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Lore Question: Greenskins and Chaos

HermodrHermodr Registered Users Posts: 139
So... the GS must be the most belligerent race in the warhammer fantasy setting, always seeking something to destroy, kill or pillage, because of that, how come that they never called a Waaagh!!! to invade the Chaos Realm and possibly get the Ultimate "proper fight"?? Is there a lore reason or GW just didn't care enough? I mean, I can be wrong, but I know of characters like dwarfs and lizardmen that invade de Chaos Realm, but never GS...

Comments

  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,810
    Greenskins are not a unifed force by any means. Many have invaded the wastes, Grimgro spent a long time there fighting chaos champions, but no huge invasion went there that we know of. For the greenskins, they like toppling things like cities and such, and the wastes don't offer much in terms of that. Besides, the wastes are so inhospitable and filled with chaos servants and monsters that even greenskins would not survive there for long.

    The realm of chaos would be completely inaccesible to them, most greenskins probably don't know it exists. In theory a huge Waaagh!!! could reach one of the polar gates, but it would have to be the biggest in all of history. Consider that even the greatest Waaagh!!!s failed to destroy the empire, reaching the polar gates would be much more difficult.

    In general, very few mortals have been able to enter, and rarely by means available to greenskins. Grimnir walked to the gates themselves, but he is basicly a god and not comparable to any characters in the present of the setting. Oxyotl survived there for a long time, but largely through stealth and assassination and not because he was stronger than the all the deamons. And no army of any race has ever entered there, except for chaos worshippers who might have been invited.
  • ROMOBOYROMOBOY Registered Users Posts: 4,369
    ^Beat me to it.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    Cathay > Chaos Dwarfs = Pain

  • HermodrHermodr Registered Users Posts: 139

    Greenskins are not a unifed force by any means. Many have invaded the wastes, Grimgro spent a long time there fighting chaos champions, but no huge invasion went there that we know of. For the greenskins, they like toppling things like cities and such, and the wastes don't offer much in terms of that. Besides, the wastes are so inhospitable and filled with chaos servants and monsters that even greenskins would not survive there for long.

    The realm of chaos would be completely inaccesible to them, most greenskins probably don't know it exists. In theory a huge Waaagh!!! could reach one of the polar gates, but it would have to be the biggest in all of history. Consider that even the greatest Waaagh!!!s failed to destroy the empire, reaching the polar gates would be much more difficult.

    In general, very few mortals have been able to enter, and rarely by means available to greenskins. Grimnir walked to the gates themselves, but he is basicly a god and not comparable to any characters in the present of the setting. Oxyotl survived there for a long time, but largely through stealth and assassination and not because he was stronger than the all the deamons. And no army of any race has ever entered there, except for chaos worshippers who might have been invited.

    I see. Thank you for the answer!! Very Insteresting. Another thing but about the polar gates? Is there one too in the south pole right? But I always find very few mentions like who fights the hordes that came from there?? Lizardmen?? Tomb Kings of the South Lands? Somebody else?
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 794
    Mostly because they wouldn't be aware. Afaik the farthest they've ever gotten was Grimgor during one of his campaigns where he spent a while camping at the edge of the northern chaos wastes and beating the ever-living crap out of the local tribes, but generally speaking, there's no attractive targets on the way and Greenskins just wouldn't have a reason to go all the way north, if instead they could attack the empire, dwarfs, chaos dwarfs, Ogres, or basically every single other place.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,091




    Greenskins have no real understanding of the warp. They barely might be able to read a map showcasing the Old World, so how would they know about passing towards north and finding a portal to the Realm of Chaos? They usually attack what they know is around them. Or what they know lies in their path. WAAAGH!s often are just pushing in a vague direction, destroying simply everything in their path. Hell, look at Grom. His shaman told him about some vast new lands and riches beyond the Old World and he set sail, while most of his crew probably did not know how to man a ship in the first place.
    Even if a WAAAGH! would run north, the power of the WAAAGH is that it attracts greenskins from everywhere to first get momentum and then keeping it. Going north would mean leaving the rich provinces full of greenskin tribes behind. The further north, the harder it will be to grow stronger or even recruit enough new tribes to refill casualties.
    if by a miracle a portion of the WAAAGH! would reach the collapsed gate and enter the Realm of Chaos, they would just be cut off. While Daemons in their home have every advantage and are at their strongest. No race of the Warhammer World should be able to win a war in the Realm of Chaos.

