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Coast nerfs and buffs for next patch

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  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 989
    Aranessa is a great foot lord. Net, debuff, massive AoE buff, reasonably fast, anti-large, imagine if Dwarfs had her as a lord option. She's just overshadowed by the obscenely OP Luthor and Nocti.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 5,992

    Aranessa is a great foot lord. Net, debuff, massive AoE buff, reasonably fast, anti-large, imagine if Dwarfs had her as a lord option. She's just overshadowed by the obscenely OP Luthor and Nocti.

    Or more that Dwarves arent built at TWW2 standard.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 31,746
    Amonkhet said:

    Aranessa is a great foot lord. Net, debuff, massive AoE buff, reasonably fast, anti-large, imagine if Dwarfs had her as a lord option. She's just overshadowed by the obscenely OP Luthor and Nocti.

    Or more that Dwarves arent built at TWW2 standard.
    Sorry, it's that several WH2 lords have been massively overtuned and need to be taken down a peg because they overshadow other options.

    Going the opposite route is not acceptable, that's the idiocy that resulted in Peclis.

  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 5,992

    Amonkhet said:

    Aranessa is a great foot lord. Net, debuff, massive AoE buff, reasonably fast, anti-large, imagine if Dwarfs had her as a lord option. She's just overshadowed by the obscenely OP Luthor and Nocti.

    Or more that Dwarves arent built at TWW2 standard.
    Sorry, it's that several WH2 lords have been massively overtuned and need to be taken down a peg because they overshadow other options.

    Going the opposite route is not acceptable, that's the idiocy that resulted in Peclis.
    Go ahead, tone her down. Its still not going to make her better than the average Greenskin or Norscan LL, so that'd be 2 out of 4 LLs useable.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 647
    Yea, you can tell how OP Luthor is (and to an extent Noctilus but that is more about Invocation of Nehek + pistol mob summon imo) by the fact that they completely crowd out Cylostra as well who has bound AOE debuff/can summon cav/survivable in both forms/has her own summon in Lore of Deep.

    Aranessa and Cylostra are balanced, Luthor is crazy OP, Noctilus combines the two most problematic parts of balancing magic in the game (healing + summons).
    Pre-Covid Forum Account: Orklads
    Discord/Steam Name: Glorious Feeder
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,644
    Totally agree with all

    Apart from
    Bombers, Deck gunners need a massive hit around +100g and removal of shield breaker, they dont need mobility as people say or armor Because they stand behind a Unbreakable front line and 140m ranged hangunners and got cannons behind them also.

    Pistol summon should be replaced with halberd summon for 2 extra WOM over original one.

    Extra powder deffinetly needs to down tp 20%.


    Also coast was OP well before bomber changes just people didnt use them as a gun line and took more balanced approach, As soon as people realized the way to go is 12 ranged units they started dominating, in many match ups that coast dominate in they dont even use bombers at all.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,660
    you don't need to use bombers every game if the threat of them removes entire build options from your opponent.

    it used to be entirely reasonable to both rush and shoot up VP, and while they had a few OP things like the summon and luthor it wasn't overall an over the top faction. Deck gunners couldn't hide behind artillery and handgunners and just expect to be a safe investment when rushing was an option.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,644
    edited October 2020
    eumaies said:

    you don't need to use bombers every game if the threat of them removes entire build options from your opponent.

    it used to be entirely reasonable to both rush and shoot up VP, and while they had a few OP things like the summon and luthor it wasn't overall an over the top faction. Deck gunners couldn't hide behind artillery and handgunners and just expect to be a safe investment when rushing was an option.

    I disagree here, i think rushing coast was never an option even before bombers and is not now when there are no bombers as the ranged units self protect eachother and fill in gaps with summons. in latest faction wars Xhiphos vanguarded whole army behind coast with no bombers, all they did was turn around summon and shoot. His build would not have changed the slightest if he knew bombers were not an option, coast jsut summed in the way followed by turing around and blasting everything from range.

