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Does anyone at all use CryptHorrors, CairnWraiths, Black Coaches, or Zombies?

#239632#239632 Registered Users Posts: 306
edited December 2021 in The Graveyard
Just tired the VC roster seems limited to only Skeletons, Vargeist, GraveGuard, Vargulfs, and Bloodnights. It feels like a waste of roster in current times. Sometimes Black Knights and Hex Wraiths. Other than that its hero spams. Anyone uses the 4 unites mention above at all?
Post edited by BillyRuffian#6250 on

Comments

  • Otters007#7127Otters007#7127 Registered Users Posts: 1,607
    edited March 2021
    I love vampire counts, but I feel like they are the only faction in the entire game where 50% of their roster is utterly useless trash.

    terrorgheists, grave guard, mortis engine, blood knights and the odd varghulf (maybe hexwraiths aswell) are great, the rest is garbage. (zombies and skeletons have their uses in MP and early game tho).

    I wish carinwraiths were super good. They look so cool, like an ethereal elite infantry would be awesome, but they suck so badly, even against fairly low tier infantry. Causing terror is all they are good at.
  • Iron_Crown#5779Iron_Crown#5779 Registered Users Posts: 1,852
    Crypt Horrors especially are much worse than they should be based on their stats. They always just die after a few seconds against anything they fight while barely doing any damage to the enemy. Something must be wrong with them. Like a broken animation or charge not working or something.

  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 5,332
    Cairnwraiths are really not as bad as people say. Sure they are pretty frail, but their damage output is really good. I use them as flankers in my Kemmler armies with great success.

    The other 3 I never use them, though. I guess their value is much better in multiplayer.
  • MODIDDLY1#9212MODIDDLY1#9212 Registered Users Posts: 1,268
    If you're talking about multiplayer, yeah a great deal of the counts roster is only used, because the ones that aren't are so niche it's not worth risking taking them because "Maybe the one thing they are good at will be in the enemy army, and the dozen counters to them won't be"

    In campaign, because of the growth nerf, the counts really can't afford to build any of them so are almost forced to skelly spam with Winds of Death because it's all they can afford, and they have so few lower tier units that are usable, and all of the killing power is the tier 4 or above.
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,397
    What growth nerf? Why can't you afford other units?

    TBH I think you probably just aren't very good at playing VC campaign. The same approach does not work for every single race in the game. If you're not playing elf/human/dwarf you have to change things up per race.
  • Uagrim#4644Uagrim#4644 Registered Users Posts: 2,079
    Itharus said:

    What growth nerf? Why can't you afford other units?

    TBH I think you probably just aren't very good at playing VC campaign. The same approach does not work for every single race in the game. If you're not playing elf/human/dwarf you have to change things up per race.

    Twisted and the twilight brought a few changes to growth to slow it down.

    Tomb Kings and Dwarfs were probably hit the worst but VC also rely a lot on tier 4 and 5 so they got hit as well.

    Some units could use a hand.

    Cairnwraiths and crypt horrors are probably fist in line. The issue zombies have is slow speed in a rush faction but than again you can use raise dead to get them.
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Forlì, ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 3,059
    I love Cane Wraiths as flankers.



    But yeah, Crypt Horrors are jobbers.
  • Seswatha#7633Seswatha#7633 Registered Users Posts: 4,822
    edited March 2021
    Horrors - niche MP unit for stopping high mass single entities, could use a buff.

    Cairn Wraiths - niche MP unit for terror vs races without a lot of magic damage, could use a buff. Can be used in SP, but for flavor more than anything.

    Black coaches - actually pretty great, MP and SP too.

    Zombies - Purely MP unit since in SP skellies are also free and make them redundant.

  • #239632#239632 Registered Users Posts: 306
    Yeah I dont play MP at all. Im talking Capaign only here and preformance wise I find only couple mods make the above mentions units payable. I just wonder without mods are they actually use by people.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,328
    Black coach and zombie are staple in MP quite good , crypt horrors and cairn wraiths lot more niche

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Jman5#8318Jman5#8318 Registered Users Posts: 2,113
    Crypt Horrors are nice for a cheap siege breaker ability early on. I also like to get a Strigoi Lord and use them because it has a bunch of bonuses for Ghouls and Horrors.

    Does it need a buff? Probably. However at the end of the day it's an 800 gold unit so it's always going to struggle to compete with tier 4 and 5 units.

    For Cairn Wraiths, I wish they could get a small buff to physical resist so they were a little tougher against non-magic attacks. Also it would be nice if there was a Lord that buffed them like the other units get. As it is now, I don't really use them.
  • Bereaver#4201Bereaver#4201 Registered Users Posts: 968
    I love to use Black Coaches in my campaigns.

    Actually, I've defeated whole Chaos Legendary Invasion only with Helman Ghorst, 18 Black Coaches and one Terrorgheist, they're that strong. Turned out that my other armies were only for show, I never needed any reinforcments lol.

