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The Age Of High Mass Is Over - The Time of Infantry Has Begun

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  • MitechMitech Registered Users Posts: 19

    To quote discord: if chariots are nerfed dwarves will skyrocket.

    Ohhh noes the Humanity!
    Isn't it always about those pesky little Dwarfs.

    Chariots aren't nerfed though and what you are afraid off is literally a bug fix, since it never was intended to work how it did.

  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,612

    CA_Duck said:

    These changes are largely thanks to the feedback and testing from the Ungrim vs Stegadon thread. Some of the observations from that really highlighted where our collision mechanics and bracing/charge defense mechanics were breaking. So thanks to all who spent time testing stuff out. :)

    How about horse characters? They were affected by this too.
    So this change impacts all collisions. Hard to quantify exactly how much it will improve horse characters though.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 264

    To quote discord: if chariots are nerfed dwarves will skyrocket.

    Please ca thoroughly test this before release.

    This could very seriously buff vp, skv, we, dwf, he archer builds, TK boxes while nerfing liz and vc pretty hard. Also TK, nor, BM, chaos could suffer hard in some mu.

    I don't think it's unfounded to be worried about a shift from dynamic meta towards static meta, and that it will reduce the entertainment value of the game. Generally moving pixels > still pixels imo. I don't think the balance between play styles is in a bad spot right now, we see all play styles and all perform.

    I disagree that this meta is particularly dynamic and that we are moving to static.

    I find the current play around chariots and SEM's and what they can "Get away with" dull and very static. Bypassing charge defence and trivialising intended counters is static. You dont have to apply much thought you how your going to use your high mobility units, you CAN do better, but you dont have to. Your chariots can blast through any infantry no worry. Just because they move faster doesn't mean they are dynamic, they play by no rules but their own atm.

    Just because infantry are slow does not mean they are static. I find having to acually leverage your mobility advantage on your high mobility units to apply advantageous charges far more intensive on skill and stratagy, far more dynamic.


    If factions get nutty strong by some units finally working as intended, they should be looked at, but that doesn't mean the units shouldn't be fixed to spare this static meta.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    Well said analog. Using a chariot to take advantage of enemy units in the complex fray with well chosen attacks is fun. Taking armies designed to win by just rolling over everything from the front with tons of healing chariots that can simply wipe out any number of infantry means instead of having to play well with them I just need to methodically kill a few counter units and then bully everything else for the win.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,202
    There is no problem if this removal of a bug and enabling of infantry comes with adjustments as, and when necessary.

    This isnt a 'loss' in the forum culture war which some seem to be taking it as this is an 'win' for a more balanced game in the long run
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,427
    edited November 2020
    And as everything will be getting damaged faster, I reckon the games will be shorter on average from now on.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    edited November 2020
    “To quote the discord”, lol.

    You don’t even know what this change is yet.

    A main reason I would use tight boxes as dwarfs is to counter chariot builds. This allows their pathetic anti mass tools to all be in one place. Chariots are not a great answer to elite boxes to start with. They instead are useful Vs spread out builds, and I assume this really won’t change that much in that regard. Wanting to avoid charging braced infantry from the front for example is not an unreasonable requirement for a highly mobile unit.

  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870

    To quote discord: if chariots are nerfed dwarves will skyrocket.

    Please ca thoroughly test this before release.

    This could very seriously buff vp, skv, we, dwf, he archer builds, TK boxes while nerfing liz and vc pretty hard. Also TK, nor, BM, chaos could suffer hard in some mu.

    I don't think it's unfounded to be worried about a shift from dynamic meta towards static meta, and that it will reduce the entertainment value of the game. Generally moving pixels > still pixels imo. I don't think the balance between play styles is in a bad spot right now, we see all play styles and all perform.

    I wouldn't worry too much. Mobility will still be immensely powerful because it lets you pick your engagements. Ranged will become more powerful, which I don't like, but it was inevitable once that bug was found and it might just become better by very small degrees. There are more hounds and light cavalry in the game now, which counter ranged.

