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Twisted and the Twilight VS prior DLC's

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
edited November 2020 in General Discussion
Now that we know all the units and characters we're getting with this DLC, it seems appropriate to put the whole thing into context and compare the Twisted and the Twilight to the 4 DLC's that preceded it.

Here's a list of said DLC's with all the units, characters, campaign changes, reworks and major updates that came along with them (this was alot of info to research and collect so if I forgot something or got something wrong let me know):


Prophet and the Warlock (development time: 4~ months)


Legendary Characters:
LL:
Ikit Claw
Tehenhauin
Tiktaq'to

LH:
Lord Kroak

Generic Lord/heroes:
Warlock Master (new)
Red Crested Skink Chief (new)

Lizardmen Units:
Red Crested Skinks (new)
Salamander Hunting Pack (new)
Ancient Salamander (larger single entity Salamander)
Ripperdactyl Riders (New)
Engine of the Gods (technically a reskin, but new function)
Ark of Sotek (same as engine)
Feral Cold Ones (made a recruitable unit)

RoR's:
The Thunderous one (Ancient Stegadon)
Star Chaimber Guardians (Temple Guard)
Colossadon Hunters (Ripperdactyls)
Pop-Hopak Cohort (Cold One Spear Riders)
Legion of Chaqua (Saurus Spears)
The Ubral Tide (Salamander Hunting Pack)
Cohort of Sotek (Red Crested Skinks)
Pahaux Sentinels (Terradon Riders)

Skaven units:
Ratling Gunner weapons team (new)
Warplock Jezzails (new)
Doom-Flayers (new)

RoR's:
Ikit's Zzzzap-Zzzzap! (Warp Lightning cannon)
Clan Vulkn Tailslashers (Clanrats w/ Shields)
Blightscap Plaguepack (Censer Bearers)
Teeth-Breakers (Ratling Gunners)
Council Guard (Stormvermin Halbards)
Natty Buboe's Sharpshooters (warplock Jezzails)
Dwarf-thing Menace (Doom-Flayers)
Wheelz of doom (Doomwheel)

Ikit Workshop RoR's:
Warpfire's wheel (Doomwheel)
Blackhole Flayers (Doom-Flayers)
The Doombringers (Warpfire Throwers Weapons Team)
Eye Takers (warplock Jezzails)
Death Dealers (Ratling Gunners)

Total:

4 Legendary Characters
2 Generic Lord/heroes
10 Units (7 Lizardmen, 3 Skaven)
21 RoR's (8 Lizardmen, 13 Skaven)

Updates and new campaigns:

- Undercities are introduced
- Bretonnia given minor rework, adding with vows (Alberic got his trident too)
- new character item quests added for Brets.
- AI Vampire factions scripted to heavily invest in their respective bloodlines.
- 15 new island map variants.

Ikit gets one of the most extensive campaign mechanics in WH2 with his workshop, Doomrockets and unit augments. Tehenhauin gets a similar but severely downgraded mechanic.

Warhammer 2 Campaign Map Additions and Changes
Eye of the Vortex:

- Added "Coasts of the Lustrian Gulf" (new province) with 2 regions: Kaiax (existing region) and The Night Forest (new region).

- Added "Tip of Lustria" (new region) to "The Capes" (existing province).

- Fortress of Dawn was removed from "The Capes" province and became its own 1 major settlement province.

- Added The Hissing God (new region) to Culchan Plains (existing province).

- The Star Tower (existing region) moved from "The Vampire Coast" province to Volcanic Islands (new province).

- Added Fuming Serpent (new region) to Volcanic Islands (new province).

- "The Red Rivers" province in the Southlands was split into 2 provinces: "Northern Red Rivers" and "Southern Red Rivers).

- Cuexotl has been upgraded to a major settlement and added to "Northern Red Rivers" province, along with Nahuontl (existing region) and Sun-Tree Glades (new region).

- Sotek's Trail (new region) was added to Zlatlan (existing region) and The Golden Tower (existing region) in the "Southern Red Rivers" province.


New Minor Factions (Vortex):

- Leaf-Cutterz Tribe (Greenskins) Start in full control of the "Northern Red Rivers" province.

- Clan Mange (Skaven) Start in the Northern Spine of Sotek, Lustria.

- Clan Fester (Skaven) Start in control of Quetza and Chaqua in the Northern Great Jungle province. When Playing as Tehenhauin, Clan Fester are your starting enemy and have been moved next to him, in control of The Night Forest, The Dust Glade and The Golden Colossus.


Mortal Empires:

- Added Massif Orcal (new region) to Massif Orcal (new province)

- Added Kappelburg and Krugenheim (new regions) to Talabecland (existing province)

- Added Nagenhof and Mordheim (new regions) to Ostermark (existing province)

- Added "Western Jungles" (new province) to the Southlands with 2 new regions: Tlaqua (province capital) and Cuexotl.

- El-Kalabad has been moved further north (now adjacent to the Black Tower of Arkhan) to accomodate the new "Western Jungles" province in this area.

- Added Wellsprings of Eternity (new region) to Jungles of Green Mist (existing province) in Lustria.

- Added a mountain pass to the western mountain range of Spine of Sotek connecting Spine of Sotek and Huahuan Desert.


New Minor Factions (Mortal Empires):

- Clan Mange (Skaven, Lustria) Start in the Northern Spine of Sotek and Creeping Jungle provinces.

- Clan Fester (Skaven) Starts in Xahutec (Northern Great Jungle), Fuming Serpent (Volcanic Islands) and Marks of the Old Ones (Headhunter's Jungle). They're the starting enemy for Teclis, Tehenhauin and Lokhir Fellheart.



Hunter and the Beast (development time: 4.5 months)


Legendary Characters:
LL's:
Markus Wulfhart
Nakai the Wanderer
Gor-Rok

LH's:
Jorek Grimm
Rodrik l'Anguille
Hertwig Van Hal
Klara of Wydrioth

+ Gotrek and Felix (developed and revealed at the same time as this DLC, only released a little later to coincide with WD)

Generic Lords/heroes:
Ancient Kroxigor (new)
Huntsman General (new)

Empire units:
Archers (new-ish)
Huntsman (new)
War Wagon (new)
War Wagon Mortar (kitbash of Wagon and mortar)
Gyrocopters (Wulfhart exclusive)

RoR's:
Deathjacks (archers)
White Wolves (huntsman)
War Wagon Hellblaster Volley Gun.

Elector Count State Troops:
Carronburg Greatswords
Swords of Ulric (swordsmen)
Nordland Mariners (Halberdiers)
Stubborn Bulls (Empire knights w/ Greatswords)
Sootson's Guns (Mortars)
Stir River Patrol (Crossbowmen)
Noble Sons Abroad (Pistoleers)
The Emperors Wrath (Ulric Steamtank)
Gunderson's Surefires (Handgunners. Although they're Hochland Longrifles in the Lore)
Kights of the Everlasting light (Empire Knights)
Eldred's Guard (Spearmen)
The Bordermen (Outriders Grenade Launchers)
Knights of Morr (Empire Knights)

Lizardmen units:
Feral Dread Saurian (new)
Dread Saurian with Howdah
Sacred Kroxigors (new-ish)
Razordon Hunting Pack (reskin of Salamanders)

RoR's:
Shredder of Lustria (Dread Saurian howdah)
Cohort of Huatl (sacred Kroxigors)
Amaxon Barbs (Razordons)

Total:
8 Legendary Characters
2 generic Lord/heroes
22 units (18 Empire, 4 Lizardmen units)
6 RoR's

Updates and New Campaigns:
- Huge Empire rework
- New Fort Settlements
- Imperial Authority, prestige and political events + Machinations like HE's have.
- Fealty and elector counts offices with Runefangs
- Imperial factions can now return territory to each other
- Slann rework with proper Lores of magic and different generations.
- Multiplayer unit caps.

