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Frenzy correction; Immunity to psychology

TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 3,358
Immunity to psychology (Itp) is part of the frenzy ability.

However, frenzy was changed long ago from wavering to 50% leadership and this negates half of the effect of immunity to psychology aka the terrorprevention.

Because terror only triggers at a certain (low leadership) point but frenzy already terminates far earlier this weakens the ability.


So I´d suggest cutting immunity to psychology from frenzy and adding +8 leadership instead.
This would still negate the penalty from "fear" while also making the ability more useful for the undead, who are not suceptable to fear/ terror already.

OR

lowering the leadership requirement in such a way hat it includes the terror-trigger-point.

Comments

  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 191
    +8 leadership does more than just cancel out fear, it let's frenzy last longer as a whole, but maybe that helps make up for the immunity to terror.

    Other options could be to make the ability works in tiers. Tier one triggers at 50% which disables the combat buff. Tier 2 triggers at wavering which disables the TtP.

    You could also make frenzy work like the blessing of the Lady.

    Or you could have it disabled when losing combat decisively.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 899
    I think it's working fine at the moment.
  • TheKrakenmeisterTheKrakenmeister Registered Users Posts: 130
    edited December 2020
    Why should a leadership ability have a leadership trigger? It's all very confusing and needs to be scrapped completely imo. Give it immunity to psychology while charging or something like that.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,346

    Why should a leadership ability have a leadership trigger? It's all very confusing and needs to be scrapped completely imo. Give it immunity to psychology while charging or something like that.

    I think unit salready get +15LD when charging. So while charging, units are not going to terror route most of the time anyways.
  • TheKrakenmeisterTheKrakenmeister Registered Users Posts: 130

    Why should a leadership ability have a leadership trigger? It's all very confusing and needs to be scrapped completely imo. Give it immunity to psychology while charging or something like that.

    I think unit salready get +15LD when charging. So while charging, units are not going to terror route most of the time anyways.
    Units that are above 50% leadership have a tendency not to terror route as well XD
    Maybe winning combat? That's pretty rare already, maybe even or winning would be better.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,237
    edited December 2020
    I think freanzy should be like bretonnian blessing you have it until you flee once, than for undead they lose it if they go into -20LD once.
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 512

    I think freanzy should be like bretonnian blessing you have it until you flee once, than for undead they lose it if they go into -20LD once.

    This makes more sense to me.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819

    I think freanzy should be like bretonnian blessing you have it until you flee once, than for undead they lose it if they go into -20LD once.

    Sounds reasonable yea. That said, itp is useful vs the leadership penalties of fear and terror too so its not useless as it is. Doesn't feel like a priority thing atm.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 3,358

    Why should a leadership ability have a leadership trigger? It's all very confusing and needs to be scrapped completely imo. Give it immunity to psychology while charging or something like that.

    I think unit salready get +15LD when charging. So while charging, units are not going to terror route most of the time anyways.
    Units that are above 50% leadership have a tendency not to terror route as well XD
    Maybe winning combat? That's pretty rare already, maybe even or winning would be better.
    The point is that the current trigger auf frenzy makes it impossible to protect from terror routs.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,114
    The problem is that frenzy is mainly a +8 ma buff. So getting it for longer is a huge buff.

    I think freanzy should be like bretonnian blessing you have it until you flee once, than for undead they lose it if they go into -20LD once.

    Sounds reasonable yea. That said, itp is useful vs the leadership penalties of fear and terror too so its not useless as it is. Doesn't feel like a priority thing atm.
    The LD penalties mean **** before your unit reaches the point where they would flee. And by that point, your frenzy is no longer active.

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 3,358
    Pocman said:

    The problem is that frenzy is mainly a +8 ma buff. So getting it for longer is a huge buff.

    I think freanzy should be like bretonnian blessing you have it until you flee once, than for undead they lose it if they go into -20LD once.

    Sounds reasonable yea. That said, itp is useful vs the leadership penalties of fear and terror too so its not useless as it is. Doesn't feel like a priority thing atm.
    The LD penalties mean **** before your unit reaches the point where they would flee. And by that point, your frenzy is no longer active.

    I mean, with an actual terrorprevention the 8MA would also stay on longer.

    Certainly it wouldn t be as effective as it was wehn wavering was the deactivation trigger.
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 408
    edited December 2020
    Don't forget units with terror also automatically have fear, which is a -8 leadership debuff too. So ItP actually does give a small bonus, but it is mainly on factions with low leadership and frenzy - beastmen.

    *edit - I do like the idea of having ItP until broken for the first time.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870
    Frenzy is a good mechanic. You don't get the full benefit of ItP, but that makes it more interesting. Units that don't cause fear can be too frenzied to care about units that do, but they are not so berserk that they are immune to terror causing creatures, which have a massive psychological impact. The meat of the ability lies in the offensive buffs, anyway, which are great.

