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What's the point of Helman Ghorst?

PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 1,654
Couldn't they have picked Ushoran or Zacharias as Legendary Lord?
Warhammer Fantasy is less grimdark than 40k.
Ogre Kingdoms when CA?
Dogs of War need Ogres and halflings.
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Comments

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,260
    A few people quite like him now, LoTW seems to enjoy playing him.
  • HondlisHondlis Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 775
    I'd say he's quite nice LL gameplay wise. I have zero issue with him being added nor do i with any of non-book characters.

    The only issue regarding Vampires is complete lack of variety in their campaign. Whatever you take excluding Kemler, your campaign will always be the same.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,645
    As Xenos mentioned, In Total War: Warhammer 1, they themed the Lord Packs with specific scenarios in mind and with characters, that were most closely related to the new units.

    The king and the Warlord is about capturing Karak Eight-Peaks, which is being fought over by Skarsnik, Belegar Ironhammer and Queek Headtaker.

    Skarsnik Brought Squigs and Nasty Skulkers, fitting for him and Belegar got Rangers and Bolt Throwers.

    The Vampire vs Empire Lord Pack was inspired by a tabletop campaign called "Sigmar's Blood".

    Ghorst was most closely related to the new corpse cart unit introduced and since the Mortis Engine is also a chariot, they made him the aura-chariot Lord.

    In game 2, they went away with that, I believe partially because of the criticism and much rather gave players what they actually wanted: Popular, Major or Interesting Gameplay characters over specific rivalries.

    and then there was Tretch... yeah, nobody expected him ^^
  • HighPriest_AstragothHighPriest_Astragoth Registered Users Posts: 392
    To add to ^, with both Vlad and Isabella coming down the pipes, I think CA wanted to keep with the already set theme of Necromancers vs Vampires, but as was already stated, back then things were different, Kemmler would never lower himself to being a servant to the munchkin baldy, but for the time he had to in order to make him fit in the Vampire Counts faction, well that and fair Bretonnia was left unfinished, and the Wood Elves were impassable Fog of War, so it wouldn’t be quite fair to put him in his old stomping ground. There were way better Necromancers to chose from, but one that would fit the campaign ideals was sadly Ghorst.

    On retrospect, I’m sure CA wishes they had just added a way better Necromancer or a Bloodline champion, yet here we are, with a no name Lord choice, who has one of the most powerful spells in the game, being able to summon not 1 but 2 Wight Kings, when Kemmler didn’t even have Krell. Sadly I think we are stuck with Ghorst, granted, he has a neat mount option, just very awful lore.


  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 2,104
    I'm my opinion he is redundant, Kemmler is the Necromancer LL of the VC, I understand why they added him, but I think it was a wasted LL entry.
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 1,654

    I'm my opinion he is redundant, Kemmler is the Necromancer LL of the VC, I understand why they added him, but I think it was a wasted LL entry.

    Kemmler needs more minions.
    Warhammer Fantasy is less grimdark than 40k.
    Ogre Kingdoms when CA?
    Dogs of War need Ogres and halflings.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 2,104

    I'm my opinion he is redundant, Kemmler is the Necromancer LL of the VC, I understand why they added him, but I think it was a wasted LL entry.

    Kemmler needs more minions.
    Krell needs to be a proper LH, with skill tree and Kemmler needs a proper unique skill tree.
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 1,654

    I'm my opinion he is redundant, Kemmler is the Necromancer LL of the VC, I understand why they added him, but I think it was a wasted LL entry.

    Kemmler needs more minions.
    Krell needs to be a proper LH, with skill tree and Kemmler needs a proper unique skill tree.
    Lore of the Lichemaster?
    Warhammer Fantasy is less grimdark than 40k.
    Ogre Kingdoms when CA?
    Dogs of War need Ogres and halflings.
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Registered Users Posts: 1,402

    Sadly I think we are stuck with Ghorst, granted, he has a neat mount option, just very awful lore.