Wulfhart's campaign could have done with a few extra things (don't let him recruit units via buildings for example) but despite its flaws, it was one of the best campaigns added to WH2. Nakai's campaign is very unique but wasn't able to fix the issues with hordes and thus suffers from alot of the same issues as them (Nakai's campaign is essentially broken until further notice, Dead on arrival).


Warhammer 2 Campaign Map Additions and Changes

Mortal Empires:

- Added Konquata and Citadel of Lead (new regions) to Albion (existing province)

- The Misty Hills (new province) added to the Northern Empire and contains 2 new regions: Black Pit (province capital) and Wreckers point.

- Added Middenstag (new region) to Middenland (existing province)

- Pfieldorf was removed from Wissenland province and added to the new Solland province.

- Added Dotternbach (new region) to Wissenland (existing province)

- Added Steingart (new region) to Solland (new province)

- Added Niedling and Flensburg (new regions) to Stirland (existing province)

- Added Fort Bergbres (new Empire Border Fort region) to Gisoreux Gap (new province)

- Added Fort Soll (new Empire Border Fort region) to Winter's Teeth Pass (new province)

- The Moot was removed from Stirland Province and made its own minor settlement province (named Mootland).

- Laurelorn Forest was added as a new 1 settlement province and all the relevant Landmark buildings from Salzenmund were relocated there.


Shadow and the Blade (development time: 3 months)


Legendary Characters:
Malus Darkblade
Deathmaster Snikch

Generic Lords/heroes:
Beastmasters (new)
Master (Kitbash)
Master assassin (reskin)
Eshin Sorcerer (new)

Dark Elf units:
Scourgerunner Chariots (New)
Bloodwrack Madusae (new)
Bloodwrack Shrine (reuse of assets in this DLC and DLC's prior)

RoR's:
The Siren of Red Ruin (Bloodwrach medusa)
Ravagers of Rakarth (Scourgerunner chariot)
The Crows of khaine (Harpies)

Skaven Units:
Eshin Triads (new)
Poisoned-Wind Mortar (new)
Warp-Grinder Weapon Teams (new)

RoR's:
The Avalanche Mortar (Death Globe Mortars)
Viskrin's Death Squad (Death Runners)
Ishka's Triads (Eshin Triads)

Total:

2 Legendary Characters
4 Generic Lord/heroes
3 Dark Elf 3 Skaven)
6 RoR's

Update and new campaigns:
- End Turn Times were absolutely obliterated
- Major factions renamed
- Clan Pestilens minor update
- many other QoL and minor changes

Snikch got a very extensive scheme mechanic which allowed him to manipulate factions across the map, steal and even blow up other settlements or factions, plus he can do contracts for other Skaven Clans. Malus basically has to participate in the vortex and balance Tzarkan. The dual start was great, but his campaign was very bare bones overall.

Warhammer 2 Campaign Map Additions and Changes

Mortal Empires:

- Renamed the province "Desolation of Nagash" to "Southern World's Edge Mountains".

- Added Dragon Isles (new province) to The Sea of Dread, south of The Dark Lands, with 3 regions: Dread Rock (province capital), Dragon Fang mount and Shattered Stone Isle.

- Added The Wolf Lands (new province) to the Dark Lands with 3 regions: Crookback Mountain (province capital), Mount Greyhag and Mount Silverspear.

- Added Gnoblar Country (new province) to The Dark Lands with 3 regions: Flayed Rock (province capital), Haunted Forest and Pigbarter.

- Added Broken Teeth (new province) east of the "Southern World's Edge Mountains", with 2 regions: Nagashizzar (province capital) and Desolation of Nagash.



Warden and the Paunch (development time: 5 months)


Legendary Characters:
Eltharion the Grim
Grom the Paunch
Imrik of Caledor

Generic Lord/Heroes:
Archmage (Lord)
Giant River Hag Troll (Hero)
Goblin Great Shaman w/ Arachnarok Mount
Black Orc Big Boss (hero)

High Elf units
Rangers (kitbash)
Silverin Guard
War Lions of Chrace (slight reuse of prior assets but more new than old)
Lion Chariot of Chrace (same as above)
Arcane Phoenix (reskin)

Campaign Exclusive units (all of which are some kind of reskin or reuse of existing stuff):
The Skyhawks
Sentinels of Astaril
Spire Guard of Tor Yvresse
Athel Tamarha Faithbearers
Knights of Tor Gaval
Imrik's 5 dragons

RoR's:
Talons of Tor Caleda (Caledor Archers)
Rahagra's Pride (War Lions)
Omen of Asuryan (Arcane Phoenix)

Greenskin units
Snotling Pump Wagons
Snotling Pump Wagons (Flappas)
Snotling Pump Wagons (Spiky Rollers)
River Trolls (new)
Stone Trolls (Kitbash)
Rogue Idol (new)
Fire Arachnarok (reskin)
Fire Spider riders (reskin)
Hydra (reuse of existing unit)
Feral Wyvern (re-used model)
explosive squigs (new as a unit)
armoured squig riders (new)
Spider hatchlings (new as a unit)

RoR's:
Logey Bogey's Spore 'Sploda's (Snotling Pump Wagon)
Da Swamp Fings (River Trolls)
Da Big 'Un (Rogue Idol)

Total:

3 legendary characters
4 generic lord/heroes
6 RoR's (all of which were based on the new units)
28 units (15 high elf units, 13 Greenskin units)

Also, remember they had planned to add Blacktoof, a Black Orc Warboss and a few other things but ran out of time/money/covid messed up their schedule, so it was going to be even bigger.

Updates and new campaigns:
- Greenskin Waaagh rework (in campaign and battles)
- new GS trophy mechanic
- Reputation added to Greenskins
- GS reworked Tech Tree and Skill Trees/LL's/Unique items and abilities
- New GS Scrap mechanic
- Woodsmen and strider reworked to allow units and characters to walk through trees
- High Elf influence rebalance


HE's got Athel tamara (good, but doesn't last long), Grom gets an awesome cooking mechanic. Grom can mess around all campaign and have a good time, but Ehtarion's campaign (especially in vortex) is fundamentally flawed due to how it works; there's no real stakes, rush and because sieges haven't been reworked yet, Tor Yvresse's unique map is a quest battle only.


Warhammer 2 Map additions and changes
- Added "The Marshes of Madness" (new province) to the Badlands with 2 new regions: Morgheim (province capital) and Floating village.

- Added "Shrine of Loec" and "Tralinia" (new regions) to Yvresse (existing province)

- Added Shattered Cove (new region) to Gnoblar Country (existing province)

- Added Karak Raziak (new region) to Northern World's Edge Mountains (existing province)

- Added Khazid Irkulaz (existing region) to Peak Pass (existing province)

Name Changes
- Okenhammer in Zhufbar province has been renamed to "Cragmere".

- Grimhold in the Southern Grey Mountains province has been renamed to "Fester Spike".

New Major Factions:
- DLC: Yvresse (High Elves) led by Eltharion the Grim has a dual start in Tor Yvresse (Ulthuan) and Gronti Mingol (Southern Badlands. If you aren't playing as the faction, they only start in Yvresse, but their AI is programmed to invade the Badlands.

