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A Long Overdue Nerf On Mortis Auras

ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 29,233
So I look on the after battle value generation and mortis auras, particularly on the Fey and the Plague Furnace, are raking in a ton of value...for just standing around and shoving some models once a in a while, just because they flay hundreds or even thousands of HP off of enemy units with just their cootie aura.

Another case of minimal investment leading to maximum payoff.

Definitely needs to be adjusted. Possible solutions:

-only units actually fighting the unit with the cootie aura get hurt

-the cootie aura gets a max target limitation like healing spells, so it can only effect 2-3 units at most, not all units that stand in its area of effect

-cootie auras are made into an active effect with max uses, like Skrolk's Staff of Corruption

-the cootie aura gets weaker with either the exerting unit's stamina or HP

I would make an exception to the OG cootie aura unit, the Mortis Engine, since that one doesn't have the same balance issues as the Fey or the Plague Furnace (the Fey is a tiny, fast target and the Plague Furnace can be easily protected by its own summons and ranged units).

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Comments

  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 289
    I think the bell damage is fine overall, just because of how big it is. If the animations were just a bit less wacky then i think it would fine. But Fey is the obvious problem. Right now I agree, she is like a Mortis engine with none of the drawbacks. I think maybe giving her a max amount of troops she can affect or nerfing her damage would be perfect. She has 2 physical resist auras when with a paladin plus huge magic resist from the unicorn(which also got a buff last patch).

    I hate how the best morits engine effect unit isnt even the mortis engine. Also I think the skaven warpshard armor guy is fine considering he is rarely brought and is relatively weak other than that item.
  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Registered Users Posts: 1,113
    I don't think if this suggestion even will be considered. what can you do when the balancer encourages braindead blob...two years ago,Fay was blob with 2 paladins,now,when I thought things would get better,but now Fay can blob with Gotrek and Felix lel.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 195
    Everyone's always so quick to point at the Fay, but has anyone even looked at our boi Gorst?

    Sure he's no where near as fast and his model is bigger, but he has 1700 more health, 10 more MD, 30 more armor, the highest stacking regen in the game, and he contributes more to blob fight with AoE buffs and Heals. Plus his mortis engine effect is technically better with more range and you can get all that plus healing for only 1100 points.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,233
    edited January 17
    User_Clue said:

    Everyone's always so quick to point at the Fay, but has anyone even looked at our boi Gorst?

    Sure he's no where near as fast and his model is bigger, but he has 1700 more health, 10 more MD, 30 more armor, the highest stacking regen in the game, and he contributes more to blob fight with AoE buffs and Heals. Plus his mortis engine effect is technically better with more range and you can get all that plus healing for only 1100 points.

    Him being that slow is exactly why he isn't a problem. The Fey can just bounce in and out of fights and evade a lot of incoming harm since he she can zip around the battlefield so quickly. And if she's on foot she can stack several protective auras to simply tank until she's drained thousands of HP with her aura.

    The Plague Furnace is a big target, but Skaven have better means to cover it than VCounts. Plus it can drop summons around itself and clear paths with the bound Pestilent Breath.

  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 195

    User_Clue said:

    Everyone's always so quick to point at the Fay, but has anyone even looked at our boi Gorst?

    Sure he's no where near as fast and his model is bigger, but he has 1700 more health, 10 more MD, 30 more armor, the highest stacking regen in the game, and he contributes more to blob fight with AoE buffs and Heals. Plus his mortis engine effect is technically better with more range and you can get all that plus healing for only 1100 points.

    Him being that slow is exactly why he isn't a problem. The Fey can just bounce in and out of fights and evade a lot of incoming harm since he she can zip around the battlefield so quickly. And if she's on foot she can stack several protective auras to simply tank until she's drained thousands of HP with her aura.

    The Plague Furnace is a big target, but Skaven have better means to cover it than VCounts. Plus it can drop summons around itself and clear paths with the bound Pestilent Breath.

