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The Age Of High Mass Is Over - The Time of Infantry Has Begun

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  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 8,513
    but magic got dumber
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,755
    Cadia101 said:

    3/5 of these changes could really mess up gameplay for the worse. *facepalm*

    Minimum cast distance shouldn’t have been removed, the rest are the best.
    Nah, double buffs to camping, in forest or otherwise. Hero blob also big buff. General buff to defensive geometry.

    I hope they play tested this competitively because I can totally see this killing the entertainment value of comp games.

    Time to dust off the resist stack boxes, hero blob, artillery/jezzal/deckgunner/ww box in forest that can't be counterfired, ib/gyro, pg/airspam etc. A lot of crappy builds just got buffed. Enjoy...
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,136

    Cadia101 said:

    3/5 of these changes could really mess up gameplay for the worse. *facepalm*

    Minimum cast distance shouldn’t have been removed, the rest are the best.
    Nah, double buffs to camping, in forest or otherwise. Hero blob also big buff. General buff to defensive geometry.

    I hope they play tested this competitively because I can totally see this killing the entertainment value of comp games.

    Time to dust off the resist stack boxes, hero blob, artillery/jezzal/deckgunner/ww box in forest that can't be counterfired, ib/gyro, pg/airspam etc. A lot of crappy builds just got buffed. Enjoy...
    That is just looking at the negative tho.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,243

    Yeah, making casting even safer is the opposite of what they should have done. They should at the very least make the caster less prone to ignore the effects of AoE damage and vortices.

    Not just caster, all SEMs, large creatures should take similarish damage to infantry from vortex.

    A treeman or treekin bathing in a flamestorm should not walk out of that with only a few burnt leaves at the end of their smallest branch.

  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,243

    Cadia101 said:

    3/5 of these changes could really mess up gameplay for the worse. *facepalm*

    Minimum cast distance shouldn’t have been removed, the rest are the best.
    Nah, double buffs to camping, in forest or otherwise. Hero blob also big buff. General buff to defensive geometry.

    I hope they play tested this competitively because I can totally see this killing the entertainment value of comp games.

    Time to dust off the resist stack boxes, hero blob, artillery/jezzal/deckgunner/ww box in forest that can't be counterfired, ib/gyro, pg/airspam etc. A lot of crappy builds just got buffed. Enjoy...
    maybe the change to halberds/spears effectiveness is minimal?
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,427
    edited November 2020

    Cadia101 said:

    3/5 of these changes could really mess up gameplay for the worse. *facepalm*

    Minimum cast distance shouldn’t have been removed, the rest are the best.
    Nah, double buffs to camping, in forest or otherwise. Hero blob also big buff. General buff to defensive geometry.

    I hope they play tested this competitively because I can totally see this killing the entertainment value of comp games.

    Time to dust off the resist stack boxes, hero blob, artillery/jezzal/deckgunner/ww box in forest that can't be counterfired, ib/gyro, pg/airspam etc. A lot of crappy builds just got buffed. Enjoy...
    If you have taken the time to think (and breathe) first you would have realized that no change ever came absolutely smoothly. As Cadia said think the positives too. Foot lords will get damage faster now. Also no one said that if a change makes a unit overperform, this unit won't get nerfs in price or otherwise.

    As for the arrows and magic thing, I disagree with that too. And I've said before that I think ranged units should be nerfed a bit across the board, more or less. And it may very well happen soon(ish).

    Edit: Disagree with the change of arrows and magic, not with the people who are against it. It might not have been clear looking at it.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    So nice to see the debate settled and let the data speak. Foot characters will be easier to kill but more deadly and not abusable in the end game. Perfect.

    Mage casting spells on himself is handy but frankly it’s not like you couldn’t bait blobs before in other ways. It’s a qol improvement even if people irrationally complain about mages calling in the artillery on themselves.

    Archers from forests makes forest camping/baiting a little stronger. Honestly my only complaint with that is that forests are still impossible to see through. I don’t mind people using terrain but I do hate playing with forests specifically just because of the visuals. Minor change though.

