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Silverin or Phoenix Guards

XenomorpheusXenomorpheus Registered Users Posts: 5
Hello,

I’m re-building a High Elves army and I’m a bit torn on my front line units. I’ve seen many people saying Phoenix Guards are the easy choice but they don’t have shields as Silverin do. So when an enemy’s ranged units start pounding them early on they’ve got nothing to stop them. Do the Phoenix’s other qualities offset this?

Thanks for any help!
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Comments

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Just take 19 Sisters of Avelorn. No need to bother with anything else as long as the game leans so heavy on ranged damage. Elite melee infantry is worthless.
  • XenomorpheusXenomorpheus Registered Users Posts: 5

    Just take 19 Sisters of Avelorn. No need to bother with anything else as long as the game leans so heavy on ranged damage. Elite melee infantry is worthless.

    I bet that’s accurate but I hope it’s not. That’d be so boring, right?

  • EmeraldThanatosEmeraldThanatos Registered Users Posts: 2,910
    Silverin Guard are more of a mid-game unit IMO, whilst Phoenix Guard are more late-game.
    Ranking of all Total War games I've played:
    1. Three kingdoms
    2. Attila
    3. Warhammer (1, 2 & 3)
    4. Medieval 2
    5. Shogun 2
    6. Thrones
    7. Rome 2
    8. Napoleon
    9. Empire


  • HondlisHondlis Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,481
    Silverin for front line. As others said ranged is op and will melt your phoenix guard in seconds. And yes you have stronger ranged than most but it's always better to focus fire their monsters or cav instead of their ranged so your frontline can live.

    Or not. That's the beauty of the game as you can make most compositions work.
  • DyesevnDyesevn Registered Users Posts: 129
    out of the two, I would go mostly silver in with a Phoenix guard thrown in specifically to lock down a large monster. but the other poster is right, today's meta favors ranged so much in higher difficulties that it's best to go with a heavy sisters of avalon stack and forego Spearman completely. Just stack the archers in checker board formation
  • ProcessingProcessing Czech Republic Registered Users Posts: 696

    Just take 19 Sisters of Avelorn. No need to bother with anything else as long as the game leans so heavy on ranged damage. Elite melee infantry is worthless.

    I bet that’s accurate but I hope it’s not. That’d be so boring, right?

    Don't listen to our good old Shiro. He has some pretty great opinions, but he complains a lot... about everything.

    Yes, the game leans heavily towards ranged meta, but that doesn't matter as long as you play SP.

    In terms of usefulness, as long as you play on Normal battle difficulty, melee units and cav are still viable, so there's that

    In multiplayer - Silverin

    In singleplayer - PG
  • BayesBayes Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,130
    Shiro is right, but if you are not too worried about it you can choose to play sub optimally, if you are very worried about it you can just make a simple mod that nerfs ranged units for your faction. But it would be much better if CA changed stuff up.
    If you see this lost little fellow please help him find his way home.
  • YannirYannir Registered Users Posts: 2,026

    Silverin Guard are more of a mid-game unit IMO, whilst Phoenix Guard are more late-game.

    Silverin Guard are good enough in the late game as well. Phoenix Guard is kinda over-rated.

    My armies are usually like 1 Lord, 1 Light Mage, 1 Noble or Handmaiden, 2 Eagleclaws, 4 Silverin Guard and the rest are Sisters of Avelorn.
    Or not really, that's just what I like as a baseline. I have no 2 armies that look exactly the same.
    Ugh, I have spoken.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,969

    Just take 19 Sisters of Avelorn. No need to bother with anything else as long as the game leans so heavy on ranged damage. Elite melee infantry is worthless.

    I bet that’s accurate but I hope it’s not. That’d be so boring, right?

    eh. More boring than watching melee units grind on each other for 10 minutes? At least with archers you're more engaged with the battle and can target high priority units on the enemies side.

    Arcain Phoenix stack is the current doom stack though.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • NeoYasNeoYas Registered Users Posts: 891
    edited March 2021

    Hello,

    I’m re-building a High Elves army and I’m a bit torn on my front line units. I’ve seen many people saying Phoenix Guards are the easy choice but they don’t have shields as Silverin do. So when an enemy’s ranged units start pounding them early on they’ve got nothing to stop them. Do the Phoenix’s other qualities offset this?

    Thanks for any help!

    It depends on what you want from them and on your playstyle, if you want and iron wall resistant to missile damage that serves like an anvil then Silverin Guards are enough, even in late game, with certain buffs. But if you want a damage dealing front line with armour piercing weapons and very good against monsters then Fenix Guards, but at the cost of you economy, since they are expensive.