    Start 3:21:47

    Problems are that coast can take 12 ranged and still a front line because how good their chaff and ranged are, any other faction would have issued protecting 12 ranged units but because of summons who dont break you can take 5 front line troops and summon 7 more (nutolious)
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,709
    eumaies said:

    you don't need to use bombers every game if the threat of them removes entire build options from your opponent.

    it used to be entirely reasonable to both rush and shoot up VP, and while they had a few OP things like the summon and luthor it wasn't overall an over the top faction. Deck gunners couldn't hide behind artillery and handgunners and just expect to be a safe investment when rushing was an option.

    Coast has been a first pick in tournaments ever since the release of the DLC.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,660
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    you don't need to use bombers every game if the threat of them removes entire build options from your opponent.

    it used to be entirely reasonable to both rush and shoot up VP, and while they had a few OP things like the summon and luthor it wasn't overall an over the top faction. Deck gunners couldn't hide behind artillery and handgunners and just expect to be a safe investment when rushing was an option.

    Coast has been a first pick in tournaments ever since the release of the DLC.
    I’m referring to the brief period between their hefty nerfs and the huge bomber upgrade. They were not a problem in tourneys during that time.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,644
    I say they were before the bomber buffs, just not many people played them, but when picked dominated.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,660

    eumaies said:

    you don't need to use bombers every game if the threat of them removes entire build options from your opponent.

    it used to be entirely reasonable to both rush and shoot up VP, and while they had a few OP things like the summon and luthor it wasn't overall an over the top faction. Deck gunners couldn't hide behind artillery and handgunners and just expect to be a safe investment when rushing was an option.

    I disagree here, i think rushing coast was never an option even before bombers and is not now when there are no bombers as the ranged units self protect eachother and fill in gaps with summons. in latest faction wars Xhiphos vanguarded whole army behind coast with no bombers, all they did was turn around summon and shoot. His build would not have changed the slightest if he knew bombers were not an option, coast jsut summed in the way followed by turing around and blasting everything from range.

    Start 3:21:47

    Problems are that coast can take 12 ranged and still a front line because how good their chaff and ranged are, any other faction would have issued protecting 12 ranged units but because of summons who dont break you can take 5 front line troops and summon 7 more (nutolious)
    With summons right they are the only faction who basically gets 16 ranged units. So yeah that’s unique and should be nerfed.

    But the counter to massed range is not a (fully expected) rush with expensive glass cannon cavalry. It’s a wide rush with infantry. Unfortuntately a) wood elf infantry is sub par for rushes and expensive, and b) bombers exist and make that suicidal.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,644
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    you don't need to use bombers every game if the threat of them removes entire build options from your opponent.

    it used to be entirely reasonable to both rush and shoot up VP, and while they had a few OP things like the summon and luthor it wasn't overall an over the top faction. Deck gunners couldn't hide behind artillery and handgunners and just expect to be a safe investment when rushing was an option.

    I disagree here, i think rushing coast was never an option even before bombers and is not now when there are no bombers as the ranged units self protect eachother and fill in gaps with summons. in latest faction wars Xhiphos vanguarded whole army behind coast with no bombers, all they did was turn around summon and shoot. His build would not have changed the slightest if he knew bombers were not an option, coast jsut summed in the way followed by turing around and blasting everything from range.

    Start 3:21:47

    Problems are that coast can take 12 ranged and still a front line because how good their chaff and ranged are, any other faction would have issued protecting 12 ranged units but because of summons who dont break you can take 5 front line troops and summon 7 more (nutolious)
    With summons right they are the only faction who basically gets 16 ranged units. So yeah that’s unique and should be nerfed.

    But the counter to massed range is not a (fully expected) rush with expensive glass cannon cavalry. It’s a wide rush with infantry. Unfortuntately a) wood elf infantry is sub par for rushes and expensive, and b) bombers exist and make that suicidal.

    Try doing same build as EMpire and SKV and u see how fast WE would run over it with this army.

    Well if summosn got removed than there be no need to nerf their ranged that hard, could keep hangunners OP but deck gunners would still need a nerf.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,660

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    you don't need to use bombers every game if the threat of them removes entire build options from your opponent.

    it used to be entirely reasonable to both rush and shoot up VP, and while they had a few OP things like the summon and luthor it wasn't overall an over the top faction. Deck gunners couldn't hide behind artillery and handgunners and just expect to be a safe investment when rushing was an option.

