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Missing Artillery types

RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
edited December 2020 in General Discussion
There's a lot of artillery variety in Warhammer including completely fantasy pieces that nevertheless provide variety to the unit class.

Despite that fact we are still missing a few iconic artillery types such as:

1. Culverin - a smaller caliber cannon with longer barrel. Key difference to a regular Cannon would be:
- Higher accuracy and projectile velocity
- Higher firing rate(x1.5) but much lower damage(x0.5)
- Faster towing and re-aligning speed
- *RoR variant with magical damage and homing projectiles

Perfect for character and artillery sniping as well as pressuring elite or monstrous infantry/cavalry since the shots aren't wasted in an overkill damage and come at a faster pace.

2. Howitzer - a bigger caliber cannon with shorter barrel able to shoot over smaller obstacles and friendly units. Key difference to a regular Cannon would be:
- Slower projectile speed and an overhead firing arc inbetween a cannon and a mortar
- Explosive damage component as the main source of damage
- Lesser range but higher potential damage output

Perfect for anti-infantry purpose especially against blobs. Bad at everything else due to lower projectile speed and less armour-piercing damage.

3. Mangonel/Onager - a torsion powered catapult with a scattershot projectile able to shoot over smaller obstacles and friendly units. Key difference to a regular Catapult would be:
- Overhead firing arc and lower range
- Non-explosive multishot projectile with bonus vs infantry and high area of effect
- Cheaper than Elven Bolt Throwers but has no single shot anti-large capability
- *RoR variant with explosive shots

Cheap anti-infantry alternative for those who haven't discovered gunpowder yet or happen to be friends with the Dawi. Incapable of dealing with Single Entities or structures unlike Catapults.


Just a bunch of examples from the top of my head. If you can think of other artillery types yet not featured in the game especially ones from the Tabletop please share!
Post edited by RazeAndBurn on

Comments

  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,349
    edited December 2020
    1. Part of dogs/ southern realms roster will come eventually
    2. Its in the game called queen bess
    3. Dwarf grudge throwers. Already in game.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
    saweendra said:

    1. Part of dogs/ southern realms roster will come eventually
    2. Its in the game called queen bess
    3. Dwarf grudge throwers. Already in game.

    1. Let's hope so!
    2. Queen bess is an SE arty. Those are meant to be a regular variant.
    3. My bad picking Trebs when there are Catapults as more direct comparison. However both Dwarven and Greenskin catapults fling solid projectiles. Think of an Age of Empires 2 kind of Mangonel.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    Where did you get the Howitzer's from? I don't think I've ever come across them in the source material (granted I don't look through the Empire Army Books much since most of their stuff is common knowledge).
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237
    The first (Culverin) seems a lot like the cannons used by the Deck Gunners.

    But the problem here is that CA usually will go with source material and work on original only if there's a need (in theory at least, since they're the same that dropped Sacred Kroxigors but when asked about adding more unit to Bretonnia they refused). I don't remember from various posts here or on reddit any race that had specifically one of those units in TT.

    It could still work for a Vampire Coast DLC, since A) they fit the gunpowder theme of 1 and 2, and B) are a decently original race. For Empire are kind of big NO since they have rn a pretty big arty roster, and the remaining units are mostly related to Ulric. Dwarfs, for how much i would like to since their roster is as big as a toothpick, still that their arty is pretty complete rn (except for unbalanced stats, but that's not a big deal) (plus what CA said about Bretonnia).

    Last thing, which i don't expect, but can always happen, is that CA, instead of adding more arty units to increase variety, they add instead switchable ammunitions.
  • ROMOBOY#7812ROMOBOY#7812 Registered Users Posts: 4,814
    I say they should allow (or make) cannons and hellblasters with grapeshot.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    Cathay > Chaos Dwarfs = Pain

  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
    elkapp said:

    The first (Culverin) seems a lot like the cannons used by the Deck Gunners.

    For Empire are kind of big NO since they have rn a pretty big arty roster, and the remaining units are mostly related to Ulric. Dwarfs, for how much i would like to since their roster is as big as a toothpick, still that their arty is pretty complete rn (except for unbalanced stats, but that's not a big deal) (plus what CA said about Bretonnia).


    Aye, there are hand held Culverins and Field Culverins. The Deck Gunners seems to be carrying the first ones. I was reffereing to a unit from Medieval 2 Total War.

