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Could Lizardmen as a race beat DE, HE, and WE united?

KingGojiraKingGojira Registered Users Posts: 242
Pre End Times. Lets say Malekith, Phoenix King, and Orion all agree Lizardmen have to be purge. The LM decide Elves have to go as per the plan. Could they do it?

Again this is right before End Times and Elves are on the same page for once.
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Comments

  • TheWattmanTheWattman Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,070
    Depends. Are they fighting in Lustria or on Ulthuan, Naggaroth and Athel Loren?
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 31,067
    Whatever the writer says.

    If we're talking realism DE can't survive sans plot armour so instantly get knocked out. So it's really LM vs HE & WE.
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  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 7,195
    United Elves vs Lizards? I dont like the Lizards odds.

    United Elves, probably should beat any other single faction, until you get to the 'unbeatable' ones, like a Nagash united Undead, or an Archaon United Chaos.
    Campaign Management is for suckers.

  • JirzikJirzik Registered Users Posts: 324
    In game? Nope.
    In books? Writer decide.
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,935
    If the slann all pull on the same string the only force that can do anything against them is chaos without the vortex. Double so if Kroak decides to pull an end times and bring himself back to live.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,968
    Hard to say. In basic military terms, my gut feeling is "no", but if it turns into a war of attrition and the spawning pools are fertile, potentially. Lizardmen are generally so non-interventionist that it's hard to judge just how powerful they are really, but they're generally portrayed as having trouble really securing their borders - they're probably roughly as powerful militarily as the High or Dark Elves individually, and somewhere behind the two combined.

    Magically... it's even harder to judge. If all the Slann cooperated on the task, they could potentially try to sink Ulthuan or something like that, but the Elves (potentially including the mages trapped on the Isle of the Dead) would probably magically resist that. You'd probably end up with both Ulthuan and Lustria ruined while Chaos laughs.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,299
    I don’t think the Elves could survive Lustria. Even the Dragons were forced to leave. Plus Slann defending a Temple City/channeling nexus/loci of power are nigh unstoppable.

    But I don’t think the Lizardmen could really do much to invade the Elves either. They aren’t a naval power and have seem to lost most of their ‘teleportation’ abilities outside of extreme circumstances.

    The war would be pretty stale-matey.
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 7,195
    Draxynnic said:

    You'd probably end up with both Ulthuan and Lustria ruined while Chaos laughs.

    "Just as planned."
    Campaign Management is for suckers.

  • KingGojiraKingGojira Registered Users Posts: 242
    edited April 1
    In plots LM seem godlike. Holding of Chaos with a laugh, freaking spaceships, reshape continents screwing Dawrfs over, and needing a falling moon to burn them out.

    Outside Sword of Kaine and some elven gods I just dont know what Elves could do as Elven lore does not have such epic nonsense. Does it?
  • manpersalmanpersal Registered Users Posts: 2,312

    In plots LM seem godlike. Holding of Chaos with a laugh, freaking spaceships, reshape continents screwing Dawrfs over, and needing a falling moon to burn them out.

    Outside Sword of Kaine and some elven gods I just dont know what Elves could do as Elven lore does not have such epic nonsense. Does it?

    SoA spam, evidently. But if you already had your mind made, why did you ask?
  • NiggeyNiggey Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 161
    edited April 1
    With my relativ limited lore knowledge I would agree with the other posters, that it would depend who invades who. The place of the battle could be a deciding factor.
    Just two things I thought about this interesting topic:
    First, do we know how many WE are even there? I always thought they are one of the races with the lowest population and are only a force to be reckon with if you try to invade their woods, because then they are highly effective. If they are all meeting on an open battleground, what percentage would the WE even be of the total elve force?

    Second, I think the true power level of the Slann could also be the deciding factor. Didnt Mazdamundi alone lower the impact of the moon droping on the planet reduce significantly (granted, this is end times...)?
    I would like to think that even without the physical battles, Mazdamundi, Kroak and all Slann together could be devastating in terms of their magical force.
  • CrosswireCrosswire Registered Users Posts: 211
    edited April 1
    In lore Mazadamundi woke up one day, decided to move some mountains and accidentally wrecked the Dwarvern Empire. Other Slann raised force fields that held off constantly respawning demons for centuries.

