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Mist of the lady is a little too strong

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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854
    I could be wrong, but my take on questing knights is they're a great deal for the most common purposes of knights, but 80 armour and no shield is not an insignificant set of weaknesses. I feel like some factions are going to take advantage of that better than others but I don't really mind them too much at their power level.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,598
    As a side note, atm the two worst bret matchups by a landslide are dwarfs and vamp coast, buffing pilgrims, yeomen, reliquae and squires is a direct buff in those two matchups.
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  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,546
    So no other race has apart from dwarf, chaos and lizardmen doesn't have 100 armour or plus units.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,598
    Having over 100 armor doesnt mean you need questing knights, and even if it did, a cost nerf doesnt make it impossible to bring them.

    If cost is too brutal they could have their preposterous ap ratio reduced, or their melee stats mildly tweaked down
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    Again QK are just a important carry in a lot of MU because bretonnia doesn't really have AP dmg except for RHK and lords. +100 in them would be like a huge unwarranted nerf if it doesn't come along with some new units with Ap.

    Nerfing qk a bit would be ok if bretonnia would get new Ap dmg sources.

    No reasonable amo5budf to fs would make up for such a huge qk nerf.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,598
    First off its 50-100, second off their hard carriness is GROSSLY overstated. Theyre a needed unit in like 3 matchups. Brets have plenty of tools to deal with armor now that they have gotrek and crazy good poison arrows. Stack that on trebs, royal hippos, lords and hopefully buffed squires and you have a more than adequate lineup of ap, even with mildly nerfed questing knights. They should be a legitimate choice ratherthan an instant pick vs almost everyone because they overperform so grossly.
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591
    I never liked the change to poison and other debuffs.... I would rather they made it so that units that deal poison in melee are immune to poison. It's not perfect but it would be better imo.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    Wyvern2 said:

    First off its 50-100, second off their hard carriness is GROSSLY overstated. Theyre a needed unit in like 3 matchups. Brets have plenty of tools to deal with armor now that they have gotrek and crazy good poison arrows. Stack that on trebs, royal hippos, lords and hopefully buffed squires and you have a more than adequate lineup of ap, even with mildly nerfed questing knights. They should be a legitimate choice ratherthan an instant pick vs almost everyone because they overperform so grossly.

    trebuches as reliable way of dealing with armor? Is this even a troll post? They not overperform grossly givin the fact they in bretonnia rooster. Yes dealing with armor for bretonnia is Rhk qk and lords and mass archers. And you for some reason wants to nerf their pillar of Ap dmg.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,598

    Wyvern2 said:

    First off its 50-100, second off their hard carriness is GROSSLY overstated. Theyre a needed unit in like 3 matchups. Brets have plenty of tools to deal with armor now that they have gotrek and crazy good poison arrows. Stack that on trebs, royal hippos, lords and hopefully buffed squires and you have a more than adequate lineup of ap, even with mildly nerfed questing knights. They should be a legitimate choice ratherthan an instant pick vs almost everyone because they overperform so grossly.

    trebuches as reliable way of dealing with armor? Is this even a troll post? They not overperform grossly givin the fact they in bretonnia rooster. Yes dealing with armor for bretonnia is Rhk qk and lords and mass archers. And you for some reason wants to nerf their pillar of Ap dmg.
    Not every bit of armor is sem...

    Trebs murder demis, high elf and dark elf cav and heavy infantry, plus they can slaughter heavy infantry supporting armored sems of other factions, isolating the sems...

    End of story is that qk are one of many tools in the bret toolbox. Not the sole crutch they once were. Nerfing them a bit would do nothing to cripple brettonia in its once tough matchups, just make qk less of a brainless pick over other solid cav.
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  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 248
    Wyvern2 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    First off its 50-100, second off their hard carriness is GROSSLY overstated. Theyre a needed unit in like 3 matchups. Brets have plenty of tools to deal with armor now that they have gotrek and crazy good poison arrows. Stack that on trebs, royal hippos, lords and hopefully buffed squires and you have a more than adequate lineup of ap, even with mildly nerfed questing knights. They should be a legitimate choice ratherthan an instant pick vs almost everyone because they overperform so grossly.

    trebuches as reliable way of dealing with armor? Is this even a troll post? They not overperform grossly givin the fact they in bretonnia rooster. Yes dealing with armor for bretonnia is Rhk qk and lords and mass archers. And you for some reason wants to nerf their pillar of Ap dmg.
    Not every bit of armor is sem...

