Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Trying to be positive

Hunnny_BunHunnny_Bun Registered Users Posts: 5
I watched, I said "this looks like a mobile game with in app purchases" I saw the comment that this all feels very Dawn of War 3 - I felt a bit sick.

BUT.

I remember the first battle showcasing WH1. It was itself very very rough.

Fliers curled round like airborne prawns - CA fixed it
Orcs jumped a lot - CA fixed it

LOTS of similar issues were dealt with between the video and the release and WH1 was amazing.

These survival battles feel wrong right now because they are not grounded in any strategic gameplay. That is the link CA need to fix. Total War is strategy, and strategy games must reward those turn clicks - not undermine them with odd mechanics.

I see the issues as:

1. Right now there is a new game resource "amazingum" that you "collect" in the Chaos realm

- all feels very - '£2.50 for 100'
- all feels a bit disconnected from the achievements of planning and running an empire for goodness knows how many turns

2. Auto-summon units and roster gate-kept by 'progress in battle'.

- that undermines the progress I made building my empire doesn't it?
- did I even need to build the building on the campaign map? Are they linked?
- where are these troops coming from?

3. Auto improve troops/auto heal/buff

- Again, very pay to win/mobile game
- diminishes strategy if I'm frantically clicking random buttons
- gaming works when it is tied to a narrative I believe. I believe lore of life healing spells - I do not believe a random button for 20% heals

4. Towers

- what just placed out of no-where?
- Justify them, do not make them a gamey feature - a tower placed surely is a tower that can be destroyed




There used to be a poster who had in his sig the idea that fantasy, while seemingly odd, works if it is grounded in internal logic. I think that is what CA need to reconsider. DoW3 was a colossal failure because they tried to do too much and reinvent the wheel.

Please don't do that.

«1

Comments

  • Prince_AlucardPrince_Alucard Registered Users Posts: 468
    I'd bet you 60 dollars that there's not going to be any MTX. lol Especially for a game mode that comes up very rarely. There's like one of these for each god in the campaign from what I recall.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,148

    I'd bet you 60 dollars that there's not going to be any MTX. lol Especially for a game mode that comes up very rarely. There's like one of these for each god in the campaign from what I recall.

    I don't think there will be any actual cash microtransactions either.

    It doesn't change the fact that it currently feels gamey/completely disconnected from your planning/recruitment/empire building/etc.

    Maybe it is connected in a way we can't see yet. But the first impression is that it is a very gamey mode. Like a Starcraft 2 singleplayer mission. Which is fine....in Starcraft 2. But for Total War, it feels out of place atm.
  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Registered Users Posts: 2,462
    I'm with you on this one. If it turns out they've spent the last few years creating a game that's even less grounded and even more micro-intensive than the last one, I'm going to be bitterly disappointed.

    It's early days and there's plenty to be revealed... but whilst they're refusing to reveal any more this is all I have to go on, and it's not a great first impression personally.
  • zeekjwzeekjw Registered Users Posts: 45
    I assumed this was just a quest battle and they were showing off some new gimmicks.

    What makes people assume the whole game will be like this? There's still going to be a campaign...
  • Prince_AlucardPrince_Alucard Registered Users Posts: 468
    Valkaar said:

    I'd bet you 60 dollars that there's not going to be any MTX. lol Especially for a game mode that comes up very rarely. There's like one of these for each god in the campaign from what I recall.

    I don't think there will be any actual cash microtransactions either.

    It doesn't change the fact that it currently feels gamey/completely disconnected from your planning/recruitment/empire building/etc.

    Maybe it is connected in a way we can't see yet. But the first impression is that it is a very gamey mode. Like a Starcraft 2 singleplayer mission. Which is fine....in Starcraft 2. But for Total War, it feels out of place atm.
    Well I agree with that criticism. My criticism is more so I don't think nothing about it really says MTX, rather I think old school RTS mechanics(or really just anything RTS) gets associated with MTX mobile games. Why? Because there's a lot of mtx mobile games that use rts mechanics.


    It's usually a complaint I see from people who aren't into RTS games in the first place, so I'm surprised to see the MTX thing here I suppose. But yeah, is a bit strange to have base builder aspects in a TW game. But it seems like a very specialized game mode, so I don't think it'll really interfere with the usual stuff.