    I quite like Ghorst's lore as a story. He just isn't an important character and taking up a LL slot with such a minor character was a mistake.
  • ArsenicArsenic Registered Users Posts: 6,194
    I think Ghorst's lore is actually quite good, he's one of the few characters on the "evil" side you can feel some legitimate sympathy for. In fact, I'd not sure he even really counts as evil or a villain, just someone driven mad with grief.
    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,044
    Vlad is a low ass Empire General reskin FLC because this nobody took his DLC spot. Even Dwarfs wrote this off.
  • zeekjwzeekjw Registered Users Posts: 26
    Just like his empire counterpart, he is overshadowed by the other lords of his faction. He needs a better gimmick or start position.
  • KrocodileKrew212KrocodileKrew212 Registered Users Posts: 226
    edited February 27
    As someone who is not a Vampire Counts fan, I still like his inclusion. One of the big issues I have with older Warhammer media is that it tends towards stagnation. Chaos is almost always the BBEG, Khorne is almost always the God with all the big toys to play with and even when not, the faction centered on tends to be Humans or the most Human-Like. The fact a little nobody like Ghorst got to play with the big boys is, to me, a portent of things to come in hindsight.

    I mean look what's happened since then. The rosters of 8th edition became guidelines instead of Gospel. Little subfactions with few if any rules became playable and exciting variations on a theme. Stuff that was lore-only or only found in sourcebooks and background material became added to beef up each roster wherever necessary. These are all good things, and allow the Total War Warhammer trilogy to exist as an independent chapter in the franchise's storied history rather than just being a digital advertisement for the now dead game or its 40k-esque reboot Age of Sigmar.

    So he's not my favourite, but I'm glad he exists. And to those fans upset he's occupying a slot you think should go to somebody else? I sympathise of course, but I'm still glad he exists. And I'd rather see innovation over stagnation.

    All is Dust. Hyuck hyuck.
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  • MODIDDLY1MODIDDLY1 Registered Users Posts: 299
    I don't object to him existing, but I do kinda hate that 4 of the VC lords start in Sylvania, and are only 2 factions.
  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 1,527
    Honestly, I quite like Ghorst, he's fun to play, he have a nice niche, and he helps Kemmler in not being the only necromancer in an ocean of vampires. After all Vampire Counts needs this duality.

    Plus, I prefer having Ghorst than having Konrad.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 2,104
    Maelas said:

    Honestly, I quite like Ghorst, he's fun to play, he have a nice niche, and he helps Kemmler in not being the only necromancer in an ocean of vampires. After all Vampire Counts needs this duality.

    Plus, I prefer having Ghorst than having Konrad.

    I don't have a problem with Ghost either, but he wasn't needed so soon, the priority when making new LL for the VC should be to have a LL from each bloodline, not a second Necromancer.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,461
    Helman Ghorst is a more fun initial campaign than Mannfred to me, and the casualty replenishment buff scales really well with the redesigned skele spam Vamps.
    81jt2dj75iky.png


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  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,461

    Maelas said:

    Honestly, I quite like Ghorst, he's fun to play, he have a nice niche, and he helps Kemmler in not being the only necromancer in an ocean of vampires. After all Vampire Counts needs this duality.

    Plus, I prefer having Ghorst than having Konrad.

    I don't have a problem with Ghost either, but he wasn't needed so soon, the priority when making new LL for the VC should be to have a LL from each bloodline, not a second Necromancer.
    That's a misconception.

    The VC don't need all their bloodlines represented. Would it be cool? Absolutely. But as far as I'm aware they weren't even all represented in the latest army book.
    81jt2dj75iky.png


    Kia Kaha and C'est La Vie Kiwi123, neodeinos and FungusHound, the mighty Troll Slayers.
  • HarkovastHarkovast Registered Users Posts: 2,182
    The point is to be awesome, riding dirty on his cart like a boss.
    For The Lady, for Manann, for Bordeleaux!
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 3,770
    I was never a big fan of the Ghorst inclusion. There are a ton of cooler options out there like Aborash, Zacharias, or Ushoran. It is what it is though.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • LordSolarMachLordSolarMach Registered Users Posts: 876


    That's a misconception.

    The VC don't need all their bloodlines represented. Would it be cool? Absolutely. But as far as I'm aware they weren't even all represented in the latest army book.

    The 8th edition book was less the Vampire Counts, and more the Von Carstein, Army Book.
  • brago90brago90 Registered Users Posts: 785
    Ghorst is mechanically a very interesting choice since he is the only named character who is strongly associated with the corpse chariots but has the problem that he does not have enough narrative weight to be worth paying for him today.

    At the time CA should have been more foresighted and have implemented the corpse cars as part of the base roster and after this implement Ghorst as FLC leaving the DLC position to a narratively heavier character.

    But they were other times with other sales expectations and with much tighter budgets.

    About Kemmler CA will eventually have to work with him again and give him a custom lore (not a new one just a mixed one to highlight that he is above most necromancers) and make Krell an official LH only accessible (in campaign) for Kemmler .
  • HighPriest_AstragothHighPriest_Astragoth Registered Users Posts: 392
    brago90 said:

    About Kemmler CA will eventually have to work with him again and give him a custom lore (not a new one just a mixed one to highlight that he is above most necromancers) and make Krell an official LH only accessible (in campaign) for Kemmler .