- DLC: Grom the Paunch (Greenskins) starts in Massif Orcal when playing as him. If you're playing as Eltharion, he replaces the "Skull Crag" minor faction in Blightwater province. If you aren't playing as either, he starts in control of all the minor settlements of Yvresse.

- FLC: Knights of Caledor (High Elves) led by Imrik of Caledor added to Fortress of Vorag in the Plain of Bones province

- WAAAGH! Update: the Bonerattlerz (Greenskins) led by Azhag the Slaughterer moved to Red Eye Mountain and made a fully fledged faction of his own.

New minor factions:
- Clan Ferrik (Skaven) start in control of Cragmere and Karag Dromar in the Zhufbar province.

- Clan Spittel (Skaven) start in control of Fester Spike in the Southern Grey Mountains.

- Clan Kreepus (Skaven) starts in control of Mordheim in the Ostermark province.

- Clan Volkn (Skaven) Starts in control of Valaya's Sorrow, Crooked Fang Fort and Dringorackaz in the Eastern Badlands province.

- Skull Crag (Greenskins) Starts in control of the Misty Mountain, Kradtommen and Deff Gorge minor settlements in the Blightwater province.

- Clan Helhein (Dwarfs) start in control of Mount Greyhag, Ash Ridge Mountains and Darkhold in the Wolf Lands and Plain of Bones provinces.

New Landmarks:
Darkhold – Graves of the Dragons
Eringrad – Chaos Troll Lair
Ka Sabar – City of Bronze
Fortress of Vorag – Tower of the Bloodytooth
Marshes of Madness – Lost Necropolis of Mourkain
Massif Orcal – Stone Troll Quarry
Mount Arachnos – Lair of the Broodmother

Notes:
- Karak Eight Peaks is now a ten-slot settlement.
- Dragon Isles: Dread Rock, Shattered Stone Isle, and Dragon Fang Mount are all now port settlements.
- Much of the territory previously belonging to the Red Fangs and Karak Azul has been distributed to new factions (Skull Crag and Clan Volkun).
- The Strygos Empire has relocated to the new Marshes of Madness province. Its former holdings in Zandri are now occupied by the Top Knotz. In addition, The Master Necromancer leading the faction has been renamed "Kadon".
- Karak Azgal has been burned to the ground by the great dragon, Graug the Terrible, and now starts the campaign abandoned.



Twisted and the Twilight (7 months development)


Legendary Characters:
LL:
Sisters of Twilight (or, their mounts I guess...)
Throt the Unclean
Drycha

LH:
Ariel
Ghorich
Coadill (re-colour)

Generic Lords/Heores:
Packmaster hero (new)
Chieftain (TBC)
Glade Captain (Sister of the Thorn kitbash)
Spellweaver lord (kitbash)

Wood Elf Units:
Glade Riders w/ spears (glade guard on horses)
Zoats (Dragon Ogre reskin, with their rig and 2/3 new animations)
Great Stag Knights (reskin and upscaled size)
Bladesingers (reskin)

Drycha units:
Giant Wolves (Canines still have that horrible Norscan Ice Wolves model from WH1. This unit is something we've seen modders do for years, even before CA allowed them to add new files)

Giant Spiders (cool, please add to Greenskins)
Cave Bats (living fell bats)
Feral Manticore (same as with other factions)
Feral Hawks (Hawk riders without the elves)

RoR's:
Wraiths of the Frozen heart (dryads)
Lost Sylvan knights (great Stag knights)
Enigmas of Ghyran (Zoats)

Skaven Units:
Broodhorrors (new)
Mutated Rat Ogres (reskin single entity Rat Ogre)
Wolf Rats (new-ish)

RoR's:
Pit fighters of hells deep (rat Ogres)
Morskittar's hellion (mutant rat ogres)
the Thing Thing (hell pit abomination)

Total:

5 legendary characters + Coadill
4 generic lords/heroes
6 RoR's (only 3 of them are even of the new units!)
13 new units (10 Wood Elf, 3 Skaven)
6 RoR's

Updates and new campaign mechanics:
- Footlords knockdown reduced
- we can now Abandon settlements
- all ranged and magic projectiles now get a 1.2 grace period in forests where they will pass through trees.

Throt gets a crazy Fleshlab similar to Ikit's workshop. The Sisters get a Grombrindal style dilemma text adventure mechanic (Sotek says its better than it looks) Wood Elves get an economy nerf, a forest heal system, a reworked tech tree, teleportation to other forests and that's about it.

No weaves, no seasons, no complex court system or divide between their peoples personality. No random events that make you go feral and attack an ally or struggling with balancing light and dark magic to expand the wood without damaging it. No undercity or new hidden base style mechanic. Still take diplomatic penalties for travelling through other peoples regions at all times.

And in terms of units and variants, basic things like units with Bark Armour, Arcane Bodkin's and other ammo types, more unit champions and End Times regiments wen't unused.


Warhammer 2 Campaign map additions and Changes

New Minor Factions:
- Broken Chainz (Greenskins)

4 new forest settlements, Throt's new Naggaroth starting settlement, 5 new settlements east of the Worlds edge mountains and that's all we know so far (also, that eastern section isn't going to be used by anyone in this DLC as far as we know, so its not really relevant like the Dark Lands or past new areas. It doesn't synergise with the content it comes with.

It should be noted Sotek mentioned he couldn't talk about all the map stuff due to an embargo. Maybe they've finally expanded the ME map south, which would be amazing, but this is what we have now.


Closing thoughts


Its important to note the Shadow and the Blade wasn't meant to be as big as the others. CA had a few extra months after September before their holidays and as they were winding down, they decided to make a little extra pack which focused more on general QoL.

This is relevant because, looking at the bigger picture, CA's DLC's have almost unanimously seen improvements upon what came before and there are very distinct periods of quality one can point to: WH1 was the worst, early WH2 was better, but still rocky, then with the Vampire Coast and Prophet & Warlock, we saw the greatest period, where things were mostly getting better.

When put in context T&T seems to be something of a lull in their general trend towards bigger and better things. Having 6 characters isn't as groundbreaking as others have suggested, and in my opinion it doesn't make up for the units being half what we saw in the last two big DLC's or the lack in QoT and Map updates (still subject to change). Characters are great and all, but Modders have been successfully supplementing the need for them for years at this point, the real meat and potatoes of the series which modders can't provide is the new units, rigs and animations, of which we saw a scant few this time outside of said characters.

T&T is still worth the price of admission at this point. However, I suspect CA may have forcefully pulled back the reigns on this one in order to keep the £7 price tag (which is why we have less this time than we saw in the past), and if that's the case, then the price tag is becoming a major issue. I know many of us would say CA are underpaid for what we get in general, but just as many people would also say we never get enough for how long we waited and the finite amount of DLC's CA can feasibly create for this series makes each half baked faction released that bit more frustrating. Clearly this price model has strained to breaking point and is generally displeasing both the audience and the company in one aspect or another.

