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If Skink archers didn't break Lizardmen's TT style, why wouldn't they fit in TW's Lizardmen roster?

IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 3,588
edited April 28 in General Discussion




I need skins to stay behind my lines of saurus.

Maybe giving them weak against armor and poor leadership could make you think twice before filling you armies with archers only when playing Lizardmen.

I dunno why people think they will lose identity-
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Post edited by IamNotArobot on
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Comments

  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 22,429
    They would be a great filler unit and give LM some more ranged options. Perfect for Oxyotl.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • Xerxes52Xerxes52 Registered Users Posts: 730
    I kinda like the idea of Skink and Chameleon Skink archers. Give them poison attacks, relatively low range (say around 125) and poor armor penetration like Skeleton Archers and they'd be a good early-mid game addition to the Lizardmen.
  • TheWattmanTheWattman Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 618
    I agree with @ArneSo, it fits Oxyotl's ranged/stealth theme perfectly for a WH3 LP.

    Tetto'eko brings Skink Braves as basic infantry, Oxyotl brings Skink Archers. Tetto'eko brings Coatl and Troglodon, Oxyotl brings Arcanadon.
  • TexacoV2TexacoV2 Registered Users Posts: 536
    Well they weren't in the later edition, so thats probably why.
  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 681
    ok, but only after when one mage can break your dino artillery after couple of fireballs
    BsFG dwarf
  • yukontherunyukontherun Registered Users Posts: 558
    I'm never gonna say no to lizardmen content, but lizardmen archers were supposed to be replaced by skink skirmishers. Which in SP are pretty bad, true, but I don't think they need replacement.

    Speaking of weird units, we may as well get lizardmen raiders, the lizard version of handbow corsairs . I see them both having the same chance of making it in.

  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 4,426
    TexacoV2 said:

    Well they weren't in the later edition, so thats probably why.

    Doesn't mean anything. We got the War Wagon after all.

    Far as I'm concerned, Skink Archers would be pretty dope.
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 3,588

    ok, but only after when one mage can break your dino artillery after couple of fireballs

    Maybe ice magic will make artillery slower or something like that, maybe incapacitate it for a time.
    *Justice and CONFEDERATION for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast!
    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!


  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 31,746
    See absolutely no reason to include this other than people being used to how broken archers are in this game.

  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    This isn't really an argument.

    What's problematic is peoples expectations.

    You want the old skink archers back? Totally fine. They're a thematic fit, they're historically accurate to the real world civilizations this faction is based on. There's zero problem here.

    They're short bows.

    Like Goblin Archers.

    115 range, 10+1 AP.

    I'm pretty sure most of the people getting excited over this, one way or the other, are expecting something a bit more practical for a line archer. Lizardmen never had a line archer, they had skirmishers. It would be totally fine to put a sustained damage ranged unit out there. Just another short range, low damage skirmisher with poison. It would just have a little more range, and need to face forward to fire. It's still gonna be inferior to Chameleon Skinks by a long, long ways.
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 3,588
    psychoak said:

    This isn't really an argument.

    What's problematic is peoples expectations.

    You want the old skink archers back? Totally fine. They're a thematic fit, they're historically accurate to the real world civilizations this faction is based on. There's zero problem here.

    They're short bows.

    Like Goblin Archers.

    115 range, 10+1 AP.

    I'm pretty sure most of the people getting excited over this, one way or the other, are expecting something a bit more practical for a line archer. Lizardmen never had a line archer, they had skirmishers. It would be totally fine to put a sustained damage ranged unit out there. Just another short range, low damage skirmisher with poison. It would just have a little more range, and need to face forward to fire. It's still gonna be inferior to Chameleon Skinks by a long, long ways.

    yes!
    *Justice and CONFEDERATION for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast!
    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!


  • Jote191Jote191 Registered Users Posts: 576
    They could add it but I feel like they're a little pointless
  • RoadkizzleRoadkizzle Registered Users Posts: 18
    Man I'd be excited.

    I played the tabletop back in 6th edition with Skinks with bows.

    I filled my army with them and I only took one smallish unit of Saurus. It was so fun having my skinks literally running circles around the enemy.

    I could move fast enough and they were Skirmishers so I could keep out of charging movement arcs while peppering my opponent with poisoned arrows.

    The most amusing thing was that my main opponent played Tomb Kings and his Bone Giant could never reach anything to charge because of my skinks. The bows were low strength so I could only wound it if I rolled a 6. But they were poisoned so if I rolled a 6 to hit then it automatically wounded and I wouldn't have to roll again. They were low armor so it normally wouldn't get saved.

