Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

My perspective on why TW Warhammer is not enjoyable

2»

Comments

  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,556

    This game is more about spectacle than strategy.

    A straight diet of nothing but pizza will have you hate pizza in no time.
    DOUBT
    You wanna' attempt it?
    You buying?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,538

    This game is more about spectacle than strategy.

    A straight diet of nothing but pizza will have you hate pizza in no time.
    DOUBT
    You wanna' attempt it?
    You buying?
    You sure you wanna' leave that choice to me?


  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 4,477

    This game is more about spectacle than strategy.

    A straight diet of nothing but pizza will have you hate pizza in no time.
    DOUBT
    You wanna' attempt it?
    You buying?
    You sure you wanna' leave that choice to me?
    I'll take pepperoni and jalapenos on mine. Thanks bud!
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,014
    PPerun said:

    Simply: because the AI tries so hard on the campaign map. It cheats, it tries to outmanoeuvre player (and other AIs), it builds armies with terrible composition, just to be able to spam its enemies ASAP with whatever it has.
    In the same time, it doesnt pay any attention to distributing skills, developing its cities and, as mentioned, reasonable compositions.
    It just seems that somewhere during the development a terrible, terrible decision has been made how to develop the AI. I can imagine that the idea was to provide "challenge" but ironically, the AI is predictable and instead of being difficult to best, its just annoying. What is more, its strategies just encourage casual players to cheese via doomstacking and whatnot.
    A terrible, terrible design.

    It's not design. It's simply that programming AI for 4X, open strategy games is extremely difficult. The more possible choices there are in a game, the more stupid an AI is.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,014
    PPerun said:

    Beef545 said:

    Better AI isn't an easy thing to implement. Giving AI cheats is an easier and cheaper way to solve the issue. Personally I am fine with it-you can adjust AI's cheats to ur personal tastes by choosing difficulty.

    In my opinion it creates more issues than it solves
    And dont make me start about the difficulty settings, each setting has its own downsides. The easy ones are easy and the hard ones just destroy balance and immersion.
    I play TW games from the first Shogun and have no problems winning whatever there is to win but I have problems with enjoying the game in its current state.

    Is good AI hard to implement? Whenever I hear this argument I would like to bring Starcrafts AI to the table. It scouts, it adapts and provides challenge as well as space to react.
    Starcraft doesn't have a grand strategy component.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,538
    Bonutz said:

    This game is more about spectacle than strategy.

    A straight diet of nothing but pizza will have you hate pizza in no time.
    DOUBT
    You wanna' attempt it?
    You buying?
    You sure you wanna' leave that choice to me?
    I'll take pepperoni and jalapenos on mine. Thanks bud!
    Pepperoni and jalapenos are out. Only anchovies left.


  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,085
    edited April 13
    Xenos7777 said:

    PPerun said:

    Beef545 said:

    Better AI isn't an easy thing to implement. Giving AI cheats is an easier and cheaper way to solve the issue. Personally I am fine with it-you can adjust AI's cheats to ur personal tastes by choosing difficulty.

    In my opinion it creates more issues than it solves
    And dont make me start about the difficulty settings, each setting has its own downsides. The easy ones are easy and the hard ones just destroy balance and immersion.
    I play TW games from the first Shogun and have no problems winning whatever there is to win but I have problems with enjoying the game in its current state.

    Is good AI hard to implement? Whenever I hear this argument I would like to bring Starcrafts AI to the table. It scouts, it adapts and provides challenge as well as space to react.
    Starcraft doesn't have a grand strategy component.
    Starcraft has a superior AI though.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,718
    edited April 13

    Xenos7777 said:

    PPerun said:

    Beef545 said:

    Better AI isn't an easy thing to implement. Giving AI cheats is an easier and cheaper way to solve the issue. Personally I am fine with it-you can adjust AI's cheats to ur personal tastes by choosing difficulty.

    In my opinion it creates more issues than it solves
    And dont make me start about the difficulty settings, each setting has its own downsides. The easy ones are easy and the hard ones just destroy balance and immersion.
    I play TW games from the first Shogun and have no problems winning whatever there is to win but I have problems with enjoying the game in its current state.

