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Why weren't Wildwood rangers reworked?

gelatinous_cubegelatinous_cube Registered Users Posts: 37
I find it strange that Wildwood rangers were completely unchanged in the Wood Elf update. The bladesingers fill the AP anti-infantry role so they seem a bit redundant. Lore wise, they really should be anti-large monster killers and Wood Elves now lack an elite anti-large unit. Bit of an oversight perhaps. Or can anyone see a balance/gameplay reason for leaving them as they are?

Comments

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,214
    Yep. They're redundant. They are the Big Uns of WE.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,580
    Maybe they should have vanguard deployment?
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,689
    They need to get totally retooled IMO. WW rangers need to be rebranded, instead of being a regular old great weapon unit, they should remade to basically be like Halberdiers(as in, their stats should, not their animations), great at killing armored monsters and cavalry, while still being pretty good against infantry though with better options for dealing with those units.
  • Xerxes52Xerxes52 Registered Users Posts: 652
    Agreed. I would give them +12 Anti-Large and Charge Defence vs Large natively, while their Guardian of the Wildwood ability gives them an additional +8 Anti-Large and Expert Charge Defense in forests.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,731
    I think they should get Stalk. Gives them a unique niche as a Great Weapons unit that is fragile, but can close the distance unseen, avoiding artillery and ranged units until the last moment.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,214
    Xerxes52 said:

    Agreed. I would give them +12 Anti-Large and Charge Defence vs Large natively, while their Guardian of the Wildwood ability gives them an additional +8 Anti-Large and Expert Charge Defense in forests.

    Might have to up them a tier for that one.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 1,989
    Krunch said:

    They need to get totally retooled IMO. WW rangers need to be rebranded, instead of being a regular old great weapon unit, they should remade to basically be like Halberdiers(as in, their stats should, not their animations), great at killing armored monsters and cavalry, while still being pretty good against infantry though with better options for dealing with those units.

    imo it's the Bladesingers who should be retooled.


    While it's not a rule set in stone, there's a convention with weapon types that exists for the sake of readability. Spears are antilarge, swords/axes are basic, two handed axe/hammers are ap, halberds are antilarge Ap. And of course, dual wielding one handed swords/axes is non-ap anti Infantry.


    Bladesingers are a bit jarring because they LOOK like they should be non-Ap anti Infantry, but turns out they somehow do have AP. Enough to stomp Chosen.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,192
    Krunch said:

    They need to get totally retooled IMO. WW rangers need to be rebranded, instead of being a regular old great weapon unit, they should remade to basically be like Halberdiers(as in, their stats should, not their animations), great at killing armored monsters and cavalry, while still being pretty good against infantry though with better options for dealing with those units.

    Except they were a monster killing halberd unit in TWW1 and they were redesigned because there was no point of having a monster killing unit with asrai spears on the game.

    The WE roster simply did not have more space for infantry without adding armored units. Bladesingers were a useless addition.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    Should also be noted that the Glade Captain unique skill relating to them is also the worst of her options.

    She gains Immune to Psych and gives Wildwood Rangers Vanguard (a trait they should perhaps have already).

    I was incredibly surprised that they weren't Anti-Large even before the Update, but after?

    I really like the introduction of Hearthlands and the ability to teleport, but they've still failed to give the Wood Elf campaign any real direction, its still very stagnant and the current system is so skewed towards confederating the other Elves, that its basically unviable to heal the forests and win without conquering them all, meaning players who hate confederation (and why wouldn't you) have no real options.

    There are layers of depth still fundamentally absent from the WE's, they only added 1 basic variant and their roster still fundamentally struggles against certain things without the aid of a single new and expensive unit (stags).

    They could give the Wood Elves 3 updates tantamount to what we just received and not even be finished. This was definitely a step backwards from the GS and Empire updates, almost dropping back down to the Bretonnia update in terms of quality.

  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 1,989

    Should also be noted that the Glade Captain unique skill relating to them is also the worst of her options.

