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Will there be skaven units with rifles for upcoming warhammer 3?

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  • Otto_von_SaxonyOtto_von_Saxony Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 10

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    In a world of magic and devastating magical explosions, there is absolutely no reason that any faction ever came up with formation warfare....
    Most battles in warhammer are still fought with large amounts of regular troops though. The amount of spellcasters and such in the lore was always a lot lower than on the TT or in other games. So of course they have formations, most races use them. Imperial detachments, dwarf shield walls, bretonnian lance formation, elven phalanxes etc.
    There are also other stuff than magic which would have led to a world without formation warfare. The fact that there are threats like Trolls, Giants, Ogres, Minotaurs, even Orcs and Beastmen, that are all so massively bigger, stronger and tougher than humans, would simply mean that you wouldn't pack troops together.. Though.. Ogres, Minotaurs and the others (if they had the mind for it) would probably have invented formation warfare, since such a formation would be almost literally impenetrable for any enemy of a smaller size than themselves.. So to revise my original point: There is no way that any human-sized or smaller people in the Warhammer world would have ever invented formation warfare..
    I don't know why you are saying that they "would not" have invented it, we know for a fact that they did invent it. There are countless examples of the different races employing formations in battle. And especially when faced with bigger and stronger opponents, formation are important. Spread out and fighting individually humans would stand little chance against bigger and stronger foes like gors or orcs, but in tight formation and with proper discipline they can support each other and beat the more powerful foes.

    Walls of spears and pikes would also work very well against big creatures like trolls and such, they can't block all the strikes at the same time and running into spears will have them impale themselves. If the smaller guys were spread out the big guys would just walk straight through them, run them down with their superior mass.
    The point is that they WOULDN'T have if we were looking at it realistically. There are simply too many threats that punish you for standing in tightly formed formations for it to ever become a relevant form of warfare. A single swipe of a Dragon's tail would obliterate half an army. A well placed fireball would incinierate a battleline center, leading to it crumble if a charge immediately followed. The point is that Warhammer is not a realistic world, so one shouldn't apply our world's logic to it. For this, it is important to understand the difference between realistic and realism..
    Again, magic users and huge monsters are much more rare in the lore. Most battles are fought between roughly human-sized people, and in those battles formations are a big advantage. It's not like elephants rendered formations obselete either, nor did cannons for hundreds of years. Different threats would require different formations and strategies of course, but it's pretty obvious that they would still use formations in warhammer. It's simply superior to not doing so in most scenarios.

    And knowing of the different threats in the world, they would develop the more effective strategies to fight certain foes, which in some cases would mean spreading out and abandoning formation. Normally they would use them though. And in a world with constant warfare, it's very obvious they would work to gain any advantage they could. And as the order races are generally physically weaker and in smaller numbers than the destruction forces, but better at learning and adapting, formations are a natural consequence.
    Actually elephants did showcase exactly why packed formations were a bad idea against a heavier foe... Which is why when Elephants charged, the formation broke up, spread out and let the elephants pass between them...... So if you then imagine that Elephants were a species of intellegent creatures, and that they also had opposable thumbs.... Then you can probably see, that humanity wouldn't stand a chance in warfare... Of course if pikes were more prevalent in the Warhammer world, then it might have been a different story.. The problem then of course would be, that a human with a pike is still obliterated by an Ogre with a pike...

    And we continued to use formation warfare for centuries after the introduction of artillery, because for the first few centuries after the introduction of artillery, said artillery wasn't actually being used against the formation of troops, since they werent effective weapons for that job. After we started to get more reliable and effective artillery, we did have a few centuries (two and a half maybe), where the conservative stupidity of humanity maintained their hold on the formation warfare. But once we got proper rifling that immediately disapepared.. Only to be replaced by the equally horrible trench-warfare.

    Also, magic users are actually quite common. Just not in the Empire. All Greenskin WAAGHS are sure to contain at least a few Shamans, Bray-Herds will have Bray-Shamans, Skaven got their seers and warlocks. Magic is actually quite common, to the level that it is widely accepted in all the cultures as a fact of life.

    SImply put: Realistically humanity would never even have gotten a chance to reach a point where formation warfare could be relevant, as all the other vastly physically superior intellegent species on the planet would have obliterated them long ago.
    Your extremely wrong. We continued to use formation warfare until machine guns /repeating rifles because until machine guns/repeating rifle melee shock action was a legitimately deadly threat in a straight fight with infantry in loose order. When faced with shock action the way you survive is to be in a massed formation.

    Arguably something as big as an elephant makes infantry formations unviable, but most monsters in warhammer are significantly smaller than an elephant - an Ogre f.e. is likely lighter than a knight on a barded warhorse, definitely moves slower, and almost certainly is less deadly than a couched lance strike (lances could easily be longer than pikes/spears). What defeats cavalry irl? Disciplined infantry formations with polearms (or repeating rifles); presumably the same is true against ogres and trolls.

    Also when talking about pike formations discipline matters more than physical strength, so Ogres/Trolls/Orks are likely to be rubbish pikemen as per lore descriptions they are not disciplined at all. Even if they were, it would be suicidal to send arquebusiers in loose order against any of them, since in a 1v1 fight *size and strength are everything*.

    Tl:dr disciplined formations are a) safer and b) mitigate strength and size disadvantages.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,964
    In terms of formation warfare:

    By my understanding, there were two reasons why formations lasted as long as they did despite the presence of gunpowder weaponry and artillery:

    The first is communications and control. Before the invention of portable communication devices, controlling a dispersed force at much more than a squad level was pretty much impossible. You needed to cluster your forces together so that pre-20th-century communication methods would actually suffice to keep that many troops organised. Formations might mean your units are vulnerable to area attacks such as artillery and musket volleys, but such vulnerability is still better than having an uncontrollable dispersed mess. Mind you, some formations are better than others, and the British were using long line formations that were less vulnerable to artillery and musket fire against infantry and artillery during the Napoleonic wars. Which brings me to the second, more important reason:

    Cavalry. People tend to underestimate the importance of cavalry in the age of gunpowder, but until the invention of automatic weapons, cavalry could still generally charge down an infantry force and get into melee faster than the infantry force can shoot down enough of them to break them. Dispersed infantry would get absolutely annihilated by cavalry, but solid blocks, especially if they had bayonets (a 19th century musket and bayonet was effectively a short pike for all intents and purposes) were still fairly effective at fending them off.