    And less pull through on infantry - yes please. Use the mobility to make smart choices not as a trump card Vs thick formations.

  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,506
    Well, we shall see. If indeed infantry is now much more viable, some more ways of nuking it won't automatically be bad.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 595
    I doubt that it will benefit hero blobs, they depend on AoE effects more than attacking, so taking damage instead of being thrown away is somehow a nerf (knock back doesn't stop the AoE), it's interesting. I think you will bust these blobs more easily now by focusing on the AoE source like Morathi or Fay.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,738
    Yaa min cast range should stay.

    To buff bombardments and vortex, make them reliable not like this.

    Shorter casting time for bombardments
    For consistency fo direction for vortex
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379
    This is all assuming magic doesnt change.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870

    Anyway I truly think this change will benefit everyone because now one will have to account for e.g. Tyrion on foot so now one will have to be more creative in building an army in contrast to what was being done till now where you mostly need high mass and anti-large to be competitive.

    Tyrion on foot will be insane after this change. I was lucky enough to run into someone using mountless Tyrion and his performance was surprisingly good. It'll be fun to see obscure picks like that hold their own.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,243
    blindjonn said:

    Anyway I truly think this change will benefit everyone because now one will have to account for e.g. Tyrion on foot so now one will have to be more creative in building an army in contrast to what was being done till now where you mostly need high mass and anti-large to be competitive.

    Tyrion on foot will be insane after this change. I was lucky enough to run into someone using mountless Tyrion and his performance was surprisingly good. It'll be fun to see obscure picks like that hold their own.
    I have been running a Strigoi Vamp lord on foot and have had some good success on QB with him, against Lizards for example. Often they would have a lot of AL counters like salamanders, Carnos, TempleGuard, scarvets, coldone spears etc. And my strigoi vamp was doing pretty well against them but due to being stunlocked/thrown around did not do as well as he could without being throw around.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    turin mentioned ample nerfs and rebalancing to vampire coast and increase WoM cost to manticore summons, and elves now summoning eagles instead of manticores.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 28,396
    I wonder if that means nerfs to ranged firepower in general.

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 3,438
    To me it sounded like it mostly impacts foot lords and impact on infantry is minor.

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 1,357
    My dragons, terrorgheists and hydras can finally breath a sigh of relief... and death... in my enemies faces. Definitely an improvement.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    edited November 2020
    blindjonn said:

    Anyway I truly think this change will benefit everyone because now one will have to account for e.g. Tyrion on foot so now one will have to be more creative in building an army in contrast to what was being done till now where you mostly need high mass and anti-large to be competitive.

    Tyrion on foot will be insane after this change. I was lucky enough to run into someone using mountless Tyrion and his performance was surprisingly good. It'll be fun to see obscure picks like that hold their own.
    I really think there's some misunderstanding about what this change will do and expect to see lots of people point at foot lords used and winning some games and say "ha i told you they were going to be OP."

    Tyrion on foot previously was a very tanky guy who it just so happens had no end game "presence" which may have been a factor in not taking him as much.

    Tyrion on foot now will continue to be a very tanky guy but he'll take damage a little more from charging large entities, and will also deal a little more damage to them. But, he'll be more viable in the end game. I don't think this makes him "insane" in any way.
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 498
    The change to shooting from inside a forest will promote forest camping woth artillery such as cannons. "Hiding" cannons inside a small forest will at least be a thing.

    Removed minimum range of spells like net and tempest is a bad idea. Getting caught should be bad and having these saving your ass is a way of dumbing down the game. No longer can you bait a net and move in for the kill during the CD. Now you can hold the spell until you really, really need it.

    If you cannot knock footlords out of a blob this will promote more blobs. Combined with the change that makes it harder to pull out of enemy units moves the meta away from mobility to more a static gameplay.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,427
    hanen said:

    If you cannot knock footlords out of a blob this will promote more blobs. Combined with the change that makes it harder to pull out of enemy units moves the meta away from mobility to more a static gameplay.