    Trebs murder demis, high elf and dark elf cav and heavy infantry, plus they can slaughter heavy infantry supporting armored sems of other factions, isolating the sems...

    End of story is that qk are one of many tools in the bret toolbox. Not the sole crutch they once were. Nerfing them a bit would do nothing to cripple brettonia in its once tough matchups, just make qk less of a brainless pick over other solid cav.
    Another thing that could has been discussed before that could be quite good for Bretonnia is to reduce the model count of Grail Knights to 24 or 36 and rebalance them to be better as dedicated monster killers similar but different to Demigryphs and Necropolis Knights. Having Bret cavalry with different number of models would help differentiate them a bit more too.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 764
    Wyvern2 said:

    As for needing them in every mu except those 3, thats straight false. The only matchups where theyre an almost must have is chaos, dwarfs and lizards.

    They are also necessary for Dark Elves and they are the most cost effective part of Bretonnia's extremely limited AP options, which is why we see them so much. Footsquires and Halberds are bad, Hippogryph Knights and the Green Knight are expensive, Gotrek can't control space and Trebs can be compromised and totally shut down. Additionally, the Companions offers a way of threatening high mobility, high armour SEM without resorting to abusing ranged.

    Questing Knights aren't as over-used as Demigryph Knights with Halberds, I don't think they are screaming for a nerf.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,598

    Wyvern2 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    First off its 50-100, second off their hard carriness is GROSSLY overstated. Theyre a needed unit in like 3 matchups. Brets have plenty of tools to deal with armor now that they have gotrek and crazy good poison arrows. Stack that on trebs, royal hippos, lords and hopefully buffed squires and you have a more than adequate lineup of ap, even with mildly nerfed questing knights. They should be a legitimate choice ratherthan an instant pick vs almost everyone because they overperform so grossly.

    trebuches as reliable way of dealing with armor? Is this even a troll post? They not overperform grossly givin the fact they in bretonnia rooster. Yes dealing with armor for bretonnia is Rhk qk and lords and mass archers. And you for some reason wants to nerf their pillar of Ap dmg.
    Not every bit of armor is sem...

    Trebs murder demis, high elf and dark elf cav and heavy infantry, plus they can slaughter heavy infantry supporting armored sems of other factions, isolating the sems...

    End of story is that qk are one of many tools in the bret toolbox. Not the sole crutch they once were. Nerfing them a bit would do nothing to cripple brettonia in its once tough matchups, just make qk less of a brainless pick over other solid cav.
    Another thing that could has been discussed before that could be quite good for Bretonnia is to reduce the model count of Grail Knights to 24 or 36 and rebalance them to be better as dedicated monster killers similar but different to Demigryphs and Necropolis Knights. Having Bret cavalry with different number of models would help differentiate them a bit more too.
    The problem with that imo, while perhaps interesting or fun to see, is that brets have little way of forcing the enemy into a bad engagement. Demigryphs and necro knights are largely so powerful because their factions missile pressure is so potent that they force enemy monsters into unfavorable positions. They could just as easily be 45 model units with accordingly adjusted stats and theyd still be effective vs SEM because of the roster they are on.
    blindjonn said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    As for needing them in every mu except those 3, thats straight false. The only matchups where theyre an almost must have is chaos, dwarfs and lizards.

    They are also necessary for Dark Elves and they are the most cost effective part of Bretonnia's extremely limited AP options, which is why we see them so much. Footsquires and Halberds are bad, Hippogryph Knights and the Green Knight are expensive, Gotrek can't control space and Trebs can be compromised and totally shut down. Additionally, the Companions offers a way of threatening high mobility, high armour SEM without resorting to abusing ranged.

    Questing Knights aren't as over-used as Demigryph Knights with Halberds, I don't think they are screaming for a nerf.
    Abnsolute nonsense. You can use just about any cavalry unit you want vs dark elves, questing knights are nowhere near mandatory and never have been, the reason theyre the most cost effective choice is just because they're straight up OP for the cost. If they were on any other roster they'd be a 1200-1250 gold cav but because Brettonia was a cripple faction for so long they stayed at 1100 and got buffs to boot. The problem is that Brettonia has moved on since then, with consecutive buffs to various support elements combining to make them a very competitive faction over time.