    (There were a few other reasons, such as increasing concentration of fire and morale effects, but those are the main ones)

    So in Napoleonic times, formations depended on what the main threat was considered to be. The British infantry preferred to deploy in semi-dispersed lines if they weren't worried about cavalry, but if there was cavalry close enough to be a credible threat, they'd go back into blocks. Which meant that in practice, cavalry got few kills themselves, but forcing the enemy to remain in tight-packed formations due to the threat of what cavalry could do to dispersed infantry meant that musket volleys and artillery could have a bigger effect.

    Which does mean that it's likely that, even in the face of fireballs, artillery, and monsters, tight-packed formations might still be the norm in a Warhammer setting. Because magic-users capable of decimating units are rare, and cavalry is common... and when it comes to big monsters that actually want to kill you rather than being happy to run through the gaps in the formation, you probably want to be able to pack together enough weapons to at least have the chance to serve as a real deterrent rather than letting the monster pick people off one by one. Like the Napoleonic British infantry, however, it might depend on just what the force is more worried about... and just how much the army CAN disperse before command and control breaks down.

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except that skaven weapon teams already pretty much act like less-disciplined detachments. They don't perform coordinated charges or make stand-and-shoot reactions on behalf of attached units, but there's still the general tercio principle of having a big melee unit that can defend the ranged unit, and a ranged unit that can provide fire support. Except that instead of the ranged unit being a detachment of handgunners, it's a ratling gun.

    Regardless, there does seem to be something that's causing the skaven to rely on quality (for the skaven value of 'quality') over quantity when it comes to guns. I've given a couple of possibilities for what that might be.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,574

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    In a world of magic and devastating magical explosions, there is absolutely no reason that any faction ever came up with formation warfare....
    Most battles in warhammer are still fought with large amounts of regular troops though. The amount of spellcasters and such in the lore was always a lot lower than on the TT or in other games. So of course they have formations, most races use them. Imperial detachments, dwarf shield walls, bretonnian lance formation, elven phalanxes etc.
    There are also other stuff than magic which would have led to a world without formation warfare. The fact that there are threats like Trolls, Giants, Ogres, Minotaurs, even Orcs and Beastmen, that are all so massively bigger, stronger and tougher than humans, would simply mean that you wouldn't pack troops together.. Though.. Ogres, Minotaurs and the others (if they had the mind for it) would probably have invented formation warfare, since such a formation would be almost literally impenetrable for any enemy of a smaller size than themselves.. So to revise my original point: There is no way that any human-sized or smaller people in the Warhammer world would have ever invented formation warfare..
    I don't know why you are saying that they "would not" have invented it, we know for a fact that they did invent it. There are countless examples of the different races employing formations in battle. And especially when faced with bigger and stronger opponents, formation are important. Spread out and fighting individually humans would stand little chance against bigger and stronger foes like gors or orcs, but in tight formation and with proper discipline they can support each other and beat the more powerful foes.

    Walls of spears and pikes would also work very well against big creatures like trolls and such, they can't block all the strikes at the same time and running into spears will have them impale themselves. If the smaller guys were spread out the big guys would just walk straight through them, run them down with their superior mass.
    The point is that they WOULDN'T have if we were looking at it realistically. There are simply too many threats that punish you for standing in tightly formed formations for it to ever become a relevant form of warfare. A single swipe of a Dragon's tail would obliterate half an army. A well placed fireball would incinierate a battleline center, leading to it crumble if a charge immediately followed. The point is that Warhammer is not a realistic world, so one shouldn't apply our world's logic to it. For this, it is important to understand the difference between realistic and realism..
    Again, magic users and huge monsters are much more rare in the lore. Most battles are fought between roughly human-sized people, and in those battles formations are a big advantage. It's not like elephants rendered formations obselete either, nor did cannons for hundreds of years. Different threats would require different formations and strategies of course, but it's pretty obvious that they would still use formations in warhammer. It's simply superior to not doing so in most scenarios.

    And knowing of the different threats in the world, they would develop the more effective strategies to fight certain foes, which in some cases would mean spreading out and abandoning formation. Normally they would use them though. And in a world with constant warfare, it's very obvious they would work to gain any advantage they could. And as the order races are generally physically weaker and in smaller numbers than the destruction forces, but better at learning and adapting, formations are a natural consequence.
    Actually elephants did showcase exactly why packed formations were a bad idea against a heavier foe... Which is why when Elephants charged, the formation broke up, spread out and let the elephants pass between them...... So if you then imagine that Elephants were a species of intellegent creatures, and that they also had opposable thumbs.... Then you can probably see, that humanity wouldn't stand a chance in warfare... Of course if pikes were more prevalent in the Warhammer world, then it might have been a different story.. The problem then of course would be, that a human with a pike is still obliterated by an Ogre with a pike...

    And we continued to use formation warfare for centuries after the introduction of artillery, because for the first few centuries after the introduction of artillery, said artillery wasn't actually being used against the formation of troops, since they werent effective weapons for that job. After we started to get more reliable and effective artillery, we did have a few centuries (two and a half maybe), where the conservative stupidity of humanity maintained their hold on the formation warfare. But once we got proper rifling that immediately disapepared.. Only to be replaced by the equally horrible trench-warfare.

    Also, magic users are actually quite common. Just not in the Empire. All Greenskin WAAGHS are sure to contain at least a few Shamans, Bray-Herds will have Bray-Shamans, Skaven got their seers and warlocks. Magic is actually quite common, to the level that it is widely accepted in all the cultures as a fact of life.