    As for matchups, Counts, Beastmen, Chaos and even Norsca need a balance pass regardless of how this change effects them (I think Norsca is propped up by a few OP units), so now the change can be factored into that pass. Tomb Kings and Lizardmen, on the other hand, are flexible enough to cope. As for Dwarves, their bad matchups are too bad and their good matchups are too good. If the bad ones get better, their good ones can be brought into line far more easily.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    eumaies said:

    Well said analog. Using a chariot to take advantage of enemy units in the complex fray with well chosen attacks is fun. Taking armies designed to win by just rolling over everything from the front with tons of healing chariots that can simply wipe out any number of infantry means instead of having to play well with them I just need to methodically kill a few counter units and then bully everything else for the win.

    it can't be always about Dwarves and no faction in the game other than Dwarves struggles vs chariots so no empathy for infantry spam and try to veil it as something noble countering the non-existent chariot meta, not from my side.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    edited November 2020
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Well said analog. Using a chariot to take advantage of enemy units in the complex fray with well chosen attacks is fun. Taking armies designed to win by just rolling over everything from the front with tons of healing chariots that can simply wipe out any number of infantry means instead of having to play well with them I just need to methodically kill a few counter units and then bully everything else for the win.

    it can't be always about Dwarves and no faction in the game other than Dwarves struggles vs chariots so no empathy for infantry spam and try to veil it as something noble countering the non-existent chariot meta, not from my side.
    i was talking about how i bully empire armies actually. it's pretty simple - the reward for chariots can either be you get to use a unit taht takes some skill or you can have the chariots be units that simply win without effort once their counters are dead.
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 264
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Well said analog. Using a chariot to take advantage of enemy units in the complex fray with well chosen attacks is fun. Taking armies designed to win by just rolling over everything from the front with tons of healing chariots that can simply wipe out any number of infantry means instead of having to play well with them I just need to methodically kill a few counter units and then bully everything else for the win.

    it can't be always about Dwarves and no faction in the game other than Dwarves struggles vs chariots so no empathy for infantry spam and try to veil it as something noble countering the non-existent chariot meta, not from my side.
    We are not even talking about Infantry spam though. And we are not trying to veil it as anything either.

    Just the base idea that Charge defence anti large elite infantry probably shouldn't be total pushovers when fighting their intended targets.

    Do you really feel that there should continue to be extremely limited /unintentionally disadvantageous interaction here?

    It doesn't have everything to do with dwarves either, any faction with elite infantry benefits to some regard.


    And on top of all that. Chariots don't lose any of the the stuff they got going for them. They are still
    - low model
    -Hard hitting
    -Fast
    -High Mass

    What more do you want? And how much of an unfair nerf is Anti-Large infantry actually standing a chance against their charge really?
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,477
    Chariots for TK should be buffed.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Well said analog. Using a chariot to take advantage of enemy units in the complex fray with well chosen attacks is fun. Taking armies designed to win by just rolling over everything from the front with tons of healing chariots that can simply wipe out any number of infantry means instead of having to play well with them I just need to methodically kill a few counter units and then bully everything else for the win.

    it can't be always about Dwarves and no faction in the game other than Dwarves struggles vs chariots so no empathy for infantry spam and try to veil it as something noble countering the non-existent chariot meta, not from my side.
    i was talking about how i bully empire armies actually. it's pretty simple - the reward for chariots can either be you get to use a unit taht takes some skill or you can have the chariots be units that simply win without effort once their counters are dead.
    chariots are awful vs Empire, if you're referring to some random ladder games, since opponent quality wildly varies on ladder I don't see it as proof of anything to beat thePedro27 with chariots on ladder.
    Analog said:


    We are not even talking about Infantry spam though. And we are not trying to veil it as anything either.

    Just the base idea that Charge defence anti large elite infantry probably shouldn't be total pushovers when fighting their intended targets.

    infantry has no business fighting big monsters full stop. It's both unrealistic and I don't know exactly why people have the expectation that infantry should go toe to toe with big monsters only because of an AL symbol on the unit card.
    Analog said:


    Do you really feel that there should continue to be extremely limited /unintentionally disadvantageous interaction here?

    yes I think the game is working as intended right now, foot characters could get the buff that we saw in Zerkovich's video with appropriate cost increase (for example Ungrim I'd like to see get a +200/+300g for starters, likewise Grimgor etc.). Shutting down monsters should be the business of characters, missile units, artillery and AL cavalry.
    Analog said:


    And on top of all that. Chariots don't lose any of the the stuff they got going for them. They are still
    - low model
    -Hard hitting
    -Fast
    -High Mass

    they also have:

    - low DPS compared to same-cost units
    - easily bogged down
    - awful vs cavalry/large units
    - expensive

    almost like chariots are balanced and you got to pick the appropriate unit to counter them instead of headbanging the wall trying to counter them with the units that chariots are meant to be good against...
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,755
    I am very much in favour of CA taking control over the knockdown probabilities, and I contributed quite a lot to the testing I would like to think.