    As for companions, they do rather little to threaten SEM's better than other bret units for the same reasons that making 24 model grails wouldnt be a huge boost to bret anti-armored SEM powerm, theres nothing to force your opponent to move. They just beat the snot out of enemy cav with stupid efficiency, which was never a bret problem to begin with.

    And demigryph halberds are quite frankly grossly overrated. They're great in a few matchups where you can expect hefty enemy cav presence, and are otherwise a pretty mediocre if not outright bad unit choice in ~2/3rds of empires matchups. Questing Knights are a top choice in almost every bret matchup despite being unneeded in most of those matchups, because they are so grossly overtuned.
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  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,565
    Wyvern2 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Empire is comparably strong to brets atm. They don't have as many blatantly good matchups, nor as many difficult ones, but both sit in a similar tier if handled with a vague degree of competence. The fact that a faction is in a decent spot overall does not mean that units cannot be tweaked or adjusted. Questing knights going to 1150-1200 and pox bows hitting 475 would hardly be a game breaker. Brets could use buffs to some units, nerfs to others. Empire could use the same on a handful of units but this thread isn't about empire so it's a moot point.

    So basic6you want to nerf bretonnia carries for no reason other than well let's make them trash tier again l, no thx. This faction doesn't really need any nerfs unless they got a new dlc.
    A mild cost nerf is not going to cripple brettonia whatsoever. You behave as if the sky is falling with literally 0 justification. +25 gold on pox and even +100 gold hurts the most dependent bret build by what? 350 gold tops? Behaving as if that sort of nerf would be the end of the world is entirely disingenuous and completely ignores how much stronger brettonias position is atm than it was before. It is not a faction that relies on one or two units to hard carry it. It is a faction that is in a solid spot and could still use some mild tweaking. Some of the infantry could be improved, some of the support units could be improved(mounted yeomen and reliquae in particular), helping in their weak matchups, and some of their most grossly overtuned units could use nerfs.
    If pox arrows gets nerfed so should all poison missiles (basically all LZM skirmishers) and WE hagbanes, poison gutter runners, spider rider archers, etc... you can't just single out one unit when the reworked benefited a lot on other factions as well. Either that or just revert the change.
    No offense but did you even read my prior comments? I literally said pox are not unique in being overbuffed with the poison reworks.

    indeed, GS, LZM also got buffed by this poison change

    Also about QK, im going to say a nerf to it will hurt a lot when every mu beside bm, vp and skv brings a few of them. They didnt even get a big buff, 1MD after many years but only the meta changed to favour medium cav over elite and AP getting even more important has put them better in the spotlight.

    After nerfing QK, what other AP does bret have? RHK and louen/alberic and thats it. Even all the other support buffs wont cover that their main ap unit gets nerf. I dont expect polearm will ever be good enough to be a core unit for bret.

    I rather see peasant mob get nerf.

    Ofc, tweaks can always be done, but I just want to show that QK is definitely a major player and that something like a 50 gold slap will hurt a lot to bret than any other units.
    You could GK now by a 100 and it wont hurt bret as much as QK getting nerf by 25.

    QK were always overtuned. The buff they got is just icing on op unit cake.

    As for needing them in every mu except those 3, thats straight false. The only matchups where theyre an almost must have is chaos, dwarfs and lizards. Otherwise you can get by perfectly with other bret knights, you just dont because qk are massively overtuned.
    Qk for emp demi or even high armor emp knights, volkmar and karl
    Tk for constructs, sphinx, sep stalkers usbati bone giants all have high armor. Even arkhan has 90 armor and good stats
    Norsca for fimir 110 armor or armored skinwolves
    Vc bloodknights, terrorgheist, a matchup that summons make cycle charging hard.
    Gs with giant spiders black orcs stone trolls


    i miss out WE ,he de that you dont have to bring it. those are the good mus.


    But Not bringing ap cavs when opponents are intentionally bring heavy armor units is gimping yourself severely. Sure you can GK to somewhat compensate and sometimes work but they cost a lot more.

    You can see that all the balance to hard mus (besides vp) you rely on qk to make them a more fair mu. Qk doesnt make easy mus easier because you dont bring them there.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    I would rather poison got reduced to 15% stat reduction, melee poison also as its always been the strongest on hit effect.