    We could never figure out how the bone constructs were so vulnerable to poison.
  • RoadkizzleRoadkizzle Registered Users Posts: 18
    I'd agree that their missile attacks would be similar to goblin archers. Slightly longer range than the blowpipes, slightly higher dmg than the blowpipes but slightly slower rate of fire.

    Then maybe some other effect with them to distinguish them a little more from the blowpipes.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 5,708
    They'd be almost completely useless bloat that overlaps with skink skirmishers. Which isn't surprising since Skinks with Blowpipes where added to replace Skink Archers and provide the Lizardmen with a little thematic faction distinction not actually change the way they play.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 3,588
    OdTengri said:

    They'd be almost completely useless bloat that overlaps with skink skirmishers. Which isn't surprising since Skinks with Blowpipes where added to replace Skink Archers and provide the Lizardmen with a little thematic faction distinction not actually change the way they play.

    As explained above:

    no, archers can have a specific job complementing with chameleons.
    *Justice and CONFEDERATION for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast!
    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!


  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 5,708

    OdTengri said:

    They'd be almost completely useless bloat that overlaps with skink skirmishers. Which isn't surprising since Skinks with Blowpipes where added to replace Skink Archers and provide the Lizardmen with a little thematic faction distinction not actually change the way they play.

    As explained above:

    no, archers can have a specific job complementing with chameleons.
    I didn't say Chameleons now did I? I said Skirmishers... you know the almost never picked "archer" option currently available to the Lizardmen.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 2,329
    edited April 28
    What would they do? Current blow dart skinks are already insane, some of the best ranged infantries in the game?


    I'm not vehemently against them, but there are FAR bigger priorities imo



    Like a light shock cav in the form of Culchan Riders or a heavy flier. They can exist as fillers maybe. But again there are much more I'd rather have
  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 4,426
    OdTengri said:

    They'd be almost completely useless bloat that overlaps with skink skirmishers. Which isn't surprising since Skinks with Blowpipes where added to replace Skink Archers and provide the Lizardmen with a little thematic faction distinction not actually change the way they play.

    They would not overlap as they'd fulfill different roles. Think of the Night Runners and Gutter Runners who come in two variants: one with shorter range but can fire while moving, and one with longer range but must stay still while firing.
  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 4,426

    What would they do? Current blow dart skinks are already insane, some of the best ranged infantries in the game?


    I'm not vehemently against them, but there are FAR bigger priorities imo



    Like a light shock cav in the form of Culchan Riders or a heavy flier. They can exist as fillers maybe. But again there are much more I'd rather have

    As I said, Skink Archers would have a longer range than current Skink Skirmishers. Still short as far as archers are concerned (like Empire Archers, Ungol Raiders or Goblin Archers), but longer than what's currently available.
  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 10,561
    OdTengri said:

    OdTengri said:

    They'd be almost completely useless bloat that overlaps with skink skirmishers. Which isn't surprising since Skinks with Blowpipes where added to replace Skink Archers and provide the Lizardmen with a little thematic faction distinction not actually change the way they play.

    As explained above:

    no, archers can have a specific job complementing with chameleons.
    I didn't say Chameleons now did I? I said Skirmishers... you know the almost never picked "archer" option currently available to the Lizardmen.
    Chameleons are an upgraded skirmishers, it's literally the same role.

  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,148
    What would make them distinct would be the ‘arcing fire’. It would give the Lizardmen a true, cheap, ‘back line’ skirmisher unit. Currently only Salamander Hunting Packs can do this for the Lizardmen.

    Lizardmen’s other skirmishers have to fight out in front, or sneak in from the sides/rear, but can’t really fall back behind the Saurus and apply their damage.

    Lizardmen back lines currently (if they have any) are usually artillery dinos and Slaan. Not so much Skink Skirmishers/Chameleons. Those are usually harassing ahead of the front line. So Skink Archers would be tactically unique from that perspective.

    I’m NOT opposed to them. I think they could work, even if just as a Skink Skirmisher RoR (kinda like how RoR Dark Riders can fly, or the RoR Rogue Idol being an artillery monster...RoR’s can/have totally changed the tactical role of a unit, not just provide a stat bonus of some kind)

    However, I must diverge with the logic of the OP a little bit. The whole “but they had it on TT, so why wouldn’t it work here?”.... is just not sound reasoning for WHY Skink Archers would be fine (which they would be imo). But the game is not a Tabletop Simulator, especially in the battles specifically. How you use a dragon in-game is totally different from a TT dragon. Same with many spells, there being no such thing as ‘initiative’ or many other elements.

