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Sisters of Avelorn are overpriced

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  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 23,318
    Ten personal/inappropriate comments removed, along with several quoting in a response. Others edited.

    Discuss the thread topic folks, not your opinion of other folks opinions.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Registered Users Posts: 438
    I'll back Lotus up on the analysis. Sisters are at least 200 gold overpriced for what they bring to the table. There are various buffs that would potentially improve them (and fire on the move is more significant than a lot of people think because it means they don't stop shooting when repositioning or dodging spells) but they need a cost decrease to be viable.

    The fact that it is far more common for competitive players to bring regular archers and a plague of rust mage than to bring dedicated AP is telling. For that matter, even without plague of rust, standard archers still offer more damage per volley for gold spent until the target's armor is 100 and even lothern sea guard (non shielded) offer more damage per volley for gold spent until 80 armor.

    If your AP missiles don't offer cost effective damage vis a vis just bringing more nonAP missiles until the armor is over 100 they're overpriced.

    For reference, the crossover point for handgunners vis a vis crossbowmen is around 65 armor which is the same for the crossover between glade-guard and starfire shafts.

    Even at 900 gold, sisters of Avelorn would not offer cost effective damage per volley compared to regular archers until 85 armor targets.

    The fact that the break even point is still 20 more armor than empire and wood elf ranged variants is a reasonable price to pay for hybrid utility. 900 gold sisters would be cost effective compared to lothern sea guard at about 55 armor and compared to light armor archers around 75 armor. Those figures are reasonable given that between their bonus vs large and charge defense against large, lothern sea guard have considerably more hybrid utility than sisters and sisters are much more effective hybrids than light armor archers are.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,135

    I'll back Lotus up on the analysis. Sisters are at least 200 gold overpriced for what they bring to the table. There are various buffs that would potentially improve them (and fire on the move is more significant than a lot of people think because it means they don't stop shooting when repositioning or dodging spells) but they need a cost decrease to be viable.

    The fact that it is far more common for competitive players to bring regular archers and a plague of rust mage than to bring dedicated AP is telling. For that matter, even without plague of rust, standard archers still offer more damage per volley for gold spent until the target's armor is 100 and even lothern sea guard (non shielded) offer more damage per volley for gold spent until 80 armor.

    If your AP missiles don't offer cost effective damage vis a vis just bringing more nonAP missiles until the armor is over 100 they're overpriced.

    For reference, the crossover point for handgunners vis a vis crossbowmen is around 65 armor which is the same for the crossover between glade-guard and starfire shafts.

    Even at 900 gold, sisters of Avelorn would not offer cost effective damage per volley compared to regular archers until 85 armor targets.

    The fact that the break even point is still 20 more armor than empire and wood elf ranged variants is a reasonable price to pay for hybrid utility. 900 gold sisters would be cost effective compared to lothern sea guard at about 55 armor and compared to light armor archers around 75 armor. Those figures are reasonable given that between their bonus vs large and charge defense against large, lothern sea guard have considerably more hybrid utility than sisters and sisters are much more effective hybrids than light armor archers are.

    You're not backingme up on this but rawsugar.

    there is no way i think they are 200g overpriced, at most 50 and even that im not sure with.
  • HolySaintKnightHolySaintKnight Registered Users Posts: 4,462
    Just look at the whole roster before calling them overpriced, they cooperating very good with multiple builts.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 408

    Just look at the whole roster before calling them overpriced, they cooperating very good with multiple builts.

    Like? Tell me about multiple builds that contain SoA, I'd try them out in QB.

    I am of a countrary opinion. HE infantry is ineffective: 500g Spearmen are cost ineffective compared to other chaff, Rangers are specialized glass cannons, Silverins are overpriced, Elite is elite and can't go wide enough without boxing up.

