specifically.

    I think a lot of people are either playing brets badly now or are still relying on out-dated second hand info. Even lizards are perfectly manageable nowadays with the poison buffs, since you can just melt them with masses of bows.
    No you get it wrong my dude. Bretonnian qk are vastly superior for the price yes but them and poison archers plus fay are bretonnian only saving grace, which made them barely competitive. Now salty people demand nerfs. If in your opinion brets deserves nerfs then how about empire gets some nerfs aswell because they are overall much better faction right now.

    So I don't see any reason to nerf bretonnia after they finally are viable to play in QBs, unless we get some dlc and more rors and units to patch the wide gaps to other factions rosters.

    With their limited roster and viable strategies some units just need to be a little bit overtuned like qks. Bretonnia has some usless units too, like reliquary or pegasus shitknights
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,423

    Wyvern2 said:

    tank3487 said:


    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?

    Fimirs do not counter bret cav if you know how to use cavalry. You just have easy time dancing around them due to poison slow now with focusing one by one with terror by Louen(some prefer Fay or Fay+GK, but i like Louen in this matchup).
    If you did not know having enemy faster units nearby do give massive LD debuff, being under fire do give LD debuff. Facing flying unit do give LD debuff. If you time it right you can insta rout Fimir unit with bret cav.
    Magic damage, armor sundering, 110 armor, 70 leadership, 90 WS with BvL on Great Weapon -- yea not buying what you are saying. 45 speed is fast enough to catch peasant bowmen and if you are so afraid of them, just use the plethora of wind spells at your disposal, including the lore of boats if you really want Wulfric. Or maybe use your dogs properly like Enticity. Seriously, I can't believe Norscan players are complaining about Bret... you know how much more micro Bret takes than the 1 control group right click Norscan armies?
    Bret vs norsca is perfectly manageable for brets nowadays. You got great lords, great cav and great bows, all you need to win without too much effort.

    Wyvern2 said:

    Fey is fine. If anything needs nerfs on bret roster its QK(+50-100 gold on both normal and ROR, or mild stat nerfs like reduced AP ratio) and pox arrows(though this is a poison missile in general thing, and hell, might be a poison in general thing. Poison is just stupid strong atm, the lack of friendly fire on the effect just made it more egregious)

    Gotrek might need a mild nerf, but id keep in mind that hes on 3 rosters at once, and thus not an exclusively bret issue and should get a separate discussion imo.

    No QK don't need any nerfs as long as Bretonnia doesn't get access to new AP dmg sources. Qk and Rhk are only reliable AP options not counting lords. If anything bretonnia deserves more sources of AP to match other factions options.
    Wrong. QK are grossly underpriced atm and with the steady stream of minor buffs brettonia has shifted up in rankings rather heavily, no longer relying on its AP cav half as much as before. Even in some of their previously toughest matchups they can just rely on a mass of cav backed by poison bows now and do ridiculously well.


    As for the poison bow issues yeah, bret poison missiles aint the only ones, which is why either poison needs a general looking at, or other poison missiles need nerf too, but that isnt the issue on the table atm, we're talking brettonia specifically.

    I think a lot of people are either playing brets badly now or are still relying on out-dated second hand info. Even lizards are perfectly manageable nowadays with the poison buffs, since you can just melt them with masses of bows.
    No you get it wrong my dude. Bretonnian qk are vastly superior for the price yes but them and poison archers plus fay are bretonnian only saving grace, which made them barely competitive. Now salty people demand nerfs. If in your opinion brets deserves nerfs then how about empire gets some nerfs aswell because they are overall much better faction right now.

    So I don't see any reason to nerf bretonnia after they finally are viable to play in QBs, unless we get some dlc and more rors and units to patch the wide gaps to other factions rosters.

