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Skaven ruthlessness not really shown in TWWH2 battles

Mythicveil1415Mythicveil1415 Registered Users Posts: 16
edited November 2020 in General Discussion
Ok so anyone know how on the battlefield, Skaven still get obstructed? Well, they shouldn't. In the lore skaven are just as willing to shoot skaven slaves as if they are enemies, so why bother with an obstruction mechanic? Just let those rattling guns kill-kill/ rip-rip (dont pay attention to skaven impression) into everything. additionally, friendly fire should grant xp to the skaven instead of taking it way.

Oh yeah, and if people feel like no obstruction is too hard to pay attention to, have a "ignore obstructions" toggle button to make things easier.

So, what do you guys think? Should this be implemented, at least to an extent? Why or why not?

Edit: yeah, for other races too like greenskinz.
Post edited by Mythicveil1415 on

Comments

  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,787
    edited November 2020
    Yes. for Greenskinz/Hobgoblins too.
    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • Mythicveil1415Mythicveil1415 Registered Users Posts: 16

    Yes. for Greenskinz/Hobgoblins too.

    nice. forgot to mention other "self-ruthless" races too
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 3,377
    It's probably a user-friendliness thing to avoid players (especially new ones) to screw over themselves.

    But yes, it probably should be more... loose.
  • Mythicveil1415Mythicveil1415 Registered Users Posts: 16
    edited November 2020

    It's probably a user-friendliness thing to avoid players (especially new ones) to screw over themselves.

    But yes, it probably should be more... loose.

    Maybe use a toggle on/off button for intense friendly fire and have it off by default? Or make it depend on difficulty level? Idk, just feels like something CA could implement relatively easily.
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 6,766
    Yeah, absolutely. I know I've bombed and burned my own units, when I saw that obstruction thing I was shocked.
    Campaign Management is for suckers.

  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,991
    Skaven chaff should be invisible to their ranged units.
  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531
    Yea would be nice, I really don’t like the obstruction at all. Just shoot. If you kill your own , too bad, figure it out for next time imo. This wasn’t in older TW games, and the fact units just don’t fire because friendlies(cannon fodder) is literally every melee infantry unit in this game is frustrating. The way they balanced this game, infantry is just there to die, while your ranged units get the kills, either fix that, or let me kill my own cannon fodder Yes-yes.
  • BrynjarKBrynjarK Registered Users Posts: 835
    edited November 2020
    You can target the ground with artilerry. Should satisfy your genicide needs.

    To obliterate your own frontlines in front of your own elites, is never good for morale, and any warlord or grey sheer sporting this behavior can expect retaliations, from the skaven ssociety. Better to let stupid frontline rats die by themselves (if absolutely nottin to shoot - wll at least saves ammo) then proclaim they made the ultimate sacrifice for the horned one, rieling the rest of your army making them even more zealous. Then proceed to unleash the doom devices under your command.

    This marveloous display of leadership will then strengthen your grip on the (stupid) strong warriors and chiefs in your army, making them far likely urge a desire for new leadership.
  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 2,435
    I mean I get quite a bit of friendly fire with my Skaven armies, mostly from globes,warpfire and artillery and that feels rather accurate.

    It doesn't make sense for Ratling Guns or Jezzails to fire through friendly columns though. That is literally just helping your enemy.

    So I do not see the problem.
  • TheLowKingTheLowKing Registered Users Posts: 210
    Skaven are ruthless, not stupid.

    Obstructed means your own troops are in the way, that shooting will just hit your own troops. Skaven are fine shooting into a combat at a risk of hitting their own forces, they can already do that. They are not going to just mow their own troops down from behind for the lols, on the basis that eventually they might reach some enemies.

  • Mythicveil1415Mythicveil1415 Registered Users Posts: 16
    So what about the times that shooting down skavenslaves as well as greatswords is actually for the better? Just because the unit perceives itself as obstructed does not mean it cant shoot. So at least have an option to toggle friendly fire shooting when it makes sense. Skaven are practical, not sentimental. Thats why they have friendly fire poison in the first place.
  • Mythicveil1415Mythicveil1415 Registered Users Posts: 16
    MrDragon said:

    I mean I get quite a bit of friendly fire with my Skaven armies, mostly from globes,warpfire and artillery and that feels rather accurate.

    It doesn't make sense for Ratling Guns or Jezzails to fire through friendly columns though. That is literally just helping your enemy.

    So I do not see the problem.

    The problem is that skaven melee dont tend to be good, only there to swamp enemies and hold them back so they can get mowed down by ranged/artillery. So there should be a choice to make a judgment call. Is it better to let the skaven last longer without generating value from ranged units? Or is it better to mow down the enemies elite stuff as well as your own cheap melee? Depends on situation.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,900
    Sorry, what exactly is the problem? You're aware the best way to play Skaven is to fully commit to nothing but shooting, right? What do you need slaves for when your troops can bomb the enemy out of the game before they get even close anyway?
  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531

    Sorry, what exactly is the problem? You're aware the best way to play Skaven is to fully commit to nothing but shooting, right? What do you need slaves for when your troops can bomb the enemy out of the game before they get even close anyway?

    You still spawn Skaven slaves with heroes/menace below, and sometimes in sieges, u could emergency raise/move a small army somewhere and you’ll have friendly crap garrison units.

