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Legend has said in his latest stream "heros are so OP now that you dont even need normal units"

2

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  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,461

    Amonkhet said:

    I mean, if they didnt, would they really be heroes?

    Lampros73 said:

    There should be a unit cap - and a character cap as well.

    Caps just swap one problem for another: leads to a single build.
    The tomb kings have an entire system based around caps and there does not seem to be an issue with a single build for them.
    The entire race is designed around it.
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  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 4,347

    Amonkhet said:

    I mean, if they didnt, would they really be heroes?

    Lampros73 said:

    There should be a unit cap - and a character cap as well.

    Caps just swap one problem for another: leads to a single build.
    The tomb kings have an entire system based around caps and there does not seem to be an issue with a single build for them.
    Ever played early game tomb kings? Its Lord + as many heroes as you can have with the max amount of cap units you can get + fill rest of army with skeleton swordsmen.

    Thats as autobuild as it gets.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,806
    edited February 26
    Heroes are ALREADY largely soft capped aren’t they?

    You can’t ‘accidentally’ spam them as each building only unlocks a certain number.

    So you’d deliberately have to spam the building to build the problematic stack you’re describing. It’s definitely more cheesy than just ‘recruiting units’. Sooo yeah, this is definitely an issue of player self restraint. As organically playing the game ‘as intended’ would never yield such a stack.

    It’s different than dinosaur or dragon spam which you only need one building in one province to crank it out. You couldn’t build a hero spam stack with any single province. You’d have to expand AND deliberately tailor your empire infrastructure to support the stack.

    In other words.... it’s a self-made issue.
    Post edited by Valkaar on
  • BeargodBeargod Registered Users Posts: 24
    I agree OP. They should limit the amount of heroes per army to 1 or 2. Just like you cant have more than 1 lord in the army.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 11,043

    I agree OP. They should limit the amount of heroes per army to 1 or 2. Just like you cant have more than 1 lord in the army.

    mp limit of three is good one lord two heroes
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 1,989
    Cyresdog said:

    There is always the option to not cheese.
    You wanna cheese and destroy the fun for yourself, then do it.
    If not then don't. Simple.

    "Just don't try to play well. Deliberately play badly instead of asking for the game to be fixed!"
  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 982
    im more than happy to have a cap of 2 heroes per army, or better 2 seperate hero slots that only heroes can occupy. but im also equally capable of doing that myself, its not as if the game is impossible to play without hero armies or even close to that.

    personally i limit single entities/heroes for the simple fact that they stop feeling like armies with too many of them.
  • Lampros73Lampros73 Registered Users Posts: 158

    I agree OP. They should limit the amount of heroes per army to 1 or 2. Just like you cant have more than 1 lord in the army.

    1 or 2 is unreasonable; many factions have 4 or more. 3 or 4 per army makes more sense.
  • BillybabelBillybabel Registered Users Posts: 170
    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    I mean, if they didnt, would they really be heroes?

    Lampros73 said:

    There should be a unit cap - and a character cap as well.

    Caps just swap one problem for another: leads to a single build.
    The tomb kings have an entire system based around caps and there does not seem to be an issue with a single build for them.
    Ever played early game tomb kings? Its Lord + as many heroes as you can have with the max amount of cap units you can get + fill rest of army with skeleton swordsmen.

    Thats as autobuild as it gets.
    Your response is that they don't have diversity in the early game? As opposed to the swordsmen, spearmen and heros you must spam as the other factions? Your armies get a lot more diverse since supply lines don't force you to have elite single stacks.
  • MODIDDLY1MODIDDLY1 Registered Users Posts: 294

    Cyresdog said:

    There is always the option to not cheese.
    You wanna cheese and destroy the fun for yourself, then do it.
    If not then don't. Simple.

    "Just don't try to play well. Deliberately play badly instead of asking for the game to be fixed!"
    "people shouldn't be able to play the game in ways that I don't like. The game should force players to make army comps that I approve of"

    : /
  • RevoranRevoran Member Registered Users Posts: 200
    edited February 26
    Lampros73 said:

    There should be a unit cap - and a character cap as well.