    User_Clue said:

    Everyone's always so quick to point at the Fay, but has anyone even looked at our boi Gorst?

    Sure he's no where near as fast and his model is bigger, but he has 1700 more health, 10 more MD, 30 more armor, the highest stacking regen in the game, and he contributes more to blob fight with AoE buffs and Heals. Plus his mortis engine effect is technically better with more range and you can get all that plus healing for only 1100 points.

    Him being that slow is exactly why he isn't a problem. The Fey can just bounce in and out of fights and evade a lot of incoming harm since he she can zip around the battlefield so quickly. And if she's on foot she can stack several protective auras to simply tank until she's drained thousands of HP with her aura.

    The Plague Furnace is a big target, but Skaven have better means to cover it than VCounts. Plus it can drop summons around itself and clear paths with the bound Pestilent Breath.
    I won't deny there was a little sarcasm intended, because he was the only AoE damage aura that wasn't mentioned.
    That being said, you still shouldn't underestimate him. Even with a paladin guardian Aura, the Fay can only, at most, match Ghorst's health. On foot she only has an adjusted 4255 HP (with a paladin).

    Ghorst on his own is still tankier in a general sense and part of that comes down to the fact that he can come with 10 HP regen a second. If you don't need any fancy additions like magic, then the guy is only a 650 points mortis engine. The Fay with nothing but the mist is still 138 points more. The combo of her plus a paladin has to cost you at least 1350, at that wont get you any magic and it will have little mass with only 34 speed. Ghorst isn't as good but he's so much cheaper.

    For less than 2k points I can get Ghorst and a necromancer on a balefire cart. That includes healing, summons, the ability to shut down enemy mana regen while boosting my own, 6 Hp per second of AoE regen and buffs for units. That's at least 400 points less than a well equipped fay paladin combo with healing spells and arcane conduit.

    For 3k points total you could add a fully equipped Wight king or a naked mounted vampire with regen and a self heal to play body guard. That can be way more devastating in the right matchup than the more expensive fay double paladin build.


    Not saying he needs nerfs or anything, but he does deserve a little more love and use.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,845
    edited January 18
    Well i guess the point of this thread is to nerf the fay enchantress. Basically. And well plague furnace.

    I really wish they would reconsider their stance on bret dlc prior to that change.
    Even though her mortis aura is on pure damge out put lower than a regular mortis engine or even hellbrons sword or ghorst mortis aura.

    I guess as compensation for nerfs may be fay enchantress can get greater arcane conduit and or missile resist in her aura hopefully
    Post edited by saweendra on
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 1,651
    Feel bad for Brettonia lol


    They have such a tiny limp roster that it means nerfing a single character is already nerfing like half of their available strategy. XD


    Not saying Fay isn't potentially problematic, but what even is CA's rationale for leaving them so incomplete?
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,845

    Feel bad for Brettonia lol


    They have such a tiny limp roster that it means nerfing a single character is already nerfing like half of their available strategy. XD


    Not saying Fay isn't potentially problematic, but what even is CA's rationale for leaving them so incomplete?

    they exhausted all possible units for them which is utter BS ,

    because there is two units that are possible just from 6th edition and 5th edition excluding any unit champions or using unique characters as base to make new units.

    Not to mention literal units from last of their lore books , 8th edition rule book, end times . which is the court beneath,

    And their out law theme from White dwarf, rpg and 5th edition

    BS
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,233
    Bretonnia's viability doesn't hang on the Fey's ability to drain thousands of HP at little threat to herself.

  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,770
    Because bretonnia doesnt promote other wh universe aos or 40k
    They added zoats to WE because zoats returned to 40k

    The reason they added repanse because of sister of battle got new edition or something around the same time.

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,115

    Feel bad for Brettonia lol


    They have such a tiny limp roster that it means nerfing a single character is already nerfing like half of their available strategy. XD


    Not saying Fay isn't potentially problematic, but what even is CA's rationale for leaving them so incomplete?