    SImply put: Realistically humanity would never even have gotten a chance to reach a point where formation warfare could be relevant, as all the other vastly physically superior intellegent species on the planet would have obliterated them long ago.
    Your extremely wrong. We continued to use formation warfare until machine guns /repeating rifles because until machine guns/repeating rifle melee shock action was a legitimately deadly threat in a straight fight with infantry in loose order. When faced with shock action the way you survive is to be in a massed formation.

    Arguably something as big as an elephant makes infantry formations unviable, but most monsters in warhammer are significantly smaller than an elephant - an Ogre f.e. is likely lighter than a knight on a barded warhorse, definitely moves slower, and almost certainly is less deadly than a couched lance strike (lances could easily be longer than pikes/spears). What defeats cavalry irl? Disciplined infantry formations with polearms (or repeating rifles); presumably the same is true against ogres and trolls.

    Also when talking about pike formations discipline matters more than physical strength, so Ogres/Trolls/Orks are likely to be rubbish pikemen as per lore descriptions they are not disciplined at all. Even if they were, it would be suicidal to send arquebusiers in loose order against any of them, since in a 1v1 fight *size and strength are everything*.

    Tl:dr disciplined formations are a) safer and b) mitigate strength and size disadvantages.
    Wow... Such conviction, yet so incredibly wrong. It is an amazing combination you got yourself there kiddo.

    First of all, as I also pointed out, we kept using formation warfare, until the enemy weaponry simply became too deadly to such formations. If you are going to claim that trench warfare is formation warfare, then you can kindly make use of the closest exit and never participate in such a disucssion as this ever again.

    The mai reason taht we abbandoned formation warfare was simply because the weapons became too destructive compared to the mobility of our forces. If a formation of 100 men are mowed down in seconds, then they are no longer combat effective...

    Also Ogres are EASILY more heavy than a horse, and they will also be wearing armour, making them EASILY more heavy than an armoured horse. And what on God's sweet green Earth do you thk the OGRES will use against humans with pikes? You (probably didn't) guessed it! LARGER PIKES! Humans are so pathetically outclassed by all of these types of creatures, that it simply wouldn't even be a contest...

    Also no... Formations doesn't mitigate strength differences... Yes, it allows you to prevent others of SIMILAR strenght from pushing through. But if humans tried to form a shieldwall against something like an Ogre or Minotaur, they would be instantly obliterated by the force of the swings from such creatures. Human would have absolutely no hope of blocking attacks (the main purpose of the shieldwall) from such creature, and each strike would shatter bones and more likely instantly kill any human on the recieving end. Yes, pikes would help in these cases (there is a reason that they pretty much countered cavalry charges), but, exactly as in the real world, the counter to the pike formation, was to simply go around it or bombard it with explosives..... So even, erronously, assuming that Ogres wouldn't have easy access to magical bombardments, the light troops protecting the flanks of the pike formation would still instantly be obliterated by the Ogres, who would then tear through the flank of the pikes, and then all hell would break loose and humanity would once more facing a very easy and pathetic extinction...

    But hell... If you want to stand around in a tighly packed formation when the enemy commonly use the medieval fantasy equivalent of A-10 Thunderbolts (Dragons and Wyverns), then be my guest..
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,546
    Draxynnic said:

    I

    Regardless, there does seem to be something that's causing the skaven to rely on quality (for the skaven value of 'quality') over quantity when it comes to guns. I've given a couple of possibilities for what that might be.

    Well, a Skaven gunline in the form of 18th century lines would mean Skaven would have to walk close up to the enemy and expose themselves to hostile volleys for extended periods of time, hence why a Tercio, which rotates its shooty parts from front to back and is always backed up by a large body of melee troops would be perfect for Skaven instead.


  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,876

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
    In that case they'd never be able to pose much of a threat to any organized military ever. If their military was as disorganized as you claim it to be, they'd simply never get anything done outside of raids on unprotected assets.

    So of course that's just exaggeration since the Skaven actually are a major threat in the Warhammer world, so they must have a modicum of discipline and organization to allow the strategic use of armies with combined arms.
    They pose a threat mostly because they are so numerous and their carelessly pushing of technology, magic and biology to its limits. They aren't dangerous because they make highly disciplined armies that meet threats in open combat but exactly because they go after unprotected and weakened assets. In combat discipin they are more like the greenskins and beastmen lousy and with a surprising tendency to run quickly if things don't go their way.
    Nope, if they were nothing but a disorganized rabble they'd never be able to sustain any sort of military campaign. It's actually an in-universe flaw to underestimate both Skaven and Greenskins as just being thugs who come in big numbers. Skaven military warfare is actually fairly complicated thanks to how disparate their forces and assets are, so being able to successfully organize that into a competent fighting force, and that happens regularly enough to make a difference, means they can't be just a bunch of solipsistic cowards.
    They aren't disorganized rabble but compared to the proper trained armies the human nations field they aren't disciplined. Its an in universe flaw to expect greenskins to just be charging idiots. That same stigma does not apply to the skaven the empire might be dismissive of them but other nations do not mistake skavens for greenskins and treat them accordingly. Skaven are at their best when they can make it not a straight fight because they lack the discipline and durability to match front against front with most of their enemies.
  • Otto_von_SaxonyOtto_von_Saxony Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 10

    Wow... Such conviction, yet so incredibly wrong. It is an amazing combination you got yourself there kiddo.

    First of all, as I also pointed out, we kept using formation warfare, until the enemy weaponry simply became too deadly to such formations. If you are going to claim that trench warfare is formation warfare, then you can kindly make use of the closest exit and never participate in such a disucssion as this ever again.
    I never mentioned trench warfare so I dont know why you added that. Just to be rude?

    The mai reason taht we abbandoned formation warfare was simply because the weapons became too destructive compared to the mobility of our forces. If a formation of 100 men are mowed down in seconds, then they are no longer combat effective...
    Right, they were abandon because shock action is largely obsolete unless you are willing to take horrific losses or the enemy is totally surprised/incompetent.

    That said shock actions still happened in ww2 and will still happen and they do hinge on formations, but as stated you need more or less complete surprise. See the last few cavalry charges that have occured.

