Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

How to Reproduce the No Charge Bug

Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,260
Have you ever had a situation where your cavalry seems to get a clean charge into an enemy skirmisher only for its damage to be kind of...pathetic? There is a bug in the game where under the right conditions units will not activate charge and will just normally run into combat.

So, how does this bug happen?

There are three conditions that need to happen:

1. The unit is running away from the attacking unit.
2. The attacker initiates an attack order against the unit only after it has already started running away.
3. The fleeing unit continues to run away all the way up until the attacker catches up.


https://youtu.be/2RXOKrjsKZk

So basically if you move toward a unit without initiating an attack order, it starts running away, then you click attack, and it continues running away until you catch it, you will not get your charge bonus. This is why you see this bug most often against things like archers. You break into the backline with cavalry, archers start fleeing because they have skirmish mode on and you click attack on one of the runners. However it works for every unit type.

This results in some ridiculous scenarios like 950 gold Orc Boar Chariots losing to 450 gold Free Company Militia when their charge bugs out, but completely demolishing them when they get their charge in. It also proves that this isn't just some display bug.


Charge bugs out


Charge works


If you want to avoid having your cavalry bug out make sure you click attack BEFORE they start running away. If you really want to attack something that is already running from you, you can usually turn your cavalry around for a second, wait for the fleeing unit to also turn around, and then click attack. An easy way to tell if a unit got a charge in or not is to just hover over the leadership. It will give a line-item breakdown including +15 leadership for charging.

Alarmingly, this bug appears to happen across different Total War games. I was able to replicate the same bug in Three Kingdom as well.

I hope someone from Creative Assembly sees this and does something because it's a significant bug. The AI in particular seems to struggle because it issues attack orders fairly late.
«1

Comments

  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,461
    Amazing find man. Thank you.
    81jt2dj75iky.png


    Kia Kaha and C'est La Vie Kiwi123, neodeinos and FungusHound, the mighty Troll Slayers.
  • SelakahSelakah Registered Users Posts: 760
    Excellent find! Make sure to post this on the Warhammer II Support forum too!
  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Registered Users Posts: 1,420
    Oh wow, now I know why my cavalry sometimes dies pathetically to weak units. As if cavalry wasn't weak enough already.

    I often move my cavalry or other flanking units quite close to the enemy without issuing an attack order because otherwise enemy spearmen will often intercept their attack path.
  • zagumaarzagumaar Registered Users Posts: 47
    Great find, you should also post this in the bug report section
  • philosofoolphilosofool Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 515
    Cool. I have heard that some units seem not to do correct charge damage when charging other cavalry. (I heard this specifically about great stag knights.) is it possible this is similar or related?
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,260
    edited February 23
    zagumaar said:

    Great find, you should also post this in the bug report section

    Yeah, I have posted this on the bug report forum too. I just wanted to cast my net as wide as possible to give it more visibility. Also, I wanted to make sure you guys knew how to avoid it until it is fixed.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,867
    This isn't new in any way, this game always had trouble when it comes to attacking units that back away from the attacker. It's why running down fleeing enemies is such a chore with anyhting but Warhound type units.

  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,260

    This isn't new in any way, this game always had trouble when it comes to attacking units that back away from the attacker. It's why running down fleeing enemies is such a chore with anyhting but Warhound type units.

    Sure, I just don't think the exact steps to replicate it has been explained. It's not just about fleeing units. Charge works just fine against fleeing units if you click attack before they start running.
  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Registered Users Posts: 1,420

    This isn't new in any way, this game always had trouble when it comes to attacking units that back away from the attacker. It's why running down fleeing enemies is such a chore with anyhting but Warhound type units.

    Mh yes, probably it's related. Units seem to be completely unable to charge routing enemies. Probably intentional to give routing units a decent chance to escape.

    When chasing routing units, most units basically run up to the target at normal speed, then stop for a moment to start their attack animation, but by the time they are ready, the target has already moved away. It's ridiculous. Only hounds can do this really well, probably they have very short animations.

    No reason why this 'charge protection' for routing units - of dubious value anyway - should be extended to units that just run away without being routed.
  • philosofoolphilosofool Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 515

    This isn't new in any way, this game always had trouble when it comes to attacking units that back away from the attacker. It's why running down fleeing enemies is such a chore with anyhting but Warhound type units.

    Mh yes, probably it's related. Units seem to be completely unable to charge routing enemies. Probably intentional to give routing units a decent chance to escape.

    When chasing routing units, most units basically run up to the target at normal speed, then stop for a moment to start their attack animation, but by the time they are ready, the target has already moved away. It's ridiculous. Only hounds can do this really well, probably they have very short animations.

    No reason why this 'charge protection' for routing units - of dubious value anyway - should be extended to units that just run away without being routed.
    The bug, though, seems to depend on when the charge order is given.