    So what and how a TT unit affected a TT style is NOT a 1:1 correlation for how that unit would affect style and balance within a Total War game. They are different things, and more is needed than it ‘stylistically worked on TT to auto-justify it’s inclusion into Total War.

    For example, TT currently has a rule set where Slaan can teleport units, even monsters, to different areas of the map during the movement phase, as well as a selection where you can bring Stegadons as ‘core’ instead of Saurus.

    ^^By your logic, this would mean that Lizardmen should be allowed to just teleport their Carnosaurs on top of enemy archers/artillery, instead of risking getting shot on the approach, and for MP, Lizardmen can use Stegadons to bypass the single-entity cap on ladder? Cuz why not?? It worked for TT 🙄🙄

    TL;DR: Yes, Skink Archers seem like a fine inclusion for an Oxyotl Lord Pack. But ‘just because they existed on TT’ isn’t the reason why.
  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Registered Users Posts: 1,311
    I'm surprised how many people have forgotten that blowpipes don't have a firing arc. That is the big difference between them and bows.

    Skink archers can sit behind a line of Saurus and still contribute to the fight. Skink skirmishers need to expose themselves and try to get on the flanks before they can do damage.

    That is what makes the two units fill different battlefield roles. The archer has slightly better range and an arc that allows it to sit safely behind a front line while doing damage while the skirmishers have a shorter range and can fire when moving, which allows them to get behind the enemy line and harass their units from behind.

    As someone who enjoys heavy ranged armies I am fully un support of my favorite faction getting another ranged tool to play with.
  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 10,561
    Saying the Skink Archers would have the exact same role as the Chameleons is like saying the Gutter Runners and Gutter Runners Slingers have the same role.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,538
    psychoak said:

    This isn't really an argument.

    What's problematic is peoples expectations.

    You want the old skink archers back? Totally fine. They're a thematic fit, they're historically accurate to the real world civilizations this faction is based on. There's zero problem here.

    They're short bows.

    Like Goblin Archers.

    115 range, 10+1 AP.

    I'm pretty sure most of the people getting excited over this, one way or the other, are expecting something a bit more practical for a line archer. Lizardmen never had a line archer, they had skirmishers. It would be totally fine to put a sustained damage ranged unit out there. Just another short range, low damage skirmisher with poison. It would just have a little more range, and need to face forward to fire. It's still gonna be inferior to Chameleon Skinks by a long, long ways.

    Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I'd expect.

    On the tabletop, blowpipes genuinely made shortbows pretty much redundant. Shortbows had slightly longer range, but blowpipes having multishot was usually more useful. In a TWW context, though, with blowpipes having been redefined as a fire-in-all-directions-while-moving skirmisher with even shorter range than javelins, I think there's space for a Night Goblin Archer-style unit.

    Man I'd be excited.

    I played the tabletop back in 6th edition with Skinks with bows.

    I filled my army with them and I only took one smallish unit of Saurus. It was so fun having my skinks literally running circles around the enemy.

    I could move fast enough and they were Skirmishers so I could keep out of charging movement arcs while peppering my opponent with poisoned arrows.

    The most amusing thing was that my main opponent played Tomb Kings and his Bone Giant could never reach anything to charge because of my skinks. The bows were low strength so I could only wound it if I rolled a 6. But they were poisoned so if I rolled a 6 to hit then it automatically wounded and I wouldn't have to roll again. They were low armor so it normally wouldn't get saved.

    We could never figure out how the bone constructs were so vulnerable to poison.

    Maybe the Lizardmen developed a substance that drained magic out of the constructs or weakened the soul powering them?
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414

    I'm surprised how many people have forgotten that blowpipes don't have a firing arc. That is the big difference between them and bows.

    Skink archers can sit behind a line of Saurus and still contribute to the fight. Skink skirmishers need to expose themselves and try to get on the flanks before they can do damage.

    That is what makes the two units fill different battlefield roles. The archer has slightly better range and an arc that allows it to sit safely behind a front line while doing damage while the skirmishers have a shorter range and can fire when moving, which allows them to get behind the enemy line and harass their units from behind.

    As someone who enjoys heavy ranged armies I am fully un support of my favorite faction getting another ranged tool to play with.

    This isn't actually what prevents them from being a back line unit. The problem is they're so short that it's hard to get a terrain situation where you can fire over your own units. :)

    70 range doesn't leave you much room, and Skinks are vastly shorter than Saurus. If you use Skink Cohorts as the front line, they fire over them just as easily as any other direct fire unit. This is the same kind of logic that makes Thunderers so much better than Handgunners. It's not the stats, it's Dwarfs being so short that most of their opponents can be shot over the top of their heads.