    With their limited roster and viable strategies some units just need to be a little bit overtuned like qks. Bretonnia has some usless units too, like reliquary or pegasus shitknights
    don't forget mounted yeoman, and pole arms that insta route without reliquary. even grail knights and guardians are not optimal could shed models and reworked 24 model units with more HP, blessed treb that has such small explosion radius, foot squires..etc

    PK need more models.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 578
    A DLC would be great but personally I care more about new mechanics and hero customization than new units, so actually it's more adapted to a FLC like vampire bloodlines. You can actually introduce a lot of diversity and room for exploring new gameplay with a limited roster, if you work on the available support abilities and synergies. Actually bloodlines should have introduced more differences bewteen lords.

    I'd be quite happy with:

    - Prayer: this was initially the only "faction mechanic" alongside waagh and should have the same importance.
    - Vows: a lot of potential to work on synergies, knights buffing nearby peasant leadership, grails buffing nearby knights, etc.
    - Characters: they can easily make 5 generic paladins and 5 generic lords with mixes of virtues and vows, with very different roles (slaying monsters, buffing nearby peasants, air focus). CA teams would have fun working on the heralrdry to visually differentiate these roles.

    Also damsels and questing knights could use some charlemagne given how awesome the TT models were.








  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136
    tank3487 said:


    Of course i can play bret too. And Bret are less micro intensive faction than Norsca. By micro intensity it is closer to VC, with 3-4 cav units, Lord and chaff pretending that they decide something. Mircro with archers are quite minimal and mostly involve dodging and running.

    Ah yes, Bret is very much like VC -- unbreakable chaff, immune to psych across the board, resurrecting Cav models, summons, am I missing something?

    Also, "Bret are less micro intensive than Norsca" :D . Yes, how hard is it to control 12 melee unit, cast some wind spells, and right click with mammoth? Do you cycle charge with win wolves? Oh wait, win wolves automatically cycle charge after routing and returning with passive regen :D . Don't worry I'm sure in the next patch win wolves will get a +50 to their cost.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,836
    Delightful group this thread has triggered. Carry on.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,517
    edited October 13
    I am not joining into that discussion but here's my thought about MUs

    Good
    WE (for now)
    HE


    Slightly good
    DE
    BM
    Norsca close to balance

    Balance
    TK, legit without gotrek and fay, is slightly bad leaning to very bad.
    LZM,
    VC close to slightly good.

    Slightly Bad


    Chaos- Though Bret got new ways to fight chaos, chaos also trying new ways to fight bret. Archaon is amazing here.
    Skaven
    Emp


    Very Bad
    GS is just brutal
    VP
    dwarves, still very hard


    Also, ya there are things that bret could be nerfed, but not going to lie it feels bad or even scared to get nerfed and get dropped back to the bottom that it has been there for maybe more than a year. Meanwhile, top factions are still doing well for so long, like tk, vp and now gs. Skv getting their possible third dlc while being in the top half forever since their first dlc pack

    All i want is a dlc for new units.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 3,709
    My guess is the WE v Bretonnia MU won't change no matter what is added to the WE roster.


    Bretonnia has too many ore advantages in that MU.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 248
    Pocman said:

    My guess is the WE v Bretonnia MU won't change no matter what is added to the WE roster.


    Bretonnia has too many ore advantages in that MU.

    That's a pretty big call when they are getting at a minimum 3 legendary lords, X number of new lores of magic, & a new hero.

    Looking at GS DLC/rework even if you ignore all other roster additions, getting the Black Orc Big Boss (1 hero) made all of their hardest matchups (undead) far more doable. Don't see any reason to think Wood Elves will be any different.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,517
    With every DLC they are adding more slows/nets/ crowd control which hurts mobility factions more than range/inf faction, i could totally see it become from very easy to hard.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,596

    Wyvern2 said:

    tank3487 said:


    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?

