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Skaven Nerfs

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  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021
    In case it's too hard to understand, ever heard about the concept called "fleet in being"? Where having a large navy, just having it, not even deploying it served as a deterrent and a means to control the reactions of your rivals? Same thing here if Skaven ambush is left as broken as it is but the cost to avert it fully put on the recipients. And sacrificing 50% movement range is a MAJOR sacrifice and it being bought just by the threat of otherwise being subjected to broken shenanigans is unacceptable.

    Skaven would always come on top here. Either you move normally and are subjected to the usual BS, or you move at a snail's pace and they are given time enough to draw enough armies together to just overwhelm you the old-fashioned way. And the player will benefit from it too if the AI is made to crawl.

    No, Skaven ambush itself needs the nerfhammer.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,398
    I do like the idea of making offensive ambush its own stance with a reduced movement. Make it still a thing, but has some counterplay in that if you keep your distance, they can't have two stacks march up out of the fog of war while the one stack that was closer ambushes and get you that way.

    (Mind you, what I'd like to see in general is for reinforcements to be able to arrive in an ambush, albeit with a delay. Could generate that feeling of having to hold out until help arrives.)
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 522
    edited March 2021
    I think offensive ambush should be removed as a whole. They can instead add that Skaven can enter ambush stance with 0-10% remaining movement. It just doesn't make sense you move cross country and attack without being able to see them. They already got menance bellow to symbolise the Skaven being able to come out from everywhere.

    Also the mortars are just insane. Fighting Skaven isn't fun unless you have a full cav army, then their ambush makes the fights easier.

    A middle ground can be to make the stalking stance work as lightning strike, none can be reinforced.
  • GreenColoured#2445GreenColoured#2445 Registered Users Posts: 6,936
    Emrysor said:

    I think offensive ambush should be removed as a whole. They can instead add that Skaven can enter ambush stance with 0-10% remaining movement. It just doesn't make sense you move cross country and attack without being able to see them. They already got menance bellow to symbolise the Skaven being able to come out from everywhere.

    Also the mortars are just insane. Fighting Skaven isn't fun unless you have a full cav army, then their ambush makes the fights easier.

    A middle ground can be to make the stalking stance work as lightning strike, none can be reinforced.

    You...you DO realize that the giant character walking in the Campaign map is purely representational right?
  • Ninaran#8122Ninaran#8122 Registered Users Posts: 550
    The massive balance of power advantage these ambush battles bring is also the main reason why Skaven always dominate their areas (except maybe Skrolk if he's unlucky) in their areas. Every campaign past turn 80 or 100 turns into that giant Skaven whack-a-mole. So I'm all for nerfing it.
  • MLDAVMLDAV Registered Users Posts: 33
    I agree about encamp giving a ambush defense bonus and no reinforcements in ambush.

    But I like the Skaven ambush mechanic. I like that I have to change up my tactics and go slow and carefully when I go after the sneaky rats, the same way I need to gear up for cold/chaos attrition and capturing **** settlements when I go after Norska or how my artillery is useless if I run into dino stacks.

    The variation in factions is what makes the game worth it to me. If every factions special thing were just an annoyance it wouldn't be any fun after the early game.
  • BargrimmBargrimm Registered Users Posts: 329
    Absolutely agreed with the op. Skaven are absolutely over the top and there is zero justification for that silly overpowerdness. Its beyond reasoning why CA let them in this state for so long. Something must be done sooner than later and also in multiplayer.
  • Canuovea#6291Canuovea#6291 Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,960
    I hate the easy ambush stance thing.

    However, I wonder if there might be something better than just removing it.

    Not sure what, but you really shouldn't be able to be ambushed in encampment stance, or while besieging a town either.
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  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    MLDAV said:

    I agree about encamp giving a ambush defense bonus and no reinforcements in ambush.

    But I like the Skaven ambush mechanic. I like that I have to change up my tactics and go slow and carefully when I go after the sneaky rats, the same way I need to gear up for cold/chaos attrition and capturing **** settlements when I go after Norska or how my artillery is useless if I run into dino stacks.