    Also Ogres are EASILY more heavy than a horse, and they will also be wearing armour, making them EASILY more heavy than an armoured horse. And what on God's sweet green Earth do you thk the OGRES will use against humans with pikes? You (probably didn't) guessed it! LARGER PIKES! Humans are so pathetically outclassed by all of these types of creatures, that it simply wouldn't even be a contest...
    Ogres are what 8-9 feat tall, and a bit thicker than a human, but otherwise humanoid? No way they weight more than 500-600 lbs, add 30% for armour so 800 lbs. A barder warhorse + armoured knight is easily 1800 lbs.

    Sure Ogres use pikes, but canon there are fewer Ogres than humans so you use a pike formation and envelop them.

    Also no... Formations doesn't mitigate strength differences... Yes, it allows you to prevent others of SIMILAR strenght from pushing through. But if humans tried to form a shieldwall against something like an Ogre or Minotaur, they would be instantly obliterated by the force of the swings from such creatures. Human would have absolutely no hope of blocking attacks (the main purpose of the shieldwall) from such creature, and each strike would shatter bones and more likely instantly kill any human on the recieving end. Yes, pikes would help in these cases (there is a reason that they pretty much countered cavalry charges), but, exactly as in the real world, the counter to the pike formation, was to simply go around it or bombard it with explosives..... So even, erronously, assuming that Ogres wouldn't have easy access to magical bombardments, the light troops protecting the flanks of the pike formation would still instantly be obliterated by the Ogres, who would then tear through the flank of the pikes, and then all hell would break loose and humanity would once more facing a very easy and pathetic extinction...
    Shield walls are not strength on strength pushing matches thats nonsense, they are about using shields to deny good targets to the enemy as you poke them with spears/polearms. Pikes replace the shield with a longer polearm but its the same idea.

    The light troops would be obliterated because they are in loose order, that is exactly why formations are not obsolete.

    If bombardment magic is trivial/ubiquitous then you just get Napoleonic warfare not modern fire and maneuver teams. If we have magic as powerful and cheap as modern artillery then war would just be light cavalry mounted mages. Ogres would be hopelessly out matched there.

    Final point here, pike formations can form pike squares defeating a trivial flanking maneuver which would be expected in this case. Even with bombardment magic youd just get a napoleonic square formation (i.e. hollow center).

    But hell... If you want to stand around in a tighly packed formation when the enemy commonly use the medieval fantasy equivalent of A-10 Thunderbolts (Dragons and Wyverns), then be my guest..
    A-10s are orders of magnitude better than a Dragon. Further, dragons and wyverns are rare in lore and guess what magic exists so you just explode the odd dragon out of the air. Its a big slow moving target! Nothing could be easier to hit then that.

    If magic is so good that human shock action is obsolete, then that is true everywhere. If all shock action is obsolete then humans have the advantage because in pseudo-modern warfare a 9ft tall ogre wouldnt be able to do fire and maneuver as well as a regular dude.

    Modern war is basically light infantry spot targets to get obliterated by burst fire simultaneously contact self propelled artillery, ballistic missiles, stealth bombers, etc.

    However, unless your suggesting TWW2 magic/missiles are under powered, we can confirm that shock action does work and most battles are won by it. Tabletop was the same situation. So your whole argument is not only historically reductionist but also ignores actual gameplay and lore of the setting.

    But eh, continue to be aggressive and rude - very persuasive way to win an argument on the internet.
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 4,477
    We already have Skaven with rifles, hombre.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,930
    Bonutz said:

    We already have Skaven with rifles, hombre.

    I guess it would be nice if they were a little more diverse in their roster.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,574



    But eh, continue to be aggressive and rude - very persuasive way to win an argument on the internet.

    You started it kiddo.. If you can't take the heat, then get out of the forge...

    But, before you go, let us tear apart your arguement, shall we?



    The mai reason taht we abbandoned formation warfare was simply because the weapons became too destructive compared to the mobility of our forces. If a formation of 100 men are mowed down in seconds, then they are no longer combat effective...
    Right, they were abandon because shock action is largely obsolete unless you are willing to take horrific losses or the enemy is totally surprised/incompetent.

    That said shock actions still happened in ww2 and will still happen and they do hinge on formations, but as stated you need more or less complete surprise. See the last few cavalry charges that have occured.
    I am GUESSING that by shock action, you are actually refering to shock tactics. Shock tactics has not yet gone out of favour and sees continued use (though with the increasing obselete nature of tanks, the future of shock tactics is open). Shock tactics basically just involve the rapid and overwhelming advance of forces. They don't actually need to make contact with the enemy, but rather just has to push the enemy out. In pre-mdoern times this was achieved by heavy cavalry. In modern times the shock tactic is now achieved by the battle tanks (arguably the replacement of the cavalry, but that is another discussion). Shock tactic does NOT require surprise. It simply requires to present an overwhelming force. A formation of cavalry that charges frontally against a line can equally achieve the needed shock as a surprise attack. The reason taht cavalry charges in particular fell out of favour was because they became impossible to achieve due to the enemy firepower (again, the advance in firepower outpaced the advance in mobility).



    Also Ogres are EASILY more heavy than a horse, and they will also be wearing armour, making them EASILY more heavy than an armoured horse. And what on God's sweet green Earth do you thk the OGRES will use against humans with pikes? You (probably didn't) guessed it! LARGER PIKES! Humans are so pathetically outclassed by all of these types of creatures, that it simply wouldn't even be a contest...
    Ogres are what 8-9 feat tall, and a bit thicker than a human, but otherwise humanoid? No way they weight more than 500-600 lbs, add 30% for armour so 800 lbs. A barder warhorse + armoured knight is easily 1800 lbs.

    Sure Ogres use pikes, but canon there are fewer Ogres than humans so you use a pike formation and envelop them.
    Ogres are about 9-12 feet tall more like, and is easily 10-20 times the bodymass of humans. An Ogre would easily weigh the same as a horse, and usually probably even more. A knight in armour in full charge would pose a threat to an Ogre, if the Ogre just stood there and took it. However, ALL Ogres are each the equivalent of a mounted knight in mass(ish), which means that their formation warriors are an order of magnitude superior to comparatively pathetic humans. If we then also add in the actual cavalry of the Ogres, and humans would be better off just throwing themselves upon their own swords... Humans are simply outclassed at every physical level by Ogres.



