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Bladesingers

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  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 1,700

    Chaos going to get a complete rework in the next game. I doubt they're going to spend much time tweaking something that's going to be changed in a year.

    Rework =/= stronger
  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 776
    edited January 16

    tadakatsu said:

    manpersal said:

    The Bladesingers are just another garbage infantry that can't stand up to any elite infantry from other factions. I never used them in the campaign and I never will, they make no sense.

    You can argue if they were a relevant addition, but they're crazy powerful. Also, they're girls showing flesh. I thought that it was the only thing you cared about.
    They don't make sense. They die very quickly in close combat. It is impossible to play through them on high difficulty. The only combat-ready units are archers, hawk riders for sisters, sisters of thorns, dragons and ents. All infantry are just cannon fodder.
    They beat virtually every other elite infantry in a 1 on 1
    I checked this and it is not true. They lose to everyone in the vast majority of cases.
    thats false as stated by the guy you quoted in 1 vs 1 they rek nearly all elite infantry and the ones they dont win against its a very close call despite some of them costing a fair bit more to field
    This is not true, I tested them against different infantry, and they do more damage than the rest of the wood elf infantry, but due to their low armor, they are destroyed very quickly. Therefore, they do not make sense during the campaign. In network games, it is possible that they will be useful.
    More BS. There’s been numerous videos of them destroying elite armoured infantry, 3 units of Empire swordsmen..

    Stop talking BS.
    So I filmed their battle with the black orcs, of course they lost

    So.. you recorded a single battle and that’s enough for you?

    You need to stop wasting people’s time with your dumbAF BS.
    I have fought these battles with different armies, the result is the same. Wood elf infantry are useless
    when it comes to abilities it depends on what you as the player use and when and battle difficulty as bladesingers beat most everything on normal difficulty which is the only one with no cheats for ai and no buffs for player aka the only difficulty for an accurate test. in campaign it also depends on if your lord has buffs for your army or not but i can assure you bladesingers are very strong against anything that isnt a cav or monster or archer. i will send several videos to show what happens when no abilities are used in order to prove that on their own merits bladesingers beat most everything the rest comes down to the difficulty and the player
  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 4,308
    In an even setting, meaning not in campaign with applicable difficulty modifiers and boosts, Bladesingers excel in almost any infantry fight.

    That does not make them overpowered. They get shot to death easy, magic deletes them, cav run them over without stopping to even hit them on their way through, and if they receive the blunt end of a high charge they feel it. They cost an extreme amount, so much so even in infantry fights they'll struggle to make up cost before just straight up running out of health. The one exception to all this, is when they swing into armored elite infantry. Specifically Great Weapon variants.

    So White Lions, Black Orcs, Chosen with Great Weapons, Swordmasters, Greatswords, Foot Squires, Grave Guard with Greatweapons, basically the entire Dwarf roster except Slayers, Executioners, Temple Guard, Stormvermin (lol), Depth Guard, Marauder Champions with Great Weapons, etc. These are all targets that the Bladesingers want to trade into.
  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 776

    tadakatsu said:

    manpersal said:

    The Bladesingers are just another garbage infantry that can't stand up to any elite infantry from other factions. I never used them in the campaign and I never will, they make no sense.

    You can argue if they were a relevant addition, but they're crazy powerful. Also, they're girls showing flesh. I thought that it was the only thing you cared about.
    They don't make sense. They die very quickly in close combat. It is impossible to play through them on high difficulty. The only combat-ready units are archers, hawk riders for sisters, sisters of thorns, dragons and ents. All infantry are just cannon fodder.
    They beat virtually every other elite infantry in a 1 on 1
    I checked this and it is not true. They lose to everyone in the vast majority of cases.
    thats false as stated by the guy you quoted in 1 vs 1 they rek nearly all elite infantry and the ones they dont win against its a very close call despite some of them costing a fair bit more to field
    This is not true, I tested them against different infantry, and they do more damage than the rest of the wood elf infantry, but due to their low armor, they are destroyed very quickly. Therefore, they do not make sense during the campaign. In network games, it is possible that they will be useful.
    More BS. There’s been numerous videos of them destroying elite armoured infantry, 3 units of Empire swordsmen..

    Stop talking BS.
    So I filmed their battle with the black orcs, of course they lost

    So.. you recorded a single battle and that’s enough for you?

    You need to stop wasting people’s time with your dumbAF BS.
    I have fought these battles with different armies, the result is the same. Wood elf infantry are useless
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 21,090
    Off topic and personal comments posts, including several quoting with a response. Folks, please refrain from including inappropriate remarks in your rebuttal posts.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,302
    Helhound said:

    In an even setting, meaning not in campaign with applicable difficulty modifiers and boosts, Bladesingers excel in almost any infantry fight.