    The variation in factions is what makes the game worth it to me. If every factions special thing were just an annoyance it wouldn't be any fun after the early game.

    Variation should not mean that factions get broken as heck stuff that serves to make their campaigns boring and fighting them aggravating. And again, no, the ambush itself needs nerfhammering, not the recipient of it.
  • LordCommander#3741LordCommander#3741 Registered Users Posts: 3,218
    edited March 2021
    If lightning strike needs to be unlocked then ambush move does too. Agree with encamp needing to give ambush defence, too. Even better if CA give us actual defenses on the battlemap. The main issue is it synegises with plague too well, you can't retreat to a settlement if it's infected and if you stay in the field ambush move clobbers you. Skaven are one of my fave factions but the ratboys need some mechanic re-jigging.

    Also, loyalty is pretty irrelevant.
    It's a beta.
  • SteelRonin#4832SteelRonin#4832 Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,566
    Leave Skavens alone!!

    Do you have problems to face them in campaign?, not a single skaven faction prevails in the campaing, they always have skavenslaves armies...they are always easy to deal with.

    Do you play with them and you consider them too easy?.....don't use them, and play with something harder, like Norsca.

  • Pr4vda#6038Pr4vda#6038 Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 2,326

    Leave Skavens alone!!

    Do you have problems to face them in campaign?, not a single skaven faction prevails in the campaing, they always have skavenslaves armies...they are always easy to deal with.

    Do you play with them and you consider them too easy?.....don't use them, and play with something harder, like Norsca.

    They are an easy faction when you play them. At least the 4 major clans. Im playing as Moulder in Legendary and get a doomstack of RO, abominations and those giant rats in less than 40 turns, kislev is done and half the empire. With lot of cities at level 4 due to their mechanics. Not a single revolt or loyalty problem. And food is not a problem because in a few fights you are back at max capacity.

    But it is also frustating when playing against them (AI). Yes Eshin has a lot of skaven slaves stacks. But on Legendary my few Stacks of dawi beeing ambushed by 4 eshin stacks and I cant do **** against it, or the warp bomb, is frustating because I can not do anything to counter it in some ways. Just camp in my walled settlements and play the same battle again and again.

    Team Dawis

    Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021

    Leave Skavens alone!!

    Do you have problems to face them in campaign?, not a single skaven faction prevails in the campaing, they always have skavenslaves armies...they are always easy to deal with.

    Do you play with them and you consider them too easy?.....don't use them, and play with something harder, like Norsca.

    See, the first one's already wrong because on vanilla Snikch and Queek do get strong regularly and two, telling me I'm forbidden to play my favorite race just because you like broken OP mechanics is obnoxious gatekeeping and not welcome anywhere.
  • XxXScorpionXxX#2310XxXScorpionXxX#2310 Registered Users Posts: 6,024
    edited March 2021
    These are only campaign nerfs. They need battle nerfs way more. Brood Horror mount and Throt are so unbalanced its borderline ridiculous.
    Post edited by XxXScorpionXxX#2310 on
    Request scorched body textures, and fire death effects. At least 30% of all damage in this game comes from fire sources. Request Fire for the Fire God DLC.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021

    These are only campaign nerfs. They need battle nerfs way more. Brood Horror mount and Throat are so unbalanced its borderline ridiculous.

    There are several threads on the balance forum about this. They've been there since the DLC dropped. We had two patches in the meantime, none of them contained any unit balancing even though some of the issues are even older than the DLC.

    Disappointing.
  • SteelRonin#4832SteelRonin#4832 Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,566
    Pr4vda said:

    Leave Skavens alone!!

    Do you have problems to face them in campaign?, not a single skaven faction prevails in the campaing, they always have skavenslaves armies...they are always easy to deal with.

    Do you play with them and you consider them too easy?.....don't use them, and play with something harder, like Norsca.