    Also no... Formations doesn't mitigate strength differences... Yes, it allows you to prevent others of SIMILAR strenght from pushing through. But if humans tried to form a shieldwall against something like an Ogre or Minotaur, they would be instantly obliterated by the force of the swings from such creatures. Human would have absolutely no hope of blocking attacks (the main purpose of the shieldwall) from such creature, and each strike would shatter bones and more likely instantly kill any human on the recieving end. Yes, pikes would help in these cases (there is a reason that they pretty much countered cavalry charges), but, exactly as in the real world, the counter to the pike formation, was to simply go around it or bombard it with explosives..... So even, erronously, assuming that Ogres wouldn't have easy access to magical bombardments, the light troops protecting the flanks of the pike formation would still instantly be obliterated by the Ogres, who would then tear through the flank of the pikes, and then all hell would break loose and humanity would once more facing a very easy and pathetic extinction...
    Shield walls are not strength on strength pushing matches thats nonsense, they are about using shields to deny good targets to the enemy as you poke them with spears/polearms. Pikes replace the shield with a longer polearm but its the same idea.
    That is actually exactly what a Shieldwall is... If you think they jsut stand there and jab at eachotehr, then you aren't paying enough attention to the historical sources... maintaining a shieldwall is extremely physically taxing becuase the enemy is obviosuly pushing back at them... How you can even try to suggest otherwise is beyond me...


    The light troops would be obliterated because they are in loose order, that is exactly why formations are not obsolete.

    No.. They would be obliterated becuase they are physically pathetic comparative to Ogres/Minotaurs/Trolls and even Orcs.


    If bombardment magic is trivial/ubiquitous then you just get Napoleonic warfare not modern fire and maneuver teams. If we have magic as powerful and cheap as modern artillery then war would just be light cavalry mounted mages. Ogres would be hopelessly out matched there.

    No, because the reason that we ever got Napoleonic warfare was that formation warfare was a thing to begin with... This ENTIRE thread of the discussion is about the fact that REALISTICALLY formation warfare, at least for humans and other so physically inferior races, would have never really become relevant in the Warhammer World...


    Final point here, pike formations can form pike squares defeating a trivial flanking maneuver which would be expected in this case. Even with bombardment magic youd just get a napoleonic square formation (i.e. hollow center).

    Pike Squares are also extremely immobile and a complete non-threat..



    But hell... If you want to stand around in a tighly packed formation when the enemy commonly use the medieval fantasy equivalent of A-10 Thunderbolts (Dragons and Wyverns), then be my guest..
    A-10s are orders of magnitude better than a Dragon. Further, dragons and wyverns are rare in lore and guess what magic exists so you just explode the odd dragon out of the air. Its a big slow moving target! Nothing could be easier to hit then that.
    For a creature of such size to maintain flight they would ahve to be incredibly fast... So no.. They are not slow easy targets...


    If magic is so good that human shock action is obsolete, then that is true everywhere. If all shock action is obsolete then humans have the advantage because in pseudo-modern warfare a 9ft tall ogre wouldnt be able to do fire and maneuver as well as a regular dude.

    Humans in a lose formation WOULD have advantage against an Ogre... They would surround it and take it down with bugbites... Humans trying to form a shieldwall against an Ogre would get obliterated at the same time...


    Modern war is basically light infantry spot targets to get obliterated by burst fire simultaneously contact self propelled artillery, ballistic missiles, stealth bombers, etc.

    Actual Modern Warfare has very little bearing on the discussion at hand, but for the record modern warfare has not looked like that for a LONG time... Not since large nations actually went to war with each other basically... Modern Warfare is now a hellhole morass of Urban and Guirella warfare..


    However, unless your suggesting TWW2 magic/missiles are under powered, we can confirm that shock action does work and most battles are won by it. Tabletop was the same situation. So your whole argument is not only historically reductionist but also ignores actual gameplay and lore of the setting.

    And here we have the crux of the matter... You have completely misudnerstood the premise of this thread of the discussion, and instead when being wrong decided to dig in your heels and stay stubborn...
    I am saying that if you try to apply REALISTIC developments to the Warhammer World, the entire premise of the setting falls apart.. The Warhammer World isn't meant to stand up to that form of scrutiny and if you expect it to be realistic, then your suspension of disbelief immediately evaporates.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 5,346
    World availability is pointless in the discussion because CA has already made a lot of fairly rare things pretty common. Steamtanks for example, you can field them in bulk but that's now how many there are in the world.

    Used a lot of them for my skaven in Mordheim.
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 4,477

    Bonutz said:

    We already have Skaven with rifles, hombre.

    I guess it would be nice if they were a little more diverse in their roster.
    Let’s give the Skaven super soakers. That would make for a good laugh.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 3,153
    edited March 30
    Goatforce said:

    Eh? What? We have Jezzails already, those are the Skaven rifles. Don't think there are any skaven gun units left at all.

    We will get Verminlords, probably Stormfiends, not much else left.

    they have warplock pistols, especially for engineers
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 6,962

    Goatforce said:

    Eh? What? We have Jezzails already, those are the Skaven rifles. Don't think there are any skaven gun units left at all.

    We will get Verminlords, probably Stormfiends, not much else left.

    they have warplock pistols, especially for engineers
    True, as I said earlier it is a crime that the Warlock Masters didn't get Warplocks, would have made them actually distinct and not a powerful melee caster for no apparent reason.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,964
    Oh, hey, the 'tanks are obsolete' line. Armchair generals have been making that claim for four decades now. Field experience has shown that it's still really valuable to have vehicles that can shrug off most infantry weapons, carry heavy weapons, provide mobile cover for infantry, and hold ground.
  • JetFuelDingoJetFuelDingo Registered Users Posts: 65
    Maelas said:

    Verminlords, Stormfiends and Giant Rats will probably be their next (and last) DLC. Technically Stormfiends kind of have rifles, I suppose.

    whats the difference between horror broods/rat wolves and giant rats????
  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Registered Users Posts: 321



    But eh, continue to be aggressive and rude - very persuasive way to win an argument on the internet.