    That does not make them overpowered. They get shot to death easy, magic deletes them, cav run them over without stopping to even hit them on their way through, and if they receive the blunt end of a high charge they feel it. They cost an extreme amount, so much so even in infantry fights they'll struggle to make up cost before just straight up running out of health. The one exception to all this, is when they swing into armored elite infantry. Specifically Great Weapon variants.

    So White Lions, Black Orcs, Chosen with Great Weapons, Swordmasters, Greatswords, Foot Squires, Grave Guard with Greatweapons, basically the entire Dwarf roster except Slayers, Executioners, Temple Guard, Stormvermin (lol), Depth Guard, Marauder Champions with Great Weapons, etc. These are all targets that the Bladesingers want to trade into.

    Dwarves have magic resistance though

    But yes they are pretty well balanced and finally an elite infantry for the wood elves, wildwood rangers are pretty bad
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 4,308
    lucibuis said:

    Helhound said:

    In an even setting, meaning not in campaign with applicable difficulty modifiers and boosts, Bladesingers excel in almost any infantry fight.

    That does not make them overpowered. They get shot to death easy, magic deletes them, cav run them over without stopping to even hit them on their way through, and if they receive the blunt end of a high charge they feel it. They cost an extreme amount, so much so even in infantry fights they'll struggle to make up cost before just straight up running out of health. The one exception to all this, is when they swing into armored elite infantry. Specifically Great Weapon variants.

    So White Lions, Black Orcs, Chosen with Great Weapons, Swordmasters, Greatswords, Foot Squires, Grave Guard with Greatweapons, basically the entire Dwarf roster except Slayers, Executioners, Temple Guard, Stormvermin (lol), Depth Guard, Marauder Champions with Great Weapons, etc. These are all targets that the Bladesingers want to trade into.

    Dwarves have magic resistance though

    But yes they are pretty well balanced and finally an elite infantry for the wood elves, wildwood rangers are pretty bad
    Dwarfs may have magic resistance but it doesn't save them. The problem most dwarf infantry face is relatively low kill potential. Slayers, sort of Hammers don't have this problem, but most won't be able to take advantage of the relatively squishy nature of Bladesingers before they are inevitably murdered by them. Ironbreakers can blow them up, so that helps.

    Wildwood Rangers on the other end, don't suck. Just extremely specific now. They best succeed hiding out in the woodline guarding against large targets. Monsters preferably, but ill microed cav work too. For how much they cost they hit significantly harder than most and are quite resilient due to the welfs bonuses in a treeline. Outside a woodline they struggle.
  • General_HijaltiGeneral_Hijalti Registered Users Posts: 2,692

    manpersal said:

    The Bladesingers are just another garbage infantry that can't stand up to any elite infantry from other factions. I never used them in the campaign and I never will, they make no sense.

    You can argue if they were a relevant addition, but they're crazy powerful. Also, they're girls showing flesh. I thought that it was the only thing you cared about.
    They don't make sense. They die very quickly in close combat. It is impossible to play through them on high difficulty. The only combat-ready units are archers, hawk riders for sisters, sisters of thorns, dragons and ents. All infantry are just cannon fodder.
    They beat virtually every other elite infantry in a 1 on 1
    I checked this and it is not true. They lose to everyone in the vast majority of cases.
    Press X to Doubt

  • General_HijaltiGeneral_Hijalti Registered Users Posts: 2,692

    tadakatsu said:

    manpersal said:

    The Bladesingers are just another garbage infantry that can't stand up to any elite infantry from other factions. I never used them in the campaign and I never will, they make no sense.

    You can argue if they were a relevant addition, but they're crazy powerful. Also, they're girls showing flesh. I thought that it was the only thing you cared about.
    They don't make sense. They die very quickly in close combat. It is impossible to play through them on high difficulty. The only combat-ready units are archers, hawk riders for sisters, sisters of thorns, dragons and ents. All infantry are just cannon fodder.
    They beat virtually every other elite infantry in a 1 on 1
    I checked this and it is not true. They lose to everyone in the vast majority of cases.
    thats false as stated by the guy you quoted in 1 vs 1 they rek nearly all elite infantry and the ones they dont win against its a very close call despite some of them costing a fair bit more to field
    This is not true, I tested them against different infantry, and they do more damage than the rest of the wood elf infantry, but due to their low armor, they are destroyed very quickly. Therefore, they do not make sense during the campaign. In network games, it is possible that they will be useful.
    More BS. There’s been numerous videos of them destroying elite armoured infantry, 3 units of Empire swordsmen..