    Fimirs do not counter bret cav if you know how to use cavalry. You just have easy time dancing around them due to poison slow now with focusing one by one with terror by Louen(some prefer Fay or Fay+GK, but i like Louen in this matchup).
    If you did not know having enemy faster units nearby do give massive LD debuff, being under fire do give LD debuff. Facing flying unit do give LD debuff. If you time it right you can insta rout Fimir unit with bret cav.
    Magic damage, armor sundering, 110 armor, 70 leadership, 90 WS with BvL on Great Weapon -- yea not buying what you are saying. 45 speed is fast enough to catch peasant bowmen and if you are so afraid of them, just use the plethora of wind spells at your disposal, including the lore of boats if you really want Wulfric. Or maybe use your dogs properly like Enticity. Seriously, I can't believe Norscan players are complaining about Bret... you know how much more micro Bret takes than the 1 control group right click Norscan armies?
    Bret vs norsca is perfectly manageable for brets nowadays. You got great lords, great cav and great bows, all you need to win without too much effort.

    Wyvern2 said:

    Fey is fine. If anything needs nerfs on bret roster its QK(+50-100 gold on both normal and ROR, or mild stat nerfs like reduced AP ratio) and pox arrows(though this is a poison missile in general thing, and hell, might be a poison in general thing. Poison is just stupid strong atm, the lack of friendly fire on the effect just made it more egregious)

    Gotrek might need a mild nerf, but id keep in mind that hes on 3 rosters at once, and thus not an exclusively bret issue and should get a separate discussion imo.

    No QK don't need any nerfs as long as Bretonnia doesn't get access to new AP dmg sources. Qk and Rhk are only reliable AP options not counting lords. If anything bretonnia deserves more sources of AP to match other factions options.
    Wrong. QK are grossly underpriced atm and with the steady stream of minor buffs brettonia has shifted up in rankings rather heavily, no longer relying on its AP cav half as much as before. Even in some of their previously toughest matchups they can just rely on a mass of cav backed by poison bows now and do ridiculously well.


    As for the poison bow issues yeah, bret poison missiles aint the only ones, which is why either poison needs a general looking at, or other poison missiles need nerf too, but that isnt the issue on the table atm, we're talking brettonia specifically.

    I think a lot of people are either playing brets badly now or are still relying on out-dated second hand info. Even lizards are perfectly manageable nowadays with the poison buffs, since you can just melt them with masses of bows.
    No you get it wrong my dude. Bretonnian qk are vastly superior for the price yes but them and poison archers plus fay are bretonnian only saving grace, which made them barely competitive. Now salty people demand nerfs. If in your opinion brets deserves nerfs then how about empire gets some nerfs aswell because they are overall much better faction right now.

    So I don't see any reason to nerf bretonnia after they finally are viable to play in QBs, unless we get some dlc and more rors and units to patch the wide gaps to other factions rosters.

    With their limited roster and viable strategies some units just need to be a little bit overtuned like qks. Bretonnia has some usless units too, like reliquary or pegasus shitknights
    This isn't even an argument. I don't think Fay should be nerfed, first of all. Second of all ranged poison overall has become OP ever since friendly fire stopped being a thing. Not unique to pox arrows but needs to be hammered on. Finally, Questing Knights are no longer a hard carry. They never were in the first place in most MU's, and with the pox changes that is even less the case. A +50-100 gold nerf would hardly be a faction killer, and would put them where they actually belong cost wise.

    Wyvern2 said:

    tank3487 said:


    Maybe Norsca players shouldn't always rely on Wulfric on mammoth, win wolves, and berserkers like they do in every generic MU? Especially since Fimirs counter all elite knights and Throgg is a AL specialist?