    -----Red Dox
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,810
    Hermodr said:

    Greenskins are not a unifed force by any means. Many have invaded the wastes, Grimgro spent a long time there fighting chaos champions, but no huge invasion went there that we know of. For the greenskins, they like toppling things like cities and such, and the wastes don't offer much in terms of that. Besides, the wastes are so inhospitable and filled with chaos servants and monsters that even greenskins would not survive there for long.

    The realm of chaos would be completely inaccesible to them, most greenskins probably don't know it exists. In theory a huge Waaagh!!! could reach one of the polar gates, but it would have to be the biggest in all of history. Consider that even the greatest Waaagh!!!s failed to destroy the empire, reaching the polar gates would be much more difficult.

    In general, very few mortals have been able to enter, and rarely by means available to greenskins. Grimnir walked to the gates themselves, but he is basicly a god and not comparable to any characters in the present of the setting. Oxyotl survived there for a long time, but largely through stealth and assassination and not because he was stronger than the all the deamons. And no army of any race has ever entered there, except for chaos worshippers who might have been invited.

    I see. Thank you for the answer!! Very Insteresting. Another thing but about the polar gates? Is there one too in the south pole right? But I always find very few mentions like who fights the hordes that came from there?? Lizardmen?? Tomb Kings of the South Lands? Somebody else?
    Well, there are several factors that play in. For one, most chaos invasions are mortal tribes, not deamons. The "South pole" in warhammer is inhabited mainly by beastmen, and they don't tend to build a lot of boats so they don't invade much.

    Also, chaos has much stronger influence on the northern hemisphere than the southern. The reason is that the lizardmen's great warding and high elf outposts with waystones are much more intact in the south. Meanwhile, much of those magical defenses against chaos in the north have been destroyed. There are also more chaos worshippers in the north in general, which empowers the chaos gods there.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,641
    Didn't check to see if anyone mentioned it yet, but I believe in 40K they actually DID invade the realm of chaos, and are fighting at the foot of Khorne's throne. Waaagh! everlasting.
  • HermodrHermodr Registered Users Posts: 139
    Red_Dox said:





    Greenskins have no real understanding of the warp. They barely might be able to read a map showcasing the Old World, so how would they know about passing towards north and finding a portal to the Realm of Chaos? They usually attack what they know is around them. Or what they know lies in their path. WAAAGH!s often are just pushing in a vague direction, destroying simply everything in their path. Hell, look at Grom. His shaman told him about some vast new lands and riches beyond the Old World and he set sail, while most of his crew probably did not know how to man a ship in the first place.
    Even if a WAAAGH! would run north, the power of the WAAAGH is that it attracts greenskins from everywhere to first get momentum and then keeping it. Going north would mean leaving the rich provinces full of greenskin tribes behind. The further north, the harder it will be to grow stronger or even recruit enough new tribes to refill casualties.
    if by a miracle a portion of the WAAAGH! would reach the collapsed gate and enter the Realm of Chaos, they would just be cut off. While Daemons in their home have every advantage and are at their strongest. No race of the Warhammer World should be able to win a war in the Realm of Chaos.

    -----Red Dox

    I undestand that no race should be able to win a war in the Realm of Chaos but it seems that just like the GS started flocking to Eltharion when they heard that he would give them a "proper fight" that some, or most, GS would also flock north once they heard of the constant raiding e pillaging performed by chaos warriors and norscans at the time of the great invasions or at least later... The Greenskins at the northern part of the World Edge Mountains are close enough to Kislev and Erengrad to at least hear and pass on the rumors about a grand force that exist in the polar and that keeps pushing south. Sure, they propably would die in the process of trying to find that entrance to Chaos Realm but until then they would have fight some of the best champions in the world!! However you do point to the replenishment of GS that makes a sense indeed, since there is fewer GS north than there is south, the Waaaagh would problably die out. Thank you for the answer!!
  • HermodrHermodr Registered Users Posts: 139

    Hermodr said:

    Greenskins are not a unifed force by any means. Many have invaded the wastes, Grimgro spent a long time there fighting chaos champions, but no huge invasion went there that we know of. For the greenskins, they like toppling things like cities and such, and the wastes don't offer much in terms of that. Besides, the wastes are so inhospitable and filled with chaos servants and monsters that even greenskins would not survive there for long.

