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Why are Dragon Princes so underrated? Playing as Imrik, of course

CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
edited April 10 in General Discussion
I understand that a lot people don't really like Shock cavalry overall and, while I must also note that I never play on Ultra (only Large) I fail to understand why are Dragon Princes criticized so much s being pathetic.

Yes, their starting stats may be a bit poor, but with upkeep reductions you can field a lot of them and a little investment (Lord skills and techs) their statistics are nearly godlike.

With no temporary buff from any item, ability, ritual, Hero trait or spell whatsoever, with 61 Melee Attack and 66 Melee Defense they are more than OK for a shock cavalry unit that stands at an amazing 101 speed. Their 46 Weapon Strength is a bit on the low end, but their 121 Charge bonus (sic!) is nearly godlike. That's wiping almost everything that doesn't have expert charge defense. And the -50% Vigour reduction is quite excellent for a unit that'll be maneuvering the battlefield a lot, not to mention outlast most hostile units.

This is even better with the two rites if you really need a punch, Eldrazor's invocation bringing their MA up to 71 and WS bumped up to 57. Their only problem seems to be a bit low AP damage (14 or 17 with the invocation) but considering how impact and charge bonuses are calculated (both speed and CB being literally over a hundred), that should not be that huge of an issue if they don't stay entangled for too long with armored units. And the Greater Invocation of Vaul gives them flaming attacks which is absolutely incredible if you play as Imrik you get a lot of Fire Weakness maluses, theoretically pushing a unit to an almost 90% fire weakness (20% from Imrik's passive Ashen Fields, 22% from the Flammable effects, 22% from a firewizard's Kindleflame passive and another 22% from the Handmaiden's Entangle ability). And the princes even cause Fear.

But where they really shine besides their incredible speed is that they're actually pretty tanky. With almost 5000 hit points (more than any other High Elf cav), 40% physical resistance and 145 armor (150 with Vaul's ritual) and the fact that they are shielded (35%), they easily outstat the Silver Helms and are one of the strongest shock cavalry units in the game.

And just imagine boosting them further up with a banner, an effect or a hero that adds a bit (a couple of points in MA may not be much, but everything helps). They are quite awesome and their 90% fire resistance means you can freely play around with aggressive Lore of Fire spells (a lore which just happens to be one of the strongest in the entire game) and the dragons' breaths. A flaw may be the apparent lack of magic resistance (with only 5% Ward Save).

P. S. On a side-note, Imrik should really be able to get Forest and Black Dragons. With Drycha and Rakarth now, there's no reason that they are locked while their unique legendary variants are available to him.
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Comments

  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    edited April 10
    Cvejo said:

    This is even better with the two rites if you really need a punch, Eldrazor's invocation bringing their MA up to 71 and WS bumped up to 57. Their only problem seems to be a bit low AP damage (14 or 17 with the invocation) but considering how impact and charge bonuses are calculated (both speed and CB being literally over a hundred), that should not be that huge of an issue if they don't stay entangled for too long with armored units. And the Greater Invocation of Vaul gives them flaming attacks which is absolutely incredible if you play as Imrik you get a lot of Fire Weakness maluses, theoretically pushing a unit to an almost 90% fire weakness (20% from Imrik's passive Ashen Fields, 22% from the Flammable effects, 22% from a firewizard's Kindleflame passive and another 22% from the Handmaiden's Entangle ability).

    Bruwor's Instincts dragon encounter modifier raises their AP to 34 (37 with the invocation of Eldrazor rite).
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    Their main disadvantage is their lack of anti-large, which hurts them in matchups against enemy elite cavalry.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 3,423
    edited April 10
    Cvejo said:

    Why are Dragon Princes so underrated? Playing as Imrik, of course

    What are you on, I see them built in high level matches often enough, they're crazy when supported by a life mage or Alarielle. ESPECIALLY with Alarielle. But for you, use them with a life mage.