    She gains Immune to Psych and gives Wildwood Rangers Vanguard (a trait they should perhaps have already).

    I was incredibly surprised that they weren't Anti-Large even before the Update, but after?

    I really like the introduction of Hearthlands and the ability to teleport, but they've still failed to give the Wood Elf campaign any real direction, its still very stagnant and the current system is so skewed towards confederating the other Elves, that its basically unviable to heal the forests and win without conquering them all, meaning players who hate confederation (and why wouldn't you) have no real options.

    There are layers of depth still fundamentally absent from the WE's, they only added 1 basic variant and their roster still fundamentally struggles against certain things without the aid of a single new and expensive unit (stags).

    They could give the Wood Elves 3 updates tantamount to what we just received and not even be finished. This was definitely a step backwards from the GS and Empire updates, almost dropping back down to the Bretonnia update in terms of quality.

    They're WE equivalent of "greatsword" units.
    Their version of Swordmaster and Executioners
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 423

    Should also be noted that the Glade Captain unique skill relating to them is also the worst of her options.

    She gains Immune to Psych and gives Wildwood Rangers Vanguard (a trait they should perhaps have already).

    I was incredibly surprised that they weren't Anti-Large even before the Update, but after?

    I really like the introduction of Hearthlands and the ability to teleport, but they've still failed to give the Wood Elf campaign any real direction, its still very stagnant and the current system is so skewed towards confederating the other Elves, that its basically unviable to heal the forests and win without conquering them all, meaning players who hate confederation (and why wouldn't you) have no real options.

    There are layers of depth still fundamentally absent from the WE's, they only added 1 basic variant and their roster still fundamentally struggles against certain things without the aid of a single new and expensive unit (stags).

    They could give the Wood Elves 3 updates tantamount to what we just received and not even be finished. This was definitely a step backwards from the GS and Empire updates, almost dropping back down to the Bretonnia update in terms of quality.

    They're WE equivalent of "greatsword" units.
    Their version of Swordmaster and Executioners
    Nah I don't believe that. It seems to be they tried to mix Phoenix guards and swordmasters for some reason. While making them fit in the wood elf roster.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    edited December 2020
    @GreenColoured

    CA didn't make that subtle by copy-pasting the greatsword animations, even though that's not how glaves are used.

    Bladesingers and Wardancers fill that role already. Glaves aren't really used for armour and the Wildwood Rangers exist to hunt large creatures.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,214
    edited December 2020
    Eternal Guard and a variety of artillery-lite bows make short work of large things though.

    Also they have spear wardancers, which also double as armor penetrating, lol. Honestly they're better anti-armored infantry than some other empire's dedicated anti-armor units.

    WE units are all a bit over powered, if you haven't noticed.

    I think they are supposed to have few armies, but really good ones, but....... that's not how it works out. You can have just as many armies as anyone else - and they're all amazing.

    Keep in mind that WE were completely untouched since game 1 and were still highly competitive for the entire life of game 2. Now they got more stuff.

    Glade Captain is also redundant btw. Just a bad waystalker with a cool ride.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    @Itharus

    Oh I forgot about the Glade Captain being redundant, its been a while since I played them on release.

    I'd say the Waystalker is the one that's more redundant now considering the Glade Captains utility and skills.

    It is really, really dumb though. They should have gotten a shadow dancer hero alongside the captain, but instead, they stretched the Glade Captain across every possible niche to attempt to plug the holes in their roster and in so doing, made them a hybrid anti-large character who can get the dances of Loec...

    They're meant to shoot, but their arrows are sh*t, they're meant to fight monsters and characters, but they're a squishy hybrid, they're meant to be a shadow dancer, but lack spells, have a ranged attack and only gain the dances if you go down one specific path which is locked off otherwise...

    They're a total mess.
  • eomateomat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,980
    They should have their model updated to use the White Lions stance. Using a glaive like a Greatsword is just weird.
  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,617
    edited December 2020
    So Wildwood Rangers started out as an an elite armour-piercing, anti-large unit. That role meant competing with Eternal Guard and Asrai Spears as well as units like Waywatchers, resulting in unit that offered a lot of functional overlap and very few selling points. They didn't see much use and were generally a problematic value proposition. They'd trade poorly into cheaper infantry and the cheaper spears would generally do a good enough job at killing enemy large.