    I think freanzy should be like bretonnian blessing you have it until you flee once, than for undead they lose it if they go into -20LD once.

    This is a giant nerf for a lot of low LD units that really, really don't deserve nerfs.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 3,358
    blindjonn said:

    Frenzy is a good mechanic. You don't get the full benefit of ItP, but that makes it more interesting. Units that don't cause fear can be too frenzied to care about units that do, but they are not so berserk that they are immune to terror causing creatures, which have a massive psychological impact. The meat of the ability lies in the offensive buffs, anyway, which are great.

    I think freanzy should be like bretonnian blessing you have it until you flee once, than for undead they lose it if they go into -20LD once.

    This is a giant nerf for a lot of low LD units that really, really don't deserve nerfs.
    I mean the ItP is completely useless for undead on top of that, so I do think that a bit of ability hygiene is warranted.

    I mean, what s the point of having it if you cannot make full use of it?
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 408
    blindjonn said:


    I think freanzy should be like bretonnian blessing you have it until you flee once, than for undead they lose it if they go into -20LD once.

    This is a giant nerf for a lot of low LD units that really, really don't deserve nerfs.
    That's a massive buff, not a nerf.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,114
    blindjonn said:

    Frenzy is a good mechanic. You don't get the full benefit of ItP, but that makes it more interesting. Units that don't cause fear can be too frenzied to care about units that do, but they are not so berserk that they are immune to terror causing creatures, which have a massive psychological impact. The meat of the ability lies in the offensive buffs, anyway, which are great.

    I think freanzy should be like bretonnian blessing you have it until you flee once, than for undead they lose it if they go into -20LD once.

    This is a giant nerf for a lot of low LD units that really, really don't deserve nerfs.
    How??

  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870
    edited December 2020
    y4g3r said:

    That's a massive buff, not a nerf.

    Pocman said:

    How??

    If you lose Frenzy after your first broken state ("you have it until you flee once") then Frenzy units have permanently reduced offensive capability after their first rout. This would ruin the lategame performance for a huge amount of lower LD Frenzy units, which often have low stats to compensate the ability and are very likely to rout by midgame. I prefer it's current implementation.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,114
    blindjonn said:

    y4g3r said:

    That's a massive buff, not a nerf.

    Pocman said:

    How??

    If you lose Frenzy after your first broken state ("you have it until you flee once") then Frenzy units have permanently reduced offensive capability after their first rout. This would ruin the lategame performance for a huge amount of lower LD Frenzy units, which often have low stats to compensate the ability and are very likely to rout by midgame. I prefer it's current implementation.
    Which is exactly what happens now because it's incredibly strange for a routed unit to get more than 50% leadership back, and even if they get it, it will be at best for a couple seconds.

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 3,358
    Pocman said:

    blindjonn said:

    y4g3r said:

    That's a massive buff, not a nerf.

    Pocman said:

    How??

    If you lose Frenzy after your first broken state ("you have it until you flee once") then Frenzy units have permanently reduced offensive capability after their first rout. This would ruin the lategame performance for a huge amount of lower LD Frenzy units, which often have low stats to compensate the ability and are very likely to rout by midgame. I prefer it's current implementation.
    Which is exactly what happens now because it's incredibly strange for a routed unit to get more than 50% leadership back, and even if they get it, it will be at best for a couple seconds.

    Duh, depends. With abilities on the charge you can get over 20 back easy.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870
    Pocman said:

    blindjonn said:

    y4g3r said:

    That's a massive buff, not a nerf.

    Pocman said:

    How??

    If you lose Frenzy after your first broken state ("you have it until you flee once") then Frenzy units have permanently reduced offensive capability after their first rout. This would ruin the lategame performance for a huge amount of lower LD Frenzy units, which often have low stats to compensate the ability and are very likely to rout by midgame. I prefer it's current implementation.
    Which is exactly what happens now because it's incredibly strange for a routed unit to get more than 50% leadership back, and even if they get it, it will be at best for a couple seconds
    I'll watch my unit states more closely in the future to see if you're right, but I see Frenzy popping back up more frequently than that. Stuff like Battle Pilgrims would be much better with Lotus's suggestion, but I think stuff like Savage Orcs and feral units would be worse.
    TeNoSkill said:

    I mean the ItP is completely useless for undead on top of that, so I do think that a bit of ability hygiene is warranted.

    I mean, what s the point of having it if you cannot make full use of it?

    The entire Frenzy ability is useless on Flagellants, because Unbreakable means the stat buffs could just be folded into their statline for the same result. But Flagellants fight in a frenzied way, so it's appropriate.

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 3,358
    @blindjonn

    You are correct, the stats of frenzy on flagellants could just be baked into their regular statline.

    However, how many units are there that are unbreakable and have frenzy?

    So I do think it matters more then it doesn t and the changes I´m proposing are not hard to do.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,724
    edited December 2020

    I think it's working fine at the moment.