    Fimirs do not counter bret cav if you know how to use cavalry. You just have easy time dancing around them due to poison slow now with focusing one by one with terror by Louen(some prefer Fay or Fay+GK, but i like Louen in this matchup).
    If you did not know having enemy faster units nearby do give massive LD debuff, being under fire do give LD debuff. Facing flying unit do give LD debuff. If you time it right you can insta rout Fimir unit with bret cav.
    Magic damage, armor sundering, 110 armor, 70 leadership, 90 WS with BvL on Great Weapon -- yea not buying what you are saying. 45 speed is fast enough to catch peasant bowmen and if you are so afraid of them, just use the plethora of wind spells at your disposal, including the lore of boats if you really want Wulfric. Or maybe use your dogs properly like Enticity. Seriously, I can't believe Norscan players are complaining about Bret... you know how much more micro Bret takes than the 1 control group right click Norscan armies?
    Bret vs norsca is perfectly manageable for brets nowadays. You got great lords, great cav and great bows, all you need to win without too much effort.

    Wyvern2 said:

    Fey is fine. If anything needs nerfs on bret roster its QK(+50-100 gold on both normal and ROR, or mild stat nerfs like reduced AP ratio) and pox arrows(though this is a poison missile in general thing, and hell, might be a poison in general thing. Poison is just stupid strong atm, the lack of friendly fire on the effect just made it more egregious)

    Gotrek might need a mild nerf, but id keep in mind that hes on 3 rosters at once, and thus not an exclusively bret issue and should get a separate discussion imo.

    No QK don't need any nerfs as long as Bretonnia doesn't get access to new AP dmg sources. Qk and Rhk are only reliable AP options not counting lords. If anything bretonnia deserves more sources of AP to match other factions options.
    Wrong. QK are grossly underpriced atm and with the steady stream of minor buffs brettonia has shifted up in rankings rather heavily, no longer relying on its AP cav half as much as before. Even in some of their previously toughest matchups they can just rely on a mass of cav backed by poison bows now and do ridiculously well.


    As for the poison bow issues yeah, bret poison missiles aint the only ones, which is why either poison needs a general looking at, or other poison missiles need nerf too, but that isnt the issue on the table atm, we're talking brettonia specifically.

    I think a lot of people are either playing brets badly now or are still relying on out-dated second hand info. Even lizards are perfectly manageable nowadays with the poison buffs, since you can just melt them with masses of bows.
    So ok lets say we nerf all the over performing bret units.

    Which are archers, qk, trebs, and tone down fay. Do you honestly think brets have prayer of winning many mu.

    Honestly i don't believe lzm mu is good, it just went from pick bunch of big dinos and temple guard and win to actually bring good thought out builds.

    I never said trebs are OP and don't think anybody considers them as such, and never said fay should be nerfed. So why peddle that sort of nonsense. Nerf pox arrows, which are OP thanks to the friendly fire changes, nerf QK which have been grossly OP for ages and are no longer needed as a hard carry in a handful of MU's.

    And in exchange buff reliquae, mounted yeomen(and the yeomen archer ROR) and perhaps mildly uptweak squires and battle pilgrims.

    And lizards having to bring actually good builds and having about 50-50 chance is the definition of being more than manageable in my book, not sure how it could be interpreted otherwise. Atm brets have a tiny handful of bad matchups and good ones, with most falling much closer to even than before, giving them mild tweaks is perfectly acceptable.
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    Is bretonnia overperforming that you want to nerf them?

    Bretonnia has few hard carries right now that are qk and peasant bowman with poison. Qk are a common pick vs many factions because it's the only relatively cheap option for good AP dmg. Which bretonnia lacks.

    If more Ap dmg sources will be introduced to this faction that gold cost nerf to qk would be justified. Right now this would only put bretonnia to the trash tier where they dwelled for months.

    If you're so eager to nerf Bretonnia maybe we should start talking how to nerf emp, which is overall stronger faction.

    But their strength lies in versatility, so it's of course hard to pinpoint a unit that is clearly overperforming like qk in Bretonnia.

    The fact that bretonnia does not have so many options like emp makes them weaker at the start. So they rely on units that are better for their cost.


    I think it is safe to say if bretonnia ever gets dlc with more units their overperformers could be nerfed.