    At the same time the Wood Elves were missing a generalist armour-piercing melee unit. So in WH2, we made the choice to push Wildwood Rangers towards that role, turning them more into a White Lions equivalent for the Wood Elf roster. It's not a particularly glamorous unit role, but it is a functional one. We did look at revisiting Wildwood Rangers due to the addition of Bladesingers, but our conclusion was that Wildwood Rangers were in a good place in terms of balance and function. Hence we opted to keep them as they are.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 11,043
    edited December 2020
    CA_Duck said:

    So Wildwood Rangers started out as an an elite armour-piercing, anti-large unit. That role meant competing with Eternal Guard and Asrai Spears as well as units like Waywatchers, resulting in unit that offered a lot of functional overlap and very few selling points. They didn't see much use and were generally a problematic value proposition. They'd trade poorly into cheaper infantry and the cheaper spears would generally do a good enough job at killing enemy large.

    At the same time the Wood Elves were missing a generalist armour-piercing melee unit. So in WH2, we made the choice to push Wildwood Rangers towards that role, turning them more into a White Lions equivalent for the Wood Elf roster. It's not a particularly glamorous unit role, but it is a functional one. We did look at revisiting Wildwood Rangers due to the addition of Bladesingers, but our conclusion was that Wildwood Rangers were in a good place in terms of balance and function. Hence we opted to keep them as they are.

    But white lions have 30% missile resist, and armour
    i would argue giving them stalk and stat nerf might make them unique though.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • wadedaviswadedavis Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 39
    I like the stalk idea. At the very least, I don't imagine anyone would complain if they got stalk in the campaign if it were, say, unlocked by a specific tech. I do think they should have anti-large (or at least anti-monsters specifically) functionality given their lore...

    Also, while we're at it, I never liked the look of this unit... The original TT version had weapons that were more like bardiches; somewhere in between a longer pole-arm and a heavy axe, but certainly not a sword. I'm not a purist here, and I usually like CA's visual interpretations/alterations of the source material, but I think this was a corner they shouldn't have cut. Their original weapons made them unique, and I think it's always a net loss when CA makes stylistic changes that result in a unit looking and feeling less unique.

    It also creates dissonance. The lore says they hunt monsters; CA's unit models look and act like greatsword infantry; now CA is suggesting we think of them like white lions (i.e. axe infantry). That's fine, but I would feel better about their current role if they actually had axe-like weapons (with, say, white lion animations) like in the source material. As it stands, the lore, the function, and the look of the unit aren't really consistent, and I think that's partially why players lack enthusiasm for them. That's just my take.
  • ComradePeterComradePeter Registered Users Posts: 46
    wadedavis said:

    I like the stalk idea. At the very least, I don't imagine anyone would complain if they got stalk in the campaign if it were, say, unlocked by a specific tech. I do think they should have anti-large (or at least anti-monsters specifically) functionality given their lore...

    Also, while we're at it, I never liked the look of this unit... The original TT version had weapons that were more like bardiches; somewhere in between a longer pole-arm and a heavy axe, but certainly not a sword. I'm not a purist here, and I usually like CA's visual interpretations/alterations of the source material, but I think this was a corner they shouldn't have cut. Their original weapons made them unique, and I think it's always a net loss when CA makes stylistic changes that result in a unit looking and feeling less unique.

    It also creates dissonance. The lore says they hunt monsters; CA's unit models look and act like greatsword infantry; now CA is suggesting we think of them like white lions (i.e. axe infantry). That's fine, but I would feel better about their current role if they actually had axe-like weapons (with, say, white lion animations) like in the source material. As it stands, the lore, the function, and the look of the unit aren't really consistent, and I think that's partially why players lack enthusiasm for them. That's just my take.