    But in either case, this is a waste of material. As 360 fire skirmishers, their best function is to do that flanking and harassing anyway.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,538
    psychoak said:

    I'm surprised how many people have forgotten that blowpipes don't have a firing arc. That is the big difference between them and bows.

    Skink archers can sit behind a line of Saurus and still contribute to the fight. Skink skirmishers need to expose themselves and try to get on the flanks before they can do damage.

    That is what makes the two units fill different battlefield roles. The archer has slightly better range and an arc that allows it to sit safely behind a front line while doing damage while the skirmishers have a shorter range and can fire when moving, which allows them to get behind the enemy line and harass their units from behind.

    As someone who enjoys heavy ranged armies I am fully un support of my favorite faction getting another ranged tool to play with.

    This isn't actually what prevents them from being a back line unit. The problem is they're so short that it's hard to get a terrain situation where you can fire over your own units. :)

    70 range doesn't leave you much room, and Skinks are vastly shorter than Saurus. If you use Skink Cohorts as the front line, they fire over them just as easily as any other direct fire unit. This is the same kind of logic that makes Thunderers so much better than Handgunners. It's not the stats, it's Dwarfs being so short that most of their opponents can be shot over the top of their heads.

    But in either case, this is a waste of material. As 360 fire skirmishers, their best function is to do that flanking and harassing anyway.
    Except that's missing the point - people proposing skink archers aren't thinking of them as 360 fire skirmishers, but as something more akin to javelineers with longer range and, importantly, more ammunition in exchange for weaker combat stats (including weaker projectiles).
  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Registered Users Posts: 1,311
    psychoak said:



    This isn't actually what prevents them from being a back line unit. The problem is they're so short that it's hard to get a terrain situation where you can fire over your own units. :)

    70 range doesn't leave you much room, and Skinks are vastly shorter than Saurus. If you use Skink Cohorts as the front line, they fire over them just as easily as any other direct fire unit. This is the same kind of logic that makes Thunderers so much better than Handgunners. It's not the stats, it's Dwarfs being so short that most of their opponents can be shot over the top of their heads.

    But in either case, this is a waste of material. As 360 fire skirmishers, their best function is to do that flanking and harassing anyway.

    1. You can't always rely on terrain to let you shoot over people. Plenty of maps are flat or leave you down hill.
    2. Only Tehenhauin is using a skink front line beyond turn 10 or so, so the fact skirmishers can't shoot over Saurus means they can't serve the role of backline shooters.
    3. Who in this thread suggested they'd be 360 radius fire whilst moving shooters?

    I think you're misunderstanding what skink archers are. They're stationary backline skirmishers like goblin archers. Which fill a different battlefield role than skink skirmishers who have mobility but can't reliably shoot over the back line and need to move around the flanks to do damage.
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 3,588
    Yes, Skaven have them all and we still choose sometimes one over the other.
    *Justice and CONFEDERATION for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast!
    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!


  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 4,542
    Draxynnic said:

    psychoak said:

    I'm surprised how many people have forgotten that blowpipes don't have a firing arc. That is the big difference between them and bows.

    Skink archers can sit behind a line of Saurus and still contribute to the fight. Skink skirmishers need to expose themselves and try to get on the flanks before they can do damage.

    That is what makes the two units fill different battlefield roles. The archer has slightly better range and an arc that allows it to sit safely behind a front line while doing damage while the skirmishers have a shorter range and can fire when moving, which allows them to get behind the enemy line and harass their units from behind.

    As someone who enjoys heavy ranged armies I am fully un support of my favorite faction getting another ranged tool to play with.

    This isn't actually what prevents them from being a back line unit. The problem is they're so short that it's hard to get a terrain situation where you can fire over your own units. :)

    70 range doesn't leave you much room, and Skinks are vastly shorter than Saurus. If you use Skink Cohorts as the front line, they fire over them just as easily as any other direct fire unit. This is the same kind of logic that makes Thunderers so much better than Handgunners. It's not the stats, it's Dwarfs being so short that most of their opponents can be shot over the top of their heads.

    But in either case, this is a waste of material. As 360 fire skirmishers, their best function is to do that flanking and harassing anyway.
    Except that's missing the point - people proposing skink archers aren't thinking of them as 360 fire skirmishers, but as something more akin to javelineers with longer range and, importantly, more ammunition in exchange for weaker combat stats (including weaker projectiles).
    This exactly, and I can absolutely see them popping up at some point. I would even go a step further and say that Skink Archers would have some of the lowest straight damage output of any archer unit in the game, probably only like 130 range as well, but have poison arrows. Think slightly more accurate and slightly more capable in melee Pox Peasent Archers, with the trade off being lower range and raw damage per shot.
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