    Sure but make it an optional setting when you start a campaign.

    It can be like the tabletop rules where they had restrictions on lords/heroes/core/special/rare units, and some units had other restrictions as well (like a limit of 1 per army etc).
  • joproulx99joproulx99 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 830
    Debates about caps per armies for heroes and units similar to TT are around since warhammer 1...

    If you are pro caps, they tell you to use mods.

    Sad.

    In my current campaign I use TT caps mod along with Cost based army cap mod, so I have a limit to my total cost per stack, and also limits of certain units per stacks along with heroes limits. I'm testing both together atm and they seem to work fine together!

    Also Cost Based Army Cap can be customized a lot too, right now I have set the hero cap to 3 and army cost capped at 16k, with lord increasing the cap by 100 per level for a total of 20000 at lvl 40.

    So when you build an army you need to think because every decisions has a compromise and every units is viable since even making the decision to use a unit without shield to save on cost matter, making all units in the game relevant all game long. Even choosing to use a character unmounted matter in your build.

    I wish we had this as options in the base game, I wish we had the system for characters they use in 3K alongside it too!
    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

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  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Registered Users Posts: 1,402
    Upkeep just needs to keep pace with the character's power as he levels and equips magic items. A level capped hero on a monster mount with all blue and crafted items should cost a significant amount. If you want to spend a small fortune on a stack of heroes and take up all the building slots needed to be able to recruit them, then you should be able to.

    Character skill trees are one of the few things that haven't been power crept to the moon in this game. At launch characters could get 30 weapon skill from 3 points. It's been toned way down.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,806
    Soft caps already exist for heroes. Nothing additional is necessary to limit them. You don’t want a 20-stack of heroes? Don’t build their recruitment building in literally every provincial capital you capture. No mods required. Problem solved.

    I’d be okay with similar-ish SOFT caps for units as well. But I mean generous Medieval 2 soft caps. Not TT simulator caps. I have no interest in TT and wouldn’t have purchased this game if it had been marketed as a TT game. It was marketed as a TOTAL WAR game, that I have enjoyed for years, in part due to being to build whatever armies I wanted in a sandbox setting.

    TT simulator rules kinda baffle me. This is a Total War game. Not a Tabletop Simulator. It would honestly be a worse/less popular game imo if it TRIED to be a TT simulator. TT died, while Total War was thriving. Maybe TT fans should be more appreciative of the Total War formula which revived their TT game back from the dead. Hard caps are antithetical to the very nature of sandbox Total War and have not been present in any previous title. Soft caps are the most we’ve seen.

    That being said, I’d ALSO be okay with hard caps as a toggle-able option. It’s already a checkbox available for custom battles. Adding a similar box to the campaign selection screen seems simple/easy enough to me.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,580
    I agree, common heroes are ridiculous, lords probably as well
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 261
    I must say that i've never seen a post of similar quality since the old monogods debates of 4-5 pages.


    First, the **** is "normal units"?
    If it is "any unit" then that's **** because heroes take a long time to recruit because caps, even more if you want to pick traits. The only heroes that can avoid the caps are plague priests and eshin sorcerers, which both are not good spammed since yes they are mages but either you leave them on foot and get **** by cav and chariots or you use the plague furnace and become a projectile soak, all with relatively **** melee stats.
    If is melee infantry as line holder then you can make the case for some races that heroes are better as line holder, like Skaven or Empire that have rather **** infantry, but that's not a general case. For example, if you try to use a hero frontline with DE you'll have a bad time because their shots are imprecise and AP, so you'll get a lot of unneded friendly fire.
    Otherwise, any heroes minus mages can do anything a monster can do. Some better, some worse, still can.

    I personally completely break the game around turn 40-60 when i have just one or two stacks with several heros in them that are half leveled up.

    Assuming those heroes are mages (it would be "strange" they are melee), i suggest increasing the campaign difficulty. Honestly, if you're not trying to **** up your campaign by recruiting objectively bad units then that's more a campaign problem since even magic is not autowin.