    Is good AI hard to implement? Whenever I hear this argument I would like to bring Starcrafts AI to the table. It scouts, it adapts and provides challenge as well as space to react.
    Starcraft doesn't have a grand strategy component.
    Starcraft has a superior AI though.
    It doesn’t. It sends scouts to ‘imitate’ what a player might do, but the AI does NOT alter its own strategy based on what that scout sees. If it sees you taking a greedy expansion, it doesn’t do a timing to punish it. If it sees you being overly turtle-y, it doesn’t go out and take the map.

    In campaign, all of its attacks and builds are scripted, and play the same way each time.

    In custom player vs AI quick matches it’s the same, but you just have to find out which script you’re up against.

    Like there is a ‘tech rush to air’ script, an ‘aggressive timing attack’ script, a more timid ‘mass economy’ script. Which script the AI is running is pre-determined at the start of the match and will NEVER change based on player decisions. So if you figure out which script it is, you know EXACTLY what the AI will do.

    ^^And the script never changes mid-match or change based on a scout. Like if the ‘economy’ script is running, and it scouts you getting ready to attack .... it still haplessly tries to take the expansion while not building any extra, unscripted units. The scout is just there for show/to imitate immersion.

    Additionally, AI difficulty increases function exactly like Total War’s in that all the AI does when difficulty is increased is become more aggressive (it attacks sooner) and it gets artificial economic buffs.

    It DOES NOT play the match any smarter. It does the same script but with a passive delay on easier difficulties.

    There apparently IS a Starcraft-playing AI that Blizzard developed (similar to those chess-playing programs that Grandmasters would face off against)... that is fairly clever.

    ^^but this AI is not in the actual game. Blizzard has let some universities run studies with it and have it play against pros for some show matches. But as a regular player, you cannot/will never encounter this ‘think on its feet’ AI.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,930
    I enjoy the game personally, I guess that’s why I play it and buy the DLC.

    I’m pretty sure CA have the know how to make the AI more efficient but that itself comes with problems.

    From the few videos I’ve seen the TW AI is pretty advanced and I’m pretty sure 100% of the forum members would have no idea how to replicate it. That’s probably why other companies can’t create a similar game.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,085
    edited April 13

    I enjoy the game personally, I guess that’s why I play it and buy the DLC.

    I’m pretty sure CA have the know how to make the AI more efficient but that itself comes with problems.

    From the few videos I’ve seen the TW AI is pretty advanced and I’m pretty sure 100% of the forum members would have no idea how to replicate it. That’s probably why other companies can’t create a similar game.

    I don't think companies want to, the strategy genre isn't a big market in gaming. Hasn't been for years.
    Valkaar said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    PPerun said:

    Beef545 said:

    Better AI isn't an easy thing to implement. Giving AI cheats is an easier and cheaper way to solve the issue. Personally I am fine with it-you can adjust AI's cheats to ur personal tastes by choosing difficulty.

    In my opinion it creates more issues than it solves
    And dont make me start about the difficulty settings, each setting has its own downsides. The easy ones are easy and the hard ones just destroy balance and immersion.
    I play TW games from the first Shogun and have no problems winning whatever there is to win but I have problems with enjoying the game in its current state.

    Is good AI hard to implement? Whenever I hear this argument I would like to bring Starcrafts AI to the table. It scouts, it adapts and provides challenge as well as space to react.
    Starcraft doesn't have a grand strategy component.
    Starcraft has a superior AI though.
    It doesn’t. It sends scouts to ‘imitate’ what a player might do, but the AI does NOT alter its own strategy based on what that scout sees. If it sees you taking a greedy expansion, it doesn’t do a timing to punish it. If it sees you being overly turtle-y, it doesn’t go out and take the map.

    In campaign, all of its attacks and builds are scripted, and play the same way each time.

    In custom player vs AI quick matches it’s the same, but you just have to find out which script you’re up against.

    Like there is a ‘tech rush to air’ script, an ‘aggressive timing attack’ script, a more timid ‘mass economy’ script. Which script the AI is running is pre-determined at the start of the match and will NEVER change based on player decisions. So if you figure out which script it is, you know EXACTLY what the AI will do.