    I wouldn't imagine Empire or Dwarfs getting those as they already have good artillery rosters, but these are the types of arty that are missing in the game and could potentially bring more diversity. Could be included as original units into Dogs of War or Estalia/Tilea rosters to avoid simple cannon monotony.
  • DeadpoolSW#7283DeadpoolSW#7283 Registered Users Posts: 3,151
    ROMOBOY said:

    I say they should allow (or make) cannons and hellblasters with grapeshot.

    Only if it's the ridiculously OP grapeshot/canister shot from Empire Total War.
    Nagash will rule again!

    Justice for Chaos Dwarfs, Araby, Albion, Amazons, Halflings, Nippon, Ind, Khuresh & the Hobgoblin Khanate!
  • ROMOBOY#7812ROMOBOY#7812 Registered Users Posts: 4,814

    ROMOBOY said:

    I say they should allow (or make) cannons and hellblasters with grapeshot.

    Only if it's the ridiculously OP grapeshot/canister shot from Empire Total War.
    It’ll be much less armor piercing damage and range. But a far better area of effect. If the hellblaster gets grapeshot, it should have more range than the cannon’s grapeshot; since the barrels are long and tight.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    Cathay > Chaos Dwarfs = Pain

  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
    edited December 2020
    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I say they should allow (or make) cannons and hellblasters with grapeshot.

    Only if it's the ridiculously OP grapeshot/canister shot from Empire Total War.
    It’ll be much less armor piercing damage and range. But a far better area of effect. If the hellblaster gets grapeshot, it should have more range than the cannon’s grapeshot; since the barrels are long and tight.
    Why would hellblaster get a grapeshot? Grapeshot and Canistershot rely on a higher caliber to deliver a bigger amount of projectiles. If anything it's gonna be a great cannon.

    Hellblaster already performs an anti-personel role, it just needs to stop clipping the edges of the unit's formation.
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I say they should allow (or make) cannons and hellblasters with grapeshot.

    Only if it's the ridiculously OP grapeshot/canister shot from Empire Total War.
    It’ll be much less armor piercing damage and range. But a far better area of effect. If the hellblaster gets grapeshot, it should have more range than the cannon’s grapeshot; since the barrels are long and tight.
    Why would hellblaster get a grapeshot? Grapeshot and Canistershot rely on a higher caliber to deliver a bigger amount of projectiles. If anything it's gonna be a great cannon.

    Hellblaster already performs an anti-personel role, it just needs to stop clipping the edges of the unit's formation.

    From an old post but i reply to the same problem.
    elkapp said:

    Ingr8 said:

    Well grapeshot would greatly reduce the AP effect... The Empire already has the Hellstorm for anti-light infantry so I am not sure what this would really add aside from a short range version. Would be fairly ineffective against heavy units as well

    Nonono that's not the point. What i was trying to say is that that unit right now is in a bad spot where in either anti-infantry and anti-large is surpassed by other units. For anti infantry is surpassed by hellstorm which are strong af long range and short range handgunner can finish them easily; for anti large is surpassed long range by cannons (though they lack a bit of damage, but still hvg range is terrible) and short range by handgunners, that technically deal a ton more damage and everything they focus fire is dead.

    Now, as i wrote above, buffing them with a straight buff would make the hvg too similar to an organ cannon. Now, since i really like race diversity, i thought that the best way to do it is to "push on the negatives" of the hvg, aka short range.

    Now, for balancing, i didn't really care if empire arty would be too anti-infantry, since the game don't give a ****. To make an example, lizardmen arty. They don't have any aoe stuff only direct fire piercing (stegadon) or just direct hit (bastiladon with solar engine). Obviously, LM for blobs can use other stuff like good terradons, or even magic. For the empire would be the same, where they excel at nuking infantry but are ok at dealing with large (something they already do tbh).

    For unit differentiation, hellstorm would be different form this hellblaster because hellstorm have good max range, but effectively terrible min range (except if you find a really good ground or you don't care to blow your infantry line, possibly both), while hellblaster would be a frontline unit, with range around 200-250, and work more like an op ratling but with slower reload. On damage type, i think is better to keep it highly ap, but remove the piercing effect, turning them into normal bullets but with the shieldbreaker ability.
  • ROMOBOY#7812ROMOBOY#7812 Registered Users Posts: 4,814

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I say they should allow (or make) cannons and hellblasters with grapeshot.

    Only if it's the ridiculously OP grapeshot/canister shot from Empire Total War.
    It’ll be much less armor piercing damage and range. But a far better area of effect. If the hellblaster gets grapeshot, it should have more range than the cannon’s grapeshot; since the barrels are long and tight.
    Why would hellblaster get a grapeshot? Grapeshot and Canistershot rely on a higher caliber to deliver a bigger amount of projectiles. If anything it's gonna be a great cannon.