    In campaign? They're the best by virtue of being the most expensive...with a 20 unit limit and supply lines, having 20 of the best something is always the best doomstack.....sadly.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,923
    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,826
    edited April 10
    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    Well they are heavy shock cav , there is literally few melee cav in this game rest are supposed to cycle charge. You answer your own question

    You can do it with dp but need more protection for them like infantry support
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,826
    And no they are not weak lol. Its just HE have some of the most op doom stack units.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,923
    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    Well they are heavy shock cav , there is literally few melee cav in this game rest are supposed to cycle charge. You answer your own question
    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,826
    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    Well they are heavy shock cav , there is literally few melee cav in this game rest are supposed to cycle charge. You answer your own question
    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.
    I mean there are true melee cav . Just not with High elf.

    Aka grail gurdians
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,826
    There are other melee cav as well and they will do just fine as long one could provide infantry support.

    A
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,923
    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    Well they are heavy shock cav , there is literally few melee cav in this game rest are supposed to cycle charge. You answer your own question
    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.
    I mean there are true melee cav . Just not with High elf.

    Aka grail gurdians
    Eh not really. Grail Guardians among the closest to what people are actually thinking of. By Warhammer standards they’re supposed to be.

    But they’re still a far cry from what the old knights and cataphracts from older games used to feel like.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,826
    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    Well they are heavy shock cav , there is literally few melee cav in this game rest are supposed to cycle charge. You answer your own question
    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.
    I mean there are true melee cav . Just not with High elf.

    Aka grail gurdians
    Eh not really. Grail Guardians among the closest to what people are actually thinking of. By Warhammer standards they’re supposed to be.

    But they’re still a far cry from what the old knights and cataphracts from older games used to feel like.
    Sorry mate but that isn't how this game is balanced.

    No cav in this game are that tanky and the reason every unit in this game also pay for speed , mass and CB.

    This is the price you have to pay for those.

    And the reason why they are not more tanky is very very simple there are ton of players who have the skill to micro them and cycle charge units , so such tankyness would make the unit class op.

    That said i did use dragon prince as front line troops in my imrik campaign so in campaign with enough buffs, and with bit of skill this more than possible .
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,923
    edited April 10
    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    Well they are heavy shock cav , there is literally few melee cav in this game rest are supposed to cycle charge. You answer your own question
    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.
    I mean there are true melee cav . Just not with High elf.

    Aka grail gurdians
    Eh not really. Grail Guardians among the closest to what people are actually thinking of. By Warhammer standards they’re supposed to be.

    But they’re still a far cry from what the old knights and cataphracts from older games used to feel like.
    Sorry mate but that isn't how this game is balanced.

    No cav in this game are that tanky and the reason every unit in this game also pay for speed , mass and CB.

    This is the price you have to pay for those.

    And the reason why they are not more tanky is very very simple there are ton of players who have the skill to micro them and cycle charge units , so such tankyness would make the unit class op.

    That said i did use dragon prince as front line troops in my imrik campaign so in campaign with enough buffs, and with bit of skill this more than possible .
    Nah. It’s just that the game balance in Warhammer is less nuanced when it comes to same unit categories.

    Like in older games, heavy cavalry that wasn’t lancers would come with less stamina overall (so you literally couldn’t cycle charge them without exhausting them ... but had to make sure you chose 1 good for them... preferably not against chaff or archers.... but deliberately picked a fight against elite infantry)

    OR the unit gave up a lot of charge bonus compared to lancers so you didn’t pay for the unit right away in 10 seconds.... but over time.

    Then lancers played like shock cav do now.

    It wasn’t balance vs non balance. It was flavor and play style and intricacies that are just missing.

    Grail Guardians for example... without cycle charging.... despite being ‘anti-infantry’ ... can only beat infantry half their cost or less. Infantry at 75% their cost.... not even anti-large units .... just regular units... like standard Chosen, beat them. Which feels weird.

    It’s the same thing in infantry fights too. In older titles.... you could line up a Legion vs a Phalanx of similar cost in dozen different pairs.... change the formation and line depth in each pair.... and have a different victor in each pairing.

    That nuance is entirely gone in Warhammer. You line up two different infantry types a dozen times.... and one is just going to win... each time... or if one doesn’t win it’s due to RNG of the hits.... not tactical deployment of the formation.