    That they already have two more units, and one LL, than their 8th edtion armybook.

    That, plus FLC, so no money, plus the fact that is a race that was abandones even by GW.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,845
    Pocman said:

    Feel bad for Brettonia lol


    They have such a tiny limp roster that it means nerfing a single character is already nerfing like half of their available strategy. XD


    Not saying Fay isn't potentially problematic, but what even is CA's rationale for leaving them so incomplete?

    That they already have two more units, and one LL, than their 8th edtion armybook.

    That, plus FLC, so no money, plus the fact that is a race that was abandones even by GW.
    yes and they have content easily for two dlc, if army book completion was thing WE never should have gotten DLC and there shouldn't any hope for DE dlc .

    every other race has gotten plenty of units out side of their original list or army book, its not like CA is going to remove that , i disagree GW fully abandoned Brets they were building up to a big expansion with their RPG, army books and final lore books for court beneath .
    but just ran out of time since they pulled the plug on the warhammer fantasy. that's why it just became the main reason why Lady of the lake put motion the gears to end the world that was.

    bretonnia being flc was mistake by CA they could have easily held back do more research and should have made it dlc.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 1,651
    Pocman said:



    That, plus FLC, so no money, plus the fact that is a race that was abandones even by GW.

    So? How is that remotely relevant to anything at all outside of rationalizing leaving them shytty and unfinished?


    I didn't come here to play a dead Tabletop game with old plastic figures and dices. I'm here to play a pseudo-RTS made by a company unaffiliated with GW. A game that isn't just alive, buy singlehandedly keeping this dead IP in public consciousness.


    This is the tabletop. There are plenty of materials left to adapt. And only a fool would say otherwise
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 195
    Pocman said:

    Feel bad for Brettonia lol


    They have such a tiny limp roster that it means nerfing a single character is already nerfing like half of their available strategy. XD


    Not saying Fay isn't potentially problematic, but what even is CA's rationale for leaving them so incomplete?

    That they already have two more units, and one LL, than their 8th edtion armybook.

    That, plus FLC, so no money, plus the fact that is a race that was abandones even by GW.
    That reasoning doesn't hold up any more boss.

    Do you think Bladesingers were an actual unit in TT?? No they weren't, they were just a unit champion for wardancers. The same is true for aspiring champions, Dread knights, Giant Slayers, Outriders with grenade launchers, horsemasters, and ancient Kroxigors. Bretonnia had unit champions too.

    Factions like the Skaven, high elves, Wood elves, and I'm sure other have also received units from supplementary material. Bretonnia does have a few options there too.

    Factions like the Empire have units from editions like 4th that have been repurposed into new units like war wagons. Bretonnia had mounted squires in 5th. Give them a medium cav unit with 80ish speed, 60ish armor, crappy stats, and put some polearms in their hands for AP BvL. That would be a really useful and cheap unit to make. Make a unit of unmounted Yhomen who are a melee and range hybrid. That's what squires used to be so Bretonnia has room for it (plus it does exist as a unit champion (see above)). Hell give then a Yeoman sergeant hero while you're at it. Plenty of room for them considering characters are added and invented as needed too.

    Then they're are units like Silverin Guard, Bugman's rangers, war lions, knights of the blazing sun, ancient salamanders, sacred kroxigor, Stag knights, horned ones, Nehekhara horsemen, rangers, and probably more that I can't even think of. None of those units existed in Table Top, they were made up using varying levels of obscure lore.

    Saying Bratonnia can't have have more units because they didn't have them in 6th ed doesn't apply to any other faction in the game. Bretonnia being a FLC basically makes it a core race for both games, so that's not even a good excuse. DLC for them is DLC anyone who owns the game can purchase and use.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,845
    User_Clue said:

    Pocman said:

    Feel bad for Brettonia lol


    They have such a tiny limp roster that it means nerfing a single character is already nerfing like half of their available strategy. XD


    Not saying Fay isn't potentially problematic, but what even is CA's rationale for leaving them so incomplete?