  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021

    Just take 19 Sisters of Avelorn. No need to bother with anything else as long as the game leans so heavy on ranged damage. Elite melee infantry is worthless.

    I bet that’s accurate but I hope it’s not. That’d be so boring, right?

    eh. More boring than watching melee units grind on each other for 10 minutes? At least with archers you're more engaged with the battle and can target high priority units on the enemies side.

    Arcain Phoenix stack is the current doom stack though.
    Melee infantry is slow and turns slow and is often only effective against certain targets, so you need proper planning and positioning to actually have them engage in favorable MUs. Ranged units by contrast require no such thought since they're braindead effective against close to everything thanks to massively overtuned DPS and for the best of them, like SoA, you don't even have any LoS concerns and they can attack units from almost anywhere. SoA also have AP, magic and flaming attacks, so they'll kill everything fast except dwarfs, but those only marginally slower.
  • NeoYasNeoYas Registered Users Posts: 891
    edited March 2021
    This is my army build for Tyrion on late game on very hard difficulty:



    The easy way is to go full sisters or dragons, but what I like about this game is that with certain buff and lords you can make weak or average units viable for the late game, It's a nice challenge.

    I also rely on some items and heroes to make those unites strong, both Noble and the Damsel have buffs for spearmen, Silver Helms and archers, also the army is cheap because of Tyrion cost reduction specifically for those units. My Tyrion army is very strong.


  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 830
    Well... I'd say that might actually be the wrong question because I arguably wouldn't use Phoenix Guard as a frontline unit.

    I'd say take swordmasters for your frontline which still have some missile parry (as well as considerably better armour and more health) and maybe have a small amount of Phoenix Guard for protecting your backline and attacking monsters.

    Silverin are kind of neat, but once you reach late game, the game has a tendency to throw tons of elite units at you, most of them well-armoured and well... Silverin Guards aren't technically bad, but they lack ap which becomes a dealbreaker at some point.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,601
    The extra armor, HP and physical resistance are more than enough to compensate in terms of durability v ranged. Plus, as HE you should not really have much problem against enemy archers: they should be your longer ranged archers priority.


    So, if you can pay por both, Phoenix Guard is a much better option.
  • manuelpsmanuelps Registered Users Posts: 2,812
    Silverin in general, Phoenix guards for Teclis and Alarielle since you can't afford to spend many points in the red tree for this lords.
  • manuelpsmanuelps Registered Users Posts: 2,812

    Silverin Guard are more of a mid-game unit IMO, whilst Phoenix Guard are more late-game.

    I think it depends on the enemy. Against skaven or DE Silverin are better since they have several ways to inflict magical attacks.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,643
    In older TW titles, fast moving units such as cavalry had a nerf-effect on the accuracy of ranged units when moving at a run. Archers had trouble hitting them reliably (as it should be). Since Rome 2 (possibly Shogun 2?) archers and the like seem MORE likely to hit cavalry at any speed... which is ridiculous and massively de-emphasized spearmen, who were usually the bulk of balanced army (you know, as historically accurate).

    This change REALLY needs to be reverted. Archers should be less useful against cavalry unless firing straight on (combine the vectors). Crossbows and guns should be better due to having faster projectiles, but have an appropriately lower firing rate. You know... just like all the old TWs had... in this game crossbows are just better than archers for any race that actually has crossbows and they fire just as fast. It's stupid.

    Ranged units actually had nuance, once upon a time... and were best used against masses of infantry (derp derp). Although horse-archers were generally good against other cavalry due to relativity.

    I can attest: hitting fast moving targets (relative to you) with anything not a gun is hard. Pretty sure it's harder for guns, too :-P.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021
    Itharus said:

    In older TW titles, fast moving units such as cavalry had a nerf-effect on the accuracy of ranged units when moving at a run. Archers had trouble hitting them reliably (as it should be). Since Rome 2 (possibly Shogun 2?) archers and the like seem MORE likely to hit cavalry at any speed... which is ridiculous and massively de-emphasized spearmen, who were usually the bulk of balanced army (you know, as historically accurate).

    Some ranged units lead their targets, some don't. Jezzails are the most obvious thanks to their long range. Try to dodge their volleys with, say, a dragon and you'll see that you have to change course the moment they shoot or they will adjust their aim and fire into your projected path.