    They are an easy faction when you play them. At least the 4 major clans. Im playing as Moulder in Legendary and get a doomstack of RO, abominations and those giant rats in less than 40 turns, kislev is done and half the empire. With lot of cities at level 4 due to their mechanics. Not a single revolt or loyalty problem. And food is not a problem because in a few fights you are back at max capacity.

    But it is also frustating when playing against them (AI). Yes Eshin has a lot of skaven slaves stacks. But on Legendary my few Stacks of dawi beeing ambushed by 4 eshin stacks and I cant do **** against it, or the warp bomb, is frustating because I can not do anything to counter it in some ways. Just camp in my walled settlements and play the same battle again and again.

    Moulder is easy, unless you put Chaos Invasion at high level difficulty......Do you want 20 doomstacks of Chaos in your back?.

    The rest of the clans are just normal to hard (early game).

    The only thing I consider OP from the skavens is the warp lightning spell used by the warlock engineer from the garrisons, they use that spell like they have infinite wind of magic...

    Warp bomb is predictable, easy to deal with, if you forget they can manace from bellow and warp bomb them, it is your fault.

    I have not experienced Dwarfs vs Skavens, I don't play Dwarfs, but in my campaigns, Clan Eshin always lose against Karak Azul and then they lose against Grimgor...
  • SteelRonin#4832SteelRonin#4832 Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,566

    Leave Skavens alone!!

    Do you have problems to face them in campaign?, not a single skaven faction prevails in the campaing, they always have skavenslaves armies...they are always easy to deal with.

    Do you play with them and you consider them too easy?.....don't use them, and play with something harder, like Norsca.

    See, the first one's already wrong because on vanilla Snikch and Queek do get strong regularly and two, telling me I'm forbidden to play my favorite race just because you like broken OP mechanics is obnoxious gatekeeping and not welcome anywhere.
    False, Queek and Snikch don't get strong regularly, Grimgor almost always eat them...All skaven factions are food for others...

    OP broken mechanics? ambush stance?.......come on!!, this mechanic exists since the launch of the game, and noooow is a problem?, really?...Stop autoresolving the ambushes, and play them, you will lose more, making the campaign harder.

    Ambush stance not always work, and some armies compositions don't need to ambush, in fact, ambushing with a ranged army is terrible. It happened to me when facing Chaos, ambushing them was a mistake, because they are a slow army and I had a ranged army..

    When facing skaven.....only the LL has a doom stack that you have to worry about, then, they will spam skaven slaves....not like the Empire that they spam Greatswords....

    The only issue I have against skavens is the Warp Lightning spell, because they use it almost infinitely..
  • Seswatha#7633Seswatha#7633 Registered Users Posts: 4,822
    edited March 2021
    Fighting Skaven on legendary is 100% doable, and if you can't why you're playing legendary? I don't mind the ambush stance nerf though as it's also too strong for the Skaven player and it seems like a lot of people struggle to deal with it.

    But they do need some campaign nerfs to make them more fun to play as, but that should also cover some OP mechanics of the DLC lords, like cellular instability.

    In MP they need some nerfs, specifically PWM, Throt and Brood Horrors, though they are not really unstoppable there, just top tier together with GS and WE (all 3 need some nerfs).

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021



    OP broken mechanics? ambush stance?.......come on!!, this mechanic exists since the launch of the game, and noooow is a problem?, really?...Stop autoresolving the ambushes, and play them, you will lose more, making the campaign harder.

    Ambush stance not always work, and some armies compositions don't need to ambush, in fact, ambushing with a ranged army is terrible. It happened to me when facing Chaos, ambushing them was a mistake, because they are a slow army and I had a ranged army..

    When facing skaven.....only the LL has a doom stack that you have to worry about, then, they will spam skaven slaves....not like the Empire that they spam Greatswords....

    The only issue I have against skavens is the Warp Lightning spell, because they use it almost infinitely..