    But we do have Wildwood Rangers with Spears, that are antilarge already.
  • wadedaviswadedavis Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 39
    edited December 2020
    I suspect you meant Wardancers with Spears, and yeah that's a fair point. I already ranted a bit, so I'll just sum up my suggestions:

    1: change their weapons to be more like their TT weapons (i.e. not swords). New animations would be great, although white lion animations would probably look fine (the concept art shows WWR holding their axes similar to the white lions).
    2: give them stalk and/or vanguard (preferably stalk, maybe just in the campaign, possibly tied to a tech).
    3: give them some kind of bonus against monsters specifically, so they're still vulnerable to cav, and the asrai dancers still have a role. In the end, I think WWR should be something between slayers and white lions. Better against infantry than asrai spears, worse against cav, still good against monsters.
    Post edited by wadedavis on
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 4,610
    edited December 2020
    CA_Duck said:

    So Wildwood Rangers started out as an an elite armour-piercing, anti-large unit. That role meant competing with Eternal Guard and Asrai Spears as well as units like Waywatchers, resulting in unit that offered a lot of functional overlap and very few selling points. They didn't see much use and were generally a problematic value proposition. They'd trade poorly into cheaper infantry and the cheaper spears would generally do a good enough job at killing enemy large.

    At the same time the Wood Elves were missing a generalist armour-piercing melee unit. So in WH2, we made the choice to push Wildwood Rangers towards that role, turning them more into a White Lions equivalent for the Wood Elf roster. It's not a particularly glamorous unit role, but it is a functional one. We did look at revisiting Wildwood Rangers due to the addition of Bladesingers, but our conclusion was that Wildwood Rangers were in a good place in terms of balance and function. Hence we opted to keep them as they are.

    So people will no longer use wildwood rangers because of the powercreep caused by adding bladesingers.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,214
    @CA_Duck Thank you for your explanation. I wish you guys all did a lot more of this. For those of us that play the **** out of this game, we really appreciate hearing the thought process as presented by the people doing the work, not the marketing team.

    :)
  • gelatinous_cubegelatinous_cube Registered Users Posts: 37
    CA_Duck said:

    So Wildwood Rangers started out as an an elite armour-piercing, anti-large unit. That role meant competing with Eternal Guard and Asrai Spears as well as units like Waywatchers, resulting in unit that offered a lot of functional overlap and very few selling points. They didn't see much use and were generally a problematic value proposition. They'd trade poorly into cheaper infantry and the cheaper spears would generally do a good enough job at killing enemy large.

    At the same time the Wood Elves were missing a generalist armour-piercing melee unit. So in WH2, we made the choice to push Wildwood Rangers towards that role, turning them more into a White Lions equivalent for the Wood Elf roster. It's not a particularly glamorous unit role, but it is a functional one. We did look at revisiting Wildwood Rangers due to the addition of Bladesingers, but our conclusion was that Wildwood Rangers were in a good place in terms of balance and function. Hence we opted to keep them as they are.

    Great to hear some of the behind the scenes thought processes on this! I can see the problem you had with finding a role for them in the roster. Just to give my own two pence on this, I think the root cause of this problem is a more general limitation with the way battles currently work. Lore-wise, and in the tabletop rules, Wildwood Rangers were specialist monster hunters. Currently in TWW infantry units can't really fill this role. Large monsters are countered by missiles, or to a lesser extent anti-large single entity monsters. I don't know what has to change to allow infantry units to fill a monster hunting role, but something quite fundamental I suspect. One approach which has been suggested before would be to divide the current anti-large mechanic into anti-cavalry and anti-monster. This would allow for a unit to specialise in killing monsters. You may also have to make further changes to collision mechanics to allow infantry to actually land hits on single entity monsters, though this could also be achieved with a short range snare or slowing mechanic for a monster hunting infantry unit. Finally, missiles would have to be made less effective against single large entities, e.g. by giving them all a boosted missile resistance, because currently this is just by far the best way to deal with them making any other potential strategies redundant.
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