    The Slann only do things if the Great Plan tells them though, otherwise they basically remain passive. If they found out the Great Plan told them to sink Ulthuan they could and would do it and there is nothing the elves could do about it.
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 8,058
    Ants meet Slann

    Ants gone

    Eez


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  • ArsenicArsenic Registered Users Posts: 6,780
    Surely if the Lizardmen were defeated, the warding around the Vortex would fail, wiping the Elves out anyway?
    For in spite of all temptations. To belong to other nations. He remains an Englishman.
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 5,108
    Arsenic said:

    Surely if the Lizardmen were defeated, the warding around the Vortex would fail, wiping the Elves out anyway?

    Yeah, but the elves, even the Loremasters of Hoeth aren't even aware of the Great Warding boosting the Vortex.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    Me when I see a LL character implemented as a LH.

    Bring naval battles to Warhammer CA!

  • ArsenicArsenic Registered Users Posts: 6,780
    Wyvax said:

    Arsenic said:

    Surely if the Lizardmen were defeated, the warding around the Vortex would fail, wiping the Elves out anyway?

    Yeah, but the elves, even the Loremasters of Hoeth aren't even aware of the Great Warding boosting the Vortex.
    You'd think they'd cotton on something was up though, if during a hypothetical genocidal war against the Lizardmen, the Vortex started destabilising as the Lizardmen fell. Or they'd capture a city, find a few plaques and go "Hang on.." when they see the Vortex depicted on them, and think better of war with the scalies.

    But anyway, for the sake of argument, I suspect the Lizardmen would win, and even if somehow the combined Elves did, they'd have wiped themselves and everyone else out anyway, when the Warding fell, bringing down The Vortex and letting Chaos back in en masse.
    For in spite of all temptations. To belong to other nations. He remains an Englishman.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 6,041
    It depends on the circumstances, but you only need all the Slaan to focus on sinking Naggaroth and Ulthuan and then focus their attention to Athel Loren, the only reason the Slaan don't destroy the world is because that is not in the Great Plan, but just Kroak when he was alive was almost a God in itself, whit how powerful he was.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 2,002
    Have you seen what happens to cold blooded reptiles in cold climates?

    Lizardmen would never defeat the Druchii.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 2,002

    Whatever the writer says.

    If we're talking realism DE can't survive sans plot armour so instantly get knocked out. So it's really LM vs HE & WE.

    Yes, you sound definitely as a true DE fan.
  • overtaker40overtaker40 Registered Users Posts: 255

    Whatever the writer says.

    If we're talking realism DE can't survive sans plot armour so instantly get knocked out. So it's really LM vs HE & WE.

    this made me genuinely laugh out loud
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 6,444
    If the all the Slann fully awaken, they can tear apart the entire world...
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,968
    How much the High Elves knew about what the Slann were doing depends a lot on the source and the editions. The Lizardmen perspective tends to claim that the Elves have no idea. But I recall finding sources that indicate that some of the wisest of the White Tower realise that there's something else beyond the Elves working on keeping the wardings up, and that the Asur definitely know that there's something related to the Old Ones in Lustria and that it's better not disturbed.
    Crosswire said:

    In lore Mazadamundi woke up one day, decided to move some mountains and accidentally wrecked the Dwarvern Empire. Other Slann raised force fields that held off constantly respawning demons for centuries.

    The Slann only do things if the Great Plan tells them though, otherwise they basically remain passive. If they found out the Great Plan told them to sink Ulthuan they could and would do it and there is nothing the elves could do about it.

    Wasn't just Mazdamundi, or even just the Slann in general. The shift wasn't supposed to be as destructive as it was, but it combined with a Skaven tunneling device activating at the same time causing the latter to go haywire and cause massive earthquakes (that also came close to destroying Skavenblight). Neither the Lizardmen nor the Skaven know about this, though, so they both think it was entirely their own doing.

    Causing earthquakes is definitely within their capabilities, but remember that the dwarfs don't have a White Tower or a still-able-to-act-in-case-of-a-serious-enough-magical-assault Caledor Dragontamer. Slann are individually more powerful than all but a handful of Archmages, but there's still probably only a hundred or so of them - the Elves might be able to hold them off or even beat them through sheer numbers. We've seen the Elves pull off some solid magical works, after all, including animating an entire archipelago.