    In case you didn't notice, but Skaven were in quite a different state at launch than where they are now. Their mid-range firepower was upped so massively that if you get an ambush that puts the enemy army out of formation right in range of those units, you can just obliterate them easily.

    Lightning Strike is already a broken mechanic but Skaven ambush ups the ante massively because:

    -it's available immediately to all Skaven lords
    -it requires no investment of skill points other than to push the ambush chance even higher
    -it results in an ambush battle map with all the advantages that come with it
    -the Skaven player can still bring in reinforcements, which you can't with LS
    -it's the default attacking stance and you aren't even given a choice to have a normal battle, whereas LS is optional

    It simply can't stay like that. Skaven don't need broken tools like that. Saying Skaven do bad on campaign even with this nonsense available to them shows it's not a viable balancing tool anyway, so you're just defeating your own argument.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,398

    Stop autoresolving the ambushes, and play them, you will lose more, making the campaign harder.

    There's probably a valid point here. Skaven get a big boost in autoresolve from ambushing, but ambushing really favours melee-heavy armies with decent leadership (Beastmen, say...) more. In the actual battle, skaven often don't benefit as much from the ambush as the autoresolve would suggest because their strong ranged units don't benefit much from the ambush except in that you have a better chance of pinning down their mobile troops early on, and their generally low-leadership melee troops aren't that good at keeping enemies pinned down - if the enemy is strong enough that you wouldn't have taken them in a fair fight anyway, they're probably strong enough that they'll be able to grind through your ambushing melee units and break out to go for your ranged anyway.

    I think the only times I've actually lost a manually fought battle against a Skaven ambush, it wasn't the ambush itself that did it, it was them having three stacks to my one and I ran out of steam when the third wave hit. Would probably have still lost if it hadn't been an ambush (apart from the fact that if it wasn't an ambush, my second stack would have been involved) - the ambush position just didn't really help them. If anything, it meant I had more time to grind through the ambushing stack before the reinforcements arrived.

    Conversely, I've had a time with Ikit where I ambushed Gor-rok (relatively fairly, I used the "use a relatively weak stack as bait and ambush with a strong stack" trick) and it turned out that he basically had a fullstack of Saurus. This was fairly early in the campaign, so I basically had chaff and ranged units. The logical result of the battle was for my chaff to get eaten by the Saurus and then they'd charge down my ranged units, but the autoresolve put the battle in my favour because it was an ambush.

    Perhaps the autoresolve bonus for ambushing needs to take the types of units into account. Units with long range get little benefit if ambushing, while tough melee units get large bonuses. Conversely, units with long range, particularly artillery, could get really punished by being ambushed in autoresolve, while a stack composed of strong melee units might almost treat being ambushed as just like a regular battle.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    If I play Skaven ambushes myself I just line the Ratling Guns, PWM and Warpfirethrowers up and obliterate the enemy army since the ambush puts them so close to my troops and removes their range deficiency as weakness altogether.

    So they become boring if I play them myself too.

    Sorry, but I'm a Skaven main and I know what they play like.
  • SteelRonin#4832SteelRonin#4832 Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,566

    If I play Skaven ambushes myself I just line the Ratling Guns, PWM and Warpfirethrowers up and obliterate the enemy army since the ambush puts them so close to my troops and removes their range deficiency as weakness altogether.

    So they become boring if I play them myself too.

    Sorry, but I'm a Skaven main and I know what they play like.

    It dependes on the enemy army, if they have monsters, cavalry, flying units, good luck with your weapon teams (plus the fact they are useless in siege battles, except the Poison Wind Mortars)...

    Skaven is my favorite faction, and the ambush stance can be a game saver sometimes, but I always play them and they can be difficult in a lot of ways, is not an Easy Mode....

    The last concern of everyone that loves Skaven is the ambush stance and if that mechanic is OP or not....lol.

    a skaven lord at level 1, being able to ambush others.....well.....by the fact that this rat was able to become a leader in the Skaven world in the first place....is enough for him to be able to ambush at level 1...