    You started it kiddo.. If you can't take the heat, then get out of the forge...

    But, before you go, let us tear apart your arguement, shall we?



    The mai reason taht we abbandoned formation warfare was simply because the weapons became too destructive compared to the mobility of our forces. If a formation of 100 men are mowed down in seconds, then they are no longer combat effective...
    Right, they were abandon because shock action is largely obsolete unless you are willing to take horrific losses or the enemy is totally surprised/incompetent.

    That said shock actions still happened in ww2 and will still happen and they do hinge on formations, but as stated you need more or less complete surprise. See the last few cavalry charges that have occured.
    I am GUESSING that by shock action, you are actually refering to shock tactics. Shock tactics has not yet gone out of favour and sees continued use (though with the increasing obselete nature of tanks, the future of shock tactics is open). Shock tactics basically just involve the rapid and overwhelming advance of forces. They don't actually need to make contact with the enemy, but rather just has to push the enemy out. In pre-mdoern times this was achieved by heavy cavalry. In modern times the shock tactic is now achieved by the battle tanks (arguably the replacement of the cavalry, but that is another discussion). Shock tactic does NOT require surprise. It simply requires to present an overwhelming force. A formation of cavalry that charges frontally against a line can equally achieve the needed shock as a surprise attack. The reason taht cavalry charges in particular fell out of favour was because they became impossible to achieve due to the enemy firepower (again, the advance in firepower outpaced the advance in mobility).



    Also Ogres are EASILY more heavy than a horse, and they will also be wearing armour, making them EASILY more heavy than an armoured horse. And what on God's sweet green Earth do you thk the OGRES will use against humans with pikes? You (probably didn't) guessed it! LARGER PIKES! Humans are so pathetically outclassed by all of these types of creatures, that it simply wouldn't even be a contest...
    Ogres are what 8-9 feat tall, and a bit thicker than a human, but otherwise humanoid? No way they weight more than 500-600 lbs, add 30% for armour so 800 lbs. A barder warhorse + armoured knight is easily 1800 lbs.

    Sure Ogres use pikes, but canon there are fewer Ogres than humans so you use a pike formation and envelop them.
    Ogres are about 9-12 feet tall more like, and is easily 10-20 times the bodymass of humans. An Ogre would easily weigh the same as a horse, and usually probably even more. A knight in armour in full charge would pose a threat to an Ogre, if the Ogre just stood there and took it. However, ALL Ogres are each the equivalent of a mounted knight in mass(ish), which means that their formation warriors are an order of magnitude superior to comparatively pathetic humans. If we then also add in the actual cavalry of the Ogres, and humans would be better off just throwing themselves upon their own swords... Humans are simply outclassed at every physical level by Ogres.



    Also no... Formations doesn't mitigate strength differences... Yes, it allows you to prevent others of SIMILAR strenght from pushing through. But if humans tried to form a shieldwall against something like an Ogre or Minotaur, they would be instantly obliterated by the force of the swings from such creatures. Human would have absolutely no hope of blocking attacks (the main purpose of the shieldwall) from such creature, and each strike would shatter bones and more likely instantly kill any human on the recieving end. Yes, pikes would help in these cases (there is a reason that they pretty much countered cavalry charges), but, exactly as in the real world, the counter to the pike formation, was to simply go around it or bombard it with explosives..... So even, erronously, assuming that Ogres wouldn't have easy access to magical bombardments, the light troops protecting the flanks of the pike formation would still instantly be obliterated by the Ogres, who would then tear through the flank of the pikes, and then all hell would break loose and humanity would once more facing a very easy and pathetic extinction...
    Shield walls are not strength on strength pushing matches thats nonsense, they are about using shields to deny good targets to the enemy as you poke them with spears/polearms. Pikes replace the shield with a longer polearm but its the same idea.
    That is actually exactly what a Shieldwall is... If you think they jsut stand there and jab at eachotehr, then you aren't paying enough attention to the historical sources... maintaining a shieldwall is extremely physically taxing becuase the enemy is obviosuly pushing back at them... How you can even try to suggest otherwise is beyond me...


    The light troops would be obliterated because they are in loose order, that is exactly why formations are not obsolete.

    No.. They would be obliterated becuase they are physically pathetic comparative to Ogres/Minotaurs/Trolls and even Orcs.


    If bombardment magic is trivial/ubiquitous then you just get Napoleonic warfare not modern fire and maneuver teams. If we have magic as powerful and cheap as modern artillery then war would just be light cavalry mounted mages. Ogres would be hopelessly out matched there.

    No, because the reason that we ever got Napoleonic warfare was that formation warfare was a thing to begin with... This ENTIRE thread of the discussion is about the fact that REALISTICALLY formation warfare, at least for humans and other so physically inferior races, would have never really become relevant in the Warhammer World...


    Final point here, pike formations can form pike squares defeating a trivial flanking maneuver which would be expected in this case. Even with bombardment magic youd just get a napoleonic square formation (i.e. hollow center).

    Pike Squares are also extremely immobile and a complete non-threat..



    But hell... If you want to stand around in a tighly packed formation when the enemy commonly use the medieval fantasy equivalent of A-10 Thunderbolts (Dragons and Wyverns), then be my guest..
    A-10s are orders of magnitude better than a Dragon. Further, dragons and wyverns are rare in lore and guess what magic exists so you just explode the odd dragon out of the air. Its a big slow moving target! Nothing could be easier to hit then that.
    For a creature of such size to maintain flight they would ahve to be incredibly fast... So no.. They are not slow easy targets...


    If magic is so good that human shock action is obsolete, then that is true everywhere. If all shock action is obsolete then humans have the advantage because in pseudo-modern warfare a 9ft tall ogre wouldnt be able to do fire and maneuver as well as a regular dude.