    People miss that old tactical variety within same unit types. It IS objectively missing.

    To Warhammer’s defense.... a ton more different unit types exist overall. Monsters, flyers, wizards, etc. but that didn’t have to be mutually exclusive with intricate infantry on infantry or cavalry on cavalry interplay. But it unfortunately was :(

    The example I’ve seen/used before.... is the older games, their rock/paper/scissors was just superior. More depth/nuance/variety to the rock/paper/scissors.

    Warhammer’s rock/paper/scissors is way more simple/sharp/concrete/less nuanced. But Warhammer added a lot more weapon types. So the game isn’t just rock/paper/scissors anymore. It’s rock/paper/scissors/grenade/shotgun/flamethrower. Which is its own form of enjoyable complexity to be sure! I’m glad new unit categories were added beyond just cavalry/infantry/missiles.

    ^^Yet, I can still enjoy the new unit categories while still missing the old unit balancing nuance. It would be cool to have both, they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. But CA currently treats them like they are.

    TL;DR: I like monsters and magic just fine. But I still miss formations/melee cav/etc. They don’t have to get rid of monsters to give us Phalanxes or Porcupines or true Knights back.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    What is your opinion on the Sisters of Thorn?
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    Valkaar said:

    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.

    I am talking about Imrik, so the Dragon Princes are not top-tier, nor even upper-tier unit. They are mid-tier (III, to be precise).
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,923
    Cvejo said:

    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    What is your opinion on the Sisters of Thorn?
    They’re their own thing. Definitely NOT heavy cav though so not really pertinent to this conversation.

    They’re magical support cav like Zoats and Doomfire Warlocks with bound spells.... except they’re ALSO a Skirmish cavalry unit. For their price point I think suffer a tad from ‘jack of all trades, master of none’ problem, as 9x out of 10, I’d rather being a Glade Rider and a Wizard for the cost.

    ^^but they’re tactically unique if nothing else. They’re definitely interesting and they suit the Wood Elf roster well, even though I rarely use them.

    They just aren’t melee cav. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Without cycle charging, they can’t even shave half the health off of some 700-800 gold regular infantry units such as Saurus (not Saurus with spears.... REGULAR Saurus).
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,923
    edited April 10
    Cvejo said:

    Valkaar said:

    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.

    I am talking about Imrik, so the Dragon Princes are not top-tier, nor even upper-tier unit. They are mid-tier (III, to be precise).
    Cvejo said:

    Valkaar said:

    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.

    I am talking about Imrik, so the Dragon Princes are not top-tier, nor even upper-tier unit. They are mid-tier (III, to be precise).
    Your OP, you’re asking why people don’t like Shock Cavalry overall/why people don’t like Dragon Princes in general.

    Where Dragon Princes fall exactly on Imrik’s tech tree is 100% irrelevant to how Dragon Princes compare to Knights/Cataphracts of previous games.

    I am saying.... compared to previous games.... they feel weak in sustained melee compared to similar units of their tier in past games.

    Some people miss that old feel.

    The fact that Imrik unlocks them more quickly doesn’t change their feel. They feel the same, playstyle wise, on Turn 1 as they do on turn 100. I understand their literal stats will be different in 100 turns, but their style remains the same.

    And the fact that Dragon Princes (along with most elite cavalry in Warhammer) play with that style....frustrates some people who miss having more styles of heavy melee cav to play with than JUST shock cav.

    Nobody is saying they don’t work. Or that they aren’t good at what they do. I’m sure Imrik can make them do their thing just fine.

    That doesn’t change the fact that ‘their thing’ feels off. I’m just saying they don’t do what they feel they should be good at...especially for those of us who enjoyed previous games.
  • Lord of CinderLord of Cinder Registered Users Posts: 471
    The whole melee/shock cavalry division is an incredibly stupid idea made up by CA.