    Skaven is the most dynamic faction I have seen, you can have tech armies, monsters armies, a combination of both.....sometimes I put my armies in underway stance so we can fight inside caves, sometimes i put my armies in raid or camp stance so we can fight in open fields, and finally, I hope to get an ambush to that annoying and stupid enemy army that raid and run away with march stance.....is always up to you..
  • Hanzo11Hanzo11 Registered Users Posts: 164

    If I play Skaven ambushes myself I just line the Ratling Guns, PWM and Warpfirethrowers up and obliterate the enemy army since the ambush puts them so close to my troops and removes their range deficiency as weakness altogether.

    So they become boring if I play them myself too.

    Sorry, but I'm a Skaven main and I know what they play like.

    It dependes on the enemy army, if they have monsters, cavalry, flying units, good luck with your weapon teams (plus the fact they are useless in siege battles, except the Poison Wind Mortars)...

    Skaven is my favorite faction, and the ambush stance can be a game saver sometimes, but I always play them and they can be difficult in a lot of ways, is not an Easy Mode....

    The last concern of everyone that loves Skaven is the ambush stance and if that mechanic is OP or not....lol.

    a skaven lord at level 1, being able to ambush others.....well.....by the fact that this rat was able to become a leader in the Skaven world in the first place....is enough for him to be able to ambush at level 1...

    Skaven is the most dynamic faction I have seen, you can have tech armies, monsters armies, a combination of both.....sometimes I put my armies in underway stance so we can fight inside caves, sometimes i put my armies in raid or camp stance so we can fight in open fields, and finally, I hope to get an ambush to that annoying and stupid enemy army that raid and run away with march stance.....is always up to you..
    I think the majority of people here agree with you, that skaven have a wide diverse roster that affords them a great deal of versatility in how they play. That is one reason they really don't need or warrant the offensive ambush in their default movement stance. Their adaptability far surpasses many other factions and that particular mechanic makes playing against them a slog.
  • Geremin#4928Geremin#4928 Registered Users Posts: 51
    I think that in general we don't want to deprive Skaven of the unique mechanic entirely - I am happy to have a faction that is difficult to keep track of, that can attack you in disadvantageous ways etc. I think the point is that the current experience of Skaven ambush stance, in SP campaign, is really frustrating and unfun for the player because there are no ways of mitigating against it. I think the ideas I like the most here that help sort it out are the ones that reduce the power of the ambush stance somewhat while giving players some choices to make about it. So to reiterate those ideas:
    1. Get rid of the 'lightning strike' aspect of the ambush stance and allow nearby defending armies to reinforce - if you walk into Skaven land with one army and don't recon you will get ganked and you'll deserve it - but if you muster a decent force, you can at least bring them in to back you up.
    2. Prevent the ambush stance from triggering an ambush battle against encamped armies - again, if you move more slowly and keep armies together, you won't get surprised; but the Skaven should still be able to set ambushes for armies on the move, so they can still try to pick off clusters of stacks one by one as they move just like all other factions.
    3. Slightly tweak auto-resolve balance of power for all ambushes so it's slightly less tilted in scenarios where the ambushed army is perfectly happy to be ambushed (early game saurus stacks, Chaos factions, Brettonia knight stacks).
    I think the combination of these three tweaks does enough to preserve the uniqueness of Skaven to both play with and against. It gives you as the player tools to avoid the current frustrating nature of ambush stance but it is still something you have to be aware of and strategize for. The encampment point is just sensible - encamped armies should not be able to be ambushed full stop; but because of point 1, you don't need to use encamp to counter Skaven - you can still go full speed into Skaven territory with groups of armies and bait the ambush - you might have to manually fight the battle to avoid the balance of power messing you around but that's just part of the rich tapestry of the game's challenges.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Their mechanice isn't "unique", it's the same offensive ambush the Beastmen have.
  • SteelRonin#4832SteelRonin#4832 Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,566
    Hanzo11 said:

    If I play Skaven ambushes myself I just line the Ratling Guns, PWM and Warpfirethrowers up and obliterate the enemy army since the ambush puts them so close to my troops and removes their range deficiency as weakness altogether.