    .
    So I filmed their battle with the black orcs, of course they lost

    For a start you had the generals in there messing things up. For seconds you had units being flanked and multiple coming together. That's not a 1 on 1 test. Or even a good test in general.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,480
    Bladesingers are overtuned, but they are much closer to what wardancers should be than the normal wardancer units.
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 344
    They are not even worth getting in campaign, infantry is hardly what's going to kill you. Bladesingers excell at killing the unit type that has the most counters in campaign. They being very good in such a situation and niche. To each their own. But if you want to go around having fun, even though you know you hamstrung yourself it is fine.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,302
    Helhound said:

    lucibuis said:

    Helhound said:

    In an even setting, meaning not in campaign with applicable difficulty modifiers and boosts, Bladesingers excel in almost any infantry fight.

    That does not make them overpowered. They get shot to death easy, magic deletes them, cav run them over without stopping to even hit them on their way through, and if they receive the blunt end of a high charge they feel it. They cost an extreme amount, so much so even in infantry fights they'll struggle to make up cost before just straight up running out of health. The one exception to all this, is when they swing into armored elite infantry. Specifically Great Weapon variants.

    So White Lions, Black Orcs, Chosen with Great Weapons, Swordmasters, Greatswords, Foot Squires, Grave Guard with Greatweapons, basically the entire Dwarf roster except Slayers, Executioners, Temple Guard, Stormvermin (lol), Depth Guard, Marauder Champions with Great Weapons, etc. These are all targets that the Bladesingers want to trade into.

    Dwarves have magic resistance though

    But yes they are pretty well balanced and finally an elite infantry for the wood elves, wildwood rangers are pretty bad
    Dwarfs may have magic resistance but it doesn't save them. The problem most dwarf infantry face is relatively low kill potential. Slayers, sort of Hammers don't have this problem, but most won't be able to take advantage of the relatively squishy nature of Bladesingers before they are inevitably murdered by them. Ironbreakers can blow them up, so that helps.

    Wildwood Rangers on the other end, don't suck. Just extremely specific now. They best succeed hiding out in the woodline guarding against large targets. Monsters preferably, but ill microed cav work too. For how much they cost they hit significantly harder than most and are quite resilient due to the welfs bonuses in a treeline. Outside a woodline they struggle.
    exactly, whats the point of WR outside of trees? I don't see any. And within threes, all the infantry gets bonuses, not just them.

    I think they need a rework, maybe make them the most armoured infantry unit for WE? as of now they are useless except maybe units with magic resistance
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,994
    Emrysor said:

    They are not even worth getting in campaign, infantry is hardly what's going to kill you. Bladesingers excell at killing the unit type that has the most counters in campaign. They being very good in such a situation and niche. To each their own. But if you want to go around having fun, even though you know you hamstrung yourself it is fine.

    and thats because campaign balance is taboo word in TWW.

    as for blade dancers i just don't really see the point of them in the WE roster they would have been better served with literally any other unit. aka chariots or shape shifters , spites similar to fell bat type unit.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 4,048
    edited January 18
    saweendra said:

    Emrysor said:

    They are not even worth getting in campaign, infantry is hardly what's going to kill you. Bladesingers excell at killing the unit type that has the most counters in campaign. They being very good in such a situation and niche. To each their own. But if you want to go around having fun, even though you know you hamstrung yourself it is fine.

    and thats because campaign balance is taboo word in TWW.

    as for blade dancers i just don't really see the point of them in the WE roster they would have been better served with literally any other unit. aka chariots or shape shifters , spites similar to fell bat type unit.
    On TT they were the unit champion for wardancers and had stats better than Chosen. It's not to hard to believe that there's a few exceptionally skilled and elite swordsmen in a unit of lesser swordsmen that can overcome several better armed and armored combatants before eventually being struck down themselves, that's basically what most lords and heroes are, though on a bigger scale after all. It's much, much more difficult to believe that there are thousands of scantily clad swordsmen, er... women, that can be recruited en masse to butcher hordes of extremely better armed and armored battalions of Swordmasters, Chosen and Black Orcs.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    Bring back proper naval battles CA!!!
    Me when I see a LL character implemented as a LH.

  • Spellbound55Spellbound55 Registered Users Posts: 165
    This thread went places. Anyway, to pointlessly chime in Bladesingers seem pretty well balanced and highlight the elven tendency to have "super elite" variants of every unit class. Bladesingers, Swordmasters, and Executioners are all super elite armor piercing murder infantry, though they have slightly different focuses, being the most flexible killers, the most survivable, and the most murdery respectively. While they aren't directly from the tabletop I don't see how Bladesingers clash with the themes or army design philosophy.