    That's what certain ranged units should do and that definitely should not be changed. What needs to be changed is raw DPS.
  • peabodyestatepeabodyestate Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    edited March 2021
    Pheonix guard are undoubtedly the better option. Even if the AI focus fire them, you are a highelf with regrowth - that will mitigate any damage taken to that unit. When it comes down to actually fighting, PO are incredibly strong, some might say the best of their kind in the entire game (like me).

    Silverin guard are cheaper, and are still absolutely amazing. You only need a tier 3 barracks which is nothing since you usually start with a tier 2 one. I reckon they will eat a sizeable nerf at some point.

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Pheonix guard are undoubtedly the better option. Even if the AI focus fire them, you are a highelf with regrowth - that will mitigate any damage taken to that unit. When it comes down to actually fighting, PO are incredibly strong, some might say the best of their kind in the entire game (like me).

    Silverin guard are cheaper, and are still absolutely amazing. You only need a tier 3 barracks which is nothing since you usually start with a tier 2 one. I reckon they will eat a sizeable nerf at some point.

    Why waste Regrowth on anything but your lord, heroes or any monster?
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 5,981

    Pheonix guard are undoubtedly the better option. Even if the AI focus fire them, you are a highelf with regrowth - that will mitigate any damage taken to that unit. When it comes down to actually fighting, PO are incredibly strong, some might say the best of their kind in the entire game (like me).

    Silverin guard are cheaper, and are still absolutely amazing. You only need a tier 3 barracks which is nothing since you usually start with a tier 2 one. I reckon they will eat a sizeable nerf at some point.

    Why waste Regrowth on anything but your lord, heroes or any monster?
    Because the multi entity anti large unit does exponentially more DPS in the long run and it's in the players best interest to maintain all its entities to preserve that DPS


    Watch any half decent player and you'll see they throw it on Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guards, etc.
  • peabodyestatepeabodyestate Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    The AI generally focus fire one unit of pheonix guard, so casting regrowth on that unit mitigates the damage for all of their arrows at once.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    Against primarily nonmagical, low AP attacks, I think the combination of physical resistance, higher armour, higher health per entity, and better melee capabilities are enough to keep the Phoenix Guard ahead of the Silverin Guard. Against AP missiles, the Silverin Guard have the advantage... but if armour is being ignored, you might be better off using Seaguard with Shields anyway, compensating for the weaker melee stats by softening the enemy with a few volleys as they approach. Magical projectiles, naturally, put the ball firmly in the Silverin Guard's court.

    Being efficient about it, though, having a front line of Silverin Guard while keeping the higher-tier units in reserve to reinforce the line when needed probably isn't a bad approach.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Pheonix guard are undoubtedly the better option. Even if the AI focus fire them, you are a highelf with regrowth - that will mitigate any damage taken to that unit. When it comes down to actually fighting, PO are incredibly strong, some might say the best of their kind in the entire game (like me).

    Silverin guard are cheaper, and are still absolutely amazing. You only need a tier 3 barracks which is nothing since you usually start with a tier 2 one. I reckon they will eat a sizeable nerf at some point.

    Why waste Regrowth on anything but your lord, heroes or any monster?
    Because the multi entity anti large unit does exponentially more DPS in the long run and it's in the players best interest to maintain all its entities to preserve that DPS


    Watch any half decent player and you'll see they throw it on Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guards, etc.
    False. The most DPS are dished out by magic, ranged, monsters and cavalry. Melee infantry, especially elite melee infantry simply gets shot to pieces before it can reach any suitable target, and the AI prioritizes elite melee infantry with its skirmishers.

    Melee infantry also becomes weaker and more vulnerable as it loses models and gains fatigue, which lowers its combat stats and causes its armor to melt. Ranged units don't lose any effectiveness with fatigue, they hit as hard at the end of the match as in the beginning.

    Regrowth, unlike its TT counterpart, doens't resurrect models, so using it on infantry is a waste of WoM. On any SE it has full effectiveness.
  • Lord of CinderLord of Cinder Registered Users Posts: 472

    Pheonix guard are undoubtedly the better option. Even if the AI focus fire them, you are a highelf with regrowth - that will mitigate any damage taken to that unit. When it comes down to actually fighting, PO are incredibly strong, some might say the best of their kind in the entire game (like me).

    Silverin guard are cheaper, and are still absolutely amazing. You only need a tier 3 barracks which is nothing since you usually start with a tier 2 one. I reckon they will eat a sizeable nerf at some point.

    Why waste Regrowth on anything but your lord, heroes or any monster?
    Because the multi entity anti large unit does exponentially more DPS in the long run and it's in the players best interest to maintain all its entities to preserve that DPS


    Watch any half decent player and you'll see they throw it on Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guards, etc.
    False. The most DPS are dished out by magic, ranged, monsters and cavalry. Melee infantry, especially elite melee infantry simply gets shot to pieces before it can reach any suitable target, and the AI prioritizes elite melee infantry with its skirmishers.