In conclusion, I think CA and the community need to have a real talk about upping the price of their DLC and in turn the content we get for them.
Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
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Comments

  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 8,430
    i suggest 4 LL packs for $20 and just get lot more and more quality content . i know this sound bad but compared to other game dlc this doesn't seem bad at all
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Registered Users Posts: 2,116
    I respect the obvious effort here. I want to give kudos for that. I would like to go through this with a fine-toothed comb. However, I require a snack and a nap.
    Often bored, but never finished. Food, war, carousing, rabble-rousing... A gobbo's work is never done.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 5,498
    edited November 2020
    wow half the content than before... what happened? I think covid hit them hard

    I think you're missing all the malevolent units, they're reskin but still add up
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
    edited November 2020
    @lucibuis

    They aren't new units.

    Malevalent Treemen and Dryads are simply Dryads and Treemen with Drycha's new faction colour and her faction trait which gives tree spirits frenzy.

    Were High Elf Spearmen a DLC unit that came with Warden and the Paunch simply because Eltharion has his own faction colour, buffs them and replaces their martial prowess ability with Grim Discipline?

    They get kudos for making the faction colours quite pronounced, but if we were to add them to the 'Twisted and Twilight new units' list then I suppose we could add the Hellpit abomination and generic Rat Ogres as well, since Throt has a unique faction colour a new "Moulder Monster" trait and his faction effect gives them buffs/healing.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 5,498
    edited November 2020

    @lucibuis

    They aren't new units.

    Malevalent Treemen and Dryads are simply dryads and treemen with drycha's new faction colour and her unique campaign effect which gives them frenzy.

    They get kudos for making the faction colours quite pronounced, but calling them new units would be like saying the Moulder hellpit abomination and generic rat ogres are new units because throt has a unique faction colour and his faction effect gives them buffs/healing.

    they have frenzy, new colors, new names... they're super lazy reskins but still officially new units. I mean you included the 3 different types of pump wagons
  • AnonimatoAnonimato Registered Users Posts: 218

    Now that we know all the units and characters we're getting with this DLC, it seems appropriate to put the whole thing into context and compare the Twisted and the Twilight to the 4 DLC's that preceded it.

    Here's a list of said DLC's with all the units, characters, campaign changes, reworks and major updates that came along with them (this was alot of info to research and collect so if I forgot something or got something wrong let me know):


    Prophet and the Warlock (development time: 4~ months)


    Legendary Characters:
    LL:
    Ikit Claw
    Tehenhauin
    Tiktaq'to

    LH:
    Lord Kroak

    Generic Lord/heroes:
    Warlock Master (new)
    Red Crested Skink Chief (new)

    Lizardmen Units:
    Red Crested Skinks (new)
    Salamander Hunting Pack (new)
    Ancient Salamander (larger single entity Salamander)
    Ripperdactyl Riders (New)
    Engine of the Gods (technically a reskin, but new function)
    Ark of Sotek (same as engine)
    Feral Cold Ones (made a recruitable unit)

    RoR's:
    The Thunderous one (ancient Stegadon)
    Star Chaimber Guardians (Temple Guard)
    Colossadon Hunters (Ripperdactyls)
    Pop-Hopak Cohort (Cold One Spear Riders)
    Legion of Chaqua (Saurus Spears)
    The Ubral Tide (Salamander Hunting Pack)
    Cohort of Sotek (red Crested Skinks)
    Pahaux Sentinels (Terradon Riders)

    Skaven units:
    Ratling Gunner weapons team (new)
    Warplock Jezzails (new)
    Doom-Flayers (new)

    RoR's:
    Ikit's Zzzzap-Zzzzap! (warplightning cannon)
    Clan Vulkn Tailslashers (clanrats w/ Shields)
    Blightscap Plaguepack (censer bearers)
    Teeth-Breakers (Ratling gunners)
    Council Guard (Stormvermin Halbards)
    Natty Buboe's Sharpshooters (warplock jezzails)
    Dwarf-thing Menace (doom-flayers)
    Wheelz of doom (doomwheel)

    Ikit Workshop RoR's:
    Warpfire's wheel (doomwheel)
    Blackhole Flayers (doom-flayers)
    The Doombringers (warpfire Throwers Weapons Team)
    Eye Takers (warplock Jezzails)
    Death Dealers (ratling gun weapons team)

    Total:

    4 Legendary Characters
    2 Generic Lord/heroes
    10 Units(7 Lizardmen, 3 Skaven)
    21 RoR's (8 Lizardmen, 13 Skaven)

    Updates and new campaigns:

    - Undercities are introduced
    - Bretonnia given minor rework, adding with vows (Alberic got his trident too)
    - new character item quests added for Brets.
    - AI Vampire factions scripted to heavily invest in their respective bloodlines.
    - 15 new island map variants

    Ikit gets one of the most extensive campaign mechanics in WH2 with his workshop, doomrockets and unit augments. Tehenhauin gets a similar but severely downgraded mechanic.

    Warhammer 2 Campaign Map Additions and Changes
    Eye of the Vortex:

    - Added "Coasts of the Lustrian Gulf" (new province) with 2 regions: Kaiax (existing region) and The Night Forest (new region).

    - Added Tip of Lustria (new region) to The Capes (existing province)

    - Added The Hissing God (new region) to Culchan Plains (existing province)

    - Added Fortress of Dawn (existing region) to Fortress of Dawn (new province)
    The Star Tower (existing region) moved from "The Vampire Coast" province to Volcanic Islands (new province)

    - Added Fuming Serpent (new region) to Volcanic Islands (new province)
    "The Red Rivers" province in the Southlands was split into 2 provinces: "Northern Red Rivers" and "Southern Red Rivers).

    - Cuexotl has been upgraded to a major settlement and added to "Northern Red Rivers" province, along with Nahuontl (existing region) and Sun-Tree Glades (new region).

    - Sotek's Trail (new region) was added to Zlatlan (existing region) and The Golden Tower (existing region) in the "Southern Red Rivers" province.


    New Minor Factions (Vortex):

    - Leaf-Cutterz Tribe (Greenskins) Start in full control of the "Northern Red Rivers" province.

    - Clan Mange (Skaven) Start in the Northern Spine of Sotek, Lustria.

    - Clan Fester (Skaven) Start in control of Quetza and Chaqua in the Northern Great Jungle province. When Playing as Tehenhauin, Clan Fester are your starting enemy and have been moved next to him, in control of The Night Forest, The Dust Glade and The Golden Colossus.


    Mortal Empires:

    - Added Massif Orcal (new region) to Massif Orcal (new province)

    - Added Kappelburg and Krugenheim (new regions) to Talabecland (existing province)

    - Added Nagenhof and Mordheim (new regions) to Ostermark (existing province)

    - Added "Western Jungles" (new province) to the Southlands with 2 new regions: Tlaqua (province capital) and Cuexotl.

    - El-Kalabad has been moved further north (now adjacent to the Black Tower of Arkhan) to accomodate the new "Western Jungles" province in this area.

    - Added Wellsprings of Eternity (new region) to Jungles of Green Mist (existing province) in Lustria.

    - Added a mountain pass to the western mountain range of Spine of Sotek connecting Spine of Sotek and Huahuan Desert.


    New Minor Factions (Mortal Empires):

    - Clan Mange (Skaven, Lustria) Start in the Northern Spine of Sotek and Creeping Jungle provinces.

    - Clan Fester (Skaven) Starts in Xahutec (Northern Great Jungle), Fuming Serpent (Volcanic Islands) and Marks of the Old Ones (Headhunter's Jungle). They're the starting enemy for Teclis, Tehenhauin and Lokhir Fellheart.