    Hellblaster already performs an anti-personel role, it just needs to stop clipping the edges of the unit's formation.
    The same reason I use buckshot in my shotguns. And yeah it makes more sense for the great cannon. I’m just saying that if they did it for the hellblaster too.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    Cathay > Chaos Dwarfs = Pain

  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
    edited December 2020
    elkapp said:


    Now, for balancing, i didn't really care if empire arty would be too anti-infantry, since the game don't give a ****. To make an example, lizardmen arty. They don't have any aoe stuff only direct fire piercing (stegadon) or just direct hit (bastiladon with solar engine). Obviously, LM for blobs can use other stuff like good terradons, or even magic. For the empire would be the same, where they excel at nuking infantry but are ok at dealing with large (something they already do tbh).

    For unit differentiation, hellstorm would be different form this hellblaster because hellstorm have good max range, but effectively terrible min range (except if you find a really good ground or you don't care to blow your infantry line, possibly both), while hellblaster would be a frontline unit, with range around 200-250, and work more like an op ratling but with slower reload. On damage type, i think is better to keep it highly ap, but remove the piercing effect, turning them into normal bullets but with the shieldbreaker ability.


    Wait... You want it to be sort of an auto-shotgun with 9 round burst? That's sick!
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237

    elkapp said:


    Now, for balancing, i didn't really care if empire arty would be too anti-infantry, since the game don't give a ****. To make an example, lizardmen arty. They don't have any aoe stuff only direct fire piercing (stegadon) or just direct hit (bastiladon with solar engine). Obviously, LM for blobs can use other stuff like good terradons, or even magic. For the empire would be the same, where they excel at nuking infantry but are ok at dealing with large (something they already do tbh).

    For unit differentiation, hellstorm would be different form this hellblaster because hellstorm have good max range, but effectively terrible min range (except if you find a really good ground or you don't care to blow your infantry line, possibly both), while hellblaster would be a frontline unit, with range around 200-250, and work more like an op ratling but with slower reload. On damage type, i think is better to keep it highly ap, but remove the piercing effect, turning them into normal bullets but with the shieldbreaker ability.

    Wait... You want it to be sort of an auto-shotgun with 9 round burst? That's sick!
    Nono lol, the comparison with ratling guns was in relation with cannons, since cannons shoot only 1 projectile while hellblaster shoot 9 one after the other quickly.

    Though, if you want to put that way, i won't mind a giant dwarf gatling-like cannon (probably single entity) that shoot something like 20 organ gun projectiles each cycle with decent fire rate and good range. I know, it's dumb, but i like dumb things.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
    elkapp said:


    Nono lol, the comparison with ratling guns was in relation with cannons, since cannons shoot only 1 projectile while hellblaster shoot 9 one after the other quickly.

    Though, if you want to put that way, i won't mind a giant dwarf gatling-like cannon (probably single entity) that shoot something like 20 organ gun projectiles each cycle with decent fire rate and good range. I know, it's dumb, but i like dumb things.

    A Hellblaster that "blasts" buckshot from each barrel 3 at a time and a total of 9 in quick succession and then goes for a lengthy reload would really differentiate it from Organ Gun and Helstorm...
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237

    elkapp said:


    Nono lol, the comparison with ratling guns was in relation with cannons, since cannons shoot only 1 projectile while hellblaster shoot 9 one after the other quickly.

    Though, if you want to put that way, i won't mind a giant dwarf gatling-like cannon (probably single entity) that shoot something like 20 organ gun projectiles each cycle with decent fire rate and good range. I know, it's dumb, but i like dumb things.

    A Hellblaster that "blasts" buckshot from each barrel 3 at a time and a total of 9 in quick succession and then goes for a lengthy reload would really differentiate it from Organ Gun and Helstorm...
    The post i made was originally about the fact that in a meta build hvg are useless because there's better things.
    In theory the hvg is an organ gun but short range and deal more damage, though that's effectively no the case.
    Upgrading reload rate, range and damage would make the unit too similar to organ guns, so i thought i would have been better if the hvg was ever more short range and even more dps.
    The similarities with rockets ends when we consider the fact that rockets are useless in short range, while hvg with grapeshot work for mid and short range (mid and short for artillery standards obviously).
    Organ guns it differentiate from the premise.

    Honestly i don't find these differences too soft, neither lore inaccurate. But hey, if you have a better idea, drop it.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
    edited December 2020
    ROMOBOY said:

    But buckshot is the primary shot for the shotgun...

    Giving Great Cannon the Canister shot would make it be-all-end-all option.
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