    That they already have two more units, and one LL, than their 8th edtion armybook.

    That, plus FLC, so no money, plus the fact that is a race that was abandones even by GW.
    That reasoning doesn't hold up any more boss.

    Do you think Bladesingers were an actual unit in TT?? No they weren't, they were just a unit champion for wardancers. The same is true for aspiring champions, Dread knights, Giant Slayers, Outriders with grenade launchers, horsemasters, and ancient Kroxigors. Bretonnia had unit champions too.

    Factions like the Skaven, high elves, Wood elves, and I'm sure other have also received units from supplementary material. Bretonnia does have a few options there too.

    Factions like the Empire have units from editions like 4th that have been repurposed into new units like war wagons. Bretonnia had mounted squires in 5th. Give them a medium cav unit with 80ish speed, 60ish armor, crappy stats, and put some polearms in their hands for AP BvL. That would be a really useful and cheap unit to make. Make a unit of unmounted Yhomen who are a melee and range hybrid. That's what squires used to be so Bretonnia has room for it (plus it does exist as a unit champion (see above)). Hell give then a Yeoman sergeant hero while you're at it. Plenty of room for them considering characters are added and invented as needed too.

    Then they're are units like Silverin Guard, Bugman's rangers, war lions, knights of the blazing sun, ancient salamanders, sacred kroxigor, Stag knights, horned ones, Nehekhara horsemen, rangers, and probably more that I can't even think of. None of those units existed in Table Top, they were made up using varying levels of obscure lore.

    Saying Bratonnia can't have have more units because they didn't have them in 6th ed doesn't apply to any other faction in the game. Bretonnia being a FLC basically makes it a core race for both games, so that's not even a good excuse. DLC for them is DLC anyone who owns the game can purchase and use.
    well said !!!
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,178
    edited January 19
    User_Clue said:


    Ghorst on his own is still tankier

    And still die to peasant archer unit if you fail to shutdown it.
    I do like Ghorst. But 23 speed Lord with massive hitbox are pain to defend(i once had got kited by dawi that lacked good answer to him, cause dawi infantry are fast enough to retreat from him, so he cannot apply Mortis aura(basically you can retreat infantry unit that Ghorst try to charge, while rest of you troops keep fighting, lol)). Main issue of Fay are that she has tiny hitbox unlike other Mortis engines in game, with exception of Skaven engineer that got his Mortis aura damage halved for this reason. Plus her speed mean that she can escape almost any dangerous situations.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,365
    tank3487 said:

    User_Clue said:


    Ghorst on his own is still tankier

    And still die to peasant archer unit if you fail to shutdown it.
    I do like Ghorst. But 23 speed Lord with massive hitbox are pain to defend(i once had got kited by dawi that lacked good answer to him, cause dawi infantry are fast enough to retreat from him, so he cannot apply Mortis aura(basically you can retreat infantry unit that Ghorst try to charge, while rest of you troops keep fighting, lol)). Main issue of Fay are that she has tiny hitbox unlike other Mortis engines in game, with exception of Skaven engineer that got his Mortis aura damage halved for this reason. Plus her speed mean that she can escape almost any dangerous situations.
    I wish that ghorst had some more Missile resisit (maybe like Slann?) and also some sort of ability that increased speed of corpse carts + zombies only by 50% for some duration. This would put these units up to a whopping 34 speed for a small duration of time.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,363
    Agree with the general sentiment but god please stop saying cootie aura
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,178


    I wish that ghorst had some more Missile resisit (maybe like Slann?) and also some sort of ability that increased speed of corpse carts + zombies only by 50% for some duration. This would put these units up to a whopping 34 speed for a small duration of time.

    He is not that bad even now due to low price.
    But IMHO what can bring him to being comptetive are buff to his summon(i do not even take this spell if i pick Ghorst, due to how bad this summon are after summons rework). Right now it is worse than basic Raise Dead(or even strigoi summon) and much harder to use due to low speed of Ghorst. If range of his summon can be buffed by +50 for example it would bring Ghorst to competitive tier intstantly.