    While it is possible to have units dedicated to charges thanks to the use of a lance or something, making them suck in melee to compensate is just bad design. Imagine a medieval knight who specializes in trampling something with a well-placed charge and then having to retreat as fast as possible despite their armor because they will get slaughtered in melee for reasons unknown. Why even bother with that armor at all then? The horse will tire much less and be more mobile without it. Stupid made-up weaknesses...

    I mention this when someone tries to use made-up game logic to justify why cavalry should or shouldn't behave in a certain way. Cavalry is probably done this way because of Medieval 2 where it could delete entire battalions in seconds and devs don't want to repeat that again.

    As far as Dragon Princes go, there are simply more effective units that do a better job at higher difficulties, do not require as much attention to cycle charge constantly, and cannot be countered by anti-large which is common in most armies. Funny enough, even Empire, Vampires, and Bretonnia, factions with some of the best cavalry will use other units to doomstack for this exact reason.
  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 1,656
    The melee/shock cavalry division made decent sense in two Total War games, Empire & Napoleon, as it was created to replicate the balance of power between the light Uhlan style lancers of the 18th Century and the Napoleonic Wars and the the main bulk of European cavalry which was armed with a variety of swords & sabres for the melee. For those games the weakness of 'shock' cavalry in melee is apropriate and based on historical fact.

    The thing is that the Uhlans effectivly carried what would be seen as a spear in the medieval or ancient period and it was used differently in combat than the heavy lance of a knight or the kontos of a cataphract. Applying the Uhlans weakness in melee to a Sassanid Cataphract is plain silly considering that the Sassanid cavalryman was armed and armoured to be able to continue to fight in the melee after the charge but CA seems to have become fixated with sticking to the current unit model despite it making no sense when applied to a lot of cavalry.
  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Registered Users Posts: 1,408
    You explained it yourself, even for Imirk you need tech, skills and banners. Play on higher battle difficulty and with all that they are just viable for him. Now compare that to dragons and sisters which are viable for every L and LL without buffs and tech. For non Imrik LL you can get dragons for just a little more upkeep and cash with just one more turn of recruitment and you can use dragons in a similar battlefield role.
    So if your unit choice isn't depending of flair, immersion and lore friendliness than the HE just have a way more effecient units to offer which fit other roles or can be used in a similar way.
  • YannirYannir Registered Users Posts: 1,638
    You're getting this wrong, dude.
    Dragon Princes are as viable as any other cavalry at its pricepoint.
    Which is the problem. Cavalry sucks in this game.

    But for Imrik specifically, who gets access to them at t3 because of the unique building in Darkhold, Dragon Princes are a good tool for the early game if you can afford them. For the late game, they have an issue of being as expensive as a dragon or a phoenix without providing the same amount of performance. Why would you get Dragon Princes when you can get a Star Dragon for the same price?
    Ugh, I have spoken.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,079
    Personally, I think that Imrik should stick to recruiting unique, one of a kind dragons, instead of going for mass production. But these dragons should look and feel really unique.



    P.S. I'm all for Dragon Princes buffs.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,617
    Yannir said:

    You're getting this wrong, dude.
    Dragon Princes are as viable as any other cavalry at its pricepoint.
    Which is the problem. Cavalry sucks in this game.

    But for Imrik specifically, who gets access to them at t3 because of the unique building in Darkhold, Dragon Princes are a good tool for the early game if you can afford them. For the late game, they have an issue of being as expensive as a dragon or a phoenix without providing the same amount of performance. Why would you get Dragon Princes when you can get a Star Dragon for the same price?

    I'm really confused why so many people think cavalry sucks. They're always some of my highest performing units and I play on VH battles.

    Maybe people are struggling with the no-charge bug.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    Valkaar said:

    Cvejo said:

    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    What is your opinion on the Sisters of Thorn?
    They’re their own thing. Definitely NOT heavy cav though so not really pertinent to this conversation.

    They’re magical support cav like Zoats and Doomfire Warlocks with bound spells.... except they’re ALSO a Skirmish cavalry unit. For their price point I think suffer a tad from ‘jack of all trades, master of none’ problem, as 9x out of 10, I’d rather being a Glade Rider and a Wizard for the cost.