    As for brets i would

    Nerf:
    Questings +50g
    Ror +50g
    Gotrek
    Felix

    Buff:
    Polearms -75g
    Pilgrims +3 Speed
    Foot squires +25g +4md +2CB
    Mounted yomen CB to 40 if its not already
    Fire arrows +1ap
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349

    Wyvern2 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Empire is comparably strong to brets atm. They don't have as many blatantly good matchups, nor as many difficult ones, but both sit in a similar tier if handled with a vague degree of competence. The fact that a faction is in a decent spot overall does not mean that units cannot be tweaked or adjusted. Questing knights going to 1150-1200 and pox bows hitting 475 would hardly be a game breaker. Brets could use buffs to some units, nerfs to others. Empire could use the same on a handful of units but this thread isn't about empire so it's a moot point.

    So basic6you want to nerf bretonnia carries for no reason other than well let's make them trash tier again l, no thx. This faction doesn't really need any nerfs unless they got a new dlc.
    A mild cost nerf is not going to cripple brettonia whatsoever. You behave as if the sky is falling with literally 0 justification. +25 gold on pox and even +100 gold hurts the most dependent bret build by what? 350 gold tops? Behaving as if that sort of nerf would be the end of the world is entirely disingenuous and completely ignores how much stronger brettonias position is atm than it was before. It is not a faction that relies on one or two units to hard carry it. It is a faction that is in a solid spot and could still use some mild tweaking. Some of the infantry could be improved, some of the support units could be improved(mounted yeomen and reliquae in particular), helping in their weak matchups, and some of their most grossly overtuned units could use nerfs.
    If pox arrows gets nerfed so should all poison missiles (basically all LZM skirmishers) and WE hagbanes, poison gutter runners, spider rider archers, etc... you can't just single out one unit when the reworked benefited a lot on other factions as well. Either that or just revert the change.
    No offense but did you even read my prior comments? I literally said pox are not unique in being overbuffed with the poison reworks.

    indeed, GS, LZM also got buffed by this poison change

    Also about QK, im going to say a nerf to it will hurt a lot when every mu beside bm, vp and skv brings a few of them. They didnt even get a big buff, 1MD after many years but only the meta changed to favour medium cav over elite and AP getting even more important has put them better in the spotlight.

    After nerfing QK, what other AP does bret have? RHK and louen/alberic and thats it. Even all the other support buffs wont cover that their main ap unit gets nerf. I dont expect polearm will ever be good enough to be a core unit for bret.

    I rather see peasant mob get nerf.

    Ofc, tweaks can always be done, but I just want to show that QK is definitely a major player and that something like a 50 gold slap will hurt a lot to bret than any other units.
    You could GK now by a 100 and it wont hurt bret as much as QK getting nerf by 25.

    QK were always overtuned. The buff they got is just icing on op unit cake.

    As for needing them in every mu except those 3, thats straight false. The only matchups where theyre an almost must have is chaos, dwarfs and lizards. Otherwise you can get by perfectly with other bret knights, you just dont because qk are massively overtuned.
    Qk for emp demi or even high armor emp knights, volkmar and karl
    Tk for constructs, sphinx, sep stalkers usbati bone giants all have high armor. Even arkhan has 90 armor and good stats
    Norsca for fimir 110 armor or armored skinwolves
    Vc bloodknights, terrorgheist, a matchup that summons make cycle charging hard.
    Gs with giant spiders black orcs stone trolls


    i miss out WE ,he de that you dont have to bring it. those are the good mus.


    But Not bringing ap cavs when opponents are intentionally bring heavy armor units is gimping yourself severely. Sure you can GK to somewhat compensate and sometimes work but they cost a lot more.

    You can see that all the balance to hard mus (besides vp) you rely on qk to make them a more fair mu. Qk doesnt make easy mus easier because you dont bring them there.
    as a general rule of thumb you need AP units when you face like 100-110 armor or more. That makes 1/2 the matches you listed such where QK are not an essential pick.

    Remember also that vs TK say you can bring lord on Hippogryph or 1 unit of RHK, very often that's enough to deal with 2 or less Necro Knights.

    Anything 90 armor or less, basic spears and Knights of the Realm kill excellently.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,182

    I would rather poison got reduced to 15% stat reduction, melee poison also as its always been the strongest on hit effect.