    SoA pile on top of that issue by being too expensive. Hypothetically they should pay for themselves with the stats, but you don't want them caught up in melee because then they wouldn't be dishing out damage. High MD is needed for frontline units meant to hold the line - Sisters aren't supposed to be that. They need better melee damage output to combat the fact that they can be shutdown(not killed but stopped from shooting) by summons and fast attack units.

    And on top of that they are too vulnerable to artillery, spells and counter skirmishing: any two units of 475g ranged will overwhelm them despite Sisters firing first because of better range and technically still cost less even both were to die to them. Loose formation could help with that.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,049

    Just look at the whole roster before calling them overpriced, they cooperating very good with multiple builts.

    Like? Tell me about multiple builds that contain SoA, I'd try them out in QB.

    I am of a countrary opinion. HE infantry is ineffective: 500g Spearmen are cost ineffective compared to other chaff, Rangers are specialized glass cannons, Silverins are overpriced, Elite is elite and can't go wide enough without boxing up.

    SoA pile on top of that issue by being too expensive. Hypothetically they should pay for themselves with the stats, but you don't want them caught up in melee because then they wouldn't be dishing out damage. High MD is needed for frontline units meant to hold the line - Sisters aren't supposed to be that. They need better melee damage output to combat the fact that they can be shutdown(not killed but stopped from shooting) by summons and fast attack units.

    And on top of that they are too vulnerable to artillery, spells and counter skirmishing: any two units of 475g ranged will overwhelm them despite Sisters firing first because of better range and technically still cost less even both were to die to them. Loose formation could help with that.
    I don't have a strong opinion on whether they could use like 25 gold difference. They do seem to run out of ammo without amazing payoff in some games and could sweeten the incentive a bit.

    But their stats are helpful and they are an interesting hybrid unit. Their high stats can really make them durable vs the low stats of lizardmen for example, allowing for AP ranged units that won't melt just because of some temporary disruption to your back line. They can also work well vs brett and they can be a solid pick vs dark elves as well.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,577
    I wouldn't mind seeing a velocity increase on their missiles since they are magic missiles and not run of the mill archers.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,625
    They coupd use - 50 g i think.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • BRiiTASH2BRiiTASH2 Registered Users Posts: 586
    Im a little disappointed that the sisters only come with 1 innate ability (conjoined destiny).
    I feel that the sisters are very underwhelming when in melee and could so with one or two abilities to make them a more versatile melee combatant.
    Given how much they skirmish, I beleive foe seeker would be a balanced skill to give the sisters first of all as it directly buffs their speed and stamina temporarily making them more mobile.
    I also beleive deadly onslaught would make for a good secondary ability which would make their charges more impactful and encourage more players to have them engage in melee in the earlier stages of the battle rather than simply hover over the battlefield and shoot most of the battle.
    If the sisters engage in melee more often, we would likely see them trigger conjoined destiny more often rather than have them survive as one of the few remaining units on the battlefield, have their health get low, them then fleeing following by a full army rout losing the battle all before the conjoined destiny ability triggers. This is an especially common occurrence in multiplayer.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,135
    BRiiTASH2 said:

    Im a little disappointed that the sisters only come with 1 innate ability (conjoined destiny).
    I feel that the sisters are very underwhelming when in melee and could so with one or two abilities to make them a more versatile melee combatant.
    Given how much they skirmish, I beleive foe seeker would be a balanced skill to give the sisters first of all as it directly buffs their speed and stamina temporarily making them more mobile.
    I also beleive deadly onslaught would make for a good secondary ability which would make their charges more impactful and encourage more players to have them engage in melee in the earlier stages of the battle rather than simply hover over the battlefield and shoot most of the battle.
    If the sisters engage in melee more often, we would likely see them trigger conjoined destiny more often rather than have them survive as one of the few remaining units on the battlefield, have their health get low, them then fleeing following by a full army rout losing the battle all before the conjoined destiny ability triggers. This is an especially common occurrence in multiplayer.

    Wrong sisters
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