    It's pretty bizarre to start off gameplay with really. It's like if they first gameplay reveal for WH2 was a battle at the great vortex.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,287
    The weapons rolling off an emerging WH symbol is pretty much lifted from DoW3.

    Hhhhm. That is troubling.
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,380
    zeekjw said:

    I assumed this was just a quest battle and they were showing off some new gimmicks.

    What makes people assume the whole game will be like this? There's still going to be a campaign...

    I think the problem come from the lack of context we are given around the battle, a lot of people start assuming things.

    ÇA had to make a post on Reddit to explain those battles are uncommon.
  • zeekjwzeekjw Registered Users Posts: 45
    Cadia101 said:

    zeekjw said:

    I assumed this was just a quest battle and they were showing off some new gimmicks.

    What makes people assume the whole game will be like this? There's still going to be a campaign...

    I think the problem come from the lack of context we are given around the battle, a lot of people start assuming things.

    ÇA had to make a post on Reddit to explain those battles are uncommon.
    This is what I figured. I thought it was pretty obvious this was some kind of special circumstance quest battle, moat likely one of the final ones for kislev
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 3,042
    edited May 14
    This is just a game mode, not the entire game, for Hashut sake, some people really like to exagerate.
  • 1v01v0 Registered Users Posts: 499
    I agree with you. For me the lore part of it is the main problem but I will leave that aside(no need for a wall of text).

    Other than that... Lets speak gameplay.

    They could be cool but yea they feel very gamey, and are like hey we need to make this cooler = and makes this battle just to be cool - enemys have lower hp, kislev uses Portals (uhhhhh lore) to travel to the realms of chaos in this battle. A frost bear appears from a red(fire portal) uhhhhh...

    I don't like them(this kind of battles). The idea is cool, but yea if you pay for a heal for stamina... really... It would be cooler if units die and you recruit new ones (epic cool battle and all that).

    My main hope is that parts of this goes where it makes sense - settlement battles or sieges maybe shrine battles.

    There is nothing special that this is Khorne - it's just a battle with waves. No Fire raining from the sky. The debuffs are for Khorne units !!!!! No rage/rampage. No morale or anykind of debuff because you are in the RoC. Nothing its just a normal battle with waves... RoC got downplayed...

    What I like -
    1. I like the shrines
    2. I like the building
    3. I like the waves

    Things I'm 50/50(neutral) about -
    1.Recruiting units.

    What I don't like -
    1. Heal and stuff...
    2. Weakened enemys(reduced HP)
    3. Lore... Oh my lore...
    4. recruit endgame unit ......... This is my biggest problem with the recruiting for me.
    5. No god specific mechanics to affect mortals - blood rain , rage(rampage) because you are infront of khorne or something else (I can give more examples) !!!
    6. RoC got downplayed...

    To end it I think this will be like the vortex (hope i'm wrong) - Cool at first, and then you need to do it again and again and again. So everyone starts playing ME or not wanting to do it. (I play only ME in WH2)
  • KelefaneKelefane Registered Users Posts: 3,043
    Umm, we have seen a miniscule amount of the content. Reserve judgment until you see it all.

  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,175
    edited May 14
    It is like doing a quest battle, with reinforcements everywhere and in every flank, but with extra steps, I like it.

    and it is just 1 type of gameplay, you still have conventional battles.

    You guys didn't cry about last Lizardmen battles in vortex....where you fight skavens, then High Elves, then Dark Elves, then skavens again, it is the same without towers and defences...
  • RockNRolla92RockNRolla92 Registered Users Posts: 1,935
    Oh no they've tried to improve it and it's different! Must be terrible!

    It's nothing like a mobile game, it's nothing like a MOBA and it's nothing like a damm tower defense.
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,442
    zeekjw said:

    I assumed this was just a quest battle and they were showing off some new gimmicks.

    What makes people assume the whole game will be like this? There's still going to be a campaign...

    I've yet to see anyone assume the whole game will be like it, but I've seen multiple people responding to this unseen impression as if it was the case. None of the posts above yours express a belief that this showcase is what all battles will be like.

    What makes people uneasy is the first-impression, which CA's marketing are certainly thinking about. They chose this to be the first gameplay to publicise because in their minds, this is the BEST gameplay that WH3 will offer. They would not simply choose this because it was close to 'done', because a bad first-impression is worse than no first-impression.

