On Maps and Game 3 - Many Images

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

I ask you all to approach this from a logical perspective, with the following 'past predicts the future' arguments.

1. The game was intended to be a representation of the factions with 8th Edition Army Books.
2. The map was SHRUNK catastrophically from Vortex, to Mortal Empires.
3. Content with lore, art, and MODELS GW STILL SELLS will be the source of priority given the above.

Just keep those thoughts in the back of your mind as you review the following maps.

First, the current (as of this next DLC) Vortex.

Note the island chains along the Western edge of the Map. Note the complete continents of Lustria and Southlands. Note the Elven Outposts for our HE addicted brothers.

Now compare, to ME.

WHOA WHOA WHOA. We lost, the entire West Coast. Half of Lustria. Half of the Southlands. Islands for the Elven Outposts!

I'm not going to count the settlements lost, but that is IMMEDIETLY a meaningful lost of land mass just going from Vortex, to ME.

Lets begin our review with the following further assumptions.

1. Warriors of Chaos, and the land mass to support them, should be in the game.
2. The Game will center on the Dark Lands, Mountains of Mourn, and the area's immediately North, South, and to the WEST.
3. The factions will be Kislev, Dogs of War, Ogres, Chaos Dwarves, and Daemons of Chaos.

Lets look at the most obviously inclusion of additional land mass. The Chaos Wastes.

Look at all those settlements up there. Look at all those Fortresses. Not only that, but look at this.

Those fortresses and regions? A FRACTION OF THE CHAOS WASTES. That is a meaningfully large land mass, that is absolutely missing from the game, and WILL come in Game 3.

Lets look at the Mountains of Mourn.

You see Flayed Rock? Thats the current Eshin start! Look at all that land, look at all those regions. Look at ALL that area to the North. Heck, look at how large the Haunted Forest is! Can you say 'WE Start for Game 3'? Can you say 'Beastmen Start for Game 3?'

Fascinating stuff, and that is ignoring the West of this map which is of course, the Chaos Dwarves of the Dark Lands, and multiple other factions.

The Western portion of the Dark Lands? Well thats on the Orc and Dwarven Maps.

Orcs more closely resembles the region we have right now.

We already are missing many of these factions on the map. There are countless settlements that SHOULD ALREADY EXIST but because the map is shrunk, we dont have them!

Imagine if Wood Elves, fought Beastmen, fought Forest Goblins in multiple theatres around the world?!?

Speaking of Wood Elves for a moment, imagine if we actually got the real Wood Elf Map?!

Imagine that. A real, full implementation of the Map. We already have it in the mini Campaign!

Speaking of, we already mentioned the last land of the Western Coast and Lustria/Southlands.

High Elf fans, I know your out there, looking for your lost Outposts.

4 Elf Settlements, LOST, because the map was shrunk.

Dwarven friends, do you know we are missing TWO settlements to the North, with Western settlements to come?

Thats 3 potential Start Positions, currently unused and wasted, in unique locations!

For completeness, look at what we SHOULD have, for the New World.

And that is to say nothing about the Southlands, the fact Araby was cut, and the potential for a Nagash theme.

So you know what I want?

I want a full and proper implementation of all these regions.

Give us the proper New World. (Lost in translation to ME)
Give us the Chaos Wastes. (Warriors of Chaos, Daemons for Game 3)
Give us the Northern Steppes. (Norsca, and Hobgoblins)
Give us the Dark Lands. (Practically EVERYONE)
Give us the Mountains of Mourn (Dwarf, Orc, Ogres)
Give us the Eastern portion of the Southlands (TK, Nagash, VC)
Give us the Elven Outposts and Islands back (HE/DE Starts)
Give us the Full Athel Loren!

You honestly want to tell me thats not enough Map updates to warrant Game 3? Honestly?

That will be your Game 3. Right there.

Thanks for reading.

Djau#5149 · November 2020

No way you could get all of that in one map and with detail...

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

Amonkhet said:
No way you could get all of that in one map and with detail...

No? Then I dont want to hear another **** WORD about some Fan Fiction Far East.

Because if we cant get that, why should we want 3 Stand in Empire factions ruining the beauty that is the detailed Old and New World.

veresh1989 · November 2020

If you take the full map of Athel Loren from the first game, the map will be unrealistically large. There are probably 100 moves you will need to go from one end to the other.