    What puts me off here is the scope of this change, ca are literally nerfing knockdowns of footlords by an astounding 90%, while simultaneously making it harder for mass to withdraw from infantry across the line. This is seemingly without a thought about how this will affect competitive matches where people minmax for best chance to win with no concern for player experience. Ie cheese as much as you can.

    Thus is undenyingly a buff to some builds that are already today on the strong side and are considered annoying and abusive.

    There is nothing lol about raising concerns about this. It will shake up the meta and it will feel fresh for a week or two but after that we are stuck with a new meta that may very well be worse than what we have today.

    This is such a big change, it should definitely have been rolled out through a beta test with tournaments played on a beta build.

    I find this wreckless, and I hope you just didn't kill my favorite game. I am sure it will be nice on a leisure level of play but in comp play it could get pretty ugly. It's a huge change with apparent no proper testing.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477


    There is nothing lol about raising concerns about this. It will shake up the meta and it will feel fresh for a week or two but after that we are stuck with a new meta that may very well be worse than what we have today.

    unless the changes come with big cost rebalances, such as Grimgor +400g, Ungrim +300g and so on, the game will undoubtedly feel more awful than what we have today. For example, in a Youtube video by I forget who, you can see a naked foot Noctilus (1400g) beating a Prince on Star Dragon (2600g). Regardless of reciprocal specialties, Noctilus is still a hybrid so he must feel weaker, and he's also much cheaper than a pure combat lord. He has no business doing as much damage as he did in that video and if this turns out to be the meta, it will be incredibly boring to see 3 foot characters on each side slog it out against each other since the only counter to foot character squad will be... foot character squads.

    If this patch goes live based on what we saw without further changes, it might very well kill this game for me for a while and I'm sure it will do for many other veterans, too.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    I’m referring to tourney games Vs top opponents green of course.

    Anyway as usual analog is staying the salient points with great clarity so I’ll just point to his words.

    And add that we have yet to see how meaningful the change for infantry even is. It seems incidental.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,649
    Green0 said:


    There is nothing lol about raising concerns about this. It will shake up the meta and it will feel fresh for a week or two but after that we are stuck with a new meta that may very well be worse than what we have today.

    If this patch goes live based on what we saw without further changes, it might very well kill this game for me for a while and I'm sure it will do for many other veterans, too.
    Wow give up so easily? That ain't no way a true dawi behaves lad. Do you know how many years Ungrim have waited just to be able to have the smallest chance against petty monsters he should be slaughtering left and right? Shame.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 28,396
    Yeah, this panicked attempt to already sour the changes is pretty damn sad. Can't we just wait with that until we've actually seen it in action?

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    Green any star dragon would first of all breathe on noctilus or another expensive immobile target which is where a lot of its cost comes from.

    Second it I’ll cycle charge noctilus from the rear while he’s tied up with other units.

    In other words yes he’s paying for mobility and is wasted on a static duel Vs an anti large character. Is that really no obvious to you?
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,202
    Goodness me.

    Put the toys back in the pram.

    There is nothing stopping gold and stat adjustments occurring if certain changes make units too strong or too weak.

    What we do know is certain elements of the game have not been working as intended, that is now adjusted. The game is now more 'honest' to the intent.

    I fail to see how this is a bad thing. It's onky bad if it doesn't work at all, ruins the game and the developers decide to never touch it again.

    I find that highly unlikely.

    Toys. Back in the Pram.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,477
    The change had to happen to fix a bug, they will probably nerf anything that appears bad in the Tournament before release; even if they end up vastly overnerfing it like what happened with Depth Guards.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,755
    You don't understand me, fixing the mechanics is golden good, but assigning the new working knockdown resist value to 85% is wreckless while simultaneously making it harder to disengage.

    This could turn out being a big fat bore after the first few weeks of freshness. Consider it.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,202
    It could also be absolutely fine and results in good gameplay.

    We do not know until it is played out.

    What we do know is certain units and characters were, via a bug or issues not acting how they should.

    The warning has been given by yourself and others. But harping on about it in ever increasing melodramatic tones achieves nothing but over egging it.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016

    You don't understand me, fixing the mechanics is golden good, but assigning the new working knockdown resist value to 85% is wreckless while simultaneously making it harder to disengage.