    Beware though, Black Coaches suffer heavily against monsters, learned that hard way trying to fight against Dark Elves and Norscan Mammoths.

    Other units you named are in the sad place though, especially Crypt Horrors and Cairn Wraiths, these units are in dire need of budds. I never use Zombies in any other way than Raise Dead spell, Zombies are useless as actual unit when you can recruit Skeletons at t1.




  • VandicusVandicus Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 374
    There's little reason to use zombies at the moment in singleplayer.

    Crypt Horrors do suffer quite a bit compared to game 1, but they aren't bad. As a quick raise dead to replace units they can be pretty useful, but you'd prefer graveguard generally. They're ok in their primary role of fighting chaff infantry(though enemy ranged will shred them) and can do significant damage to single model units. Graveguard are just more useful all around though.

    Cairnwraiths are another case where you'd generally prefer to use graveguard. Cost almost the same but you generally get more out of the GG w/ GW.

    Haven't used black coaches anytime recently but it from other posters it sounds like they aren't getting stuck and killed like some chariots?
  • #239632#239632 Registered Users Posts: 306
    So are Black Coaches working better than chariots somehow?
  • Sparkwarrior777#6123Sparkwarrior777#6123 Registered Users Posts: 245
    I utilize zombies and skeletons as mob units just to eat artillery and being the first wave of attacks. Never used black coaches, and i utilize wraiths as flankers and ranged killers.
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,397
    I will admit zombies are useless in SP. I'm surprised they don't have a stench aura or something.
  • Seswatha#7633Seswatha#7633 Registered Users Posts: 4,822
    edited March 2021

    So are Black Coaches working better than chariots somehow?

    Chariots are also good units in general, just bit micro intensive so SP players tend to not like them, but they pretty much hard counter infantry when used well.

    Black coaches are better than your average chariot though as they get crazy buffs after staying long enough in melee, like 44% ward save. Which is easier to pull off vs AI.

  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Forlì, ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 3,059
    Itharus said:

    I will admit zombies are useless in SP. I'm surprised they don't have a stench aura or something.

    I'm surprised zombies never had variants on the TT game. Can you imagine zombies with halberds?
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,397

    Itharus said:

    I will admit zombies are useless in SP. I'm surprised they don't have a stench aura or something.

    I'm surprised zombies never had variants on the TT game. Can you imagine zombies with halberds?
    Only when spear-goblins get a bonus v large :)
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,328

    Itharus said:

    I will admit zombies are useless in SP. I'm surprised they don't have a stench aura or something.

    I'm surprised zombies never had variants on the TT game. Can you imagine zombies with halberds?
    vampire coast zombie pirate helberds

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • paullevin93#1129paullevin93#1129 Registered Users Posts: 86
    Yeah, I’ve seen people asking for grave guard with halberds but I’d rather they just beefed up the cairn wraiths instead, hexwraiths too. Let them fill the role.

    Crypt horrors...I don’t know what they are supposed to do. Maybe make them more tanky like the tree kin? Higher melee attack and weapon strength? They are big as hell after all.

    I thought it might be cool if necrarchs gave weird buffs to zombies. Maybe make them super fast, speed of 60? Think like 28 Days Later zombies. Or add more models so that there’s a reason to get them over trusty skeletons.
  • Iron_Crown#5779Iron_Crown#5779 Registered Users Posts: 1,852
    Units like Zombies can only become useful if you add cost limits to armies. If you want for example a backbone of very strong monsters or cavalry but have limited funds, you'd then take just a bunch of zombies to act as your anvil.

    Without fund limits per army, a units as weak as zombies will never be worth one of the 20 slots in an army.

  • Tempus_fugit#2711Tempus_fugit#2711 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,404
    I admit I don't use zombies except in the very early stages of a campaign just to add the last few slots in a cheap army, I only summon them in battle. But a quick summon and van hels and marching them in front as your main troops move closer is a decent use.

    I have successfully used crypt horrors and cairn wraiths in my armies since the first day of tw warhammer 1 to present. I use black coaches less often but I have used them as flanking infantry hunters in the past.

    I find less use for mortis engines. I have used them in the past and will probably have one in every army when I do a necrarch play through.

    I put these things down to different plays types and preferences.

    I think the problem is the crumbling damage they receive in battle on top of normal damage.

    VC ctrl-c ctrl-v from other thread:

    Crypt horrors, Attack 34, Defence 25, Weapon 70 (AP 52, Norm 18); poison, regeneration
    Tree kin, Att 26, Def 51, W 58 (AP 18, N 40); charge defence, phys resistance
    Kroxigors, Att 26, Def 26, W 95 (AP 70, N 25); predatory senses
    Rat ogres, Att 26, Def 26, W 80 (AP 58, N 22); frenzy

    Crypt horrors are middle of the pack, or even a touch above middle. But generally you either like monstrous infantry or you don't.