    I don't see any reason to do that now.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,596
    Empire is comparably strong to brets atm. They don't have as many blatantly good matchups, nor as many difficult ones, but both sit in a similar tier if handled with a vague degree of competence. The fact that a faction is in a decent spot overall does not mean that units cannot be tweaked or adjusted. Questing knights going to 1150-1200 and pox bows hitting 475 would hardly be a game breaker. Brets could use buffs to some units, nerfs to others. Empire could use the same on a handful of units but this thread isn't about empire so it's a moot point.
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    Wyvern2 said:

    Empire is comparably strong to brets atm. They don't have as many blatantly good matchups, nor as many difficult ones, but both sit in a similar tier if handled with a vague degree of competence. The fact that a faction is in a decent spot overall does not mean that units cannot be tweaked or adjusted. Questing knights going to 1150-1200 and pox bows hitting 475 would hardly be a game breaker. Brets could use buffs to some units, nerfs to others. Empire could use the same on a handful of units but this thread isn't about empire so it's a moot point.

    So basic6you want to nerf bretonnia carries for no reason other than well let's make them trash tier again l, no thx. This faction doesn't really need any nerfs unless they got a new dlc.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 736
    Pocman said:

    My guess is the WE v Bretonnia MU won't change no matter what is added to the WE roster.

    I would be very surprised if the matchup didn't fundamentally change. It might well still end up Bret favoured, but CA are signalling a lot of content for Wood Elves, some of that is bound to be useful against heavy cav.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,596

    Wyvern2 said:

    Empire is comparably strong to brets atm. They don't have as many blatantly good matchups, nor as many difficult ones, but both sit in a similar tier if handled with a vague degree of competence. The fact that a faction is in a decent spot overall does not mean that units cannot be tweaked or adjusted. Questing knights going to 1150-1200 and pox bows hitting 475 would hardly be a game breaker. Brets could use buffs to some units, nerfs to others. Empire could use the same on a handful of units but this thread isn't about empire so it's a moot point.

    So basic6you want to nerf bretonnia carries for no reason other than well let's make them trash tier again l, no thx. This faction doesn't really need any nerfs unless they got a new dlc.
    A mild cost nerf is not going to cripple brettonia whatsoever. You behave as if the sky is falling with literally 0 justification. +25 gold on pox and even +100 gold hurts the most dependent bret build by what? 350 gold tops? Behaving as if that sort of nerf would be the end of the world is entirely disingenuous and completely ignores how much stronger brettonias position is atm than it was before. It is not a faction that relies on one or two units to hard carry it. It is a faction that is in a solid spot and could still use some mild tweaking. Some of the infantry could be improved, some of the support units could be improved(mounted yeomen and reliquae in particular), helping in their weak matchups, and some of their most grossly overtuned units could use nerfs.
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  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136
    Wyvern2 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Empire is comparably strong to brets atm. They don't have as many blatantly good matchups, nor as many difficult ones, but both sit in a similar tier if handled with a vague degree of competence. The fact that a faction is in a decent spot overall does not mean that units cannot be tweaked or adjusted. Questing knights going to 1150-1200 and pox bows hitting 475 would hardly be a game breaker. Brets could use buffs to some units, nerfs to others. Empire could use the same on a handful of units but this thread isn't about empire so it's a moot point.

    So basic6you want to nerf bretonnia carries for no reason other than well let's make them trash tier again l, no thx. This faction doesn't really need any nerfs unless they got a new dlc.
    A mild cost nerf is not going to cripple brettonia whatsoever. You behave as if the sky is falling with literally 0 justification. +25 gold on pox and even +100 gold hurts the most dependent bret build by what? 350 gold tops? Behaving as if that sort of nerf would be the end of the world is entirely disingenuous and completely ignores how much stronger brettonias position is atm than it was before. It is not a faction that relies on one or two units to hard carry it. It is a faction that is in a solid spot and could still use some mild tweaking. Some of the infantry could be improved, some of the support units could be improved(mounted yeomen and reliquae in particular), helping in their weak matchups, and some of their most grossly overtuned units could use nerfs.
    If pox arrows gets nerfed so should all poison missiles (basically all LZM skirmishers) and WE hagbanes, poison gutter runners, spider rider archers, etc... you can't just single out one unit when the reworked benefited a lot on other factions as well. Either that or just revert the change.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,517
    indeed, GS, LZM also got buffed by this poison change