But they also cut too much.

Bring back the elven colonies!!

ERICdbs#2077 · November 2020

We know that full continents from game 2 are a very likely thing based on CA's messages, so at least that's that. This makes me assume that we will get the same treatment for the east as well, as it would be like making the same mistake twice in a row.

Of course more detail would be nice, but it wouldn't be feasible from a tech point for most of the playerbase. ME already has lots of settlements so it's a fine simplification.

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

veresh1989 said:
If you take the full map of Athel Loren from the first game, the map will be unrealistically large. There are probably 100 moves you will need to go from one end to the other.

But they also cut too much.

Bring back the elven colonies!!

They can manipulate the time it takes to travel across zones, we see it literally everywhere right now in ME.

I am absolutely POSITIVE they could put in a better implementation of Athel Loren.

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

ERICdbs said:
We know that full continents from game 2 are a very likely thing based on CA's messages, so at least that's that. This makes me assume that we will get the same treatment for the east as well, as it would be like making the same mistake twice in a row.

Of course more detail would be nice, but it wouldn't be feasible from a tech point for most of the playerbase. ME already has lots of settlements so it's a fine simplification.

Very well.

I want this repeated in every thread where Far East is mentioned.

The concept of giving up real content for the Far East is factually offensive.

GuTaiYP · November 2020

Amonkhet said:
No way you could get all of that in one map and with detail...

.. unless CA finds a way to optimize the game dramatically better.

Orontes#2247 · November 2020

Surge_2 said:

ERICdbs said:
We know that full continents from game 2 are a very likely thing based on CA's messages, so at least that's that. This makes me assume that we will get the same treatment for the east as well, as it would be like making the same mistake twice in a row.

Of course more detail would be nice, but it wouldn't be feasible from a tech point for most of the playerbase. ME already has lots of settlements so it's a fine simplification.
Very well.

I want this repeated in every thread where Far East is mentioned.

The concept of giving up real content for the Far East is factually offensive.

How can something be factually offensive?

WaaaghCheif#7753 · November 2020

GuTaiYP said:

Amonkhet said:
No way you could get all of that in one map and with detail...
.. unless CA finds a way to optimize the game dramatically better.

CA Pre-Mortal Empires "Yeah long turn times are inevitable, price of admission, just the way it is.

CA Potion of Speed Update "Hey guys we've massively improved the End Turn optimization, looks like all it needed was some code TLC hehe"

Clearly, where's there's a will there's a way.

veresh1989 · November 2020

Surge_2 said:

veresh1989 said:
If you take the full map of Athel Loren from the first game, the map will be unrealistically large. There are probably 100 moves you will need to go from one end to the other.

But they also cut too much.

Bring back the elven colonies!!
They can manipulate the time it takes to travel across zones, we see it literally everywhere right now in ME.

I am absolutely POSITIVE they could put in a better implementation of Athel Loren.

On the full map of course it is much more pleasant to play

#324448 · November 2020

100% agree. These issues are, in my opinion, an absolute priority for future map expansions.

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

Orontes said:

Surge_2 said:

ERICdbs said:
We know that full continents from game 2 are a very likely thing based on CA's messages, so at least that's that. This makes me assume that we will get the same treatment for the east as well, as it would be like making the same mistake twice in a row.

Of course more detail would be nice, but it wouldn't be feasible from a tech point for most of the playerbase. ME already has lots of settlements so it's a fine simplification.
Very well.

I want this repeated in every thread where Far East is mentioned.

The concept of giving up real content for the Far East is factually offensive.
How can something be factually offensive?

Because, I am actually offended at the suggestion to implement the Far East, at the expense of the rest of the world. :

#324448 · November 2020

While the mini-campaign map of Athel Loren is likely unfeasible, I do think CA could squeeze in 1-2 more realms in ME. I'd love to see Cythrai, very pretty.

I'd also like to see more provinces in Bretonnia and the Southern Realms.

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

Giveaway412 said:
While the mini-campaign map of Athel Loren is likely unfeasible, I do think CA could squeeze in 1-2 more realms in ME. I'd love to see Cythrai, very pretty.

I'd also like to see more provinces in Bretonnia and the Southern Realms.

Yep. My hope is that Game 3 returns the focus to the Old World, but mostly with a correct level of respect for the central relevancy of CHAOS in the world.