    As to balance, people seem to think that unit design is a vacuum, where a unit at X cost should be equal to every other unit with X cost. What people are forgetting is that specialized units pay a price in one area to excel in another. Bladesingers are the most specialized unit in their class bar none. They sacrifice most of their defensive capacities to be murder machines. They have 15 armor, they have no missile block chance, and they have no defensive buffs of any kind. What they do have is pretty good stats, the ability to trade ap for higher base damage, and a bonus vs infantry. Swordmasters and Executioners have worse base stats but are miles ahead in damage mitigation and are comparable in melee attack due to having a stronger bonus vs infantry. In fact in terms of damage both SMs (50 damage) and EXs (64 damage) hit harder than BSs (44 damage, 59 with Whirling death active). The fact that any of these units can punch up into Chosen isn't surprising since Chosen are consistently effective against a wide variety of targets, including non-infantry. Chosen are less effective against infantry because they hit way harder against anything that isn't infantry.

    Really looking at their stats I'd argue the real strength of the Bladesingers is their high melee defense which makes them deceptively tanky in melee specifically, though against other units who can hang in melee with them (basically just chosen with shields and swordmasters for half of their health) you see a more mixed performance. Obviously missiles are a huge counter that is substantially less effective against Swordmasters and Executioners.

    I will say Bladesingers do make wildwood rangers feel a tad redundant, apart from the dwarf matchup, but that can be fixed pretty easily. Just slap a charge defense against large on the wildwood rangers and they'll perform decently against large units given their frankly bonkers melee attack, while still being a decent threat to infantry.

    TLDR: Bladesingers match the hyper elite theme of elves and aren't unreasonably powerful by cost. If you wanted another unit I can't argue your taste is wrong, but the units perform well within expectations for their cost and the idea they are either OP or UP isn't reflected by the stats when compared to units of similar cost and role.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,302

    This thread went places. Anyway, to pointlessly chime in Bladesingers seem pretty well balanced and highlight the elven tendency to have "super elite" variants of every unit class. Bladesingers, Swordmasters, and Executioners are all super elite armor piercing murder infantry, though they have slightly different focuses, being the most flexible killers, the most survivable, and the most murdery respectively. While they aren't directly from the tabletop I don't see how Bladesingers clash with the themes or army design philosophy.

    As to balance, people seem to think that unit design is a vacuum, where a unit at X cost should be equal to every other unit with X cost. What people are forgetting is that specialized units pay a price in one area to excel in another. Bladesingers are the most specialized unit in their class bar none. They sacrifice most of their defensive capacities to be murder machines. They have 15 armor, they have no missile block chance, and they have no defensive buffs of any kind. What they do have is pretty good stats, the ability to trade ap for higher base damage, and a bonus vs infantry. Swordmasters and Executioners have worse base stats but are miles ahead in damage mitigation and are comparable in melee attack due to having a stronger bonus vs infantry. In fact in terms of damage both SMs (50 damage) and EXs (64 damage) hit harder than BSs (44 damage, 59 with Whirling death active). The fact that any of these units can punch up into Chosen isn't surprising since Chosen are consistently effective against a wide variety of targets, including non-infantry. Chosen are less effective against infantry because they hit way harder against anything that isn't infantry.

    Really looking at their stats I'd argue the real strength of the Bladesingers is their high melee defense which makes them deceptively tanky in melee specifically, though against other units who can hang in melee with them (basically just chosen with shields and swordmasters for half of their health) you see a more mixed performance. Obviously missiles are a huge counter that is substantially less effective against Swordmasters and Executioners.

    I will say Bladesingers do make wildwood rangers feel a tad redundant, apart from the dwarf matchup, but that can be fixed pretty easily. Just slap a charge defense against large on the wildwood rangers and they'll perform decently against large units given their frankly bonkers melee attack, while still being a decent threat to infantry.

    TLDR: Bladesingers match the hyper elite theme of elves and aren't unreasonably powerful by cost. If you wanted another unit I can't argue your taste is wrong, but the units perform well within expectations for their cost and the idea they are either OP or UP isn't reflected by the stats when compared to units of similar cost and role.

    Well said, wood elves we’re missing mg a tier 5 infantry

    Regarding wr, making them good against large would overlap with wardancers spears . I’d give them more armour tbh
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,115
    The only way of solving the WR v bladesinger problem is either giving a small amount of armour to WR, or give either of them a niche such as vanguard, stalk, or something like that.