    I disagree here, i think rushing coast was never an option even before bombers and is not now when there are no bombers as the ranged units self protect eachother and fill in gaps with summons. in latest faction wars Xhiphos vanguarded whole army behind coast with no bombers, all they did was turn around summon and shoot. His build would not have changed the slightest if he knew bombers were not an option, coast jsut summed in the way followed by turing around and blasting everything from range.

    Start 3:21:47

    Problems are that coast can take 12 ranged and still a front line because how good their chaff and ranged are, any other faction would have issued protecting 12 ranged units but because of summons who dont break you can take 5 front line troops and summon 7 more (nutolious)
    With summons right they are the only faction who basically gets 16 ranged units. So yeah that’s unique and should be nerfed.

    But the counter to massed range is not a (fully expected) rush with expensive glass cannon cavalry. It’s a wide rush with infantry. Unfortuntately a) wood elf infantry is sub par for rushes and expensive, and b) bombers exist and make that suicidal.

    Try doing same build as EMpire and SKV and u see how fast WE would run over it with this army.

    Well if summosn got removed than there be no need to nerf their ranged that hard, could keep hangunners OP but deck gunners would still need a nerf.
    i have to assume the hatred for deck gunners comes from playing wood elves a ton. Which is understandable. But WE will have a bigger roster soon. And in general deck gunners are really not an overperforming unit at all once bombers are priced properly and rushes can be done again.

    empire and skaven play completely differently. Skaven are far more mobile and empire has flimsy cowardly ranged but a much wider range of builds to choose from. Of course you wouldn't do the same build with either faction. Nevertheless, the counter to massed range is mass infantry.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,644
    edited October 2020
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    you don't need to use bombers every game if the threat of them removes entire build options from your opponent.

    it used to be entirely reasonable to both rush and shoot up VP, and while they had a few OP things like the summon and luthor it wasn't overall an over the top faction. Deck gunners couldn't hide behind artillery and handgunners and just expect to be a safe investment when rushing was an option.

    I disagree here, i think rushing coast was never an option even before bombers and is not now when there are no bombers as the ranged units self protect eachother and fill in gaps with summons. in latest faction wars Xhiphos vanguarded whole army behind coast with no bombers, all they did was turn around summon and shoot. His build would not have changed the slightest if he knew bombers were not an option, coast jsut summed in the way followed by turing around and blasting everything from range.

    Start 3:21:47

    Problems are that coast can take 12 ranged and still a front line because how good their chaff and ranged are, any other faction would have issued protecting 12 ranged units but because of summons who dont break you can take 5 front line troops and summon 7 more (nutolious)
    With summons right they are the only faction who basically gets 16 ranged units. So yeah that’s unique and should be nerfed.

    But the counter to massed range is not a (fully expected) rush with expensive glass cannon cavalry. It’s a wide rush with infantry. Unfortuntately a) wood elf infantry is sub par for rushes and expensive, and b) bombers exist and make that suicidal.

    Try doing same build as EMpire and SKV and u see how fast WE would run over it with this army.

    Well if summosn got removed than there be no need to nerf their ranged that hard, could keep hangunners OP but deck gunners would still need a nerf.
    i have to assume the hatred for deck gunners comes from playing wood elves a ton. Which is understandable. But WE will have a bigger roster soon. And in general deck gunners are really not an overperforming unit at all once bombers are priced properly and rushes can be done again.

    empire and skaven play completely differently. Skaven are far more mobile and empire has flimsy cowardly ranged but a much wider range of builds to choose from. Of course you wouldn't do the same build with either faction. Nevertheless, the counter to massed range is mass infantry.
    Nah hatred for deck gunners for me comes from them being OP,and i do think they are an over perfroming unit by big amount, doesn't look like we will agree on it. I do think +100g is them getting of easy also, +100g and nerf to shield breaker and extra powder is what i consider ideal to them.


    Also i dont agree that mass infantry counters mass ranged of coast, because they dont break and can shoot into eachothers combats while delaying your other units with summons, if it was not for summons and you could match their untis 1 for 1 than sure it could work.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,294
    edited October 2020

    hink rushing coast was never an option even before bombers and is not now when there are no bombers as the ranged units self protect eachother and fill in gaps with summons. in latest faction wars Xhiphos vanguarded whole army behind coast with no bombers, all they did was turn around summon and shoot.