You can only do that, by having the 'mini map' of Game 3 go all the way North, East to the Mountains of Mourn, and West to capture a meaningful portion of not only the Empire, but the Border Princes and the Southern Empires.

What does that allow?

Dogs of War/Tilea/Estalia!

That is your perfect 'mini game' for Game 3, and allows us to retain focus on the parts of the world that are relevant and matter.

You then go ahead and complete the updates I outlined, and we have a perfect representation of the world that matters.

Laindesh · November 2020

Ill be honest, having so much of a wasteland sounds boring, i already dislike norsca XD

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

Laindesh said:
Ill be honest, having so much of a wasteland sounds boring, i already dislike norsca XD

Well thats certainly an opinion. I absolutely want to puke and quit any campaign that has to fight through Lustria, but some people are all about that jungle life.

Wood_Sprite#1284 · November 2020

I think there's a counter to this point.

What would sell better? Detailed map with current factions, or ME-level map with lots of new factions?
What would the majority of the players want?

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

Considering CA is aware of the dissatisfaction with the lost territory, to the point of commenting on it, I'm going to guess they know people care about the map.

'Lots of New Factions' is going to happen anyway in my model, would you like a list?

Orontes#2247 · November 2020

Surge_2 said:

Orontes said:

Surge_2 said:

ERICdbs said:
We know that full continents from game 2 are a very likely thing based on CA's messages, so at least that's that. This makes me assume that we will get the same treatment for the east as well, as it would be like making the same mistake twice in a row.

Of course more detail would be nice, but it wouldn't be feasible from a tech point for most of the playerbase. ME already has lots of settlements so it's a fine simplification.
Very well.

I want this repeated in every thread where Far East is mentioned.

The concept of giving up real content for the Far East is factually offensive.
How can something be factually offensive?

Because, I am actually offended at the suggestion to implement the Far East, at the expense of the rest of the world. :

Your offense, is by definition subjective. The statement was: "The concept of giving up real content for the Far East is factually offensive." The claim is the very concept itself is factually offensive.

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

It is. It offends me, factually. lol

As to the faction list we have at least the following for Game 3.

Kislev
Dogs of War / Southern Empires / Border Princes
Chaos Dwarves
Ogres
Daemons of Chaos

We then have a multitude of options that expand upon the factions we already have, or will have.

Warriors of Chaos will be redone with actual mechanics.
Mono God Chaos Lists will be LP/Race Packs as DLC.
Nagash List.
Neferata (if we dont get it early).
Hobgoblins will be an option for the Northern Steppes.
Cult of Slaanesh.

Orcs, and Forest Goblins will have new Start Positions I outlined.
Dwarves have new Start Positions I outlined.
High Elves will have new Start Positions I outlined.
Dark Elves will have new Start Positions in either an HE Outpost, or the Chaos Wastes (look up Northern Naggarond!)
Wood Elves will have new Start Positions I outlined.
Beastmen will have new Start Positions I outlined.
Empire and Brets will have options within the Southern Dark Lands, through the trade routes.

And it goes on and on.

Honestly, the amount of depth available from an actually realized map of the New World, Old World, Dark Lands and Chaos Wastes would be the absolute ideal solution for the majority of players.

This is content that is real, has history, and relevance.

For the rest, they can go play Three Kingdoms.

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

Oh and by the way, you know what Pirates like? Islands to hide on.

You know we had some islands? Add them back, and look at that, a Vampire Coast new Start Position.

Seriously folks.

If you want maximum depth, while retaining even a shred of realistic potential, this is it.

SteelRonin#4832 · November 2020

What is the current limitation for having an expanded ME map?, Was it the turn time? because now it is improved and turns time last 10 seconds...

More Chaos waste?, Norsca is already a pain in the a** because it has chaos wasteland climate and it should be Frozen with a 3 chaos populace to increase the corruption. Being frozen, Karak Kadrin can take it, Clan Rictus can take it, the next playable Clan Moulder can take it, and if the make Kislev playable, they can take it too....we are losing a lot of gameplay. Norsca faction should be reworked along side the entire Norsca region.

That portion of the map is huge for the poor gameplay it provides.....at last give us more Kraka Holds from Norscan Dwarfs...to capture, like Kraka Ornsmotek with a gold mine there....

