Minimum range for Spells was in the right direction

another505 · November 2020

Whoever designed casting range having minimum range had amazing foresight or just plain luck.

Giving spells no minimum range gives casters an amazing jail free card . Aoe spells dont punish single entity and only hurt multi units making casters a permanent bait.

They should be punished if they are left alone, so they need to be protected or kept at a distance.

CA, if you want these aoe spells to be useful. Make bombardment spells casting time faster by a second since they have to fall from the sky.
Vortex spells need to be cheaper WOM or better control.

This would also help against corner camping, box or forest box. Its one rock two birds.

For SP, just get another caster and drop it ontop of your surrounded caster

Totentanz777 · November 2020

Yea this is gonna be an absolute game changer. The new meta will probably be run into combat and get people blobbed on you then cast a huge AOE spell on top of yourself and deal massive damage. I'm not sure that scrapping the minimum range is a good idea but I'll want to test it out a bit before coming to any conclusions.

eumaies · November 2020

Totentanz777 said:
Yea this is gonna be an absolute game changer. The new meta will probably be run into combat and get people blobbed on you then cast a huge AOE spell on top of yourself and deal massive damage. I'm not sure that scrapping the minimum range is a good idea but I'll want to test it out a bit before coming to any conclusions.

but that's already the meta, it's hardly a change at all. The only difference is right now you send in some other "bait" and cast your spell, vs going forward you can choose to use your mage as 'bait'. It's nice, but it's hardly a big deal.

Totentanz777 · November 2020

eumaies said:

but that's already the meta, it's hardly a change at all. The only difference is right now you send in some other "bait" and cast your spell, vs going forward you can choose to use your mage as 'bait'. It's nice, but it's hardly a big deal.

I guess it was to an extent, but for units like slann, Orion, etc. you are gonna be punished super heavily for sending units like spears to surround them. I guess you could already do that but just use some other unit to gather everyone around but I think certain characters will really benefit from this.

another505 · November 2020

eumaies said:

Totentanz777 said:
Yea this is gonna be an absolute game changer. The new meta will probably be run into combat and get people blobbed on you then cast a huge AOE spell on top of yourself and deal massive damage. I'm not sure that scrapping the minimum range is a good idea but I'll want to test it out a bit before coming to any conclusions.
but that's already the meta, it's hardly a change at all. The only difference is right now you send in some other "bait" and cast your spell, vs going forward you can choose to use your mage as 'bait'. It's nice, but it's hardly a big deal.

The big change is that its also a jail free card for casters to get away from trouble

It happens in a certain extent but this is just making it worse

ShiroAmakusa75 · November 2020

Just make spells more effective against SEs. That would also fix the current exploit it allows or at least make it more costly if you had to actually sacrifice a unit for it to work.

Green0 · November 2020

yep agreed, bad change as well. You can now cast Tempest or Pit of Shades while in melee.

Theo91 · November 2020

Does this change make hybrid caster lords very strong?

Because infantry and cav is no longer effective for sniping casters so you need to use characters more but casters like malekith can fight back

Sarmatianns · November 2020

Yes, not sure I like this change...

Rheingold · November 2020

Bear in mind the knockdown changes for footlords/heros and infantry. A caster can get deleted very quickly now if surrounded. Presumably these changes will impact all caster, mounted or not and make them far more vulnerable.
This change might have been neccessary.

Sarmatianns · November 2020

Well, that's not going to affect Mazdamundi on Zlaaq much, or Teclis on Parrot, or Durthu, or Kroak or... you get the gist.

Keep in mind that changes are only for characters on foot. Caster on a horse if caught were easy to kill even before. It is not a good change, at least on paper.

We will see how it plays out.

eumaies · November 2020

Sarmatianns said:
Well, that's not going to affect Mazdamundi on Zlaaq much, or Teclis on Parrot, or Durthu, or Kroak or... you get the gist.

Keep in mind that changes are only for characters on foot. Caster on a horse if caught were easy to kill even before. It is not a good change, at least on paper.

We will see how it plays out.

it feels alot though like the kind of thing where if it had always been this way no one would bat an eye. Durthu already has an AOE on himself for example... it's a potent option but people adapt and he was generally always able to use flocks of doom at range on whatever good blob presented itself. In other words avoiding blobbing anywhere within 150m of a mage has always been a good idea, now that just happens to include around the mage as well.

another505 · November 2020

Sword of daith is powerful indeed, but its now making the problem worse with any vanilla caster with a powerful aoe spell can do it.

saweendra · November 2020

Sarmatianns said:
Well, that's not going to affect Mazdamundi on Zlaaq much, or Teclis on Parrot, or Durthu, or Kroak or... you get the gist.

Keep in mind that changes are only for characters on foot. Caster on a horse if caught were easy to kill even before. It is not a good change, at least on paper.