  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,580
    User_Clue said:

    Pocman said:

    Feel bad for Brettonia lol


    They have such a tiny limp roster that it means nerfing a single character is already nerfing like half of their available strategy. XD


    Not saying Fay isn't potentially problematic, but what even is CA's rationale for leaving them so incomplete?

    That they already have two more units, and one LL, than their 8th edtion armybook.

    That, plus FLC, so no money, plus the fact that is a race that was abandones even by GW.
    That reasoning doesn't hold up any more boss.

    Do you think Bladesingers were an actual unit in TT?? No they weren't, they were just a unit champion for wardancers. The same is true for aspiring champions, Dread knights, Giant Slayers, Outriders with grenade launchers, horsemasters, and ancient Kroxigors. Bretonnia had unit champions too.

    Factions like the Skaven, high elves, Wood elves, and I'm sure other have also received units from supplementary material. Bretonnia does have a few options there too.

    Factions like the Empire have units from editions like 4th that have been repurposed into new units like war wagons. Bretonnia had mounted squires in 5th. Give them a medium cav unit with 80ish speed, 60ish armor, crappy stats, and put some polearms in their hands for AP BvL. That would be a really useful and cheap unit to make. Make a unit of unmounted Yhomen who are a melee and range hybrid. That's what squires used to be so Bretonnia has room for it (plus it does exist as a unit champion (see above)). Hell give then a Yeoman sergeant hero while you're at it. Plenty of room for them considering characters are added and invented as needed too.

    Then they're are units like Silverin Guard, Bugman's rangers, war lions, knights of the blazing sun, ancient salamanders, sacred kroxigor, Stag knights, horned ones, Nehekhara horsemen, rangers, and probably more that I can't even think of. None of those units existed in Table Top, they were made up using varying levels of obscure lore.

    Saying Bratonnia can't have have more units because they didn't have them in 6th ed doesn't apply to any other faction in the game. Bretonnia being a FLC basically makes it a core race for both games, so that's not even a good excuse. DLC for them is DLC anyone who owns the game can purchase and use.
    What are Knights Errant if not a medium cav option???
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 195

    User_Clue said:

    Pocman said:

    Feel bad for Brettonia lol


    They have such a tiny limp roster that it means nerfing a single character is already nerfing like half of their available strategy. XD


    Not saying Fay isn't potentially problematic, but what even is CA's rationale for leaving them so incomplete?

    That they already have two more units, and one LL, than their 8th edtion armybook.

    That, plus FLC, so no money, plus the fact that is a race that was abandones even by GW.
    That reasoning doesn't hold up any more boss.

    Do you think Bladesingers were an actual unit in TT?? No they weren't, they were just a unit champion for wardancers. The same is true for aspiring champions, Dread knights, Giant Slayers, Outriders with grenade launchers, horsemasters, and ancient Kroxigors. Bretonnia had unit champions too.

    Factions like the Skaven, high elves, Wood elves, and I'm sure other have also received units from supplementary material. Bretonnia does have a few options there too.

    Factions like the Empire have units from editions like 4th that have been repurposed into new units like war wagons. Bretonnia had mounted squires in 5th. Give them a medium cav unit with 80ish speed, 60ish armor, crappy stats, and put some polearms in their hands for AP BvL. That would be a really useful and cheap unit to make. Make a unit of unmounted Yhomen who are a melee and range hybrid. That's what squires used to be so Bretonnia has room for it (plus it does exist as a unit champion (see above)). Hell give then a Yeoman sergeant hero while you're at it. Plenty of room for them considering characters are added and invented as needed too.

    Then they're are units like Silverin Guard, Bugman's rangers, war lions, knights of the blazing sun, ancient salamanders, sacred kroxigor, Stag knights, horned ones, Nehekhara horsemen, rangers, and probably more that I can't even think of. None of those units existed in Table Top, they were made up using varying levels of obscure lore.