    And in the early game u can’t really afford to have all those heroes to blob the enemy for the ranged units. You need something in the early game, and the obstruction mechanic messes a lot up.
  • Mythicveil1415Mythicveil1415 Registered Users Posts: 16
    edited November 2020

    Sorry, what exactly is the problem? You're aware the best way to play Skaven is to fully commit to nothing but shooting, right? What do you need slaves for when your troops can bomb the enemy out of the game before they get even close anyway?

    not everyone never uses melee infantry in the entire course of a game, so there is some significance to what im saying.
  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 2,435
    edited November 2020

    MrDragon said:

    I mean I get quite a bit of friendly fire with my Skaven armies, mostly from globes,warpfire and artillery and that feels rather accurate.

    It doesn't make sense for Ratling Guns or Jezzails to fire through friendly columns though. That is literally just helping your enemy.

    So I do not see the problem.

    The problem is that skaven melee dont tend to be good, only there to swamp enemies and hold them back so they can get mowed down by ranged/artillery. So there should be a choice to make a judgment call. Is it better to let the skaven last longer without generating value from ranged units? Or is it better to mow down the enemies elite stuff as well as your own cheap melee? Depends on situation.
    Uhm... ever heard of flanking?
    Ratlings into the side or rear of the melee once the battle lines are drawn is how you actually get the most kills with them once the melee starts.

    Shooting your slaves/clanrats from behind will only let the enemy melee units close on your ratlings faster.
  • Mythicveil1415Mythicveil1415 Registered Users Posts: 16
    MrDragon said:

    MrDragon said:

    I mean I get quite a bit of friendly fire with my Skaven armies, mostly from globes,warpfire and artillery and that feels rather accurate.

    It doesn't make sense for Ratling Guns or Jezzails to fire through friendly columns though. That is literally just helping your enemy.

    So I do not see the problem.

    The problem is that skaven melee dont tend to be good, only there to swamp enemies and hold them back so they can get mowed down by ranged/artillery. So there should be a choice to make a judgment call. Is it better to let the skaven last longer without generating value from ranged units? Or is it better to mow down the enemies elite stuff as well as your own cheap melee? Depends on situation.
    Uhm... ever heard of flanking?
    Ratlings into the side or rear of the melee once the battle lines are drawn is how you actually get the most kills with them once the melee starts.

    Shooting your slaves/clanrats from behind will only let the enemy melee units close on your ratlings faster.
    Ideally, yes. Is that situation always possible? No. Either the ranged have to flank or your units have to flank. That is not always possible. And getting surrounds means that you might still want to surround in back with chaff for leadership debuff, but might still want to shoot. I agree its not always ideal to shoot your own units, but there should be at least an option to activate friendly fire, with its default off.
  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 2,435

    MrDragon said:

    MrDragon said:

    I mean I get quite a bit of friendly fire with my Skaven armies, mostly from globes,warpfire and artillery and that feels rather accurate.

    It doesn't make sense for Ratling Guns or Jezzails to fire through friendly columns though. That is literally just helping your enemy.

    So I do not see the problem.

    The problem is that skaven melee dont tend to be good, only there to swamp enemies and hold them back so they can get mowed down by ranged/artillery. So there should be a choice to make a judgment call. Is it better to let the skaven last longer without generating value from ranged units? Or is it better to mow down the enemies elite stuff as well as your own cheap melee? Depends on situation.
    Uhm... ever heard of flanking?
    Ratlings into the side or rear of the melee once the battle lines are drawn is how you actually get the most kills with them once the melee starts.

    Shooting your slaves/clanrats from behind will only let the enemy melee units close on your ratlings faster.
    Ideally, yes. Is that situation always possible? No. Either the ranged have to flank or your units have to flank. That is not always possible. And getting surrounds means that you might still want to surround in back with chaff for leadership debuff, but might still want to shoot. I agree its not always ideal to shoot your own units, but there should be at least an option to activate friendly fire, with its default off.
    But the outcome is that the you suddenly invert the functionality of your meatshield. Now the enemy is the one with the meatshield, one you paid money for.
    Artillery can already fire into your own troops if you manually set the target. Direct fire units would just be wasting ammo on your own troops. It's literally detrimental to your own chances of victory.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,838
    Obstruction does not work in that way, mechanically, in this game.

    So the real situations were you would be able to fire the enemy and your troops are very limited, or can already be done.
  • roekkumroekkum Registered Users Posts: 367
    Obstruction is something I seldom understand in this game, because it happens so often I usually don't order my skirmishers anymore, just let them find targets automatically. Because if I order them, they will say there's an obstruction and won't fire, but if they fire by themselves they will manage to fire at the same target. Some units are worse than others, like gunpowder and certain artillery. I would like to have the option to toggle friendly fire.
  • Artjuh90Artjuh90 Registered Users Posts: 1,299
    edited November 2020
    obstrucion is also a way to kinda balance gunpowder units a bit. otherwise you would not chose archers over gunpwoder units if the faction has them. i kinda think obstruction is a good thing. you know you could also move your ranged units and not let the game play itself but actually play the game. and for artillery you can still fire on place with alt click. ranged units are already to powerfull in the game in my opinion and do not need even more buffs making melee infantry even less useless especially the higher tiered ones
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 3,359

    It's probably a user-friendliness thing to avoid players (especially new ones) to screw over themselves.

    But yes, it probably should be more... loose.

    Who cares about new players.



    They can kill themselves as much as they like and soon enough they can learn to stop doing it. And if they don't learn and ragequits, well, people under 12 shouldn't be playing this game to begin with so win-win.
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