    Humans in a lose formation WOULD have advantage against an Ogre... They would surround it and take it down with bugbites... Humans trying to form a shieldwall against an Ogre would get obliterated at the same time...


    Modern war is basically light infantry spot targets to get obliterated by burst fire simultaneously contact self propelled artillery, ballistic missiles, stealth bombers, etc.

    Actual Modern Warfare has very little bearing on the discussion at hand, but for the record modern warfare has not looked like that for a LONG time... Not since large nations actually went to war with each other basically... Modern Warfare is now a hellhole morass of Urban and Guirella warfare..


    However, unless your suggesting TWW2 magic/missiles are under powered, we can confirm that shock action does work and most battles are won by it. Tabletop was the same situation. So your whole argument is not only historically reductionist but also ignores actual gameplay and lore of the setting.

    And here we have the crux of the matter... You have completely misudnerstood the premise of this thread of the discussion, and instead when being wrong decided to dig in your heels and stay stubborn...
    I am saying that if you try to apply REALISTIC developments to the Warhammer World, the entire premise of the setting falls apart.. The Warhammer World isn't meant to stand up to that form of scrutiny and if you expect it to be realistic, then your suspension of disbelief immediately evaporates.

    Realism? Most big monsters won’t even be able to support their own body weight due to gravity, and dragons aren’t gonna fly due to physics and biology, there is your realism
  • Otto_von_SaxonyOtto_von_Saxony Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 10



    But eh, continue to be aggressive and rude - very persuasive way to win an argument on the internet.

    You started it kiddo.. If you can't take the heat, then get out of the forge...

    But, before you go, let us tear apart your arguement, shall we?
    I stated you are wrong and articulating why. You came back with personal attacks.



    The mai reason taht we abbandoned formation warfare was simply because the weapons became too destructive compared to the mobility of our forces. If a formation of 100 men are mowed down in seconds, then they are no longer combat effective...
    Right, they were abandon because shock action is largely obsolete unless you are willing to take horrific losses or the enemy is totally surprised/incompetent.

    That said shock actions still happened in ww2 and will still happen and they do hinge on formations, but as stated you need more or less complete surprise. See the last few cavalry charges that have occured.

    I am GUESSING that by shock action, you are actually refering to shock tactics. Shock tactics has not yet gone out of favour and sees continued use (though with the increasing obselete nature of tanks, the future of shock tactics is open). Shock tactics basically just involve the rapid and overwhelming advance of forces. They don't actually need to make contact with the enemy, but rather just has to push the enemy out. In pre-mdoern times this was achieved by heavy cavalry. In modern times the shock tactic is now achieved by the battle tanks (arguably the replacement of the cavalry, but that is another discussion). Shock tactic does NOT require surprise. It simply requires to present an overwhelming force. A formation of cavalry that charges frontally against a line can equally achieve the needed shock as a surprise attack. The reason taht cavalry charges in particular fell out of favour was because they became impossible to achieve due to the enemy firepower (again, the advance in firepower outpaced the advance in mobility).

    Poor phrasing on my part, I was referring to melee shock action.



    Also Ogres are EASILY more heavy than a horse, and they will also be wearing armour, making them EASILY more heavy than an armoured horse. And what on God's sweet green Earth do you thk the OGRES will use against humans with pikes? You (probably didn't) guessed it! LARGER PIKES! Humans are so pathetically outclassed by all of these types of creatures, that it simply wouldn't even be a contest...
    Ogres are what 8-9 feat tall, and a bit thicker than a human, but otherwise humanoid? No way they weight more than 500-600 lbs, add 30% for armour so 800 lbs. A barder warhorse + armoured knight is easily 1800 lbs.

    Sure Ogres use pikes, but canon there are fewer Ogres than humans so you use a pike formation and envelop them.
    Ogres are about 9-12 feet tall more like, and is easily 10-20 times the bodymass of humans. An Ogre would easily weigh the same as a horse, and usually probably even more. A knight in armour in full charge would pose a threat to an Ogre, if the Ogre just stood there and took it. However, ALL Ogres are each the equivalent of a mounted knight in mass(ish), which means that their formation warriors are an order of magnitude superior to comparatively pathetic humans. If we then also add in the actual cavalry of the Ogres, and humans would be better off just throwing themselves upon their own swords... Humans are simply outclassed at every physical level by Ogres.


    For someone concerned with realism you surely know a 12 ft tall 4000 (200*20) lbs creature couldnt exist in humanoid shape. Nor in any appreciable quantity or density to form a society capable of waging war. The calorie needs of such a beast would be unsustainable - assuming we yada yada the physics allowing its body to exist.



    Also no... Formations doesn't mitigate strength differences... Yes, it allows you to prevent others of SIMILAR strenght from pushing through. But if humans tried to form a shieldwall against something like an Ogre or Minotaur, they would be instantly obliterated by the force of the swings from such creatures. Human would have absolutely no hope of blocking attacks (the main purpose of the shieldwall) from such creature, and each strike would shatter bones and more likely instantly kill any human on the recieving end. Yes, pikes would help in these cases (there is a reason that they pretty much countered cavalry charges), but, exactly as in the real world, the counter to the pike formation, was to simply go around it or bombard it with explosives..... So even, erronously, assuming that Ogres wouldn't have easy access to magical bombardments, the light troops protecting the flanks of the pike formation would still instantly be obliterated by the Ogres, who would then tear through the flank of the pikes, and then all hell would break loose and humanity would once more facing a very easy and pathetic extinction...
    Shield walls are not strength on strength pushing matches thats nonsense, they are about using shields to deny good targets to the enemy as you poke them with spears/polearms. Pikes replace the shield with a longer polearm but its the same idea.
    That is actually exactly what a Shieldwall is... If you think they jsut stand there and jab at eachotehr, then you aren't paying enough attention to the historical sources... maintaining a shieldwall is extremely physically taxing becuase the enemy is obviosuly pushing back at them... How you can even try to suggest otherwise is beyond me...