    Hunter and the Beast (development time: 4.5 months)


    Legendary Characters:
    LL's:
    Markus Wulfhart
    Nakai the Wanderer
    Gor-Rok

    LH's:
    Jorek Grimm
    Rodrik l'Anguille
    Hertwig Van Hal
    Klara of Wydrioth

    + Gotrek and Felix (developed and revealed at the same time as this DLC, only released a little later to coincide with WD)

    Generic Lords/heroes:
    Ancient Kroxigor (new)
    Huntsman General (new)

    Empire units:
    Archers (new-ish)
    Huntsman (new)
    War Wagon (new)
    War Wagon Mortar (kitbash of Wagon and mortar)
    Gyrocopters (Wulfhart exclusive)

    RoR's:
    Deathjacks (archers)
    White Wolves (huntsman)
    War Wagon helblaster volly gun.

    Elector Count State Troops:
    Carronburg Greatswords
    Swords of Ulric (swordsmen)
    Nordland Mariners (Halberdiers)
    Stubborn Bulls (Empire knights w/ Greatweapons)
    Sootson's Guns (Mortars)
    Stir River Patrol (Crossbowmen)
    Noble Sons Abroad (Pistoleers)
    The Emperors Wrath (Ulric Steamtank)
    Gunderson's Surefires (Handgunners. Although they're Hochland Longrifles in the Lore)
    Kights of the Everlasting light (Empire Knights)
    Eldred's Guard (Spearmen)
    The Bordermen (Outriders Grenade Launchers)
    Knights of Morr (Empire Knights)

    Lizardmen units:
    Feral Dread Saurian (new)
    Dread Saurian with Howdah
    Sacred Kroxigors (new-ish)
    Razordon Hunting Pack (reskin of Salamanders)

    RoR's:
    Shredder of Lustria (Dread Saurian howdah)
    Cohort of Huatl (sacred Kroxigors)
    Amaxon Barbs (Razordons)

    Total:
    8 Legendary Characters
    2 generic Lord/heroes
    22 units (18 Empire, 4 Lizardmen units)
    6 RoR's.

    Updates and New Campaigns:
    - Huge Empire rework
    - New Fort Settlements
    - Imperial Authority, prestige and political events + Machinations like HE's have.
    - Fealty and elector counts offices with Runefangs
    - Imperial factions can now return territory to each other
    - Slann rework with proper lores of magic and different generations.
    - Multiplayer unit caps.

    Wulfhart's campaign could have done with a few extra things (don't let him recruit units via buildings for example) but despite its flaws, it was one of the best campaigns added to WH2. Nakai's campaign is very unique but wasn't able to fix the issues with hordes and thus suffers from alot of the same issues as them (Nakai's campaign is essentially broken until further notice, Dead on arrival).


    Warhammer 2 Campaign Map Additions and Changes

    Mortal Empires:

    - Added Konquata and Citadel of Lead (new regions) to Albion (existing province)

    - The Misty Hills (new province) added to the Northern Empire and contains 2 new regions: Black Pit (province capital) and Wreckers point.

    - Added Middenstag (new region) to Middenland (existing province)

    - Pfieldorf was removed from Wissenland province and added to the new Solland province.

    - Added Dotternbach (new region) to Wissenland (existing province)

    - Added Steingart (new region) to Solland (new province)

    - Added Niedling and Flensburg (new regions) to Stirland (existing province)

    - Added Fort Bergbres (new Empire Border Fort region) to Gisoreux Gap (new province)

    - Added Fort Soll (new Empire Border Fort region) to Winter's Teeth Pass (new province)

    - The Moot was removed from Stirland Province and made its own minor settlement province (named Mootland).

    - Laurelorn Forest was added as a new 1 settlement province and all the relevant Landmark buildings from Salzenmund were relocated there.


    Shadow and the Blade (development time: 3 months)


    Legendary Characters:
    Malus Darkblade
    Deathmaster Snikch

    Generic Lords/heroes:
    Beastmasters (new)
    Master (Kitbash)
    Master assassin (reskin)
    Eshin Sorcerer (new)

    Dark Elf units:
    Scourgerunner Chariots (New)
    Bloodwrack Madusae (new)
    Bloodwrack Shrine (reuse of assets in this DLC and DLC's prior)

    RoR's:
    The Siren of Red Ruin (Bloodwrach medusa)
    Ravagers of Rakarth (Scourgerunner chariot)
    The Crows of khaine (Harpies)

    Skaven Units:
    Eshin Triads (new)
    Poisoned-Wind Mortar (new)
    Warp-Grinder Weapon Teams (new)

    RoR's:
    The Avalanche Mortar (Death Globe Mortars)
    Viskrin's Death Squad (Death Runners)
    Ishka's Triads (Eshin Triads)

    Total:

    2 Legendary Characters
    4 Generic Lord/heroes
    3 Dark Elf 3 Skaven)
    6 RoR's

    Update and new campaigns:
    - End Turn Times were absolutely obliterated
    - Major factions renamed
    - Clan Pestilens minor update
    - many other QoL and minor changes

    Snikch got a very extensive scheme mechanic which allowed him to manipulate factions across the map, steal and even blow up other settlements or factions, plus he can do contracts for other Skaven Clans. Malus basically has to participate in the vortex and balance Tzarkan. The dual start was great, but his campaign was very bare bones overall.

    Warhammer 2 Campaign Map Additions and Changes

    Mortal Empires:

    - Renamed the province "Desolation of Nagash" to "Southern World's Edge Mountains".

    - Added Dragon Isles (new province) to The Sea of Dread, south of The Dark Lands, with 3 regions: Dread Rock (province capital), Dragon Fang mount and Shattered Stone Isle.

    - Added The Wolf Lands (new province) to the Dark Lands with 3 regions: Crookback Mountain (province capital), Mount Greyhag and Mount Silverspear.

    - Added Gnoblar Country (new province) to The Dark Lands with 3 regions: Flayed Rock (province capital), Haunted Forest and Pigbarter.

    - Added Broken Teeth (new province) east of the "Southern World's Edge Mountains", with 2 regions: Nagashizzar (province capital) and Desolation of Nagash.



    Warden and the Paunch (development time: 5 months)


    Legendary Characters:
    Eltharion the Grim
    Grom the Paunch
    Imrik of Caledor

    Generic Lord/Heroes:
    Archmage (Lord)
    Giant River Hag Troll (Hero)
    Goblin Great Shaman w/ Arachnarok Mount
    Black Orc Big Boss (hero)

    High Elf units
    Rangers (kitbash)
    Silverin Guard
    War Lions of Chrace (slight reuse of prior assets but more new than old)
    Lion Chariot of Chrace (same as above)
    Arcane Phoenix (reskin)

    Campaign Exlcusive units (all of which are some kind of reskin or reuse of existing stuff):
    The Skyhawks
    Sentinels of Astaril
    Spire Guard of Tor Yvresse
    Athel Tamarha Faithbearers
    Knights of Tor Gaval
    Imrik's 5 dragons

    RoR's:
    Talons of Tor Caleda (Caledor Archers)
    Rahagra's Pride (War Lions)
    Omen of Asuryan (Arcane Phoenix)

    Greenskin units
    Snotling Pump Wagons
    Snotling Pump Wagons (Flappas)
    Snotling Pump Wagons (Spiky Rollers)
    River Trolls (new)
    Stone Trolls (Kitbash)
    Rogue Idol (new)
    Fire Arachnarok (reskin)
    Fire Spider riders (reskin)
    Hydra (reuse of existing unit)
    Feral Wyvern (re-used model)
    explosive squigs (new as a unit)
    armoured squig riders (new)
    Spider hatchlings (new as a unit)

    RoR's:
    Logey Bogey's Spore 'Sploda's (Snotling Pump Wagon)
    Da Swamp Fings (River Trolls)
    Da Big 'Un (Rogue Idol)

    Total:

    3 legendary characters
    4 generic lord/heroes
    6 RoR's (all of which were based on the new units)
    28 units (15 high elf units, 13 Greenskin units)

    Also, remember they had planned to add Blacktoof, a Black Orc Warboss and a few other things but ran out of time/money/covid messed up their schedule, so it was going to be even bigger.