    ^^And the script never changes mid-match or change based on a scout. Like if the ‘economy’ script is running, and it scouts you getting ready to attack .... it still haplessly tries to take the expansion while not building any extra, unscripted units. The scout is just there for show/to imitate immersion.

    Additionally, AI difficulty increases function exactly like Total War’s in that all the AI does when difficulty is increased is become more aggressive (it attacks sooner) and it gets artificial economic buffs.

    It DOES NOT play the match any smarter. It does the same script but with a passive delay on easier difficulties.

    There apparently IS a Starcraft-playing AI that Blizzard developed (similar to those chess-playing programs that Grandmasters would face off against)... that is fairly clever.

    ^^but this AI is not in the actual game. Blizzard has let some universities run studies with it and have it play against pros for some show matches. But as a regular player, you cannot/will never encounter this ‘think on its feet’ AI.
    Except the AI still makes sense, Total War's AI does non sensical actions in both battles and the campaign map.
  • MasariusMasarius Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,169

    The thing that ****s me off is when the AI force marches an army through my entire empire just to reach the one settlement that doesn't have walls.

    Why wouldn't they do that though? You clearly had no army capable of intercepting.. The AI should be targeting weak points..
    Yes and people make it out be as "bad AI". Like my ass, you people got simply played and fooled.

    Same about the "tries outmanoeuvre player" - like shouldn't it be doing that even more?

    People have no clue what would happen if the AI would actually be better in the sense of strategic decisions and battle performance.

    You plebs would be slaugthered in the hundreds.
    Till shade is gone,
    till water is gone,
    into the Shadow with the teeth bared,
    screaming defiance with the last breath,
    to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day
  • PPerunPPerun Registered Users Posts: 222
    Valkaar said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    PPerun said:

    Beef545 said:

    Better AI isn't an easy thing to implement. Giving AI cheats is an easier and cheaper way to solve the issue. Personally I am fine with it-you can adjust AI's cheats to ur personal tastes by choosing difficulty.

    In my opinion it creates more issues than it solves
    And dont make me start about the difficulty settings, each setting has its own downsides. The easy ones are easy and the hard ones just destroy balance and immersion.
    I play TW games from the first Shogun and have no problems winning whatever there is to win but I have problems with enjoying the game in its current state.

    Is good AI hard to implement? Whenever I hear this argument I would like to bring Starcrafts AI to the table. It scouts, it adapts and provides challenge as well as space to react.
    Starcraft doesn't have a grand strategy component.
    Starcraft has a superior AI though.
    It doesn’t. It sends scouts to ‘imitate’ what a player might do, but the AI does NOT alter its own strategy based on what that scout sees. If it sees you taking a greedy expansion, it doesn’t do a timing to punish it. If it sees you being overly turtle-y, it doesn’t go out and take the map.

    In campaign, all of its attacks and builds are scripted, and play the same way each time.

    In custom player vs AI quick matches it’s the same, but you just have to find out which script you’re up against.

    Like there is a ‘tech rush to air’ script, an ‘aggressive timing attack’ script, a more timid ‘mass economy’ script. Which script the AI is running is pre-determined at the start of the match and will NEVER change based on player decisions. So if you figure out which script it is, you know EXACTLY what the AI will do.

    ^^And the script never changes mid-match or change based on a scout. Like if the ‘economy’ script is running, and it scouts you getting ready to attack .... it still haplessly tries to take the expansion while not building any extra, unscripted units. The scout is just there for show/to imitate immersion.

    Additionally, AI difficulty increases function exactly like Total War’s in that all the AI does when difficulty is increased is become more aggressive (it attacks sooner) and it gets artificial economic buffs.

    It DOES NOT play the match any smarter. It does the same script but with a passive delay on easier difficulties.

    There apparently IS a Starcraft-playing AI that Blizzard developed (similar to those chess-playing programs that Grandmasters would face off against)... that is fairly clever.

    ^^but this AI is not in the actual game. Blizzard has let some universities run studies with it and have it play against pros for some show matches. But as a regular player, you cannot/will never encounter this ‘think on its feet’ AI.
    The thing is, if starcraft ai catches you training dark templars, it will welcome you with detectors. If you reveal yourself building airships, you will encounter strong anti air, etc, etc. And that alone is much more impressive than whatever TW ai does.