They should rework Tilea, there is a portion of terrain near Border Princes that is useless...

Badlands can still be reworked a little

The Karak Ungor Mountain can still be reworked. I saw they are going to add Karak Vlag, but its position is weird, we also need Karag Dum.

The portion of ME map added in the lastest patches, like the starting location for Clan Eshin and Imrik......there is a lot of space there, and they added like 3 territories there...

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

We dont know the actual limitations, but looking at 'past predicts the future' the Vortex Map was utterly GUTTED like a fish.

Take that for what you will.

IamNotArobot#8850 · November 2020

I would get what you say AND expand east to get Cathay and Khuresh.

I wan't best of both worlds and nobody can take it from me except CA.

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

IamNotArobot said:
I would get what you say AND expand east to get Cathay and Khuresh.

I wan't best of both worlds and nobody can take it from me except CA.

Right but one of these is within the realm of reality.

DeadpoolSW#7283 · November 2020

Yes the east is "fan fiction" but is this game not the perfect opportunity to explore this area, with the full backing of GW, who for no effort on their part, get a whole bunch of potential models for TT for something they probably wanted to do at some point anyway

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

DeadpoolSW said:
Yes the east is "fan fiction" but is this game not the perfect opportunity to explore this area, with the full backing of GW, who for no effort on their part, get a whole bunch of potential models for TT for something they probably wanted to do at some point anyway

No. Not when there are development costs and resourcing constraint that would harm the rest of the map/factions.

Gamgee · November 2020

Surge_2 said:

DeadpoolSW said:
Yes the east is "fan fiction" but is this game not the perfect opportunity to explore this area, with the full backing of GW, who for no effort on their part, get a whole bunch of potential models for TT for something they probably wanted to do at some point anyway
No. Not when there are development costs and resourcing constraint that would harm the rest of the map/factions.

Ah so your being the greedy kid on the block now I get why your outraged your being made to share equally.

Surge_2#1464 · November 2020

Gamgee said:

Surge_2 said:

DeadpoolSW said:
Yes the east is "fan fiction" but is this game not the perfect opportunity to explore this area, with the full backing of GW, who for no effort on their part, get a whole bunch of potential models for TT for something they probably wanted to do at some point anyway
No. Not when there are development costs and resourcing constraint that would harm the rest of the map/factions.
Ah so your being the greedy kid on the block now I get why your outraged your being made to share equally.

Not at all. I'm looking at from a holistic perspective. The whole game, all factions and their realms.

You want a single faction, at the cost of everyone else.

It's honestly comical to see. Cathay would cost literally every other faction. Every single one, and I'm the selfish one?

I want what is best, for the most players.

It's certainly not some blank slate, empty, shallow, fan fiction, scratch built figment of lore.

Gamgee · November 2020

Surge_2 said:

Gamgee said:

Surge_2 said:

DeadpoolSW said:
Yes the east is "fan fiction" but is this game not the perfect opportunity to explore this area, with the full backing of GW, who for no effort on their part, get a whole bunch of potential models for TT for something they probably wanted to do at some point anyway
No. Not when there are development costs and resourcing constraint that would harm the rest of the map/factions.
Ah so your being the greedy kid on the block now I get why your outraged your being made to share equally.
Not at all. I'm looking at from a holistic perspective. The whole game, all factions and their realms.

You want a single faction, at the cost of everyone else.

It's honestly comical to see. Cathay would cost literally every other faction. Every single one, and I'm the selfish one?

I want what is best, for the most players.

It's certainly not some blank slate, empty, shallow, fan fiction, scratch built figment of lore.

No I want ALL factions in the game. I want old I want new I want old and completely new ones fleshed out. I want ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL factions form ALLL parts of the map. YOU want old factions only and are screeching that Cathay shouldn't be in or Far East. You being a fantasy grog think fantasy's has to be a perfect dead mausoleum of a setting never growing or expanding. I think its alive and kicking and should be getting long over due factions fleshed out and given depth for the first time ever. I still want old factions too but also as much new once as possible. I haven't once seen you make such a claim.

Factions I want in game.
All the existing ones yes even dumb dogs of war.
Arabry
Amazons
Halflings
All the far east
And Fishmen
Finally once CA is done all of that or as much of it as they can they can invent an original faction of their own to add to the setting after they prove their ultimate love of all things Warhammer.

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