    Ultimately, though, as I intimated before, Chaos would be the ultimate winner. If the Elves destroyed the Lizardmen, then... well, the Elves can maintain Old One sites to an extent (it's why the Lizardmen tolerate High Elves living in some of them), but probably not as well as the Lizardmen. If the Slann used geomancy to wreck Ulthuan, then they'd also wreck the waystone network in Ulthuan in the process even if they don't disturb the Isle of the Dead, and that would likely be even worse on the Vortex than disrupting the Geomantic Web.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 2,002
    edited April 1
    Imagine Morathi, Teclis, Ariel, Alarielle, the White Tower of Hoeth and the Dark Covenant united and acting together in a ritual to kill the Slann. And aided by Caledor Dragontamer and his fellow archmages.

    Malekith commanding the armies in the defense of the mages, and Tyrion aiding and protecting him. In the best scenario for the lizards the Vortex is destroyed. But Malekith got experience in daemonology: he is able to command even the strongest Greater Daemons. This was the ultimate goal when the Sundering toke place. He and Morathi could taught the rest of elves how to command the daemons.

    Orion, Alith Anar, Shadowblade and their troops marching through Lustria to kill the Slann in their own cities while they are centered in the magic rituals.

    Reptiles don’t get a chance.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited April 1



    Reptiles don’t get a chance.

    The DE will backstab the HE sooner or later. Their combined war effort will fall apart by itself and end in total chaos.

    Reptiles stand a huge chance.
  • Beef545Beef545 Registered Users Posts: 764
    Lizarsds stand no chances even against a single elven faction. If we are to consider United Elves, it would have been a massacre.
    The age of Men is over. The time of the Troll has come.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Beef545 said:

    Lizarsds stand no chances even against a single elven faction. If we are to consider United Elves, it would have been a massacre.

    Yes, many elves would be massacred. By the lizards and their infighting. Malekith and Morathi are about as trustworthy as Skaven and just as short-sighted selfish, they'd ruin it for everyone.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 2,002



    Reptiles don’t get a chance.

    The DE will backstab the HE sooner or later. Their combined war effort will fall apart by itself and end in total chaos.

    Reptiles stand a huge chance.
    Why would they backstab their new subjects? Malekith would forbid it. The elvendom united under the will of its rightful king would be invincible.
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 8,058
    Like a few senior Slanns with the same plan in mind is all it would take really.

    The knife-ears are such an underdog in this instance it's not even funny.


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  • Hanzo11Hanzo11 Registered Users Posts: 143
    I think as others have said, the place the conflict took place would be an important factor. The lizardmen traveling to their enemy would place them at a disadvantage. This is true for several reasons. Ulthuan is difficult to reach without casualties, it is also very defensively advantageous. Same for athel loren. The wood elves have won many conflicts by using gorilla warfare and using the shifting woods as a way of dividing and disorienting enemies. If the elves went on the offensive, the lizarsmen would have a heavily fortified temple city for defense. I think overall it's too tough to call. It also would depend on overall numerical advantages. Elven forces uniting is a substantial force but they aren't the most numerous race. I don't recall seeing any information on how many lizardmen exist and in lore it tends to all depend on how many the authors need for the plot to work.
  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 4,900
    It really, really depends on just a few things. How well do the Elves get along, as even in End Times they faced Civil War over being unified, and how many Slann are contributing to the fight back. I mean fully committed, not just coasting along acting on whim.

    If all the Elves across the Warhammer world could come together as a single mind and push forward at a pace the Lizardmen can't react to, Elves win. They'd have to all be in perfect lockstep with each other, as any delays just helps the Lizardmen set themselves up. If the Slann wake up en masse due to the Elves incursion, and all simultaneously work towards stopping them, fights over. They'd sink Ulthuan with a wave of their toad appendages, raise yet another couple more mountains in Naggaroth to desolate the Druchii, and turn Athel Loren into a desert. A few Slann once caused the event the Dwarfs refer to as the Time of Woes because they just decided the worlds tectonic plates needed realignment for example. Now imagine if they intended to hurt the target.

    All this being said, my moneys on the Elves. It is beyond difficult to get the Slann to get up and actually do something meaningful, and even when they do wake up there's no guarantee they'll exert much force. The Slann can will themselves back from death if they so desired, and yet wait until its far too late to even try. As a result, a single Skaven clan currently has them on the ropes in Lustria interior. Clan Pestilens is slowly but surely winning the fight for Lustria, I imagine a coordinated invasion from every Elf would manage at least the same.
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