    I mean are you guys actually enjoying this? Having the game so obviously broken and overbalanced like this?Do you want this fixed or do you want it to stay as is?

    Yes, i want it fixed. But i know it won't be fixed because nobody gives a **** about balance and CA don't like to work for minorities. And, honestly, if you were them, would you get your hands dirty for a fanbase that can't even decide what's broken or not and give answers based on mood rather than a logic process?

    Not to offend anyone, but screaming "even more caps" or other half-political slogans won't convince anyone, let alone the devs.
  • SephlockSephlock Registered Users Posts: 2,469
    I mean, at least for certain factions that's been the case for a while- Vampire heroes and of course Lizardman heroes are like that.

    OTOH you die a little more inside as you manually level up 19 heroes + 1 lord after every. single battle.
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  • IchonIchon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,387
    Some factions have had OP heroes for a long time- Vampires, a few other factions are just coming aboard but there are still several factions whose heroes are too weak to be used that way.

    Most of the issues are due to the stacking of bonuses to stats in a campaign where there are just too many sources of bonus after years of DLC and updates with only healing and ward save having a cap.

    I don't think any bonuses even stacked should give more than 50% to base unit stats. The possible exception should be legendary items just to give them some value in the campaign- if someone wants to farm 36 legendary items so 12 heroes can have armour, weapon, and talismans they are welcome to spend dozens of turns doing so if they have fun doing it.
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  • YurisusukiYurisusuki Registered Users Posts: 163
    I never use more than one hero in my armies, maybe you should try
  • Tempus_fugitTempus_fugit Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,361
    Oh dear.
    "Heroes are broken and make me mad so I will recruit a bunch of them and then come and complain on a forum."

    Shiro admitted he has no ability to control his own actions, so your balanced arguments are not going to change anything, and we keep responding to mssfake news and only have ourselves to blame for feeding the under the bridge comments.

    Explaining to them that a sandox game means you have the leeway to make an army of dragons, an army of tree men or (like I did many a year ago) a full 20 stack army of heroes, or a balanced army harking back to the tabletop, or anything you desire and it is up to you will not make them stop complaining.

    Legends has been scraping the barrel with mammoth stacks and has moved from his normally considered and balanced views to spam and click bait titles.
    I guess the youtube competition is fierce these days. I tend to prefer milk and cookies these days or actually, you know, play the game than listen to tubers.
    There is no time but the present. – S:TW Hojo, R:TW Brutii/Germania/Alemanni(BI), Med2: Venice, S2: Oda, R2: Julia/Boii/Suebi/Lusitani, Attila: Geats/Garamantians, WH: All factions VH, Wood Elves on L. TWWH2: Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Skaven, Khalida, High Elves, Vampirates. ME: Khalida, Vampire Counts, Carcasonne, Wood Elves
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 423
    This is the most stupid ranting I have heard. I am sure CA can adapt one of the many restriction mods in the base game, but leave it optional at the start tab and you can choose what you want to do then all the table top fans can stop ranting about it.

    About doomstack, you can play it without one. The AI almost never doomstack,why should you then if you do not enjoy it??? I mean wtf, this is like all the world of warcraft players complaining how bad the game is,yet they continue to play it year after year..
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 3,038
    “legend”
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    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!


  • HL230P45HL230P45 Registered Users Posts: 22
    Some factions have had OP heroes for a long time- Vampires

    Why are vampire heroes considered OP that way? I'm not sure I follow.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,580
    HL230P45 said:

    Some factions have had OP heroes for a long time- Vampires

    Why are vampire heroes considered OP that way? I'm not sure I follow.
    Because that’s how the faction plays, if you kill them the whole army starts crumbling so they need to be very strong
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,867
    edited February 26

    Lampros73 said:

    Kelefane said:

    Lampros73 said:

    There should be a unit cap - and a character cap as well.

    Optional in the options yes. Don't force people to play a certain way.
    All games have rules that force players to play a certain way. This objection never made sense and is just a poor attempt to reframe the debate to put one side in the best possible light as supposed defenders or player "freedom".