    But again, the point is not to make it super competitive, the point is to help it a bit to make sense. Its not about Wurzag being genius, its about him, having a giant and 18 units of savage ork boys, NOT choosing a skill to boost chariots as early as turn 10. Or King Louen, having 3 skill points in knights, NOT training 7 grail reliquaries and 12 peasants because he is in such a hurry to cross the sea and take some forgotten settlement.
    I believe that making templates for both skills and buildings would help a lot. And then some tweaks of aggression and we're good.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,085
    Masarius said:

    The thing that ****s me off is when the AI force marches an army through my entire empire just to reach the one settlement that doesn't have walls.

    Why wouldn't they do that though? You clearly had no army capable of intercepting.. The AI should be targeting weak points..
    Yes and people make it out be as "bad AI". Like my ass, you people got simply played and fooled.

    Same about the "tries outmanoeuvre player" - like shouldn't it be doing that even more?

    People have no clue what would happen if the AI would actually be better in the sense of strategic decisions and battle performance.

    You plebs would be slaugthered in the hundreds.
    This isn't about turning the AI into Skynet, this is about the AI just making sensical decisions.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 22,162
    Moved.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,718
    PPerun said:

    Valkaar said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    PPerun said:

    Beef545 said:

    Better AI isn't an easy thing to implement. Giving AI cheats is an easier and cheaper way to solve the issue. Personally I am fine with it-you can adjust AI's cheats to ur personal tastes by choosing difficulty.

    In my opinion it creates more issues than it solves
    And dont make me start about the difficulty settings, each setting has its own downsides. The easy ones are easy and the hard ones just destroy balance and immersion.
    I play TW games from the first Shogun and have no problems winning whatever there is to win but I have problems with enjoying the game in its current state.

    Is good AI hard to implement? Whenever I hear this argument I would like to bring Starcrafts AI to the table. It scouts, it adapts and provides challenge as well as space to react.
    Starcraft doesn't have a grand strategy component.
    Starcraft has a superior AI though.
    It doesn’t. It sends scouts to ‘imitate’ what a player might do, but the AI does NOT alter its own strategy based on what that scout sees. If it sees you taking a greedy expansion, it doesn’t do a timing to punish it. If it sees you being overly turtle-y, it doesn’t go out and take the map.

    In campaign, all of its attacks and builds are scripted, and play the same way each time.

    In custom player vs AI quick matches it’s the same, but you just have to find out which script you’re up against.

    Like there is a ‘tech rush to air’ script, an ‘aggressive timing attack’ script, a more timid ‘mass economy’ script. Which script the AI is running is pre-determined at the start of the match and will NEVER change based on player decisions. So if you figure out which script it is, you know EXACTLY what the AI will do.

    ^^And the script never changes mid-match or change based on a scout. Like if the ‘economy’ script is running, and it scouts you getting ready to attack .... it still haplessly tries to take the expansion while not building any extra, unscripted units. The scout is just there for show/to imitate immersion.

    Additionally, AI difficulty increases function exactly like Total War’s in that all the AI does when difficulty is increased is become more aggressive (it attacks sooner) and it gets artificial economic buffs.

    It DOES NOT play the match any smarter. It does the same script but with a passive delay on easier difficulties.

    There apparently IS a Starcraft-playing AI that Blizzard developed (similar to those chess-playing programs that Grandmasters would face off against)... that is fairly clever.

    ^^but this AI is not in the actual game. Blizzard has let some universities run studies with it and have it play against pros for some show matches. But as a regular player, you cannot/will never encounter this ‘think on its feet’ AI.
    The thing is, if starcraft ai catches you training dark templars, it will welcome you with detectors. If you reveal yourself building airships, you will encounter strong anti air, etc, etc. And that alone is much more impressive than whatever TW ai does.