    As for brets i would

    Nerf:
    Questings +50g
    Ror +50g
    Gotrek
    Felix

    Buff:
    Polearms -75g
    Pilgrims +3 Speed
    Foot squires +25g +4md +2CB
    Mounted yomen CB to 40 if its not already
    Fire arrows +1ap

    yeah basically, I would also add a small buff to beastslayers of bastonne, and increase footsquires speed by 2.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 764
    edited October 15
    Wyvern2 said:

    You can use just about any cavalry unit you want vs dark elves, questing knights are nowhere near mandatory and never have been

    Overloading your army with AP units is extremely effective vs Dark Elves, and I've already explained why Questing Knights are the go-to AP option.

    Felix

    Why would Felix need a nerf? He's totally crowded out of Bretonnia's hero slots, I don't see his utility being OP.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,546
    edited October 15
    I read this, and vomit.

    Bret have grand total of 6 ap units.
    One of them are men at arms with ploe arms who are not good.
    Foot squires teerible
    Trebs good
    Blessed trebs mediocre
    QK great
    RHK great but expensive

    So by nerfing one of these units your basically nerfing several build types. And forcing brets to be even more predictable so it will make counter building against them easier.

    I say nay ,
    Most faction do have ways to deal with Qk as long they have decent range, its not like qk has sheild or magic missle resist.


    Fight bretonnia chivalrously, give bretonnia dlc than we talk.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    Most suggestions here nerf 1 while buff two from your list. And nerf would still leave it a good unit just more balanced
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,598

    Most suggestions here nerf 1 while buff two from your list. And nerf would still leave it a good unit just more balanced

    This. QK and pox bows get nerfs, a bunch of other units can get buffs.

    The notion that nerfing a unit makes the builds involving it impossible is also quite frankly laughable. Brets are my second most played faction, and I know for a fact QK's getting a mild price nerf is not going to be crippling, just like when empire spears took a price hike I didn't go whinging about how it makes empire unplayable, cuz it was fair and didn't really hurt the builds.
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854
    edited October 15

    I would rather poison got reduced to 15% stat reduction, melee poison also as its always been the strongest on hit effect.

    As for brets i would

    Nerf:
    Questings +50g
    Ror +50g
    Gotrek
    Felix

    Buff:
    Polearms -75g
    Pilgrims +3 Speed
    Foot squires +25g +4md +2CB
    Mounted yomen CB to 40 if its not already
    Fire arrows +1ap

    I find it funny there are still people on the internet that think Felix is any kind of OP pick. He got a substantial nerf dontya know. As for Gotrek, see, the original post - he may be handy with the Fay, but any foot brawler is handy guarding a small hit box mortis. Empire for example doesn't get much good value out of Gotrek. He's just a decent combat foot hero and costs accordingly.



  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    eumaies said:

    I would rather poison got reduced to 15% stat reduction, melee poison also as its always been the strongest on hit effect.

    As for brets i would

    Nerf:
    Questings +50g
    Ror +50g
    Gotrek
    Felix

    Buff:
    Polearms -75g
    Pilgrims +3 Speed
    Foot squires +25g +4md +2CB
    Mounted yomen CB to 40 if its not already
    Fire arrows +1ap

    I find it funny there are still people on the internet that think Felix is any kind of OP pick. He got a substantial nerf dontya know. As for Gotrek, see, the original post - he may be handy with the Fay, but any foot brawler is handy guarding a small hit box mortis. Empire for example doesn't get much good value out of Gotrek. He's just a decent combat foot hero and costs accordingly.



    Its more what those two allow rather than being OP individually though gotrek likely is anyway.

    They need to be balanced across 3 factions

    I find it fun that there are people who dont think the 3 charecter blobs are OP.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854

    eumaies said:

    I would rather poison got reduced to 15% stat reduction, melee poison also as its always been the strongest on hit effect.

    As for brets i would

    Nerf:
    Questings +50g
    Ror +50g
    Gotrek
    Felix

    Buff:
    Polearms -75g
    Pilgrims +3 Speed
    Foot squires +25g +4md +2CB
    Mounted yomen CB to 40 if its not already
    Fire arrows +1ap

    I find it funny there are still people on the internet that think Felix is any kind of OP pick. He got a substantial nerf dontya know. As for Gotrek, see, the original post - he may be handy with the Fay, but any foot brawler is handy guarding a small hit box mortis. Empire for example doesn't get much good value out of Gotrek. He's just a decent combat foot hero and costs accordingly.