    Kemmler has vast potential, his mod "Return of the Lichemaster" does him justice, and its both lore friendly, and based on official GW rules/lore.

    Myself though, I want to see him act somewhat as the VC's version of the TK's Arkhan, where Kemmler can travel the world, and by going to either the Lands of the Dead or the Vampire Coast, he has to defeat a named LL, and in return he gains knowledge from those places, tipping his toes ever so lightly into those factions, giving him access to those factions units in the form of Campaign exclusives and RoR.

    It would be awesome to see Kemmler bringing both Grave Guard and Tomb Guard in the same army, would go a long ways to bring him back to his roots of evil Gandalf, traveling the world searching for lost lore and powerful undead. My friend and I ran his Kemmler VC army that way, mixing VC and TK skeletons together to form spectacle looking unit blocs.
  • veresh1989veresh1989 Russia, Saint-PetersburgRegistered Users Posts: 4,377
    The level of his story does not match the legendary vampire lord given the potential that vampires have. But within the framework of the Empire, there are not many options, and for Sylvania its inclusion is quite understandable. CA clearly did not plan such popularity in order to evaluate their actions in the future.

    Another disadvantage is that it is outdated and cannot compete with other lords. But named lords with history are always fun to hire in a campaign.
  • brago90brago90 Registered Users Posts: 785

    brago90 said:

    About Kemmler CA will eventually have to work with him again and give him a custom lore (not a new one just a mixed one to highlight that he is above most necromancers) and make Krell an official LH only accessible (in campaign) for Kemmler .

    Kemmler has vast potential, his mod "Return of the Lichemaster" does him justice, and its both lore friendly, and based on official GW rules/lore.

    Myself though, I want to see him act somewhat as the VC's version of the TK's Arkhan, where Kemmler can travel the world, and by going to either the Lands of the Dead or the Vampire Coast, he has to defeat a named LL, and in return he gains knowledge from those places, tipping his toes ever so lightly into those factions, giving him access to those factions units in the form of Campaign exclusives and RoR.

    It would be awesome to see Kemmler bringing both Grave Guard and Tomb Guard in the same army, would go a long ways to bring him back to his roots of evil Gandalf, traveling the world searching for lost lore and powerful undead. My friend and I ran his Kemmler VC army that way, mixing VC and TK skeletons together to form spectacle looking unit blocs.
    Kemmler has a lot of juice but being a starting character weighs on him. But eventually with the inclusion of Nagash we could expect changes in all undead factions. For example Kemmler could gain access to some of the units that Nagash brings into the game in case they decide to take inspiration from the lore of lichmaster and the exclusive units that Kemmler obtained in that supplement.

    We also have to take into account Kemmler's links with Tzeench from end times and all that stuff that necromancy has to serve the living and that at the end of the day even chaos is better than the undead.

    It would make sense for CA to antagonize Kemmler with the rest of the vampire counts (and not have access to the vampiric units) and in return give him the ability to negotiate with chaos.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 4,150

    The 8th edition book was less the Vampire Counts, and more the Von Carstein, Army Book.

    Von Carstein are Vampire Counts (of Sylvania).
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,691
    Poor guys a legendary hero, but that was before CA realise they can do such a thing

    Ghorst is not in any way a legendary material, better off being a legendary hero where all vamp counts faction can hire
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  • BlacedBlaced Registered Users Posts: 565
    Maelas said:

    Honestly, I quite like Ghorst, he's fun to play, he have a nice niche, and he helps Kemmler in not being the only necromancer in an ocean of vampires. After all Vampire Counts needs this duality.

    Plus, I prefer having Ghorst than having Konrad.

    Look, if we going to get necromancer, I would rather to get Dieter Helsnicht than Helman Ghorst, he has much more lore
  • BlacedBlaced Registered Users Posts: 565

    Maelas said:

    Honestly, I quite like Ghorst, he's fun to play, he have a nice niche, and he helps Kemmler in not being the only necromancer in an ocean of vampires. After all Vampire Counts needs this duality.

    Plus, I prefer having Ghorst than having Konrad.

    I don't have a problem with Ghost either, but he wasn't needed so soon, the priority when making new LL for the VC should be to have a LL from each bloodline, not a second Necromancer.
    At least one, Blooddragon and Strigoi can have around two
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