    But again, the point is not to make it super competitive, the point is to help it a bit to make sense. Its not about Wurzag being genius, its about him, having a giant and 18 units of savage ork boys, NOT choosing a skill to boost chariots as early as turn 10. Or King Louen, having 3 skill points in knights, NOT training 7 grail reliquaries and 12 peasants because he is in such a hurry to cross the sea and take some forgotten settlement.
    I believe that making templates for both skills and buildings would help a lot. And then some tweaks of aggression and we're good.
    It does neither of those things. It always blindly builds detection no matter what. The same amount of detection too. What you do is irrelevant.

    It also does NOT build any more or less anti-air based on your build. My co-op partner have FREQUENTLY made jokes about how we’re building mass carriers. Have attacked with mass carriers. Have defended with mass carriers. And yet we both know, the next AI army we see on the map is going to have at least some Ultralisks/Siege Tanks etc. in it.... cuz lol script.

    ^^some scripts do have more anti-air in their builds. But it’s still script dependent. Not sensically reacting to the player.

    Each script does the EXACT same thing the Total War AI does. It builds a random mix of units based on a script. The only reason why you see different armies different games is because of the script you’re facing.

    Like one match, if you’re facing the 3 minute-all in script, you’re gonna see a lot of roaches. Constantly. Throughout the whole game. It might change from roach-ling to roach-hydra to roach-Ultra if you let the game go on long enough. But it will keep feeding roaches into your Void Rays all game long.

    But you could theoretically face the ‘air’ script... so you’re more likely to see 5-minute mutalisks, followed by corruptor/brood lord.

    ^^which you get is random. Just like it’s random whether or not you’re going to get Alastair the White Lion with a mixed army or a Star Dragon stack.

    Don’t get me wrong.... it’d be cool if the AI saw you building mostly large and then started recruiting more anti-large as a result. Or if lords had more coding emphasis to more strictly recruit the units they had bonuses for. Like if Tehenhauin primarily only appeared on the map with Skinks.

    ^That would be cool. The random mix with occasional cheese stack is predictable and one dimensional and too obvious that the AI is slaving to a recruitment script whether it makes sense or not.

    ^^but the Starcraft AI does the EXACT same thing. Literally to a ‘T’.
  • VikingHuscal1066VikingHuscal1066 Registered Users Posts: 1,779
    I'm sorry, but the OP needs to quit this crying about the AI.

    From what I understand, you can tweak certain aspects of the AI before you start the campaign. So I really don't think it's nearly as bad as the OP thinks.


    And I do find it baffling that people can't just suck it up and enjoy the Total War: Warhammer games.

    I mean, they bring so much variety to the table in terms of what sorts of factions and mechanics and such things.

    And I'll give some people that a few aspects could be handled better, which I'm pretty sure a number of mods handle.


    But what I can't stand are the people who never even bothered trying out Warhammer 1 back when it was newer.

    And well, I like to refer the people who turn their noses up toward the TW Warhammer games as "history snobs".

    I call them history snobs because they seem to not like the game for the most petty of reasons, one of the main ones being that they're a fantasy setting rather than one of their precious historical time periods.


    And it just really bugs me, because I was a TW fan long before I ever knew what any Warhammer was, and I still think it's dumb for people to get all divided about it.

    And I personally think that this whole divide wasn't started by the new Warhammer fans coming to the TW games, but by some of those previously mentioned history snobs acting like jerks and acting like the historical settings were objectively superior to fantasy ones.

    Though I'm sure the truth is that jerks from both sides of the TW games were responsible for it.
  • PPerunPPerun Registered Users Posts: 222
    Valkaar said:

    PPerun said:

    Valkaar said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    PPerun said:

    Beef545 said:

    Better AI isn't an easy thing to implement. Giving AI cheats is an easier and cheaper way to solve the issue. Personally I am fine with it-you can adjust AI's cheats to ur personal tastes by choosing difficulty.

    In my opinion it creates more issues than it solves
    And dont make me start about the difficulty settings, each setting has its own downsides. The easy ones are easy and the hard ones just destroy balance and immersion.
    I play TW games from the first Shogun and have no problems winning whatever there is to win but I have problems with enjoying the game in its current state.