    Whole gunline of Coast was turned to face Vanguard. Dogs were placed in Coast deploy zone. ANY vanguard vs ANY faction would fail if you anticipate it like that. As i heard Enticity streamed game, so probably he had just know what his clanmate use vs Coast and anticipated vanguard.
    And it was very close game despite Vanguard total failure of Vanguard surprise factor.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,644
    tank3487 said:

    hink rushing coast was never an option even before bombers and is not now when there are no bombers as the ranged units self protect eachother and fill in gaps with summons. in latest faction wars Xhiphos vanguarded whole army behind coast with no bombers, all they did was turn around summon and shoot.

    Whole gunline of Coast was turned to face Vanguard. Dogs were placed in Coast deploy zone. ANY vanguard vs ANY faction would fail if you anticipate it like that. As i heard Enticity streamed game, so probably he had just know what his clanmate use vs Coast and anticipated vanguard.
    And it was very close game despite Vanguard total failure of Vanguard surprise factor.
    No at all, they had 2 shots before bing in melee and than guns and hangunners were engaged, there is no way coast should have won that if it was no BS faction.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,644
    edited October 2020
    It be great if Overcst summon, cost +2 WOM over normal one and summoned halberds instead of pistols by great i mean less broken...still too good though.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,294
    edited October 2020


    No at all, they had 2 shots before bing in melee and than guns and hangunners were engaged, there is no way coast should have won that if it was no BS faction.

    Coast had just 7 range units or 4850 gold investment. Rest of army are melee(and mostly slow, defence oriented units). Coast was turned to face Vanguard, so vanguard failed to use main advantage of time wasted on turning. Dogs were deployed in such position that they were able to support melee vs Vanguard. Crabs and halberds protected from Vanguard reaching range.
    If Coast had read Vanguard(and not just that there is Vanguard, but also position of deployment) deployment do not see reason why they should lose this game.
  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,142
    Xiphos said:

    eumaies said:


    - Similarly, deck gunners have very well defined weaknesses, unlike the zombie mobs. Strong, yes, but none of the mobility of skaven weapon teams or bowshabti. They definitely should not be nerfed. You get value from killing them, they are not what's wrong with the VP roster.

    - noctilus I don't really think needs more nerfs.

    Noctilus is still very op, especially his crazy range summon, and deck gunners are super op, one of the unit that carries coast and enables gun builds to trash literally everything. If you don't want price bump on them then they should get the shieldbreaker removed.

    And if you ask me, i discussed those changes with Enticity, the master of Vampire Coast, and he told me he'd still feel comfortable with deck gunners being 800 golds, because that is the price they deserve.
    I don't know that Noctilus is OP so much as he is a super expensive vampire lord who will at that price have a large impact on a game.
    I get the sense sometimes people may see how strong he is relative to whatever lord they brought but not necessarily fully take into account he costs 3571 points fully decked out (more than imrik on a star dragon fully decked out 3369)

    I say start with bombers for changes to coast and then re evaluate once they are adjusted.

    I remember before the explosion mechanic adjustment and bomber changes Coast had the lowest overall tournament win rate in the post pinned at top of the forum.
  • XiphosXiphos Registered Users Posts: 177



    I don't know that Noctilus is OP so much as he is a super expensive vampire lord who will at that price have a large impact on a game.
    I get the sense sometimes people may see how strong he is relative to whatever lord they brought but not necessarily fully take into account he costs 3571 points fully decked out (more than imrik on a star dragon fully decked out 3369)

    I say start with bombers for changes to coast and then re evaluate once they are adjusted.

    I remember before the explosion mechanic adjustment and bomber changes Coast had the lowest overall tournament win rate in the post pinned at top of the forum.



    Alright so Noctilus is usually played on foot, he doesn't even need to be on necrofex, it makes him vulnerable to many things especially sniping, on foot withh all his abilities, summon item, nehek and drowned dead he is only 2381 golds, that's a steal for what he does which is :
    -being almost unkillable
    -heals ups whatever he wished
    -has double summon
    -sniping spell that works aswell on single entities than it does on other units of cav or infantry
    -access to arcane conduit so he has no issue spamming his spells
    -being anti large makes his actually pretty scary to many lords and heroes

    If you put him on his necrofex he will become even stronger, but easier to snipe and that is why you don't see him often on his mount, then he costs 3081 golds.