    Its more what those two allow rather than being OP individually though gotrek likely is anyway.

    They need to be balanced across 3 factions

    I find it fun that there are people who dont think the 3 charecter blobs are OP.
    Perhaps you've yet to read the OP which is about the fay's mortis effect.

    But no, 3 character blobs are not OP in general. It's true they don't always lose and sometimes you have to make some effort or take good units against them.

    And felix ain't special or OP in any faction of the three. He's squishy and gives himself and one other hero who wants to be hanging around with him regeneration. It's not a big deal. I would not combo felix with the Fay if that's your argument, a cheaper paladin with guardian is all around better and the fay has access to plenty of healing without him.

    Felix is nice for the empire and brettonia to give them a little more anti infantry in a balanced way. So doesn't make any sense at all to try to make him useless.
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 136
    What's wrong with the idea of reworking Felix's passive regen aura to a substantial heal for Gotrek specifically. I feel like it would encourage people to take them as a pair and not Fey, Gotrek + Paladin.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,546

    What's wrong with the idea of reworking Felix's passive regen aura to a substantial heal for Gotrek specifically. I feel like it would encourage people to take them as a pair and not Fey, Gotrek + Paladin.

    Yeah good idea and then remove goterks heal burst.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,035

    What's wrong with the idea of reworking Felix's passive regen aura to a substantial heal for Gotrek specifically. I feel like it would encourage people to take them as a pair and not Fey, Gotrek + Paladin.

    Yeah good idea and then remove goterks heal burst.
    That would also make one less bug to fix.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 764

    What's wrong with the idea of reworking Felix's passive regen aura to a substantial heal for Gotrek specifically. I feel like it would encourage people to take them as a pair and not Fey, Gotrek + Paladin.

    Using them as a pair is a massive tax. They are expensive and you'd have to take a caster lord or deny yourself magic. It's just not worth hampering those valuable Lord and Hero slots for the sake of some foot characters. If their value was only accessible by taking both of them, we'd never see them.

    I actually like that they show up independently, and it makes it really special if anyone ever takes both. Gotrek is just a bit overexposed because he shores up a big hole in the Bretonnian roster. If Bret had more options, he wouldn't feel oppressive - he's not all over Dwarfen and Empire army lists.
  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 936
    blindjonn said:

    What's wrong with the idea of reworking Felix's passive regen aura to a substantial heal for Gotrek specifically. I feel like it would encourage people to take them as a pair and not Fey, Gotrek + Paladin.

    Using them as a pair is a massive tax. They are expensive and you'd have to take a caster lord or deny yourself magic. It's just not worth hampering those valuable Lord and Hero slots for the sake of some foot characters. If their value was only accessible by taking both of them, we'd never see them.

    I actually like that they show up independently, and it makes it really special if anyone ever takes both. Gotrek is just a bit overexposed because he shores up a big hole in the Bretonnian roster. If Bret had more options, he wouldn't feel oppressive - he's not all over Dwarfen and Empire army lists.
    the thing is if there utility was lowered there price would follow, allowing them being taken together for a reasonable price, it works perfectly for them
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 764

    the thing is if there utility was lowered there price would follow, allowing them being taken together for a reasonable price, it works perfectly for them

    Still costs you mobility or ranged in your hero slots and forces a caster lord pick. Additionally, if they were heavily discounted but had more synergy, I still think people would just go for one or the other as they would be weaker, budget versions of what they are now. Gotrek and Felix as a team is great for singleplayer and roleplay-type army builds, but splitting them up in competitive play isn't sacrilege.

  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 936
    blindjonn said:

    the thing is if there utility was lowered there price would follow, allowing them being taken together for a reasonable price, it works perfectly for them

    Still costs you mobility or ranged in your hero slots and forces a caster lord pick. Additionally, if they were heavily discounted but had more synergy, I still think people would just go for one or the other as they would be weaker, budget versions of what they are now. Gotrek and Felix as a team is great for singleplayer and roleplay-type army builds, but splitting them up in competitive play isn't sacrilege.

    splitting them up shouldn't be there meta either, they should operate together and synergize together, beyond that, God forbid that you might have to compromise on what you have to bring particularly since 33% of the factions that have them don't have magic, and the other 2 have lord casters, so what exactly is the problem, that you can't bring whatever you want without thought?
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