    Is good AI hard to implement? Whenever I hear this argument I would like to bring Starcrafts AI to the table. It scouts, it adapts and provides challenge as well as space to react.
    Starcraft doesn't have a grand strategy component.
    Starcraft has a superior AI though.
    It doesn’t. It sends scouts to ‘imitate’ what a player might do, but the AI does NOT alter its own strategy based on what that scout sees. If it sees you taking a greedy expansion, it doesn’t do a timing to punish it. If it sees you being overly turtle-y, it doesn’t go out and take the map.

    In campaign, all of its attacks and builds are scripted, and play the same way each time.

    In custom player vs AI quick matches it’s the same, but you just have to find out which script you’re up against.

    Like there is a ‘tech rush to air’ script, an ‘aggressive timing attack’ script, a more timid ‘mass economy’ script. Which script the AI is running is pre-determined at the start of the match and will NEVER change based on player decisions. So if you figure out which script it is, you know EXACTLY what the AI will do.

    ^^And the script never changes mid-match or change based on a scout. Like if the ‘economy’ script is running, and it scouts you getting ready to attack .... it still haplessly tries to take the expansion while not building any extra, unscripted units. The scout is just there for show/to imitate immersion.

    Additionally, AI difficulty increases function exactly like Total War’s in that all the AI does when difficulty is increased is become more aggressive (it attacks sooner) and it gets artificial economic buffs.

    It DOES NOT play the match any smarter. It does the same script but with a passive delay on easier difficulties.

    There apparently IS a Starcraft-playing AI that Blizzard developed (similar to those chess-playing programs that Grandmasters would face off against)... that is fairly clever.

    ^^but this AI is not in the actual game. Blizzard has let some universities run studies with it and have it play against pros for some show matches. But as a regular player, you cannot/will never encounter this ‘think on its feet’ AI.
    The thing is, if starcraft ai catches you training dark templars, it will welcome you with detectors. If you reveal yourself building airships, you will encounter strong anti air, etc, etc. And that alone is much more impressive than whatever TW ai does.

    But again, the point is not to make it super competitive, the point is to help it a bit to make sense. Its not about Wurzag being genius, its about him, having a giant and 18 units of savage ork boys, NOT choosing a skill to boost chariots as early as turn 10. Or King Louen, having 3 skill points in knights, NOT training 7 grail reliquaries and 12 peasants because he is in such a hurry to cross the sea and take some forgotten settlement.
    I believe that making templates for both skills and buildings would help a lot. And then some tweaks of aggression and we're good.
    It does neither of those things. It always blindly builds detection no matter what. The same amount of detection too. What you do is irrelevant.

    It also does NOT build any more or less anti-air based on your build. My co-op partner have FREQUENTLY made jokes about how we’re building mass carriers. Have attacked with mass carriers. Have defended with mass carriers. And yet we both know, the next AI army we see on the map is going to have at least some Ultralisks/Siege Tanks etc. in it.... cuz lol script.

    ^^some scripts do have more anti-air in their builds. But it’s still script dependent. Not sensically reacting to the player.

    Each script does the EXACT same thing the Total War AI does. It builds a random mix of units based on a script. The only reason why you see different armies different games is because of the script you’re facing.

    Like one match, if you’re facing the 3 minute-all in script, you’re gonna see a lot of roaches. Constantly. Throughout the whole game. It might change from roach-ling to roach-hydra to roach-Ultra if you let the game go on long enough. But it will keep feeding roaches into your Void Rays all game long.

    But you could theoretically face the ‘air’ script... so you’re more likely to see 5-minute mutalisks, followed by corruptor/brood lord.

    ^^which you get is random. Just like it’s random whether or not you’re going to get Alastair the White Lion with a mixed army or a Star Dragon stack.

    Don’t get me wrong.... it’d be cool if the AI saw you building mostly large and then started recruiting more anti-large as a result. Or if lords had more coding emphasis to more strictly recruit the units they had bonuses for. Like if Tehenhauin primarily only appeared on the map with Skinks.

    ^That would be cool. The random mix with occasional cheese stack is predictable and one dimensional and too obvious that the AI is slaving to a recruitment script whether it makes sense or not.

    ^^but the Starcraft AI does the EXACT same thing. Literally to a ‘T’.
    Well, it seems we have completely different experience playing Starcraft. I remember the AI adapting to what you do, at least in some extent but I am not going to convince you at all cost.