    The realm of chaos would be completely inaccesible to them, most greenskins probably don't know it exists. In theory a huge Waaagh!!! could reach one of the polar gates, but it would have to be the biggest in all of history. Consider that even the greatest Waaagh!!!s failed to destroy the empire, reaching the polar gates would be much more difficult.

    In general, very few mortals have been able to enter, and rarely by means available to greenskins. Grimnir walked to the gates themselves, but he is basicly a god and not comparable to any characters in the present of the setting. Oxyotl survived there for a long time, but largely through stealth and assassination and not because he was stronger than the all the deamons. And no army of any race has ever entered there, except for chaos worshippers who might have been invited.

    I see. Thank you for the answer!! Very Insteresting. Another thing but about the polar gates? Is there one too in the south pole right? But I always find very few mentions like who fights the hordes that came from there?? Lizardmen?? Tomb Kings of the South Lands? Somebody else?
    Well, there are several factors that play in. For one, most chaos invasions are mortal tribes, not deamons. The "South pole" in warhammer is inhabited mainly by beastmen, and they don't tend to build a lot of boats so they don't invade much.

    Also, chaos has much stronger influence on the northern hemisphere than the southern. The reason is that the lizardmen's great warding and high elf outposts with waystones are much more intact in the south. Meanwhile, much of those magical defenses against chaos in the north have been destroyed. There are also more chaos worshippers in the north in general, which empowers the chaos gods there.
    Wow, that's actually pretty interesting, I didn't know about the beastmen at the south, neither that they lack ways to reach the coast, and the LM and HE outpost also makes a lot o sense, just as the "norscans feeding" the chaos forces making a bigger threat.
  • HermodrHermodr Registered Users Posts: 139
    Itharus said:

    Didn't check to see if anyone mentioned it yet, but I believe in 40K they actually DID invade the realm of chaos, and are fighting at the foot of Khorne's throne. Waaagh! everlasting.

    Sooo it is actually more a choice of GW than a proper lore impossibility? I mean, I know that GW could "armor plot" anything but it is interesting to know that in a parelel universe the GS did invade the Chaos Realm
  • KingGojiraKingGojira Registered Users Posts: 240
    They dont simply due to plot. Its bad writing.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,810
    Hermodr said:

    Red_Dox said:





    Greenskins have no real understanding of the warp. They barely might be able to read a map showcasing the Old World, so how would they know about passing towards north and finding a portal to the Realm of Chaos? They usually attack what they know is around them. Or what they know lies in their path. WAAAGH!s often are just pushing in a vague direction, destroying simply everything in their path. Hell, look at Grom. His shaman told him about some vast new lands and riches beyond the Old World and he set sail, while most of his crew probably did not know how to man a ship in the first place.
    Even if a WAAAGH! would run north, the power of the WAAAGH is that it attracts greenskins from everywhere to first get momentum and then keeping it. Going north would mean leaving the rich provinces full of greenskin tribes behind. The further north, the harder it will be to grow stronger or even recruit enough new tribes to refill casualties.
    if by a miracle a portion of the WAAAGH! would reach the collapsed gate and enter the Realm of Chaos, they would just be cut off. While Daemons in their home have every advantage and are at their strongest. No race of the Warhammer World should be able to win a war in the Realm of Chaos.