We will see how it plays out.

Not really lets say you managed to surround mazda on zalaaq with questing knight ror. Then mazda just put a bound banishment on top of him self bye bye qk ror.

Pocman · November 2020

Although I agree this is a bad step, it will really change very little.

- AoE direct damage spells like Sword of Daith or soulstealer are not affected at all.

- Wind and breath spells are not affected at all. They were already able to punish a blob while the caster was in it.

- Vortex and bombardment spells were rarely taken. So this will benefitt at least the least used spells.

eumaies · November 2020

Pocman said:
Although I agree this is a bad step, it will really change very little.

- AoE direct damage spells like Sword of Daith or soulstealer are not affected at all.

- Wind and breath spells are not affected at all. They were already able to punish a blob while the caster was in it.

- Vortex and bombardment spells were rarely taken. So this will benefitt at least the least used spells.

Very well said. This was already a “thing”.

Bastilean · November 2020

Foot wizard took a big hit when they removed much of the stagger safety.

another505 · November 2020

Bastilean said:
Foot wizard took a big hit when they removed much of the stagger safety.

it was kinda stupid that sometimes, my carnosaur can take forever to kill a foot mage, but sometimes almost instantly because of how stagger works.

Amonkhet · November 2020

Well on the plus side, this will help mage LLs who got nuked by these changes.

glosskilos · November 2020

Bastilean said:
Foot wizard took a big hit when they removed much of the stagger safety.

This nerfs lizardmen skink priests the most because they have to either be on foot or the expensive terradon mount

CA_Duck · November 2020

The main motivation behind the change was to make targeted spells more user-friendly to use. It wasn't exactly intuitive which spells had a minimum range and there was no visualisation of what the minimum range is. Now the targeting logic for spells should generally be more consistent and easier to use.

DaBoyzAreBackInTown · November 2020

Good usability change, dropping banishments etc on your head is going to be a risk but the solution there imo should be that vortexes should be doing more damage to Single entities/low model count units instead. If dropping a banishment on your own head did 2-3k damage, people would stop doing it pretty quick (or only doing it when desperate).

This would be a good change for campaign as well where currently a well-known tactic is to basically send out a juiced lord or hero, cause a big blob, then vortex it.

another505 · November 2020

CA_Duck said:
The main motivation behind the change was to make targeted spells more user-friendly to use. It wasn't exactly intuitive which spells had a minimum range and there was no visualisation of what the minimum range is. Now the targeting logic for spells should generally be more consistent and easier to use.

I see. That would be good if single entities receive more dmg to aoe abilities. Currently, its really one sided to mulit entity. It doesnt need to be a powerful counter to hurt them, but makes you have to double think before you drop it on yourself or running through it

I also still hope vortex and bombardment spells improve. This would certainly help against box
Their consistency is a huge problem leading direct targetted spell used so much more

Xerxes52 · November 2020

CA_Duck said:
The main motivation behind the change was to make targeted spells more user-friendly to use. It wasn't exactly intuitive which spells had a minimum range and there was no visualisation of what the minimum range is. Now the targeting logic for spells should generally be more consistent and easier to use.

Thank you. This is definitely an improvement in my opinion.

saweendra · November 2020

CA_Duck said:
The main motivation behind the change was to make targeted spells more user-friendly to use. It wasn't exactly intuitive which spells had a minimum range and there was no visualisation of what the minimum range is. Now the targeting logic for spells should generally be more consistent and easier to use.

Could perhaps change the amount of damage single entities take,

yst · November 2020

Yep now they can finally tweak the spells. The design changes been nothing short of super amazing.

Monsters needs to be taking 2000-3000 dmg getting slammed by a comet, when taking a nice firestorm bath, laughing at getting hit by lightning bolts, have their souls getting devoured by pit of shades etc

Tbh dont even mind 4000 dmg getting headshot by comet.

Havent seem purple sun for years, its time for a come back

y4g3r · November 2020

Shouldn't be a problem, just send a hero to kill the caster instead of a unit. Properly challenge them. No extra vortex damage to a SE after all.

Pocman · November 2020

I am okay with Vortexes being anti infantry/cavalry, but it would be nice to have an anti SEM especific tool. Bombardments are the ideal candidate, as they are already useless and difficult to use

Disposable Hero · November 2020

Pocman said:
I am okay with Vortexes being anti infantry/cavalry, but it would be nice to have an anti SEM especific tool. Bombardments are the ideal candidate, as they are already useless and difficult to use

Yes me too, I am not keen on good vs everything spells. Bombardments and magic missiles are designed for this role, just tweak these. There are many spells with too long windups. Someone said the 1, 3, 5 sec cast time was hard coded, I really hope that is not so....

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Minimum range for Spells was in the right direction

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