    In the video Grimgor is being pushed for a substantial distance. Knockback resistance =/ immovable.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    i agree the forest artillery issue does not bode too well. makes defending artillery in a forest strong vs open field artillery. I wouldn't care except i cannot stand being forced to attack an area where you can't see what the hell you're doing.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 1,357
    I like all the changes.

    The arrows thing is great and matches TT.

    The magic thing helps with the rediculous casting times on everything immensely. Keep in mind you are still more likely to miscast in combat than when not in combat, so there is that.

    I agree with Eumaies though, we need better forest visuals. Icons need to work all the time enemies are spotted/visible. Tree cover should not block icons!! Icons should be the top visual layer! PERIOD. If you zoom up enough to go behind clouds you should still see the icons. That's how icons are supposed to work. They aren't physical, they are informational like radar blips. By looking at them you know where the unit stands on the plain of the map. I really hope CA addresses this soon, because forest visibility sucks and even the youtube casters like Book of Grudges are talking about it. Nobody wants to play on perfectly good maps because of this.

    Also, whenever I heard you all talking about forest camping I thought you meant in the forest so far you can't see them. This is nothing like that.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 28,396
    Bastilean said:

    I like all the changes.

    The arrows thing is great and matches TT.

    The magic thing helps with the rediculous casting times on everything immensely. Keep in mind you are still more likely to miscast in combat than when not in combat, so there is that.

    I agree with Eumaies though, we need better forest visuals. Icons need to work all the time enemies are spotted/visible. Tree cover should not block icons!! Icons should be the top visual layer! PERIOD. If you zoom up enough to go behind clouds you should still see the icons. That's how icons are supposed to work. They aren't physical, they are informational like radar blips. By looking at them you know where the unit stands on the plain of the map. I really hope CA addresses this soon, because forest visibility sucks and even the youtube casters like Book of Grudges are talking about it. Nobody wants to play on perfectly good maps because of this.

    Also, whenever I heard you all talking about forest camping I thought you meant in the forest so far you can't see them. This is nothing like that.

    They managed to fix forest visibility in 3K, I really wonder why they can't just port the changes over to WH2. It's not like those would break the engine since they're post-processing effects or simple display order changes.

  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,243
    Not mentioned here but Turin mentions it. The nerf to summon manticore is finally here! Hopefully Lore of Beasts gets a buff in other areas though.

    Can't wait for all the patch notes.

    It looks like CA has really done well with this one.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    edited November 2020
    awful changes and completely unwarranted, will upset MP balancing heavily and many units will need 100s of gold worth of nerfs to become balanced after this choice.

    Ungrim, Grombrindal & Co. are basically now full-fledged SEMs without the M part, meaning that even traditional counters like missiles and AL cav won't work against them, making the only reliable counters either elite infantry (which not all factions have) or other duelist characters (yay RNG!)
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,136
    CA_Duck said:

    These changes are largely thanks to the feedback and testing from the Ungrim vs Stegadon thread. Some of the observations from that really highlighted where our collision mechanics and bracing/charge defense mechanics were breaking. So thanks to all who spent time testing stuff out. :)

    Yay ! I helped !
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    Green0 said:

    awful changes and completely unwarranted, will upset MP balancing heavily and many units will need 100s of gold worth of nerfs to become balanced after this choice.

    Ungrim, Grombrindal & Co. are basically now full-fledged SEMs without the M part, meaning that even traditional counters like missiles and AL cav won't work against them, making the only reliable counters either elite infantry (which not all factions have) or other duelist characters (yay RNG!)

    ummm, manticores will kill grombrindal even better than they did before. Unfortunately, they do cost +3WoM to cast but that's not really a big deal.

    I look forward to sometimes using Ungrim. Hope they fixed at least one of his items to not being useless.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 1,357
    @eumaies You mean the great eagle will kill Grombrindal faster.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    Bastilean said:

    @eumaies You mean the great eagle will kill Grombrindal faster.

    oh yeah that is quite the nerf to dark elves if they get eagles now, but i would expect they shoudl get manticores...

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