    It doesn't work right now, at all.

    Frenzied units are immune to psychology when at a high enough leadership to be immune to psychology. When at a low enough leadership to be affected by psychology, they no longer have immunity. Meaning it does nothing, meaning it does not work.
    blindjonn said:

    Frenzy is a good mechanic. You don't get the full benefit of ItP, but that makes it more interesting.

    You never get any benefit from immune to psychology because of Frenzy.

    I like the suggestions to have it removed if you route for the first time. Another could be have it removed if you spend X seconds at a lower leadership, or the unit is losing combat for a prolonged period of time.
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  • Spellbound55Spellbound55 Registered Users Posts: 157
    For this to be an issue you'd have to assume frenzy is meant to prevent terror routing. As is ItP being included means that a unit with frenzy is unlikely to lose the combat buffs for any reason other than taking damage, being flanked, or losing combat.

    Since most units with frenzy are not supposed to be reliable holding units and instead are damage dealers this mechanic creates a situation where units with frenzy are rewarded for being placed into winning match ups or being supported with leadership boosting abilities when in an unfavorable match up.

    To me this feels like it reflects the nature of the units themselves, bloodlusted warriors who fight hard until the tide turns at which point their courage falters. If there isn't a balance concern with the way frenzy behaves then I don't see a problem here.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,114

    For this to be an issue you'd have to assume frenzy is meant to prevent terror routing. As is ItP being included means that a unit with frenzy is unlikely to lose the combat buffs for any reason other than taking damage, being flanked, or losing combat.

    Since most units with frenzy are not supposed to be reliable holding units and instead are damage dealers this mechanic creates a situation where units with frenzy are rewarded for being placed into winning match ups or being supported with leadership boosting abilities when in an unfavorable match up.

    To me this feels like it reflects the nature of the units themselves, bloodlusted warriors who fight hard until the tide turns at which point their courage falters. If there isn't a balance concern with the way frenzy behaves then I don't see a problem here.

    The thing is that would work in the exact same way even without the ITP.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    Pocman said:


    For this to be an issue you'd have to assume frenzy is meant to prevent terror routing. As is ItP being included means that a unit with frenzy is unlikely to lose the combat buffs for any reason other than taking damage, being flanked, or losing combat.

    Since most units with frenzy are not supposed to be reliable holding units and instead are damage dealers this mechanic creates a situation where units with frenzy are rewarded for being placed into winning match ups or being supported with leadership boosting abilities when in an unfavorable match up.

    To me this feels like it reflects the nature of the units themselves, bloodlusted warriors who fight hard until the tide turns at which point their courage falters. If there isn't a balance concern with the way frenzy behaves then I don't see a problem here.

    The thing is that would work in the exact same way even without the ITP.

    Without itp ld would drop below 50% quicker near fear causing units though. Not huge, but is there a problem to fix here? Does all units with fenzy need a buff?
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,114

    Pocman said:


    For this to be an issue you'd have to assume frenzy is meant to prevent terror routing. As is ItP being included means that a unit with frenzy is unlikely to lose the combat buffs for any reason other than taking damage, being flanked, or losing combat.

    Since most units with frenzy are not supposed to be reliable holding units and instead are damage dealers this mechanic creates a situation where units with frenzy are rewarded for being placed into winning match ups or being supported with leadership boosting abilities when in an unfavorable match up.

    To me this feels like it reflects the nature of the units themselves, bloodlusted warriors who fight hard until the tide turns at which point their courage falters. If there isn't a balance concern with the way frenzy behaves then I don't see a problem here.

    The thing is that would work in the exact same way even without the ITP.

    Without itp ld would drop below 50% quicker near fear causing units though. Not huge, but is there a problem to fix here? Does all units with fenzy need a buff?

    Imho, it's just boring. And seeing how the Khorne thing in game three is giving its units frenzy, its a shame.


    As it is now, it could be substituted by a +5 ma buff.

    Imho, it would be much more tactically interesting if it was a relevant buff.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 1,387
    edited December 2020
    How is it not relevant? Frenzy isn't supposed to stop a terror route. Frenzy is supposed to stop terror from taking away frenzy when you are winning. It's a animalistic blood lust but not immune to truly terrifying circumstances.

    Frenzy units on TT lost their frenzy when they were routed... AKA terror routes are supposed to happen if you aren't winning, which is exactly how they occur via Alpha Strike... Successful Alpha Strike AKA you became the beta and lost your frenzy.

    I am not saying CA can't make it better, but I don't see what's not working.

    Frenzy always was a melee buff you could lose if you were routed. The psychological immunity was only a veneer of protection not a real deterrent. Stubborn and Fearless were the only truly capable TT creatures that could withstand terror and massive alpha strikes strikes. Cold blooded was a close second and easily superior to frenzy in holding power. I always hated Lizardmen. Still do. Cold blooded is way too reliable just like in Total War.
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