    Updates and new campaigns:
    - Greenskin Waaagh rework (in campaign and battles)
    - new GS trophy mechanic
    - Reputation added to Greenskins
    - GS reworked Tech Tree and Skill Trees/LL's/Unique items and abilities
    - New GS Scrap mechanic
    - Woodsmen and strider reworked to allow units and characters to walk through trees
    - High Elf influence rebalance


    HE's got Athel tamara (good, but doesn't last long), Grom gets an awesome cooking mechanic. Grom can mess around all campaign and have a good time, but Ehtarion's campaign (especially in vortex) is fundamentally flawed due to how it works; there's no real stakes, rush and because sieges haven't been reworked yet, Tor Yvresse's unique map is a quest battle only.


    Warhammer 2 Map additions and changes
    - Added "The Marshes of Madness" (new province) to the Badlands with 2 new regions: Morgheim (province capital) and Floating village.

    - Added "Shrine of Loec" and "Tralinia" (new regions) to Yvresse (existing province)

    - Added Shattered Cove (new region) to Gnoblar Country (existing province)

    - Added Karak Raziak (new region) to Northern World's Edge Mountains (existing province)

    - Added Khazid Irkulaz (existing region) to Peak Pass (existing province)

    Name Changes
    - Okenhammer in Zhufbar province has been renamed to "Cragmere".

    - Grimhold in the Southern Grey Mountains province has been renamed to "Fester Spike".

    New Major Factions:
    - DLC: Yvresse (High Elves) led by Eltharion the Grim has a dual start in Tor Yvresse (Ulthuan) and Gronti Mingol (Southern Badlands. If you aren't playing as the faction, they only start in Yvresse, but their AI is programmed to invade the Badlands.

    - DLC: Grom the Paunch (Greenskins) starts in Massif Orcal when playing as him. If you're playing as Eltharion, he replaces the "Skull Crag" minor faction in Blightwater province. If you aren't playing as either, he starts in control of all the minor settlements of Yvresse.

    - FLC: Knights of Caledor (High Elves) led by Imrik of Caledor added to Fortress of Vorag in the Plain of Bones province

    - WAAAGH! Update: the Bonerattlerz (Greenskins) led by Azhag the Slaughterer moved to Red Eye Mountain and made a fully fledged faction of his own.

    New minor factions:
    -Clan Volkn (Skaven) now control Crooked Fang Fort, Valaya's Sorrow and Dringorackaz, minor Settlements in the Eastern Badlands province.

    - Clan Ferrik (Skaven) start in control of Cragmere and Karag Dromar in the Zhufbar province.

    - Clan Spittel (Skaven) start in control of Fester Spike in the Southern Grey Mountains.

    - Clan Kreepus (Skaven) s Mordheim in the Ostermark province.

    - Clan Helhein (Dwarfs) start in control of Mount Greyhag, Ash Ridge Mountains and Darkhold in the Wolf Lands and Plain of Bones provinces.

    - Skull Crag (Greenskins) Misty Mountain, Kradtommen and Deff Gorge minor settlements in the Blightwater province.

    New Landmarks:
    Darkhold – Graves of the Dragons
    Eringrad – Chaos Troll Lair
    Ka Sabar – City of Bronze
    Fortress of Vorag – Tower of the Bloodytooth
    Marshes of Madness – Lost Necropolis of Mourkain
    Massif Orcal – Stone Troll Quarry
    Mount Arachnos – Lair of the Broodmother

    Notes:
    - Karak Eight Peaks is now a ten-slot settlement.
    - Dragon Isles: Dread Rock, Shattered Stone Isle, and Dragon Fang Mount are all now port settlements.
    - Much of the territory previously belonging to the Red Fangs and Karak Azul has been distributed to new factions (Skull Crag and Clan Volkun).
    - The Strygos Empire has relocated to the new Marshes of Madness province. Its former holdings in Zandri are now occupied by the Top Knotz. In addition, The Master Necromancer leading the faction has been renamed "Kadon".
    - Karak Azgal has been burned to the ground by the great dragon, Graug the Terrible, and now starts the campaign abandoned.



    Twisted and the Twilight (7 months development)


    Legendary Characters:
    LL:
    Sisters of Twilight (or, their mounts I guess...)
    Throt the Unclean
    Drycha

    LH:
    Ariel
    Ghorich
    Coadill (re-colour)

    Generic Lords/Heores:
    Packmaster hero (new)
    Chieftain (TBC)
    Glade Captain (Sister of the Thorn kitbash)
    Spellweaver lord (kitbash)

    Wood Elf Units:
    Glade Riders w/ spears (glade guard on horses)
    Zoats (Dragon Ogre reskin, with their rig and 2/3 new animations)
    Great Stag Knights (reskin and upscaled size)
    Bladesingers (reskin)

    Drycha units:
    Giant Wolves (Canines still have that horrible Norscan Ice Wolves model from WH1. This unit is something we've seen modders do for years, even before CA allowed them to add new files)

    Giant Spiders (cool, please add to Greenskins)
    Cave Bats (living fell bats)
    Feral Manticore (same as with other factions)
    Feral Hawks (Hawk riders without the elves)

    RoR's:
    Wraiths of the Frozen heart (dryads)
    Lost Sylvan knights (great Stag knights)
    Enigmas of Ghyran (Zoats)

    Skaven Units:
    Broodhorrors (new)
    Mutated Rat Ogres (reskin single entity Rat Ogre)
    Wolf Rats (new-ish)

    RoR's:
    Pit fighters of hells deep (rat Ogres)
    Morskittar's hellion (mutant rat ogres)
    the Thing Thing (hell pit abomination)

    Total:

    5 legendary characters + Coadill
    4 generic lords/heroes
    6 RoR's (only 3 of them are even of the new units!)
    13 new units (10 Wood Elf, 3 Skaven)
    6 RoR's

    Updates and new campaign mechanics:
    - Footlords knockdown reduced
    - we can now Abandon settlements
    - all ranged and magic projectiles now get a 1.2 grace period in forests where they will pass through trees.

    Throt gets a crazy fleshlab similar to Ikit's workshop. The Sisters get a Grombrindal style dilemma text adventure mechanic (Sotek says its better than it looks) Wood Elves get an economy nerf, a forest heal system, a reworked tech tree, teleportation to other forests and thats about it.

    No weaves, no seasons, no complex court system or divide between their peoples personality. No random events that make you go feral and attack an ally or struggling with balancing light and dark magic to expand the wood without damaging it. No undercity or new hidden base style mechanic. Still take diplomatic penalties for travelling through other peoples regions at all times.


    Warhammer 2 Campaign map additions and Changes

    New Minor Factions:
    - Broken Chainz (Greenskins)

    4 new forest settlements, Throt's new Naggaroth starting settlement, 5 new settlements east of the Worlds edge mountains and that's all we know so far (also, that eastern section isn't going to be used by anyone in this DLC as far as we know, so its not really relevant like the Dark Lands or past new areas. It doesn't synergise with the content it comes with.