    This could turn out being a big fat bore after the first few weeks of freshness. Consider it.

    How about you consider that key foot characters like the fey are now all easier to goon.

    Or you know wait and see it’s all speculation at this point.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,066

    Amonkhet said:

    Now the question is, which units/lords will this make OP.

    None of them because being on foot still has downsides just no longer the ones that totally crippled their usefulness.
    And the obvious advantage of costing half the price. So no real disadvatages.


    This will create issues, like any other balance change would.

  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 498
    eumaies said:

    You don't understand me, fixing the mechanics is golden good, but assigning the new working knockdown resist value to 85% is wreckless while simultaneously making it harder to disengage.

    This could turn out being a big fat bore after the first few weeks of freshness. Consider it.

    How about you consider that key foot characters like the fey are now all easier to goon.

    Or you know wait and see it’s all speculation at this point.
    How is she easier to goon in a blob tho? From what I understand the changes make it harder to get to her inside the blob and harder to get away from her blob.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,755


    Just for perspective, this is a screenshot from a competitive game this patch DWF vs CHAOS featuring useless footlords and useless elite infantry. This is one kind of build that we are buffing this patch. Hyped? Worried? I am worried.

    I don't want to scream wolf but a healthy amount of realism doesn't hurt here. Be aware that this is what we are heading towards. It's great and all that we are moving away from some things that are unwanted too, but also keep in mind that what we see here is a 90% nerf to mass acting as a counter to hero squad while at the same time making disengaging harder. Not to mention how this may affect cavalry and chariot units.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 28,396
    So, shows a picture, doesn't even reveal how that battle went down and who won it or even who the opponent was, just relies on people putting his suggested "horror" scenario together in their heads.

    Classic manipulation attempt here.

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    eumaies said:

    I’m referring to tourney games Vs top opponents green of course.
    .

    ah yes the mysterious top opponents, never seen you break anything better than top 8 (don't take this as an insult there are good players around and not everyone devotes extensive time to tournaments), let alone be a regular, let alone seen you play HE regularly but somehow you make HE chariots work in matchups where they are objectively awful and not even veterans like Xiphos, Lotus, or mains like me, Disposable and so on use them... you know better of course... yeah...

    Green0 said:


    There is nothing lol about raising concerns about this. It will shake up the meta and it will feel fresh for a week or two but after that we are stuck with a new meta that may very well be worse than what we have today.

    If this patch goes live based on what we saw without further changes, it might very well kill this game for me for a while and I'm sure it will do for many other veterans, too.
    Wow give up so easily? That ain't no way a true dawi behaves lad. Do you know how many years Ungrim have waited just to be able to have the smallest chance against petty monsters he should be slaughtering left and right? Shame.
    this is not an issue since not all Dawi are stubborn and pick bad units into counters. Us innovators pick Thorgrim or Gromby, they are quite good and cost-effective even in live patch.
    eumaies said:

    Green any star dragon would first of all breathe on noctilus or another expensive immobile target which is where a lot of its cost comes from.

    Second it I’ll cycle charge noctilus from the rear while he’s tied up with other units.

    In other words yes he’s paying for mobility and is wasted on a static duel Vs an anti large character. Is that really no obvious to you?

    not sure if we are playing the same game, you can dodge breath attacks, secondly cycle charging is ineffective as when you turn your Dragon, Noctilus gets 3-4 free attacks in the rear so you suffer some 1000 dmg as you are disengaging, awful idea.

    But more to the point, a 1400g has no business beating a 2600g.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,016
    hanen said:

    eumaies said:

    You don't understand me, fixing the mechanics is golden good, but assigning the new working knockdown resist value to 85% is wreckless while simultaneously making it harder to disengage.

    This could turn out being a big fat bore after the first few weeks of freshness. Consider it.

    How about you consider that key foot characters like the fey are now all easier to goon.

    Or you know wait and see it’s all speculation at this point.
    How is she easier to goon in a blob tho? From what I understand the changes make it harder to get to her inside the blob and harder to get away from her blob.
    Well yes it’s possible sitting inside of a halbard unit is safer than before from monsters - we’ll have to see how much safer. But that generally isn’t the issue, you can kill the halbards first.

    But when it’s her trio of heroes that’s more typically the real issue you can now select one of them and focus them down better, which is the key to killing a trio. The fey or a paladin falling over it away has generally helped them by making it harder to kill any one of them quickly.
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