    -----Red Dox

    I undestand that no race should be able to win a war in the Realm of Chaos but it seems that just like the GS started flocking to Eltharion when they heard that he would give them a "proper fight" that some, or most, GS would also flock north once they heard of the constant raiding e pillaging performed by chaos warriors and norscans at the time of the great invasions or at least later... The Greenskins at the northern part of the World Edge Mountains are close enough to Kislev and Erengrad to at least hear and pass on the rumors about a grand force that exist in the polar and that keeps pushing south. Sure, they propably would die in the process of trying to find that entrance to Chaos Realm but until then they would have fight some of the best champions in the world!! However you do point to the replenishment of GS that makes a sense indeed, since there is fewer GS north than there is south, the Waaaagh would problably die out. Thank you for the answer!!
    The thing is, Eltharion was fighting the greenskins in the badlands, the area with the highest concentration of them anywhere. It's like their homeland, so it's easier for them to flock there.
    Hermodr said:

    Itharus said:

    Didn't check to see if anyone mentioned it yet, but I believe in 40K they actually DID invade the realm of chaos, and are fighting at the foot of Khorne's throne. Waaagh! everlasting.

    Sooo it is actually more a choice of GW than a proper lore impossibility? I mean, I know that GW could "armor plot" anything but it is interesting to know that in a parelel universe the GS did invade the Chaos Realm
    Greenskins in 40K are very different from the fantasy ones. In 40K everyone has crazy technology, but the greenskins there kinda reach the same tech level as everyone else without actual science. They see other people with guns, they make their own scrap guns (that should never work) but it works because the greenskin psychological magic makes it so. If they think they can do something, they can. While this is kinda the same in fantasy, unless they believe they can do something they can't, and the power was always much weaker there.

    Also, going to the realm of chaos is much more common and easy in 40K in general. The most common means of faster-than-light travel in 40K is to fly through the realm of chaos using some crazy warp technology. This tech does not exist in fantasy.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,720

    They dont simply due to plot. Its bad writing.

    This exactly, and one of the main reasons the evil factions didn’t fight each other more is because the writers just decided they didn’t want them to.

    While it wouldn’t be a major focus, there would definitely be more cases of already successful war bosses throwing boyz at the north (Like how once Grom had the Empire and Dwarfs on the ropes he looked for a more imaginative/inspiration target for the ladz).

    Also, as far as I know the Dark Lands are completely infested with Greenskins, so there’s no reason a waaagh wouldn’t draw some of the northern tribes during the fightin.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,091


    Also, as far as I know the Dark Lands are completely infested with Greenskins, so there’s no reason a waaagh wouldn’t draw some of the northern tribes during the fightin.



    Dark Lands are not exactly "going north". And as far as i know, we have not really mentioned tribes around Norsca or in Kurgan territory. So I stick to my theory that a WAAAGH who starts in the Badlands, in teh Worlds Edge or even in the Dark Lands will get into trouble of recruiting, the farther north they venture.

    ------Red Dox
  • AlchimistAlchimist Registered Users Posts: 291
    Hermodr said:

    Itharus said:

    Didn't check to see if anyone mentioned it yet, but I believe in 40K they actually DID invade the realm of chaos, and are fighting at the foot of Khorne's throne. Waaagh! everlasting.

    Sooo it is actually more a choice of GW than a proper lore impossibility? I mean, I know that GW could "armor plot" anything but it is interesting to know that in a parelel universe the GS did invade the Chaos Realm
    Not really.

    The Orks in 40k are far stronger than the fantasy ones, they'd have better means to reach the Eye of Terror, the 40k equivalent of the Polar Gates, than what the fantasy Orcs have to go to the Chaos Wastes and reach the gate.

    Furthermore, if I recall correctly the Waaagh! in question was lead by the warboss Tuska, and they were eventually wiped out by Khorne's demons. However, Khorne was so impressed by the display of violence that he resurrected the Orks so they could fight eternally. That being said it's pretty old lore at that point.
  • BrizthomBrizthom Registered Users Posts: 721
    The Orc gods Gork and Mork occasionally invade the realm of Chaos to beat up the chaos gods.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,293
    Itharus said:

    Didn't check to see if anyone mentioned it yet, but I believe in 40K they actually DID invade the realm of chaos, and are fighting at the foot of Khorne's throne. Waaagh! everlasting.

    Tuska as described by Warhammer 40K Fandom

    Tuska is fighting the Blood Prince everyday in his very own Orky Valhalla empowered by Khorne himself and enjoying every second of it. But he is not an Orc. He's an Ork entitled 'Daemon-Killa,' and he conquered entire worlds before landing in the bloody hands before the brass throne. Grimgor can only imagine what that's like in his wildest dreams.