    ^^but they’re tactically unique if nothing else. They’re definitely interesting and they suit the Wood Elf roster well, even though I rarely use them.

    They just aren’t melee cav. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Without cycle charging, they can’t even shave half the health off of some 700-800 gold regular infantry units such as Saurus (not Saurus with spears.... REGULAR Saurus).

    And while boosted by Ariel?
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    Yannir said:

    You're getting this wrong, dude.
    Dragon Princes are as viable as any other cavalry at its pricepoint.
    Which is the problem. Cavalry sucks in this game.

    But for Imrik specifically, who gets access to them at t3 because of the unique building in Darkhold, Dragon Princes are a good tool for the early game if you can afford them. For the late game, they have an issue of being as expensive as a dragon or a phoenix without providing the same amount of performance. Why would you get Dragon Princes when you can get a Star Dragon for the same price?

    Imrik's Dragonkin trait gives a -25% Upkeep reduction for Dragon Princes likewise. The Purified Graves of the Dragons from Darkhold grants another -15%. The Friends in High Places tech grants another -5% for the DP, and then another -5% from Imrik's unique Dedicated to Vaul skill. That's a whopping 50% Upkeep cost reduction, meaning they go down to just 175 per turn. That is most definitely not "at the cost of a Star Dragon".

    If go Quartermaster and Renowned&Feared that's another 23% Upkeep reduction, bringing them down to just a meager 95 gold per turn. I believe there's a hero trait that grants an even further upkeep cost reduction.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95

    You explained it yourself, even for Imirk you need tech, skills and banners. Play on higher battle difficulty and with all that they are just viable for him. Now compare that to dragons and sisters which are viable for every L and LL without buffs and tech. For non Imrik LL you can get dragons for just a little more upkeep and cash with just one more turn of recruitment and you can use dragons in a similar battlefield role.
    So if your unit choice isn't depending of flair, immersion and lore friendliness than the HE just have a way more effecient units to offer which fit other roles or can be used in a similar way.

    The difference isn't just in upkeep and turns of recruitment. Imrik grants the Dragons:
    * 15% Magic Resistance
    * 15 Armour
    * 35% Fire Resistance
    * 5 Leadership
    * -50% Vigour loss reduction
    * 10% Physical Resistance
    * 6 Melee Defense

    And, what is very important, besides his lance and flammable attacks he has an Ashen Fields passive that grants a MAP-WIDE +20% weakness to fire to hostile units. His unique Dragonhorn is useful too, as +24 Melee Attack is a lot, even for only a while.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,826
    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    Well they are heavy shock cav , there is literally few melee cav in this game rest are supposed to cycle charge. You answer your own question
    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.
    I mean there are true melee cav . Just not with High elf.

    Aka grail gurdians
    Eh not really. Grail Guardians among the closest to what people are actually thinking of. By Warhammer standards they’re supposed to be.

    But they’re still a far cry from what the old knights and cataphracts from older games used to feel like.
    Sorry mate but that isn't how this game is balanced.

    No cav in this game are that tanky and the reason every unit in this game also pay for speed , mass and CB.

    This is the price you have to pay for those.

    And the reason why they are not more tanky is very very simple there are ton of players who have the skill to micro them and cycle charge units , so such tankyness would make the unit class op.

    That said i did use dragon prince as front line troops in my imrik campaign so in campaign with enough buffs, and with bit of skill this more than possible .
    Nah. It’s just that the game balance in Warhammer is less nuanced when it comes to same unit categories.

    Like in older games, heavy cavalry that wasn’t lancers would come with less stamina overall (so you literally couldn’t cycle charge them without exhausting them ... but had to make sure you chose 1 good for them... preferably not against chaff or archers.... but deliberately picked a fight against elite infantry)

    OR the unit gave up a lot of charge bonus compared to lancers so you didn’t pay for the unit right away in 10 seconds.... but over time.

    Then lancers played like shock cav do now.

    It wasn’t balance vs non balance. It was flavor and play style and intricacies that are just missing.