    Bombers need a big nerf, that is no question, but you will see now, that in many coast armies, they don't even need bombers, just frontline of unbreakable zombies that never die, and then around 10 guns behind them that annihilate everything that comes in range. And yet deck gunners are op and not only against WE, they are used against everybody and even canon builds do not counter them because :
    -they miss a lot
    -if they hit VC can just nehek the gunners

    And obviously you do not counter them with archers either, because your archers will be dead before they can shoot them if they are placed properly in the army.

    Also wide infantry rush is bad vs coast, we had the proof many times, infantry gets melted by bombers, if bombers are not here the guns will do the same job in 2 volleys, then you tell me wide infantry build with mass archers, but no, this is where deck gunners shine, your archers die too fast + there should be a threat of scurvy dogs.

    The coast and effectiveness of all the guns is a huge problem, if you add +50g to all of them, it's gonna remove 1 gun in any coast army that focuses on them, then maybe it will look balanced.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 650
    I know there is no precedent for mount removal yet, but couldn't Luthor's terroghesit be campaign only? And maybe give vanguard to Luthor on foot. The flying mount doesn't only make him so op, it kinda ruins his pirate archetype. He should be a foot lord.
  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,142
    Xiphos said:



    I don't know that Noctilus is OP so much as he is a super expensive vampire lord who will at that price have a large impact on a game.
    I get the sense sometimes people may see how strong he is relative to whatever lord they brought but not necessarily fully take into account he costs 3571 points fully decked out (more than imrik on a star dragon fully decked out 3369)

    I say start with bombers for changes to coast and then re evaluate once they are adjusted.

    I remember before the explosion mechanic adjustment and bomber changes Coast had the lowest overall tournament win rate in the post pinned at top of the forum.



    Alright so Noctilus is usually played on foot, he doesn't even need to be on necrofex, it makes him vulnerable to many things especially sniping, on foot withh all his abilities, summon item, nehek and drowned dead he is only 2381 golds, that's a steal for what he does which is :
    -being almost unkillable
    -heals ups whatever he wished
    -has double summon
    -sniping spell that works aswell on single entities than it does on other units of cav or infantry
    -access to arcane conduit so he has no issue spamming his spells
    -being anti large makes his actually pretty scary to many lords and heroes

    If you put him on his necrofex he will become even stronger, but easier to snipe and that is why you don't see him often on his mount, then he costs 3081 golds.

    Bombers need a big nerf, that is no question, but you will see now, that in many coast armies, they don't even need bombers, just frontline of unbreakable zombies that never die, and then around 10 guns behind them that annihilate everything that comes in range. And yet deck gunners are op and not only against WE, they are used against everybody and even canon builds do not counter them because :
    -they miss a lot
    -if they hit VC can just nehek the gunners

    And obviously you do not counter them with archers either, because your archers will be dead before they can shoot them if they are placed properly in the army.

    Also wide infantry rush is bad vs coast, we had the proof many times, infantry gets melted by bombers, if bombers are not here the guns will do the same job in 2 volleys, then you tell me wide infantry build with mass archers, but no, this is where deck gunners shine, your archers die too fast + there should be a threat of scurvy dogs.

    The coast and effectiveness of all the guns is a huge problem, if you add +50g to all of them, it's gonna remove 1 gun in any coast army that focuses on them, then maybe it will look balanced.
    I believe you are looking at coast from the perspective of wood elves the faction that was one of the 3 worst matchups against coast even when they did have 40% tournament win rate.

    So while you are going in the right direction your nerfs are skewed too harsh compared with the buffs you suggest imo
    considering that before the explosion /bomber changes coast had even to positive tournament win rates against 4 factions and negative win rates against 10 factions with the most matchups under 30% win rate of any other faction. (7)

    IE " - Noctilus --> -100m range on his zombie summon item, +50 base cost"
    That would turn an item that summons two zombies now at less range than base spell (300 chaff unit not ranged version) into the highest priced item in the game.