    Any other solution will make them overlap with other units such as speardancers or regular wardancers.


  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,302
    Pocman said:

    The only way of solving the WR v bladesinger problem is either giving a small amount of armour to WR, or give either of them a niche such as vanguard, stalk, or something like that.

    Any other solution will make them overlap with other units such as speardancers or regular wardancers.


    Mmmhh not small, I’d give them 100 armour else they remain useless

    High armour, high melee attack, low melee defence would make them different
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • philosofoolphilosofool Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 514
    As I was attacked by 20 Beastmen today, I noticed that Bladesinger don't suck:

    Notice that the lord is rank 3; they had zero campaign buffs except Resplendance of Luminecence.
  • philosofoolphilosofool Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 514
    I think the big difference between rangers and bladesingers is 50 per turn cost, or 300 in MP. They aren't in the same price class. Saying one makes the other obsolete is like saying that Wildwood Riders with Shields are obsolete because of Great Stag Knights.

    2 bladesingers = 2 wild wood rangers + 1 glade guard with starfire shafts - 50, which strikes me as about right.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,302

    As I was attacked by 20 Beastmen today, I noticed that Bladesinger don't suck:

    Notice that the lord is rank 3; they had zero campaign buffs except Resplendance of Luminecence.

    what kind of messy army composition is this?
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,302

    I think the big difference between rangers and bladesingers is 50 per turn cost, or 300 in MP. They aren't in the same price class. Saying one makes the other obsolete is like saying that Wildwood Riders with Shields are obsolete because of Great Stag Knights.

    2 bladesingers = 2 wild wood rangers + 1 glade guard with starfire shafts - 50, which strikes me as about right.

    but in campaign because of how the system works, it's always better ot have top tier units and few armies than more armies and cheaper units
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 9,326
    Bliss said:

    Chosen GW are the best target for bladesingers. The whole comparison BS / Chosen GW / Chosen (shields) topic has already been discussed in an other thread.

    Their dance is to shift their balance in way the WE roster / philosophy doesn't allow it : having a unit that will perform vs any Elite infantry unit without MR (often cost effective, and fast damage output in general) and fast but very vulnerable vs missiles and cav (missile cav included). Without this dance, they would be cost-effective only vs heavy armored infantry which no one brings vs WE. It's designed to be one of the ultimate melee damage dealer anti-infantry unit, considering their huge weaknesses. They pay for that versatility : no armor and lowish HP.


    Btw, you get far better results with regular chosen (1250) vs Bladesingers than Chosen GW (1450).

    This. The favoured prey for Bladesingers is melee infantry that rely on high AP damage (which doesn't matter against lightly armoured Bladesingers) for their effectiveness. Guess which category Chosen GW fit into?

    Chosen with shields are about the same price, and do well against Bladesingers. They also do well against things that are good at killing Bladesingers, particularly things like low-AP missiles, cavalry, chariots, and what few low-AP monsters there are in the game.

    Keep in mind that in Games Workshop's eyes, specialisation is an elf trait just as much as being quality over quantity, relatively low durability, and high DPS. Bladesingers pretty much epitomise this - they're expensive glass cannons that are specialised in fighting AP melee infantry.
  • philosofoolphilosofool Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 514
    lucibuis said:

    As I was attacked by 20 Beastmen today, I noticed that Bladesinger don't suck:

    Notice that the lord is rank 3; they had zero campaign buffs except Resplendance of Luminecence.

    what kind of messy army composition is this?
    TL;DR: I just recruited that lord and haven’t finished recruiting his army.

    Full Story: I got the dilemma that boosts recruit rank for Bladesingers, so I decided to recruit that lord and take advantage. While they were recruiting, Foreboumd declared war so I moved him to Vaul’s Anvil for an ambush. That worked, then Beastmen attacked me when my army was revealed. So it’s an incomplete army that has been a lot of fun so far.
  • philosofoolphilosofool Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 514
    lucibuis said:

    I think the big difference between rangers and bladesingers is 50 per turn cost, or 300 in MP. They aren't in the same price class. Saying one makes the other obsolete is like saying that Wildwood Riders with Shields are obsolete because of Great Stag Knights.

    2 bladesingers = 2 wild wood rangers + 1 glade guard with starfire shafts - 50, which strikes me as about right.

    but in campaign because of how the system works, it's always better ot have top tier units and few armies than more armies and cheaper units
    This is true. But I thought the complainant with respect to Rangers was that they were somehow uniquely pointless because of a higher cost unit. They are, at some point, outclassed in campaign but that’s hardly a unique situation. DLC frequently power creep and reduce campaign utility of older units.
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