    Also about QK, im going to say a nerf to it will hurt a lot when every mu beside bm, vp and skv brings a few of them. They didnt even get a big buff, 1MD after many years but only the meta changed to favour medium cav over elite and AP getting even more important has put them better in the spotlight.

    After nerfing QK, what other AP does bret have? RHK and louen/alberic and thats it. Even all the other support buffs wont cover that their main ap unit gets nerf. I dont expect polearm will ever be good enough to be a core unit for bret.

    I rather see peasant mob get nerf.

    Ofc, tweaks can always be done, but I just want to show that QK is definitely a major player and that something like a 50 gold slap will hurt a lot to bret than any other units.
    You could GK now by a 100 and it wont hurt bret as much as QK getting nerf by 25.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,596

    Wyvern2 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Empire is comparably strong to brets atm. They don't have as many blatantly good matchups, nor as many difficult ones, but both sit in a similar tier if handled with a vague degree of competence. The fact that a faction is in a decent spot overall does not mean that units cannot be tweaked or adjusted. Questing knights going to 1150-1200 and pox bows hitting 475 would hardly be a game breaker. Brets could use buffs to some units, nerfs to others. Empire could use the same on a handful of units but this thread isn't about empire so it's a moot point.

    So basic6you want to nerf bretonnia carries for no reason other than well let's make them trash tier again l, no thx. This faction doesn't really need any nerfs unless they got a new dlc.
    A mild cost nerf is not going to cripple brettonia whatsoever. You behave as if the sky is falling with literally 0 justification. +25 gold on pox and even +100 gold hurts the most dependent bret build by what? 350 gold tops? Behaving as if that sort of nerf would be the end of the world is entirely disingenuous and completely ignores how much stronger brettonias position is atm than it was before. It is not a faction that relies on one or two units to hard carry it. It is a faction that is in a solid spot and could still use some mild tweaking. Some of the infantry could be improved, some of the support units could be improved(mounted yeomen and reliquae in particular), helping in their weak matchups, and some of their most grossly overtuned units could use nerfs.
    If pox arrows gets nerfed so should all poison missiles (basically all LZM skirmishers) and WE hagbanes, poison gutter runners, spider rider archers, etc... you can't just single out one unit when the reworked benefited a lot on other factions as well. Either that or just revert the change.
    No offense but did you even read my prior comments? I literally said pox are not unique in being overbuffed with the poison reworks.

    indeed, GS, LZM also got buffed by this poison change

    Also about QK, im going to say a nerf to it will hurt a lot when every mu beside bm, vp and skv brings a few of them. They didnt even get a big buff, 1MD after many years but only the meta changed to favour medium cav over elite and AP getting even more important has put them better in the spotlight.

    After nerfing QK, what other AP does bret have? RHK and louen/alberic and thats it. Even all the other support buffs wont cover that their main ap unit gets nerf. I dont expect polearm will ever be good enough to be a core unit for bret.

    I rather see peasant mob get nerf.

    Ofc, tweaks can always be done, but I just want to show that QK is definitely a major player and that something like a 50 gold slap will hurt a lot to bret than any other units.
    You could GK now by a 100 and it wont hurt bret as much as QK getting nerf by 25.

    QK were always overtuned. The buff they got is just icing on op unit cake.

    As for needing them in every mu except those 3, thats straight false. The only matchups where theyre an almost must have is chaos, dwarfs and lizards. Otherwise you can get by perfectly with other bret knights, you just dont because qk are massively overtuned.
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