    Melee infantry also becomes weaker and more vulnerable as it loses models and gains fatigue, which lowers its combat stats and causes its armor to melt. Ranged units don't lose any effectiveness with fatigue, they hit as hard at the end of the match as in the beginning.

    Regrowth, unlike its TT counterpart, doens't resurrect models, so using it on infantry is a waste of WoM. On any SE it has full effectiveness.
    If your melee infantry is getting focus fired, takes damage, and eventually dies without proper support, those same units that killed it will find another target...supposedly the very same monsters, cavalry, ranged and etc "damage dealers". And when these units lose models they do less damage. I know, an amazing breakthrough!

    Will infantry do better DPS than what you consider "damage dealers"? No, not likely. Will it take it better than a bunch of ranged, a squishy caster, or even many monsters? Sure as hell it will.

    Honestly, simple logic suggests that a bunch of properly supported infantry + monster will do far more than a bunch of dead infantry + monster.
  • peabodyestatepeabodyestate Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    I find that you dont actually lose a model from arrows until a unit is really low health.anovercast regrowth on a unit of sword masters of hoeth at 50% health from arrowfire alone will get back up timaximum health.

    Regrowth is also fantastic on SEMs and Lords etc.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited April 2021

    Pheonix guard are undoubtedly the better option. Even if the AI focus fire them, you are a highelf with regrowth - that will mitigate any damage taken to that unit. When it comes down to actually fighting, PO are incredibly strong, some might say the best of their kind in the entire game (like me).

    Silverin guard are cheaper, and are still absolutely amazing. You only need a tier 3 barracks which is nothing since you usually start with a tier 2 one. I reckon they will eat a sizeable nerf at some point.

    Why waste Regrowth on anything but your lord, heroes or any monster?
    Because the multi entity anti large unit does exponentially more DPS in the long run and it's in the players best interest to maintain all its entities to preserve that DPS


    Watch any half decent player and you'll see they throw it on Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guards, etc.
    False. The most DPS are dished out by magic, ranged, monsters and cavalry. Melee infantry, especially elite melee infantry simply gets shot to pieces before it can reach any suitable target, and the AI prioritizes elite melee infantry with its skirmishers.

    Melee infantry also becomes weaker and more vulnerable as it loses models and gains fatigue, which lowers its combat stats and causes its armor to melt. Ranged units don't lose any effectiveness with fatigue, they hit as hard at the end of the match as in the beginning.

    Regrowth, unlike its TT counterpart, doens't resurrect models, so using it on infantry is a waste of WoM. On any SE it has full effectiveness.
    If your melee infantry is getting focus fired, takes damage, and eventually dies without proper support, those same units that killed it will find another target...supposedly the very same monsters, cavalry, ranged and etc "damage dealers". And when these units lose models they do less damage. I know, an amazing breakthrough!

    Will infantry do better DPS than what you consider "damage dealers"? No, not likely. Will it take it better than a bunch of ranged, a squishy caster, or even many monsters? Sure as hell it will.

    Honestly, simple logic suggests that a bunch of properly supported infantry + monster will do far more than a bunch of dead infantry + monster.
    LoL, by that time you've shot them with your own OP ranged units and compromised the frontline with your monsters and magic. Hope that 1000+ g distraction was worth it and you didn't need to the money for units that actually generate value.

    I find that you dont actually lose a model from arrows until a unit is really low health.anovercast regrowth on a unit of sword masters of hoeth at 50% health from arrowfire alone will get back up timaximum health.

    Regrowth is also fantastic on SEMs and Lords etc.

    Tiny units like Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard drop like flies to ranged damage.
  • Lord of CinderLord of Cinder Registered Users Posts: 472


    LoL, by that time you've shot them with your own OP ranged units and compromised the frontline with your monsters and magic. Hope that 1000+ g distraction was worth it and you didn't need to the money for units that actually generate value.

    Tiny units like Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard drop like flies to ranged damage.

    Yeah, I bet a dead-ranged unit is much more effective than a dead infantry unit when focus fired. It will certainly last longer. Not.

    A tiny swordmaster or phoenix guard unit will probably drop fast indeed, but temple guards, iron breakers, and shielded heavy infantry as a whole will not. 4-6 of those will prevent cavalry charges or monster rushes long enough for the rest of the army to kill the priority targets.
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