    It should be noted Sotek mentioned he couldn't talk about all the map stuff due to an embargo (seems like somethings been added in the south and the Fortress of Dawn look to have greater holdings at the start of Vortex) Maybe they've finally expanded the ME map south, which would be amazing, but this is what we have now.


    Closing thoughts


    Its important to note the Shadow and the Blade wasn't meant to be as big as the others. CA had a few extra months after September before their holidays and as they were winding down, they decided to make a little extra pack which focused more on general QoL.

    This is important to note because, looking at the bigger picture, CA's DLC's have almost unanimously seen improvements upon what came before and there are very distinct periods of quality one can point to: WH1 was the worst, early WH2 was better but still rocky, then with the Vampire Coast and Prophet & Warlock we saw the greatest period, where things were mostly getting better.

    When put in context T&T seems to be something of a lull in their general trend towards bigger and better things. Having 6 characters isn't really a groundbreaking thing, and in my opinion it doesn't make up for the units being half what we saw in the last two big DLC's or the lack in QoT and Map updates (still subject to change). Characters are great and all but Modders have been successfully supplementing the need for them for years at this point, the real meat and potatoes of the series which modders can't provide is the new units, rigs and animations, of which we saw a scant few this time outside of said characters.

    T&T is still worth the price of admission at this point. However, I suspect CA may have forcefully pulled back the reigns on this one in order to keep the £7 price tag (which is why we have less this time than we saw in the past), and if that's the case, then the price tag becomes a major issue. I know many of us would say CA are underpaid for what we get in general, but just as many people would also say we never get enough for how long we waited and the finite amount of DLC's CA can feasibly create for this series makes each half baked faction released that bit more frustrating. Clearly this price model has strained to breaking point and is generally displeasing both the audience and the company in one aspect or another.

    In conclusion, I think CA and the community need to have a real talk about upping the price of their DLC and in turn the content we get for them.
    Excellent post, and what I wanted to say but was too much to write.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 5,985
    edited November 2020
    Many of the units you call reskins are actually remodels, but the analysis is mostly correct and I absolutely agree price should be increased for more content.
  • AnonimatoAnonimato Registered Users Posts: 218

    i suggest 4 LL packs for $20 and just get lot more and more quality content . i know this sound bad but compared to other game dlc this doesn't seem bad at all

    I agree or Faction Pack 2LL of the same faction same as Lord Packs but concentrated on one race. let say 2LL and for Brettonia at 9$

    I welcome other choices, Lord packs are not doing it for me for a long time now.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
    edited November 2020
    @lucibuis

    They do not qualify for this list as new units because they add less than nothing, they're just a faction recolour, they're worse than us getting Feral Cold Ones as a unit.

    Even if I added them, the DLC would still have less than prior packs. My OP would be functionally unchanged.
  • KelefaneKelefane Registered Users Posts: 2,699
    For those saying to raise the price for more content, well, the price was raised by $1 across the board for all LPs several weeks ago.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
    edited November 2020
    @Kelefane

    We mean raise it to £14-20 ish per Lord Pack.

    Raise the quantity and quality of their DLC content, then raise the price to match it.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 5,498

    @lucibuis

    They do not qualify for this list as new units because they add less than nothing, they're just a faction recolour, they're worse than us getting Feral Cold Ones as a unit.

    Even if I added them, the DLC would still have less than prior packs. My OP would be functionally unchanged.

    but you counted Imrik's dragons as 5, aren't they just different colors as well?
  • KelefaneKelefane Registered Users Posts: 2,699

    @Kelefane

    We mean raise it to £14-20 ish per Lord Pack

    There is a fine line here. Having this many DLC for a game to a new person thinking about buying it, would seem extremely daunting. Especially for someone new looking to get into it right now. So doubling the price or so of DLCs maybe a bad marketing move. Maybe CA puts this into consideration. Paradox rarely charges over $9.99 for DLC as an example and they are the DLC kings.

    How much are both games and DLC combined right now? That maybe turning away a lot of people. Then when WH3 comes out this problem only gets exponentially worse.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
    edited November 2020
    @lucibuis

    Imrik's Dragons add entirely new creatures to the High Elf faction (Forest Dragons and Black Dragons, etc) they have unique names, stat lines and abilities (you could argue they're technically new characters in the same way Coadill is). They contribute something new to Imrik's race, even if that something comes from an already existing unit in the game (hence why I added Feral Manticores to Drycha's new units, even though they've been in the game since Chaos/Beastmen first dropped).

    Drycha's forest spirits have been an integral part of the Wood Elf roster since release and contribute nothing new to the factions roster itself, they aren't even really variants since it doesn't appear like they have different rebalanced stats or abilities and outside of Frenzy (which is part of Drycha's faction traits) They don't have a different weapon, alt fire, a shield, or anything to distinguish them from their generic counterparts.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 578
    This DLC adds some of the best flavorful units any DLC has ever added. Compare this to the bland H&B (units), this is a clear winner.

    Yes I do agree the twins unique mechanic is underwhelming and that we didnt get any new tree units or even variants but other than it was a great DLC. But people just love to cry and complain when they dont get exactly what they asked for.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 5,498

    @lucibuis

    Imrik's Dragons add entirely new creatures to the High Elf faction (Forest Dragons and Black Dragons, etc) they have unique names, stat lines and abilities (you could argue they're technically new characters in the same way Coadill is). They contribute something new to Imrik's faction, even if that something comes from an already existing unit in the game (hence why I added Feral Manticores to Drycha's new units, even though they've been in the game since Chaos/Beastmen first dropped).

    Drycha's forest spirits have been an integral part of the Wood Elf roster since release and contribute nothing new to the factions roster itself, they aren't even really variants since it doesn't appear like they have different rebalanced stats or abilities and outside of Frenzy (which is part of Drycha's faction traits) They don't have a different weapon, alt fire, a shield, or anything to distinguish them from their generic counterparts.

    mmmhh not convinced, I saw they have almost the same stats and have same abilities of the old ones... i think for fairness sake, the malevolent units must be added, as lazy as they are
  • RheingoldRheingold Registered Users Posts: 752
    edited November 2020
    They won't raise the price. If they did, it would be by a small amount. When you talk about the "community" who would presumably have this discussion you are talking about a tiny, insignificant section of customers. CA raising the price substantially would potentially create a massive backlash and entail real financial risk.
    Right now the game and dlc are selling well. There is simply no way in hell they will change the way things are done now. Frankly, it would be a terrible business decision.
    The bean counters are in charge, not the creatives, and they are always conservative. Moving to a new financial model is a big deal and would entail more than than having a discussion with the "community" no matter how self important that community is.
  • expaexpa Registered Users Posts: 38
    @SeanJeanquoi amazing work.

    Thank you for pointing out these things.


    The tech tree got nerfed, yes there are some cool techs in it, but overall a nerf.

    The Offices are absolutely crap. The empire got rid of them as they were not good, but the WE kept them.

    Orion Wild hunt is a failure.

    Durthu mechanic is a green skin recycle and it has drawbacks. (yes I like that ability and would like to see it with banners for most factions, but it needs to be pointed out that is a reskin).

    The sisters are going to be a Tic Tac Toe meme with wild hawks spamming arrows of kurnos.
    The mechanic for the sisters is atrocious, garbage and absolute trash.