    So they become boring if I play them myself too.

    Sorry, but I'm a Skaven main and I know what they play like.

    It dependes on the enemy army, if they have monsters, cavalry, flying units, good luck with your weapon teams (plus the fact they are useless in siege battles, except the Poison Wind Mortars)...

    Skaven is my favorite faction, and the ambush stance can be a game saver sometimes, but I always play them and they can be difficult in a lot of ways, is not an Easy Mode....

    The last concern of everyone that loves Skaven is the ambush stance and if that mechanic is OP or not....lol.

    a skaven lord at level 1, being able to ambush others.....well.....by the fact that this rat was able to become a leader in the Skaven world in the first place....is enough for him to be able to ambush at level 1...

    Skaven is the most dynamic faction I have seen, you can have tech armies, monsters armies, a combination of both.....sometimes I put my armies in underway stance so we can fight inside caves, sometimes i put my armies in raid or camp stance so we can fight in open fields, and finally, I hope to get an ambush to that annoying and stupid enemy army that raid and run away with march stance.....is always up to you..
    I think the majority of people here agree with you, that skaven have a wide diverse roster that affords them a great deal of versatility in how they play. That is one reason they really don't need or warrant the offensive ambush in their default movement stance. Their adaptability far surpasses many other factions and that particular mechanic makes playing against them a slog.
    What I know about the lore is that Skaven always try to have advantages over their enemies, they will engage when they know they have better chances to win, ambushing is the result of that idea, and that is why I believe the default stance is that ambush stance, to reflect that part of the lore.

    Removing that mechanic means removing the escense of the Race.

    Someone said that instead of nerfing the mechanic to the ground, there should be a buff for defence against ambush.....In fact, almost 50% of the time I could ambush a well trained Karl Franz.....he was a very good challenge for that reason, playing against the empire in open field, versus hellfire rockets.....is a big nope!!

    For me, AI skaven, with that stance (I always forget it) makes the game more interesting and dynamic.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Hanzo11 said:

    If I play Skaven ambushes myself I just line the Ratling Guns, PWM and Warpfirethrowers up and obliterate the enemy army since the ambush puts them so close to my troops and removes their range deficiency as weakness altogether.

    So they become boring if I play them myself too.

    Sorry, but I'm a Skaven main and I know what they play like.

    It dependes on the enemy army, if they have monsters, cavalry, flying units, good luck with your weapon teams (plus the fact they are useless in siege battles, except the Poison Wind Mortars)...

    Skaven is my favorite faction, and the ambush stance can be a game saver sometimes, but I always play them and they can be difficult in a lot of ways, is not an Easy Mode....

    The last concern of everyone that loves Skaven is the ambush stance and if that mechanic is OP or not....lol.

    a skaven lord at level 1, being able to ambush others.....well.....by the fact that this rat was able to become a leader in the Skaven world in the first place....is enough for him to be able to ambush at level 1...

    Skaven is the most dynamic faction I have seen, you can have tech armies, monsters armies, a combination of both.....sometimes I put my armies in underway stance so we can fight inside caves, sometimes i put my armies in raid or camp stance so we can fight in open fields, and finally, I hope to get an ambush to that annoying and stupid enemy army that raid and run away with march stance.....is always up to you..
    I think the majority of people here agree with you, that skaven have a wide diverse roster that affords them a great deal of versatility in how they play. That is one reason they really don't need or warrant the offensive ambush in their default movement stance. Their adaptability far surpasses many other factions and that particular mechanic makes playing against them a slog.
    What I know about the lore is that Skaven always try to have advantages over their enemies, they will engage when they know they have better chances to win, ambushing is the result of that idea, and that is why I believe the default stance is that ambush stance, to reflect that part of the lore.
    If you want to argue that way then it's also as much lore that Skaven are very good at sabotaging themselves due to short-sighted selfishness, so them pulling off successful schemes constantly shouldn't be a thing.
  • Hanzo11Hanzo11 Registered Users Posts: 164

    Hanzo11 said:

    If I play Skaven ambushes myself I just line the Ratling Guns, PWM and Warpfirethrowers up and obliterate the enemy army since the ambush puts them so close to my troops and removes their range deficiency as weakness altogether.