    I recommend reading those sources again, pushing matches are suicide. Modern experimentation clearly shows it, and since people 1000 years ago were no stupid surely they would realize a pushing match ends in a knife fight.

    A shield wall is taxing because your constantly parrying, stabbing, and blocking. I recommend trying to do a mock fight in armour with spear & shield - its exhausting without "pushing".


    The light troops would be obliterated because they are in loose order, that is exactly why formations are not obsolete.

    No.. They would be obliterated becuase they are physically pathetic comparative to Ogres/Minotaurs/Trolls and even Orcs.


    If bombardment magic is trivial/ubiquitous then you just get Napoleonic warfare not modern fire and maneuver teams. If we have magic as powerful and cheap as modern artillery then war would just be light cavalry mounted mages. Ogres would be hopelessly out matched there.

    No, because the reason that we ever got Napoleonic warfare was that formation warfare was a thing to begin with... This ENTIRE thread of the discussion is about the fact that REALISTICALLY formation warfare, at least for humans and other so physically inferior races, would have never really become relevant in the Warhammer World...

    Im sure the 12ft tall 4000lbs ogres have a reproductive rate enough to not become extinct by humans, because we have never managed to hunt larger things to extinction. Oh wait...


    Final point here, pike formations can form pike squares defeating a trivial flanking maneuver which would be expected in this case. Even with bombardment magic youd just get a napoleonic square formation (i.e. hollow center).

    Pike Squares are also extremely immobile and a complete non-threat..

    If youre opponent only has pikes then sure, but otherwise they have guns and can move. It doesnt take long to deploy pikes...



    But hell... If you want to stand around in a tighly packed formation when the enemy commonly use the medieval fantasy equivalent of A-10 Thunderbolts (Dragons and Wyverns), then be my guest..
    A-10s are orders of magnitude better than a Dragon. Further, dragons and wyverns are rare in lore and guess what magic exists so you just explode the odd dragon out of the air. Its a big slow moving target! Nothing could be easier to hit then that.
    For a creature of such size to maintain flight they would ahve to be incredibly fast... So no.. They are not slow easy targets...

    Dragons that moved fast would die of malnutrition every flight. Big birds glide for a reason, and gliding birds are not fast. There is no reason to think dragons would be any faster unless you yada yada with magic. In which case you can contrive anything you like.


    If magic is so good that human shock action is obsolete, then that is true everywhere. If all shock action is obsolete then humans have the advantage because in pseudo-modern warfare a 9ft tall ogre wouldnt be able to do fire and maneuver as well as a regular dude.

    Humans in a lose formation WOULD have advantage against an Ogre... They would surround it and take it down with bugbites... Humans trying to form a shieldwall against an Ogre would get obliterated at the same time...


    If Ogres are weak enough that a few Arquebuses kill it, humans would make the entire species extinct in a 100 years.


    Modern war is basically light infantry spot targets to get obliterated by burst fire simultaneously contact self propelled artillery, ballistic missiles, stealth bombers, etc.

    Actual Modern Warfare has very little bearing on the discussion at hand, but for the record modern warfare has not looked like that for a LONG time... Not since large nations actually went to war with each other basically... Modern Warfare is now a hellhole morass of Urban and Guirella warfare..


    Afghanistan - light infantry forces spot taliban guys to explode.

    Syria/Iraq - light infantry forces spot ISIS guys to explode.

    Urban warfare involves CQC, but even there its still largely artillery/mortars/bombers doing the heavy lifting. Modern infantry are too squishy. Modern tanks are too squishy. Both are too expensive compared to a bomb.


    However, unless your suggesting TWW2 magic/missiles are under powered, we can confirm that shock action does work and most battles are won by it. Tabletop was the same situation. So your whole argument is not only historically reductionist but also ignores actual gameplay and lore of the setting.

    And here we have the crux of the matter... You have completely misudnerstood the premise of this thread of the discussion, and instead when being wrong decided to dig in your heels and stay stubborn...
    I am saying that if you try to apply REALISTIC developments to the Warhammer World, the entire premise of the setting falls apart.. The Warhammer World isn't meant to stand up to that form of scrutiny and if you expect it to be realistic, then your suspension of disbelief immediately evaporates.

    Fiction evaporates without suspension of disbelief. Ogres are not real, therefore the store is unrealistic.

    Formations benefit people going into melee shock action. Melee shock action exists in setting. Therefore sapient beings would use formations (Ogres f.e. benefit from formation). Even if you will not accept formations are useful vs Ogres they would be vs other humans, elves, undead, orks, goblins, dwarves, lizardmen, etc. In some of these the other species would be better at CQC, but in a 1v1 fight the guy with 50 lbs and 6 inches nearly always wins, that wouldnt be different between two separate species. What formations do is they allow allies to support each other through parrying attacks and killing enemies you cannot see. That is still true in warhammer.
  • arthadawarthadaw Registered Users Posts: 1,076
    A Tiger or a Bear can be killed by a small group of people with spears working together, formation were used against larger foes because it meant that you could stop them more easily

    An Ogre may be heavier than an armoured horse but it's quite likely that it's far slower letting your men prepare themselves to the impact
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 3,153

    Maelas said:

    Verminlords, Stormfiends and Giant Rats will probably be their next (and last) DLC. Technically Stormfiends kind of have rifles, I suppose.

    whats the difference between horror broods/rat wolves and giant rats????
    ...

    Ones a SEM

    Another's a hound unit

    And the last ones a mass chaffy unit, sturdier and braver than slaves. Also have Wave of Rats ability

  • JetFuelDingoJetFuelDingo Registered Users Posts: 65

    Maelas said:

    Verminlords, Stormfiends and Giant Rats will probably be their next (and last) DLC. Technically Stormfiends kind of have rifles, I suppose.

    whats the difference between horror broods/rat wolves and giant rats????
    ...

    Ones a SEM

    Another's a hound unit

    And the last ones a mass chaffy unit, sturdier and braver than slaves. Also have Wave of Rats ability

    sounds a unit they won't add in the future
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