    Cairn wraiths, Att 28, Def 26, W 44 (AP 38, N 6); ethereal, terror
    White lions of Chrace, Att 36, Def 28, W 34 (AP 25, N 9); lion cloak
    Greatswords, Att 32, Def 30, W 32 (AP 23, N 9); anti-infantry
    Har ganeth, Att 38, Def 34, W 42 (AP 29, N 13); anti-infantry.

    Cairns wraiths have lower attack (average of about 6 lower), low defence (normal for VC), but the highest armour piercing damage of the common great weapon units, same health as syreens, fast and they are easy to raise.
    There is no time but the present. – S:TW Hojo, R:TW Brutii/Germania/Alemanni(BI), Med2: Venice, S2: Oda, R2: Julia/Boii/Suebi/Lusitani, Attila: Geats/Garamantians, WH: All factions VH, Wood Elves on L. TWWH2: Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Skaven, Khalida, High Elves, Vampirates. ME: Khalida, Vampire Counts, Carcasonne, Wood Elves
  • #239632#239632 Registered Users Posts: 306
    Crypt Horrors use to have a role in Warhammer 1. I could fight and beat Chaos Warriors with Crypt Horrors. They were the damage dealers where Graveguard were the line holders. Now the Horrors melt way too fast and deal less damage than Warhammer 1. Making them seem useless except as a handicap or challenge for a player to force themselves to use them.
  • SteelRonin#4832SteelRonin#4832 Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,566
    Black Coach is one of my favorite units, I love to see that little Coach moving into the battlefield
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,397

    Units like Zombies can only become useful if you add cost limits to armies. If you want for example a backbone of very strong monsters or cavalry but have limited funds, you'd then take just a bunch of zombies to act as your anvil.

    Without fund limits per army, a units as weak as zombies will never be worth one of the 20 slots in an army.

    Truth.
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,397

    I admit I don't use zombies except in the very early stages of a campaign just to add the last few slots in a cheap army, I only summon them in battle. But a quick summon and van hels and marching them in front as your main troops move closer is a decent use.

    I have successfully used crypt horrors and cairn wraiths in my armies since the first day of tw warhammer 1 to present. I use black coaches less often but I have used them as flanking infantry hunters in the past.

    I find less use for mortis engines. I have used them in the past and will probably have one in every army when I do a necrarch play through.

    I put these things down to different plays types and preferences.

    I think the problem is the crumbling damage they receive in battle on top of normal damage.

    VC ctrl-c ctrl-v from other thread:

    Crypt horrors, Attack 34, Defence 25, Weapon 70 (AP 52, Norm 18); poison, regeneration
    Tree kin, Att 26, Def 51, W 58 (AP 18, N 40); charge defence, phys resistance
    Kroxigors, Att 26, Def 26, W 95 (AP 70, N 25); predatory senses
    Rat ogres, Att 26, Def 26, W 80 (AP 58, N 22); frenzy

    Crypt horrors are middle of the pack, or even a touch above middle. But generally you either like monstrous infantry or you don't.

    Cairn wraiths, Att 28, Def 26, W 44 (AP 38, N 6); ethereal, terror
    White lions of Chrace, Att 36, Def 28, W 34 (AP 25, N 9); lion cloak
    Greatswords, Att 32, Def 30, W 32 (AP 23, N 9); anti-infantry
    Har ganeth, Att 38, Def 34, W 42 (AP 29, N 13); anti-infantry.

    Cairns wraiths have lower attack (average of about 6 lower), low defence (normal for VC), but the highest armour piercing damage of the common great weapon units, same health as syreens, fast and they are easy to raise.

    Ethereal and Terror are pretty damned nice. Get 'em stuck in against something that's not sporting magical attacks or isn't immune to psychology and it's nice.
  • DigitalFistDigitalFist Registered Users Posts: 21
    edited December 2021

    Just tired the VC roster seems limited to only Skeletons, Vargeist, GraveGuard, Vargulfs, and Bloodnights. It feels like a waste of roster in current times. Sometimes Black Knights and Hex Wraiths. Other than that its hero spams. Anyone uses the 4 unites mention above at all?

    If you can be bothered to invest in a handful of technologies and 4 points in the red line of your LL, zombies actually go from utterly harmless but annoying chaff to giving basic line infantry run for their money, and that’s still costing you nothing, and they can be resurrected repeatedly inside or outside of battle. Raise Dead is just too good a spell for disrupting formations to not invest fully in it.

    So yes. Haven’t played VC for some time, but they’re a very clear if small part of my strategy for them.

    Cairn Wraiths are sadly almost even less effective than their Hexwraith cousins on horseback. I’ve never found a reason to purchase Crypt Horrors, either.

    The Black Coach used to be wack, but since it’s upgrade it’s now one of the best chariots in the game if you can be bothered to micro it. It’s benefits now kick in a fixed number of seconds after it’s been in close combat and then they stay on, rather than resetting every time. Level 3 includes a 44% ward save and strider. It decimates thin infantry lines. I’m not a fan of chariots, but this is probably the best one.
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