    If this is supposed to be some sort of "defense" for routing units, CA should just get rid of it. Getting attacked in the rear while not even really trying to defend should be really, really bad for you.
  • Outsider4NOutsider4N Registered Users Posts: 166
    edited February 23
    Jman5 said:


    Sure, I just don't think the exact steps to replicate it has been explained. It's not just about fleeing units. Charge works just fine against fleeing units if you click attack before they start running.

    Goblin Pump Wagons have 'Pump harder ladz!' buff that is active when charging. You can track its icon on the unit card.

    I've just played 5 custom battles and this buff was Never active when they were attacking routing units.
  • philosofoolphilosofool Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 515
    Are we even sure that this only affects cavalry? Seems like it would be harder to detect with infantry (smaller charge bonuses, mass, etc.) but could still be present there.

    I tried to look by charging some bladesingers into fleeing goblin archers. The bladesingers didn’t seem to do much damage at first but then the goblins started dying fast. It wasn’t a great test, as you’d expect the goblins to die pretty fast against bladesingers. But it’s hard to find great units for the test. You need a fast attacker against a slow defender and the additional damage from the charge needs to be pretty pronounced.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,260
    edited February 23

    Are we even sure that this only affects cavalry? Seems like it would be harder to detect with infantry (smaller charge bonuses, mass, etc.) but could still be present there.

    I tried to look by charging some bladesingers into fleeing goblin archers. The bladesingers didn’t seem to do much damage at first but then the goblins started dying fast. It wasn’t a great test, as you’d expect the goblins to die pretty fast against bladesingers. But it’s hard to find great units for the test. You need a fast attacker against a slow defender and the additional damage from the charge needs to be pretty pronounced.

    Oh sorry if I wasn't clear. It affects all units. Cavalry and Chariots are just the most common units you see this with. I tested this with a Cairn Wraith too.
  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,617
    Thanks, we'll investigate the issue.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,867
    Well, all units except Warhounds.

  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,260

    Well, all units except Warhounds.

    It affects all units. Warhounds are just super fast already and their low mass for impact damage + charge bonus isn't as big as cavalry so it's less noticeable.


    Bugged Charge
  • Spellbound55Spellbound55 Registered Users Posts: 191

    Cool. I have heard that some units seem not to do correct charge damage when charging other cavalry. (I heard this specifically about great stag knights.) is it possible this is similar or related?

    As one of the guys who did a bunch of poking around with the GSK charge this doesn't appear to explain their performance. The GSK charge issue is most visible when they are getting counter charged by other cavalry and the issue isn't uniform across cavalry or monstrous cavalry. I think it's an issue with the GSK charge animation delaying individual models from making attacks on impact.
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,254
    I don't know if it's related, but I've noticed infantry charges are not having any visual impact. I first I thought I was mistaken, but running the battle benchmark and watching the moment the Lizardmen frontline connect with the High Elves and I saw it: only one or two Temple Guard units did the leaping animation. None of the HE units reacted and the almost the entire Lizardmen models just stopped in melee range. The benchmark ended before I saw any attack animations.

    That's with infantry charging other stationary infantry. I've been playing Lizardmen and Norsca, and it's the same against Skaven, HE, Bretonnia and other Norscans: almost never a charge animation with a charge-attack at the end.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,867
    Jman5 said:

    Well, all units except Warhounds.

    It affects all units. Warhounds are just super fast already and their low mass for impact damage + charge bonus isn't as big as cavalry so it's less noticeable.


    Bugged Charge
    Ah, OK then. But as I said, this interaction is old. Took CA four years to fix the unit collisions, let's see how long it takes for this.

  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 3,038
    Routing units shouldn't be protected, the time a cavalry wastes on destroying routing units works for the enemy too. I think this should be removed along with the "routing units are faster than regular units".

    I hope this help you guys to find a military reason to remove them both. @CA_Duck
    *Justice and CONFEDERATION for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast!
    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!


  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,254
    I'm sure there used to be a distinction between charging and chase-down behaviour. In Medieval 2, mounted knights used their lances for charges but swords if they were chasing-down routing units.

    Routing units were also killed instantly as their melee defence was zilch. This no longer happens due to health-bars making each model take multiple hits of their remaining health before the go down.

    Among all the other issues health-bars cause.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 11,043
    edited February 23

    I'm sure there used to be a distinction between charging and chase-down behaviour. In Medieval 2, mounted knights used their lances for charges but swords if they were chasing-down routing units.

    Routing units were also killed instantly as their melee defence was zilch. This no longer happens due to health-bars making each model take multiple hits of their remaining health before the go down.

    Among all the other issues health-bars cause.

    Health bars are good for crying out loud it would be weird if you Dread saurian or regenerating troll died from random spear , but they do need to add better chase animations
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,254
    saweendra said:

    I'm sure there used to be a distinction between charging and chase-down behaviour. In Medieval 2, mounted knights used their lances for charges but swords if they were chasing-down routing units.