    Grail Guardians for example... without cycle charging.... despite being ‘anti-infantry’ ... can only beat infantry half their cost or less. Infantry at 75% their cost.... not even anti-large units .... just regular units... like standard Chosen, beat them. Which feels weird.

    It’s the same thing in infantry fights too. In older titles.... you could line up a Legion vs a Phalanx of similar cost in dozen different pairs.... change the formation and line depth in each pair.... and have a different victor in each pairing.

    That nuance is entirely gone in Warhammer. You line up two different infantry types a dozen times.... and one is just going to win... each time... or if one doesn’t win it’s due to RNG of the hits.... not tactical deployment of the formation.

    People miss that old tactical variety within same unit types. It IS objectively missing.

    To Warhammer’s defense.... a ton more different unit types exist overall. Monsters, flyers, wizards, etc. but that didn’t have to be mutually exclusive with intricate infantry on infantry or cavalry on cavalry interplay. But it unfortunately was :(

    The example I’ve seen/used before.... is the older games, their rock/paper/scissors was just superior. More depth/nuance/variety to the rock/paper/scissors.

    Warhammer’s rock/paper/scissors is way more simple/sharp/concrete/less nuanced. But Warhammer added a lot more weapon types. So the game isn’t just rock/paper/scissors anymore. It’s rock/paper/scissors/grenade/shotgun/flamethrower. Which is its own form of enjoyable complexity to be sure! I’m glad new unit categories were added beyond just cavalry/infantry/missiles.

    ^^Yet, I can still enjoy the new unit categories while still missing the old unit balancing nuance. It would be cool to have both, they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. But CA currently treats them like they are.

    TL;DR: I like monsters and magic just fine. But I still miss formations/melee cav/etc. They don’t have to get rid of monsters to give us Phalanxes or Porcupines or true Knights back.
    Wait most elite cav are lancers . Literally look at the model all of them are using lances.

    And grial gurdians are just fine you need to use them as mobile anvils while they won't beat a chosen (and they shouldn't on horse or not chosen and a grail knight is in equal power level. So 60 chosen should beat 45 grail knights. ) they will jot die quickly to them allowing you to cycle charge the chosen with a grail knights.

    Any way there are plenty of things i will like to add to the balance of game.

    As for formations its more rsce specific like wedge formation for Bretonnia or phalanx for southern realms

    And good percentage of tighter formations are bad. Only good formation in this game is loose formation as it negates lot of the neagtives.


    As for ap damage , no comment right now because i am still looking up how it worked in the past. But if it was similar to how non ap damage worked in this game or was acting like pseduo HP than . Than this sytem is superior.

    Any way i like the current meta for better or worst in MP. Its not just stratagey and tactics. But its statagey and tactics and the skill to excute them which i like.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • overtaker40overtaker40 Registered Users Posts: 240

    Their main disadvantage is their lack of anti-large, which hurts them in matchups against enemy elite cavalry.

    I think its the opposite, too many all round units. all units should have things they a week against as well as their specialty so mixed build armys are more required.

    missle units should get a 20-40% damage reduction vs cavalry and other high speed units.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    If anyone thinks Dragon Princes suck, they're either bad at using cavalry, or they keep forgetting about Martial Mastery. 36 MA and 30 MD isn't exactly great, and if you ignore the +8/+12 they actually do look terrible.

    They've got one of the worst AP ratios, and that low WS and no BvL just screams loser against other cavalry, but once you throw in the bonuses, they outperform Grail Knights in a sustained melee. They might not match Blood Knights even then, 22 BvL and frenzy is hard to surmount, but they outperform them with infantry. They're also the cheapest of the three.
  • YannirYannir Registered Users Posts: 1,638
    Cvejo said:

    Yannir said:

    You're getting this wrong, dude.
    Dragon Princes are as viable as any other cavalry at its pricepoint.
    Which is the problem. Cavalry sucks in this game.

    But for Imrik specifically, who gets access to them at t3 because of the unique building in Darkhold, Dragon Princes are a good tool for the early game if you can afford them. For the late game, they have an issue of being as expensive as a dragon or a phoenix without providing the same amount of performance. Why would you get Dragon Princes when you can get a Star Dragon for the same price?