    It would cost more than the item that summons a unit of poison chaos spawn (900 priced unit)
  • lomwyMad_lomwyMad_ Registered Users Posts: 14
    edited October 2020
    Great post. Id add few extra points to it.

    First of all the nerfs :
    A.) Bombers should cost more like +100g. 450 with current mechanic is still too cost effective and not enough nerf.
    B.) Pistol summons should get hit with series of nerfs : 1.) Increase WoM for overcast, 2.) Take away extra duration from overcast (Why do they even have it in first place?) 3.) Disable extra powder on pistol summons.
    C.) Both noctilus and luthor need to lower their LD and take less on power bar. I literally had Noctilus fight alone vs 10 stacks of followers including hexwraith, tombguard, arkhan and the balance power was perfectly in the middle. On top of that, they basically never shatter and sometimes not even crumble (Especially luthor)
    D.) Possibly lower ammunition on deck droppers - Cut it down to like 13 on on handguns, 15 on normal ones

    For buffs I think that depth guard and maybe syreens(Tho here it is a huge risk and syreens buff should happen only with wide nerfs proposed. Otherwise dont touch them as they are already pretty damn good) need cost reduction on top of proposed buffs.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,660

    tank3487 said:

    hink rushing coast was never an option even before bombers and is not now when there are no bombers as the ranged units self protect eachother and fill in gaps with summons. in latest faction wars Xhiphos vanguarded whole army behind coast with no bombers, all they did was turn around summon and shoot.

    Whole gunline of Coast was turned to face Vanguard. Dogs were placed in Coast deploy zone. ANY vanguard vs ANY faction would fail if you anticipate it like that. As i heard Enticity streamed game, so probably he had just know what his clanmate use vs Coast and anticipated vanguard.
    And it was very close game despite Vanguard total failure of Vanguard surprise factor.
    No at all, they had 2 shots before bing in melee and than guns and hangunners were engaged, there is no way coast should have won that if it was no BS faction.
    Nah. I mean cavalry vs other factions can sweep through and continue ping ponging from unit to unit, but vs zombies and guns it's a very risky approach (not stupid like me taking 3 gyros vs VC, but still :) ). Going into an expected ranged-swarm build with only 12 units in your army, and with the most valuable ones being large models that guns can shoot at even while they're engaged in combat is a huge liability. You want width with infantry faster than zombies that can ignore some of their infantry and you want small targets that make it dificult for layered guns to be able to shoot you. Unfortunately, wood elf don't have great rush toolkit vs coast - infantry options are really limited and expensive (or kill way too slowly in the case of eternal guard here).

  • IMayboIMaybo Registered Users Posts: 457
    the first battle of the final was indeed a close game
    I think due to Xiphos's mistakes he lost that game, especially the fact that he used almost NO cycle-charge vs zombies
    I wonder if Felckon would win against this build, still using the rush build from WE

    on the other hand, the first and second game showed how little VCoast really needs to be victorious
    despite some individuals usually praising the stats of glade guard compared to other archers, the second game shows how hard it is to defend 5 ranged WE glade guards vs defending 7 ranged units from VCoast
    even crumbling dogs still manage to inflict good damage, summoned zombos on top of the archers, completely shutting down their shooting

    if dwarves were not so good vs VCoast, I would say they have no counters
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,660
    IMaybo said:

    the first battle of the final was indeed a close game
    I think due to Xiphos's mistakes he lost that game, especially the fact that he used almost NO cycle-charge vs zombies
    I wonder if Felckon would win against this build, still using the rush build from WE

    on the other hand, the first and second game showed how little VCoast really needs to be victorious
    despite some individuals usually praising the stats of glade guard compared to other archers, the second game shows how hard it is to defend 5 ranged WE glade guards vs defending 7 ranged units from VCoast
    even crumbling dogs still manage to inflict good damage, summoned zombos on top of the archers, completely shutting down their shooting

    if dwarves were not so good vs VCoast, I would say they have no counters

    I think we all agree Vcoast is nuts right now.
  • RheingoldRheingold Registered Users Posts: 892
    Coast definitely needs nerfs, and will get some. I just think that it's way to much nerfs at once. Bombers and Harkon are a very good start. Gunners also need a nerf.
    Start with that first then see what else needs to be done.
    Also summons in general need a nerf. Across the board.
  • XiphosXiphos Registered Users Posts: 177
    IMaybo said:

    the first battle of the final was indeed a close game
    I think due to Xiphos's mistakes he lost that game, especially the fact that he used almost NO cycle-charge vs zombies
    I wonder if Felckon would win against this build, still using the rush build from WE

    on the other hand, the first and second game showed how little VCoast really needs to be victorious
    despite some individuals usually praising the stats of glade guard compared to other archers, the second game shows how hard it is to defend 5 ranged WE glade guards vs defending 7 ranged units from VCoast
    even crumbling dogs still manage to inflict good damage, summoned zombos on top of the archers, completely shutting down their shooting

    if dwarves were not so good vs VCoast, I would say they have no counters

    Thing is, you cannot cycle charge coast with cav, and you know why , be cause when you turn your back with your shielded cav, you get shot, and you take full damage, you disengage, and then same story you will get stuck on zombies. I am not the best with that kind of tactic, but i didn't do so many mistakes.

    I had a big conversation with Felkon who plays that kind of tactic very often, and basically he told me that you simply CANNOT stop or turn your back to coast when you do this, you have to go straight forward, and punch through, force your path into zombies that are freaking unbreakable walls, and go straight to their guns, easier said than done right ? and even tho he only got 1 volley max on me before i got in melee, my army got dragged through the mud by zombies, simply because they are too numerous and do not die fast enough.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,709
    eumaies said:

    tank3487 said:

    hink rushing coast was never an option even before bombers and is not now when there are no bombers as the ranged units self protect eachother and fill in gaps with summons. in latest faction wars Xhiphos vanguarded whole army behind coast with no bombers, all they did was turn around summon and shoot.

    Whole gunline of Coast was turned to face Vanguard. Dogs were placed in Coast deploy zone. ANY vanguard vs ANY faction would fail if you anticipate it like that. As i heard Enticity streamed game, so probably he had just know what his clanmate use vs Coast and anticipated vanguard.
    And it was very close game despite Vanguard total failure of Vanguard surprise factor.
    No at all, they had 2 shots before bing in melee and than guns and hangunners were engaged, there is no way coast should have won that if it was no BS faction.
    Nah. I mean cavalry vs other factions can sweep through and continue ping ponging from unit to unit, but vs zombies and guns it's a very risky approach (not stupid like me taking 3 gyros vs VC, but still :) ). Going into an expected ranged-swarm build with only 12 units in your army, and with the most valuable ones being large models that guns can shoot at even while they're engaged in combat is a huge liability. You want width with infantry faster than zombies that can ignore some of their infantry and you want small targets that make it dificult for layered guns to be able to shoot you. Unfortunately, wood elf don't have great rush toolkit vs coast - infantry options are really limited and expensive (or kill way too slowly in the case of eternal guard here).

    light cavalry was always decent vs Coast.

    Small SEs such as Eagles were always decent vs Coast.

    Dreads do a decent enough job at rushing and though overall a subpar unit, vs Coast they are average to good to kill the frontline.

    WE archers are some of the best in the game jn terms of value/investment (the basic ones).

    Wild Riders are a cav for 1100g, but they also punch for 1100g. Overall they are an alright rush unit.

    Also more generally, it's not like it's a sacred right to camp with guns vs anyone. With Dwarves excluded from these considerations, as that's all they can do, but Coast can do other things also.

    Camping with 12+ ranged should see the camping faction lose every time, that's how you play campaign, where the AI is unable to path through the 4-5 melee units you bought. In this game, there are a few counters, and melee rush should ALWAYS counter a defensive build because the idea behind it is that you need to buy time for your guns to do damage, which vs 10k+ of melee troops you generally don't have time to.

    The fact that Coast is able to ignore this simple principle and spam 12+ ranged cards regardless of matchup and enemy army composition, as well as stuff like 550g Handguns outshooting nearly every unit of same price tier in the game is precisely what makes Coast OP. Bombers are part of the problem, yes, in that they deny melee rush even harder for too cheap, but even without Bombers, Coast was able to play this defensive style with too many guns vs anyone.

    Try taking 12+ guns as Empire, you will get mowed down, because you are a campaign player, as Coast apparently you are an innovator instead.
    mightygloin_fan_1
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