    Routing units were also killed instantly as their melee defence was zilch. This no longer happens due to health-bars making each model take multiple hits of their remaining health before the go down.

    Among all the other issues health-bars cause.

    Health bars are good for crying out loud it would be weird if you Dread saurian or regenerating troll died from random spear , but they do need to add better chase animations
    I'm reminded of Dudley Moore in the film Arthur: "Imagine a world without baths, Hobson. This floor would be soaked."
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,182
    Thanks! I noticed this bug many times but had never figured out how to reproduce it.





    Thanks for the in heads up.
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 3,038

    saweendra said:

    I'm sure there used to be a distinction between charging and chase-down behaviour. In Medieval 2, mounted knights used their lances for charges but swords if they were chasing-down routing units.

    Routing units were also killed instantly as their melee defence was zilch. This no longer happens due to health-bars making each model take multiple hits of their remaining health before the go down.

    Among all the other issues health-bars cause.

    Health bars are good for crying out loud it would be weird if you Dread saurian or regenerating troll died from random spear , but they do need to add better chase animations
    I'm reminded of Dudley Moore in the film Arthur: "Imagine a world without baths, Hobson. This floor would be soaked."
    If you like Arthur, you should totally watch this Oscar special with a hall of fame to that movie.
    *Justice and CONFEDERATION for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast!
    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!


  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 11,043
    edited February 23

    saweendra said:

    I'm sure there used to be a distinction between charging and chase-down behaviour. In Medieval 2, mounted knights used their lances for charges but swords if they were chasing-down routing units.

    Routing units were also killed instantly as their melee defence was zilch. This no longer happens due to health-bars making each model take multiple hits of their remaining health before the go down.

    Among all the other issues health-bars cause.

    Health bars are good for crying out loud it would be weird if you Dread saurian or regenerating troll died from random spear , but they do need to add better chase animations
    I'm reminded of Dudley Moore in the film Arthur: "Imagine a world without baths, Hobson. This floor would be soaked."
    i don't get this ? care to explain
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,461
    Wait... is this why flying units are currently so bad at chasing routing units?
    81jt2dj75iky.png


    Kia Kaha and C'est La Vie Kiwi123, neodeinos and FungusHound, the mighty Troll Slayers.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,260

    Wait... is this why flying units are currently so bad at chasing routing units?

    To be honest, I'm not sure how this bug impacts routing units. As I understand it, you're supposed to retain your full charge bonus while attacking a routing unit. Certainly there seems to be an issue where you don't get that burst of speed you normally get when closing the distance with a normal charge. However I'm unsure if the boosted damage and melee attack is applying.
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,254
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    I'm sure there used to be a distinction between charging and chase-down behaviour. In Medieval 2, mounted knights used their lances for charges but swords if they were chasing-down routing units.

    Routing units were also killed instantly as their melee defence was zilch. This no longer happens due to health-bars making each model take multiple hits of their remaining health before the go down.

    Among all the other issues health-bars cause.

    Health bars are good for crying out loud it would be weird if you Dread saurian or regenerating troll died from random spear , but they do need to add better chase animations
    I'm reminded of Dudley Moore in the film Arthur: "Imagine a world without baths, Hobson. This floor would be soaked."
    i don't get this ? care to explain
    If CA had never decided to switch from the old hitpoint system to the healthbar system from Rome 2 onwards, do you think they would implement units and gameplay mechanics that interact with healthbars in exactly the same way, just with hitpoints instead? Of course not, it's as ridiculous as suggesting the non-invention of baths would have lead to soaking floors today due to water poured for baths having nowhere else to go.

    The Total War series has had very tough units like Elephants, the Kensai and Naginata Samurai, all with 1 or 2 hitpoints. All potentially could be killed in one hit, but because the surrounding gameplay mechanics were designed to work alongside it, such an occurrence was not so much down to random chance, but the decisions of the player.

    In Thrones of Britannia, the designers realised in part the problems caused by healthbars and implemented the 'arrow in the eye' rule that gave each attack a chance to kill. I say in part, because this doesn't actually solve any of the problems, it just gives the impression of it. CA seems to have form with masking rather than solving, because they get wedded to ideas they think are improvements, and never seem quite able to justify them.
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,254

    Wait... is this why flying units are currently so bad at chasing routing units?

    If fleeing units have between 1 to 90 health among all the entities, you have to hope your chasing units target those with lower health because it could otherwise take Fell Bats 5 *successful* hits(which are not guaranteed) and their attack cooldown is 4.3 seconds each.

    Fleeing enemies used to take just one hit, adjusted for their armour(which generally made them much slower) and they were dead or 'captured'. Even if MD is reduced to zero, the healthbars keep a lot of routers alive.
Sign In or Register to comment.