    So they become boring if I play them myself too.

    Sorry, but I'm a Skaven main and I know what they play like.

    It dependes on the enemy army, if they have monsters, cavalry, flying units, good luck with your weapon teams (plus the fact they are useless in siege battles, except the Poison Wind Mortars)...

    Skaven is my favorite faction, and the ambush stance can be a game saver sometimes, but I always play them and they can be difficult in a lot of ways, is not an Easy Mode....

    The last concern of everyone that loves Skaven is the ambush stance and if that mechanic is OP or not....lol.

    a skaven lord at level 1, being able to ambush others.....well.....by the fact that this rat was able to become a leader in the Skaven world in the first place....is enough for him to be able to ambush at level 1...

    Skaven is the most dynamic faction I have seen, you can have tech armies, monsters armies, a combination of both.....sometimes I put my armies in underway stance so we can fight inside caves, sometimes i put my armies in raid or camp stance so we can fight in open fields, and finally, I hope to get an ambush to that annoying and stupid enemy army that raid and run away with march stance.....is always up to you..
    I think the majority of people here agree with you, that skaven have a wide diverse roster that affords them a great deal of versatility in how they play. That is one reason they really don't need or warrant the offensive ambush in their default movement stance. Their adaptability far surpasses many other factions and that particular mechanic makes playing against them a slog.
    What I know about the lore is that Skaven always try to have advantages over their enemies, they will engage when they know they have better chances to win, ambushing is the result of that idea, and that is why I believe the default stance is that ambush stance, to reflect that part of the lore.
    If you want to argue that way then it's also as much lore that Skaven are very good at sabotaging themselves due to short-sighted selfishness, so them pulling off successful schemes constantly shouldn't be a thing.
    Also in lore the skaven weapon teams (the very ones that are arguably some of the most useful units they have in game) are notoriously unreliable and have been known to malfunction and kill their user. While this is lore accurate, the devs chose not to implement that within the game, likely because it wouldn't be fun for the player. So, while it may be accurate that skaven are sneaky opportunist in lore , giving them the offensive ambush stance is another possible example of something that is lore accurate but detracts from the fun of the experience.

    I understand not wanting to lose the identity of the race by taking away some of their abilities, but I also think you have to consider the overall impact it has within the campaign experience. It's possible they can tweak the mechanic in a way that retains the identity of the race, while making it less frustrating for everyone else. Some good ideas have already been shared on that in this thread.
  • Captain_OzCaptain_Oz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 81
    OP broken mechanics? ambush stance?.......come on!!, this mechanic exists since the launch of the game, and noooow is a problem?, really?...Stop autoresolving the ambushes, and play them, you will lose more, making the campaign harder.

    The problem with the ambush stance is that it presents extremely high strategical value to the skaven player. If the Skaven player consolidates his armies, he has a high chance of consistently outnumbering his opponent. You might still make it against the AI, but imagine playing against a human skaven player. They got access to ludicrous amounts of heroes (+2 assasins/building) that can assasinate+scout and can consistently outnumber your forces through ambush. On top of that you need to scout every single of his/her settlements to ensure that there's not some sneaky army hiding there.

    Taking all of this into consideration, offensive ambushes are providing too much strategical for the Skaven in their current implementation. I don't think that they should be completely removed as some others are arguing for. Instead I think that they should be toned down to ensure that skaven is closer in strength to the other races (in the hands of a human player).
    NEDKIL™ for life! :D
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