    I would just like to repeat once more, what I am advocating for is not making super advanced ai capable of playing chess with Casparov but reinventing the goals of the ai and helping it to stand on its legs with some scripts. If lords would choose red skills accordingly to their possibilities and then recruit units accordingly to their skills, battles would be 50-100% more challenging that they are now because now the AI just brings whatever to keep up its own, unnecessarily fast, pace. And then you end up fighting paper soldiers and the battle is won before you use any strategy whatsoever.
    And why is that? IMO, its a relic of first TW games when there wasnt that much of choices to be made when it comes to army composition because there were, like, early game archers and end game archers, etc, and there was no character development whatsoever. The AI was designed to provided some kind of a challenge on the campaign map where you needed to find a way to game it. TW Warhammer, though, is much more complex than that and evolved into kind of an rpg hybrid. The AI fails to provide a challenge, everyone got used to that and labeled the game as "spectacle" game and thats ok, I guess, but the thing is that the ai is too annoying and small minded to provide in that area as well. The solution: calm it down, focus on character development and army composition.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,930

    I enjoy the game personally, I guess that’s why I play it and buy the DLC.

    I’m pretty sure CA have the know how to make the AI more efficient but that itself comes with problems.

    From the few videos I’ve seen the TW AI is pretty advanced and I’m pretty sure 100% of the forum members would have no idea how to replicate it. That’s probably why other companies can’t create a similar game.

    I don't think companies want to, the strategy genre isn't a big market in gaming. Hasn't been for years.
    Valkaar said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    PPerun said:

    Beef545 said:

    Better AI isn't an easy thing to implement. Giving AI cheats is an easier and cheaper way to solve the issue. Personally I am fine with it-you can adjust AI's cheats to ur personal tastes by choosing difficulty.

    In my opinion it creates more issues than it solves
    And dont make me start about the difficulty settings, each setting has its own downsides. The easy ones are easy and the hard ones just destroy balance and immersion.
    I play TW games from the first Shogun and have no problems winning whatever there is to win but I have problems with enjoying the game in its current state.

    Is good AI hard to implement? Whenever I hear this argument I would like to bring Starcrafts AI to the table. It scouts, it adapts and provides challenge as well as space to react.
    Starcraft doesn't have a grand strategy component.
    Starcraft has a superior AI though.
    It doesn’t. It sends scouts to ‘imitate’ what a player might do, but the AI does NOT alter its own strategy based on what that scout sees. If it sees you taking a greedy expansion, it doesn’t do a timing to punish it. If it sees you being overly turtle-y, it doesn’t go out and take the map.

    In campaign, all of its attacks and builds are scripted, and play the same way each time.

    In custom player vs AI quick matches it’s the same, but you just have to find out which script you’re up against.

    Like there is a ‘tech rush to air’ script, an ‘aggressive timing attack’ script, a more timid ‘mass economy’ script. Which script the AI is running is pre-determined at the start of the match and will NEVER change based on player decisions. So if you figure out which script it is, you know EXACTLY what the AI will do.

    ^^And the script never changes mid-match or change based on a scout. Like if the ‘economy’ script is running, and it scouts you getting ready to attack .... it still haplessly tries to take the expansion while not building any extra, unscripted units. The scout is just there for show/to imitate immersion.

    Additionally, AI difficulty increases function exactly like Total War’s in that all the AI does when difficulty is increased is become more aggressive (it attacks sooner) and it gets artificial economic buffs.

    It DOES NOT play the match any smarter. It does the same script but with a passive delay on easier difficulties.

    There apparently IS a Starcraft-playing AI that Blizzard developed (similar to those chess-playing programs that Grandmasters would face off against)... that is fairly clever.

    ^^but this AI is not in the actual game. Blizzard has let some universities run studies with it and have it play against pros for some show matches. But as a regular player, you cannot/will never encounter this ‘think on its feet’ AI.
    Except the AI still makes sense, Total War's AI does non sensical actions in both battles and the campaign map.
    There are lots of strategy games out there and considering how much CA fly up the global charts it would be tempting.

    The fact is they are good at what they do, not a perfect experience but I'd say a lot of people are seriously unrealistic.
Sign In or Register to comment.