    Saying Bratonnia can't have have more units because they didn't have them in 6th ed doesn't apply to any other faction in the game. Bretonnia being a FLC basically makes it a core race for both games, so that's not even a good excuse. DLC for them is DLC anyone who owns the game can purchase and use.
    What are Knights Errant if not a medium cav option???
    Heavy cav...
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,580
    edited January 20
    Interesting. I think Knights Errant fit the role of medium cavalry almost perfectly.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,845

    That means that Reiksguard is... Super Heavy cav? And Glade Riders are Medium cav

    they are they pay those other short peasents for armour , No noble born of bretonnia will stoop that low.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 195

    **That means that Reiksguard is... Super Heavy cav? And Glade Riders are Medium cav**

    Interesting. I think Knights Errant fit the role of medium cavalry almost perfectly.

    What about KE being classified as heavy cav with 80 armor imply that glade guard, with 15 amour, are medium cav?

    How do you personally classify light, medium, and heavy cav?

    KoTR, Cold ones, and silver helms only have 10 more amour. Would you consider them medium cav too? Does Bretonnia only have 1 heavy cav unit on their entire roster?

    I would consider Nehekhara Horsemen, wild riders, and Great Stags to be Medium cav. They have a medium amount or armor, and for the most part, their speed sits in between light and heavy cav.
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 408
    edited January 21
    From what you've said, you're basing your level of cav solely on armour then?

    KE hit significantly under KotR. They have less armour, significantly lower melee stats and charge bonus. Yeomen I would consider light cav, KE are definitely medium cav. KoTR, with their bonus vs Large, higher armour, charge bonus, all around stats are a higher class then them, and I would put them straddling the line of what it is to be considered for heavy cav, and still probably be high medium. And Silverhelms are also a high medium imo. QK and Grails are the true heavy cav of a cav heavy faction.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 1,651
    User_Clue said:

    **That means that Reiksguard is... Super Heavy cav? And Glade Riders are Medium cav**

    Interesting. I think Knights Errant fit the role of medium cavalry almost perfectly.

    What about KE being classified as heavy cav with 80 armor imply that glade guard, with 15 amour, are medium cav?

    How do you personally classify light, medium, and heavy cav?

    KoTR, Cold ones, and silver helms only have 10 more amour. Would you consider them medium cav too? Does Bretonnia only have 1 heavy cav unit on their entire roster?

    I would consider Nehekhara Horsemen, wild riders, and Great Stags to be Medium cav. They have a medium amount or armor, and for the most part, their speed sits in between light and heavy cav.
    It's probably faction based.


    By Brettonian standards, Knight Entrants really are their **** middle weight cavalry as that's where they sit.


    Brettonians are all about knights, so it's no surprise their middle infantry climbs close to others' weaker heavy cavalry.


    Look at Chaos Warriors, they're just mid-tier infantry, but they punch pretty close to some of the weaker elite infantries like Stormvermin and Trash Guard's
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 195
    y4g3r said:

    From what you've said, you're basing your level of cav solely on armour then?

    KE hit significantly under KotR. They have less armour, significantly lower melee stats and charge bonus. Yeomen I would consider light cav, KE are definitely medium cav. KoTR, with their bonus vs Large, higher armour, charge bonus, all around stats are a higher class then them, and I would put them straddling the line of what it is to be considered for heavy cav, and still probably be high medium. And Silverhelms are also a high medium imo. QK and Grails are the true heavy cav of a cav heavy faction.

    No. Armor AND speed.

    I was considering it more of a weight consideration, not a question of quality or tiering. Heavy cav is literally heavy due to the weight of their armor. That weight slows them down which effects their speed. Some Factions like Bretonnia, Vampires, and HE have uniquely qualified Cav that lets their Heavies go faster, but otherwise heavy cav is 60ish speed. Light cav have little amour so they weigh less which lets them go as fast as possible (90+ speed) Medium cav are in between. They have something like 40-60 armor and have high 70s to mid 80s speed. Again, Brets, Vamps, and Elves are somewhat different because they have a reason for their cav to be faster than normal.