    Drycha is going to be decent, but not amazing. The not funny part is that you don't get the units in multiplayer. Yes all campaign units should be available in multiplayer

    Their going to encounter the same issues as before both in campaign and multiplayer. Their settlements are going to be blown up easy. Their units are going to die even faster than before.


    I don't know what is wrong with people from CA and their obsession for sending the WE naked to fight.
    The WE are a race of master craftsmen who live in a magical forest with plenty of game and plants and they can't WEAVE a gambeson or craft a leather armor from the hide of some magnificent animal.


    I saw Ariel model and I liked it for the 5 seconds and then I realised she went to war in her nightgown. Who goes to war in his / her pijama? But don't worry she has her toe nails done it gives 5 % ward save.


    Not to say that both Orion and Ariel which are avatars of Gods are overall weak with no decent true ward save and their skills are not impressive.

    On a scale of a 1 to 10 I will give this a 3, but I find it disappointing.

    Another problem which many people don't understand is that this is a DLC for a DLC. all those beast man fans you better start praying or pushing so that this one is made much better or yours most likely will be a joke as well.


    Have a nice day.




  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
    edited November 2020
    @Kelefane

    That's already happened. They keep the individual DLC price low so as not to scare people off but that already happens and they're effectively stalling. regardless, it will eventually reach a point where alot of people who haven't already taken the plunge are just going to not want to bother.

    They already have a big dedicated fanbase. their official posts here typically get like 30k views and if every one of those people bought a £20 DLC, that'd be 600,000 for them right there (and that isn't even everyone).

    I'd argue they could easily turn a profit off their dedicated fans alone so long as they keep them happy.
  • KelefaneKelefane Registered Users Posts: 2,699
    Its a slippery slope.

  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,587
    The fact that we basically get 4 LLs this time makes it one of the best LPs for me so far.

    I thought W&P was the best but Eltharions campaign was extremely disappointing so H&B is right now still No. 1 for me.

    For any further judgement I have to play it myself but so far it looks extremely promising.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,043

    @Kelefane

    That's already happened. They keep the individual DLC price low so as not to scare people off but that already happens and they're effectively stalling. regardless, it will eventually reach a point where alot of people who haven't already taken the plunge are just going to not want to bother.

    They already have a big dedicated fanbase. their official posts here typically get like 30k views and if every one of those people bought a £20 DLC, that'd be 600,000 for them right there (and that isn't even everyone).

    I'd argue they could easily turn a profit off their dedicated fans alone so long as they keep them happy.

    You’d be surprised. A lot of people I see posting on here saying they’re thinking about buying one of the dlcs which one should they get...

    Not everyone owns every dlc and both games.

    Your post is very interesting tho
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
    @Theo91

    That kind of adds to my point though. If someone is apprehensive about getting into the series they aren't necessarily going to be turned off by a £20 LP, they may just not get it or wait for a sale, but still buy other parts.

    I see alot of people make those posts too, in my experience its less people saying 'I cant afford it all' and more people saying 'what's good and what's trash?' or 'what should I buy first'.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,043
    The problem with dlc has which I imagine BM might also encounter is the original race pack it’s based off was very poor.

    People really didn’t like the amber mechanic and once you take that away, you’re not left with much at all.

    I think starting from scratch on the WE side of things really hurt them in terms of time and budget.

    But I agree, when you look at it compared to previous LPs it doesn’t look as good, albeit it’s still worth the £7 to me.
  • HondlisHondlis Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 588
    What i miss most are more RoR units.
    Back in the day CA was releasing close to 10 RoR for both factions and then, when it was second cycle for core factions they dropped to 3.

    Releasing 3 for faction that never had this time of DLC care previously is a major bummer.
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 897
    If I were to rank CAs WH2 DLCs on my personal bias it would be roughly like this

    1. Prophet and Warlock: Tehuains campaign is lacking, but from a unit perspective the LM and Skaven get many essential units they were missing in the base game

    2. Warden & Punch: Eltharions mistwalker units are mostly reskins and do not look that impressive, except for gryphon knights. The arcane phoenix is somewhat redunant too, but the white lions are my favorite HE unit. On the GS side the update was massive and the new units are great, groms mechanics are a lot of fun

    3. Without the Empire update and Wulfharts cool campaign mechanic this dlc would rank much lower. Because non of the new units add anything of substance. The dreadsaurian is cool, no doubt. And sacred kroxigors are useful. But they do nothing the lizardmen couldn't do before, and the empire got two archers and war waggons in return. That was a one-sided dlc in regards to new units (most elector count troops were also just reskins)

    4. T&T: the base WE update looks cool and will make the campaign much more fun, plus tons of WE characters. Unitwise much more could have been done for the WE. The skaven side however is even more then I anticepated and they look very cool. In pros and cons T&T is close to hunter&beast IMO. Though I still have to play it, so it may change its position

    5. S&B: from my perspective the most unnecessary dlc. Though the mechanics it introduced for its LL are still better than average. But with the exception on medusas and gas mortars the new units offer nothing to me. The potion of speed update was still the best part.

    6. Q&C: adds only a few interesting mechanics and most of the units are useful, but somewhat uninspiring. Though Alarielle using forest spirits was a nice gesture.
  • LevicariumLevicarium Registered Users Posts: 461
    sykall said:

    If I were to rank CAs WH2 DLCs on my personal bias it would be roughly like this

    1. Prophet and Warlock: Tehuains campaign is lacking, but from a unit perspective the LM and Skaven get many essential units they were missing in the base game

    2. Warden & Punch: Eltharions mistwalker units are mostly reskins and do not look that impressive, except for gryphon knights. The arcane phoenix is somewhat redunant too, but the white lions are my favorite HE unit. On the GS side the update was massive and the new units are great, groms mechanics are a lot of fun

    3. Without the Empire update and Wulfharts cool campaign mechanic this dlc would rank much lower. Because non of the new units add anything of substance. The dreadsaurian is cool, no doubt. And sacred kroxigors are useful. But they do nothing the lizardmen couldn't do before, and the empire got two archers and war waggons in return. That was a one-sided dlc in regards to new units (most elector count troops were also just reskins)

    4. T&T: the base WE update looks cool and will make the campaign much more fun, plus tons of WE characters. Unitwise much more could have been done for the WE. The skaven side however is even more then I anticepated and they look very cool. In pros and cons T&T is close to hunter&beast IMO. Though I still have to play it, so it may change its position

    5. S&B: from my perspective the most unnecessary dlc. Though the mechanics it introduced for its LL are still better than average. But with the exception on medusas and gas mortars the new units offer nothing to me. The potion of speed update was still the best part.

    6. Q&C: adds only a few interesting mechanics and most of the units are useful, but somewhat uninspiring. Though Alarielle using forest spirits was a nice gesture.

    I agree with this list almost 100%, although for slightly different reasons. Might still replace 3 and 4. We'll see.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
    @sykall

    I mostly agree with you too.

    I actually really loved Queen and the Crone, my main issue with it is the fact that its a DLC full of stuff that really should have been in the base game to begin with.
  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 325
    expa said:

    Yes all campaign units should be available in multiplayer

    No they should very much not be available in MP, not being part of MP is what allowed CA to created the good parts of the Elector Count units, if those units were available in MP the MP crowd would soon have them nerfed into unfun uselessness outside the MP meta.
  • LolTHELolLolTHELol Registered Users Posts: 1,041
    This is basically a live service game and we are calling for more content and regular content for years now.

    I will fully support a price increase if we get more unique units and legendary lords.
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