    One can only imagine how Gork and Mork feel about this development. Probably pretty good, but who can say?

    If there ever is an incursion within the Realm Chaos again (since this is an example of one), it's going to come from the Eye of Terror and many planets not from a single back water little fantasy planet. This isn't Lord of the Rings folks. There is no simple balm (ring) one can place to placate this festering tumor. The massive vortex itself is the balm, and it's power to hold back the corruption of the abyss is ever at the brink of disruption and cataclysmic failure.

    I guess I never really understood any of that growing up. I was never into elves.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,720
    Red_Dox said:


    Also, as far as I know the Dark Lands are completely infested with Greenskins, so there’s no reason a waaagh wouldn’t draw some of the northern tribes during the fightin.



    Dark Lands are not exactly "going north". And as far as i know, we have not really mentioned tribes around Norsca or in Kurgan territory. So I stick to my theory that a WAAAGH who starts in the Badlands, in teh Worlds Edge or even in the Dark Lands will get into trouble of recruiting, the farther north they venture.

    ------Red Dox
    Zorn Uzkul is a part of the dark lands that extends as far north as High Pass. What reason is there to assume it isn’t similarly inhabited by Greenskins?

    I do agree that Greenskins are less likely to go north en masse, as there is little plunder to be had chasing nomad tribes or attacking Norscan villages, but once a waaagh gets going, if it is directed north for whatever reason there are plenty of tribes in the dark lands to support it.

    But like Groms invasion of Ulthuan, it makes sense to me that a waaagh leader would only seek such an out of the way conquest once his victories (and ego) had already made him one of the most powerful and successful warbosses.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,091

    Red_Dox said:


    Also, as far as I know the Dark Lands are completely infested with Greenskins, so there’s no reason a waaagh wouldn’t draw some of the northern tribes during the fightin.



    Dark Lands are not exactly "going north". And as far as i know, we have not really mentioned tribes around Norsca or in Kurgan territory. So I stick to my theory that a WAAAGH who starts in the Badlands, in teh Worlds Edge or even in the Dark Lands will get into trouble of recruiting, the farther north they venture.

    ------Red Dox
    Zorn Uzkul is a part of the dark lands that extends as far north as High Pass. What reason is there to assume it isn’t similarly inhabited by Greenskins?


    Because first the assumption that Zorn Uzkul has large numbers of greenskins, is already just an assumption and we have very little to actually prove that. If we take Grimgor as assamble, he came out of that area with a few boyz and just started growing the real WAAAGH when he started to subdue the Worlds Edge inhabitants.

    And then Zorn Uzkul is north of the Dark Lands which is still a farcry away from the Northern Polar gate, as the endpoint of the journey. So when we talk "walking north", I still stick to my theory that a WAAAGH who starts in the Badlands, in the Worlds Edge or even in the Dark Lands will get into trouble of recruiting, the farther north they venture.

    ------Red Dox
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,720
    Red_Dox said:

    Red_Dox said:


    Also, as far as I know the Dark Lands are completely infested with Greenskins, so there’s no reason a waaagh wouldn’t draw some of the northern tribes during the fightin.



    Dark Lands are not exactly "going north". And as far as i know, we have not really mentioned tribes around Norsca or in Kurgan territory. So I stick to my theory that a WAAAGH who starts in the Badlands, in teh Worlds Edge or even in the Dark Lands will get into trouble of recruiting, the farther north they venture.

    ------Red Dox
    Zorn Uzkul is a part of the dark lands that extends as far north as High Pass. What reason is there to assume it isn’t similarly inhabited by Greenskins?


    Because first the assumption that Zorn Uzkul has large numbers of greenskins, is already just an assumption and we have very little to actually prove that. If we take Grimgor as assamble, he came out of that area with a few boyz and just started growing the real WAAAGH when he started to subdue the Worlds Edge inhabitants.

    And then Zorn Uzkul is north of the Dark Lands which is still a farcry away from the Northern Polar gate, as the endpoint of the journey. So when we talk "walking north", I still stick to my theory that a WAAAGH who starts in the Badlands, in the Worlds Edge or even in the Dark Lands will get into trouble of recruiting, the farther north they venture.

    ------Red Dox
    Fair enough.
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