    So generally speaking Light = 0-40 armor, 90+ speed
    Medium = 40-60 armor, 78-85 speed
    Heavy = 70-80+, 66ish speed unless otherwise justified (better "horses"/lighter armor)

    But even without that convoluted explanation, It's just a relationship of toughness and speed

    Doomfire Warlocks and Wild Riders are in the same general tier as Reiksguard, but I would never consider them Heavy. Empire Knights are barely better than KE, but I consider them to be firmly in the heavy category.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,580
    I think looking at just armour simplifies it a lot.

    If Wild Riders at 40 armour are medium cavalry, Errants have +40 armour and are in another tier of heavy cav, how do we classify Reiksguard at 120 armour?
    Especially as effectiveness of armour goes up as the value of armour increases. Then, there's also the impact. Heavy cavalry usually hits very hard.

    It might be just a matter of tiering, but if we go with most traditional tiers of light>medium>heavy, I think KE fit very nicely into role of medium cavalry.

    They are faster than most heavy cavalry, slower than most of medium cavalry, will generally easily defeat most light cavalry while they will get trounced by most heavy cavalry.
    Taking everything into account, I think we can safely say they medium cav, judging their stats and how they behave on the battlefield and how they perform against other units.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 195

    I think looking at just armour simplifies it a lot.

    If Wild Riders at 40 armour are medium cavalry, Errants have +40 armour and are in another tier of heavy cav, how do we classify Reiksguard at 120 armour?
    Especially as effectiveness of armour goes up as the value of armour increases. Then, there's also the impact. Heavy cavalry usually hits very hard.

    It might be just a matter of tiering, but if we go with most traditional tiers of light>medium>heavy, I think KE fit very nicely into role of medium cavalry.

    They are faster than most heavy cavalry, slower than most of medium cavalry, will generally easily defeat most light cavalry while they will get trounced by most heavy cavalry.
    Taking everything into account, I think we can safely say they medium cav, judging their stats and how they behave on the battlefield and how they perform against other units.

    I had points to address each of yours, but this doesn't have anything to do with the OG thread so I'll just leave it at this:

    Low<mid<high is a much more traditional way to tier things compared to light medium and heavy. That would be a better way to rate something based on its position in a food chain. I don't think I've ever personally seen someone use the term heavy to describe something's quality.

    The term heavy cavalry already has a real world historic meaning. It refers to cavalry that is heavily armored. Knights Errant with their chain barding and heavy chain mail/plate armor are the definition of heavy cavalry.

    Why ignore perfectly functional terminology just to instead use preexisting terms with an unrelated meaning?


    Heavy tanks aren't categorized that way because they're better than light tanks. They're categorized like that because their armor is literally heavier and thicker than light tanks.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,115
    In reality, medium cavalry mostly did not exist. And most of the examples you are using (KotR, etc.) are all heavy cav.


    Historically, the difference was between heavy (amored) and ligt (mostly unarmored), with the former being used for fighting, and the latter for scouting, screening and skirmishing, or at best, pursuing skirmishers.

    Armour was mostly an impediment for those missions, as it would tire the horse and the rider more quickly. So they simply would not wear it. On the other hand, if you intended to fight, you would wear as much armor as you could, always. And no matter how much you used, you would be considered heavy cav. The erfect example are the polish winged hussars, which did wear heavy armor on the chest and head, but no more, plus their horses did not wear barding: they are still cosnidered heavy cav.

    I guess there could be historical examples of "medium" cavalry, that were given minimum armor and equipment to give them flexibility and that could be used in both roles, but I don't think there is any in the game, besides, maybe, chaos horsemasters.

    In game terms, the only unit that can be considered medium cav would be wild riders and great stags, i think.



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