    Imrik's Dragonkin trait gives a -25% Upkeep reduction for Dragon Princes likewise. The Purified Graves of the Dragons from Darkhold grants another -15%. The Friends in High Places tech grants another -5% for the DP, and then another -5% from Imrik's unique Dedicated to Vaul skill. That's a whopping 50% Upkeep cost reduction, meaning they go down to just 175 per turn. That is most definitely not "at the cost of a Star Dragon".

    If go Quartermaster and Renowned&Feared that's another 23% Upkeep reduction, bringing them down to just a meager 95 gold per turn. I believe there's a hero trait that grants an even further upkeep cost reduction.
    How do you think that matters?
    Dragonkin applies to Dragons as well. YES THAT ALSO MEANS STAR DRAGONS. So does everything you just mentioned. AND then on top of that, the Dragon Keep unique building Vaul's Anvil, Caledor, gives -25% upkeep reduction for dragons. So yes, Star Dragons are actually cheaper for Imrik than Dragon Princes are.
    Ugh, I have spoken.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,923
    edited April 11
    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    saweendra said:

    Valkaar said:

    Yeah for their cost, they don’t compete with their counterparts in their weight class.

    Nor do they have any strong unique traits such as Blood Knight’s self-healing in melee or Demigryph’s low model count that makes Earth Blood/Regrowth viable for them. I know they get some unique traits but they’re situational and feel more thematic than useful.

    Additionally, ALL Melee cavalry, regardless of stats, is incredibly squishy and doesn’t apply cost-effective damage after their charge wears off. I’m not quite sure why this is. Like, I don’t know what mechanically causes this to be the case. But I do know it’s a deliberate design decision as it applies to almost ALL heavy cav. If you don’t constantly baby sit them, 9 times out of 10, they die. Even to units less than 1/5 their cost.

    ^^And this didn’t used to be true in past Total War games. Previous Total Wars there were true ‘Shock’ cavalry and Heavy Lancers, that were meant to charge and then gtfo. But there was ALSO heavy MELEE cavalry, that functioned like true cataphracts and knights where they charged, embedded themselves in melee, and could hold their own there in a protracted grind if necessary.

    ^This is not really possible in Warhammer. CA changed something about how Heavy Cavalry works in Warhammer specifically, that has drawn criticism for many units across the board, Dragon Princes included.

    Well they are heavy shock cav , there is literally few melee cav in this game rest are supposed to cycle charge. You answer your own question
    It’s not a question. It’s an explanation for why people are critical of Dragon Princes.

    It’s not a mystery to me that there’s only shock cav/no true melee cav in this game. It’s a critique.

    Many people miss having true melee cav. Especially at the top of the tech tree/price points (which is where melee cav used to reside...while shock cav was mid-tier to upper-mid tier).

    So having an upper tier unit in terms of cost/tech play like an old mid tier unit feels bad out of place to a lot of people.

    ^^Again, this is not a question. It’s an explanation for why people don’t like the unit. They don’t like the role that it, and other elite melee cav, have been relegated to.
    I mean there are true melee cav . Just not with High elf.

    Aka grail gurdians
    Eh not really. Grail Guardians among the closest to what people are actually thinking of. By Warhammer standards they’re supposed to be.

    But they’re still a far cry from what the old knights and cataphracts from older games used to feel like.
    Sorry mate but that isn't how this game is balanced.

    No cav in this game are that tanky and the reason every unit in this game also pay for speed , mass and CB.

    This is the price you have to pay for those.

    And the reason why they are not more tanky is very very simple there are ton of players who have the skill to micro them and cycle charge units , so such tankyness would make the unit class op.

    That said i did use dragon prince as front line troops in my imrik campaign so in campaign with enough buffs, and with bit of skill this more than possible .
    Nah. It’s just that the game balance in Warhammer is less nuanced when it comes to same unit categories.