    In truth, severe imbalances reduce player freedom. Creativity is most required if you have to make do with a limited hand, otherwise the solution will always be to just brute force everything.
    Well-put.
    It's terribly put. It's under the false pretence that the game is designed as a challenge, rather than a fun experience, and that only challenge can be enjoyable.
    Boring myself through the game is a "fun" experience? And if the game's not supposed to be a challenge, then what's the point of even having an adversarial AI and difficulty levels? You know this game is simulating warfare, right?
    kitekaze said:

    Kelefane said:

    Lampros73 said:

    There should be a unit cap - and a character cap as well.

    Optional in the options yes. Don't force people to play a certain way.
    All games have rules that force players to play a certain way. This objection never made sense and is just a poor attempt to reframe the debate to put one side in the best possible light as supposed defenders or player "freedom".

    In truth, severe imbalances reduce player freedom. Creativity is most required if you have to make do with a limited hand, otherwise the solution will always be to just brute force everything.
    You need to define what a sandbox game is first.
    Sorry, but I've been repeatedly insulted as lacking self-control and willpower, so this game is pretty obviously not a "sandbox" since the player is required to force himself to ignore most of the options given.

  • Tempus_fugitTempus_fugit Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,361

    ...
    Sorry, but I've been repeatedly insulted as lacking self-control and willpower, so this game is pretty obviously not a "sandbox" since the player is required to force himself to ignore most of the options given.

    Not insulted. Accurately quoted. your response to Reeksy-boy... https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/2870774#Comment_2870774
    There is no time but the present. – S:TW Hojo, R:TW Brutii/Germania/Alemanni(BI), Med2: Venice, S2: Oda, R2: Julia/Boii/Suebi/Lusitani, Attila: Geats/Garamantians, WH: All factions VH, Wood Elves on L. TWWH2: Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Skaven, Khalida, High Elves, Vampirates. ME: Khalida, Vampire Counts, Carcasonne, Wood Elves
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,867
    Sorry, don't see myself "admitting" to lack willpower there. If I don't want to purchase something, it's not because I'm lacking money, it's because I don't want to spend money on it.

    And I'm still waiting for people to explain how a game can be a sandbox if you are required to force yourself to ignore most of its options. Nah, not just that, force yourself to play bad since the game optimises itself for you otherwise.


  • HL230P45HL230P45 Registered Users Posts: 22
    lucibuis said:

    HL230P45 said:

    Some factions have had OP heroes for a long time- Vampires

    Why are vampire heroes considered OP that way? I'm not sure I follow.
    Because that’s how the faction plays, if you kill them the whole army starts crumbling so they need to be very strong
    Yes, this is conceptually true, but I am playing a Vampire counts campaign right now and I don't see it in practice.
    Wight king has 35 or sth. MA and no noticable AP component to it's damage and hence is one of the worst general combatant type hero I have experienced.
    Vampire hero, while a good mage, has less than outstanding melee defence and damage. Maybe it is powercrept heroes of newer factions, but in my VH/N campaign all the heroes underperform. And that is on Normal battle difficulty.
    And if you want to mention the very handy ability to heal and enhance them with magic, I need to mention that in a typical battle you need almost all of you wind of magic reserve for Wind of death casting.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 4,852
    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    I mean, if they didnt, would they really be heroes?

    Lampros73 said:

    There should be a unit cap - and a character cap as well.

    Caps just swap one problem for another: leads to a single build.
    The tomb kings have an entire system based around caps and there does not seem to be an issue with a single build for them.
    Ever played early game tomb kings? Its Lord + as many heroes as you can have with the max amount of cap units you can get + fill rest of army with skeleton swordsmen.

    Thats as autobuild as it gets.
    If that is how you wish to build Tomb King armies, because you are incapable of winning otherwise, then that is entirely on you. Personally I didn't ever have more than 3 heroes in any of my armies, and I certainly diversified the builds of each army as I saw fit.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 6,280
    Oh well... i always play with hard caps on heroes and soft caps on units. If people are fine with vanilla, more power to them. I see no problem.
This discussion has been closed.