    Like in older games, heavy cavalry that wasn’t lancers would come with less stamina overall (so you literally couldn’t cycle charge them without exhausting them ... but had to make sure you chose 1 good for them... preferably not against chaff or archers.... but deliberately picked a fight against elite infantry)

    OR the unit gave up a lot of charge bonus compared to lancers so you didn’t pay for the unit right away in 10 seconds.... but over time.

    Then lancers played like shock cav do now.

    It wasn’t balance vs non balance. It was flavor and play style and intricacies that are just missing.

    Grail Guardians for example... without cycle charging.... despite being ‘anti-infantry’ ... can only beat infantry half their cost or less. Infantry at 75% their cost.... not even anti-large units .... just regular units... like standard Chosen, beat them. Which feels weird.

    It’s the same thing in infantry fights too. In older titles.... you could line up a Legion vs a Phalanx of similar cost in dozen different pairs.... change the formation and line depth in each pair.... and have a different victor in each pairing.

    That nuance is entirely gone in Warhammer. You line up two different infantry types a dozen times.... and one is just going to win... each time... or if one doesn’t win it’s due to RNG of the hits.... not tactical deployment of the formation.

    People miss that old tactical variety within same unit types. It IS objectively missing.

    To Warhammer’s defense.... a ton more different unit types exist overall. Monsters, flyers, wizards, etc. but that didn’t have to be mutually exclusive with intricate infantry on infantry or cavalry on cavalry interplay. But it unfortunately was :(

    The example I’ve seen/used before.... is the older games, their rock/paper/scissors was just superior. More depth/nuance/variety to the rock/paper/scissors.

    Warhammer’s rock/paper/scissors is way more simple/sharp/concrete/less nuanced. But Warhammer added a lot more weapon types. So the game isn’t just rock/paper/scissors anymore. It’s rock/paper/scissors/grenade/shotgun/flamethrower. Which is its own form of enjoyable complexity to be sure! I’m glad new unit categories were added beyond just cavalry/infantry/missiles.

    ^^Yet, I can still enjoy the new unit categories while still missing the old unit balancing nuance. It would be cool to have both, they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. But CA currently treats them like they are.

    TL;DR: I like monsters and magic just fine. But I still miss formations/melee cav/etc. They don’t have to get rid of monsters to give us Phalanxes or Porcupines or true Knights back.
    As for ap damage , no comment right now because i am still looking up how it worked in the past. But if it was similar to how non ap damage worked in this game or was acting like pseduo HP than . Than this sytem is superior.

    Any way i like the current meta for better or worst in MP. Its not just stratagey and tactics. But its statagey and tactics and the skill to excute them which i like.
    Old AP systems worked similar to how Anti-large and anti-infantry work now. Not IDENTICAL ofc. I won’t pretend I know how the old math worked in terms of exact numbers. But overall, ‘bonuses’ like that were way less sharp in older games than they are now. Numbers aside, it functioned like a ‘bonus vs armor’.

    If an AP it attacked an armored target specifically, it was able to do more damage/punch above its pay grade. So you’d want to stick your halberd or axe units against Knights specifically. But they wouldn’t have the same level of cost effective performance against unarmored troops.

    I preferred it, because like Spearmen now, it made you have to choose your targets carefully. Currently, Warhammer AP is just a flat buff. AP units do their FULL damage to both armored, and non-armored targets. Going back to a ‘bonus vs armor’ system (with the bonus itself a little toned down) would give some niche relevance to non-AP units and lords.

    Side note: skill to apply tactics was omnipresent in all Total Wars. There wasn’t a ‘skill less’ one and a ‘skilled one’. The main differences over time have been balance (Atilla and 3k being horribly balanced compared to Warhammer or Rome 2 for example)....and tactical VARIETY. This is different from ‘skill’. Just the number of different types of strategies that could be attempted.

    Empire or Thrones of Britannia being the pinnacle of ‘very little variety’. Warhammer has some of the best variety. HOWEVER, Warhammer was kind of a ‘2 steps forward, one step back’ in terms of variety...... by eliminating things like formations! and melee cavalry!

    While adding a ton of of other things like magic and heroes and such.
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