    What did it remind me of? Like a raid encounter in World of Warcraft, which is what some of the worst-designed quest battles already do, except this was a quest battle with extra busywork and no return to the tactical depth of old. It looks like a mobile game in terms of gameplay design.

    I had planned to buy the whole Warhammer trilogy, then quit Total War for good because it's a totally different genre, let alone no longer being the same kind of game. What I've seen in the last 48 hours has me thinking CA are playing a prank and charging money for it, like Blizzard and their out-of-season April Fools.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,442

    It is like doing a quest battle, with reinforcements everywhere and in every flank, but with extra steps, I like it.

    and it is just 1 type of gameplay, you still have conventional battles.

    You guys didn't cry about last Lizardmen battles in vortex....where you fight skavens, then High Elves, then Dark Elves, then skavens again, it is the same without towers and defences...

    Yes we did. Lots of people did. Then got discouraged from doing so by brigades of people angry that anyone criticised anything CA has ever done.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 12,659
    1v0 said:

    I agree with you. For me the lore part of it is the main problem but I will leave that aside(no need for a wall of text).

    Other than that... Lets speak gameplay.

    They could be cool but yea they feel very gamey, and are like hey we need to make this cooler = and makes this battle just to be cool - enemys have lower hp, kislev uses Portals (uhhhhh lore) to travel to the realms of chaos in this battle. A frost bear appears from a red(fire portal) uhhhhh...

    I don't like them(this kind of battles). The idea is cool, but yea if you pay for a heal for stamina... really... It would be cooler if units die and you recruit new ones (epic cool battle and all that).

    My main hope is that parts of this goes where it makes sense - settlement battles or sieges maybe shrine battles.

    There is nothing special that this is Khorne - it's just a battle with waves. No Fire raining from the sky. The debuffs are for Khorne units !!!!! No rage/rampage. No morale or anykind of debuff because you are in the RoC. Nothing its just a normal battle with waves... RoC got downplayed...

    What I like -
    1. I like the shrines
    2. I like the building
    3. I like the waves

    Things I'm 50/50(neutral) about -
    1.Recruiting units.

    What I don't like -
    1. Heal and stuff...
    2. Weakened enemys(reduced HP)
    3. Lore... Oh my lore...
    4. recruit endgame unit ......... This is my biggest problem with the recruiting for me.
    5. No god specific mechanics to affect mortals - blood rain , rage(rampage) because you are infront of khorne or something else (I can give more examples) !!!
    6. RoC got downplayed...

    To end it I think this will be like the vortex (hope i'm wrong) - Cool at first, and then you need to do it again and again and again. So everyone starts playing ME or not wanting to do it. (I play only ME in WH2)

    i mean its the final goal any way
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Prince_AlucardPrince_Alucard Registered Users Posts: 468
    edited May 14
    I definitely think it's the vortex of game 3. It's why I don't really think it's sweating much over. I probably won't even encounter these missions at all going of vortex, maybe I will depending on how long it takes ME to come out for game 3.


    That specifically is why I mention it being a vortex-esque quest is that it's likely something most people won't even reach anyway. In fact, I think the first gameplay drop should've been more traditional, or the new minor settlements as to not scare some people away with a more radical game mode that you won't encounter.


    It's also why sieges are the biggest issue for me is because you encounter them so often of course.
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,175

    It is like doing a quest battle, with reinforcements everywhere and in every flank, but with extra steps, I like it.

    and it is just 1 type of gameplay, you still have conventional battles.

    You guys didn't cry about last Lizardmen battles in vortex....where you fight skavens, then High Elves, then Dark Elves, then skavens again, it is the same without towers and defences...

    Yes we did. Lots of people did. Then got discouraged from doing so by brigades of people angry that anyone criticised anything CA has ever done.
    Yeah, there are always whiners in every videogame's community.

    If you still whine, go and play multiplayer battles, where you can have a lot of "strategy" and micromanagement. Let us enjoy the game in single player with all these new ideas. We don't care if Survival Battles have less strategy quota, this total war game is more 'Warhammer' than 'Total War' in the first place.
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,442

    It is like doing a quest battle, with reinforcements everywhere and in every flank, but with extra steps, I like it.

    and it is just 1 type of gameplay, you still have conventional battles.

    You guys didn't cry about last Lizardmen battles in vortex....where you fight skavens, then High Elves, then Dark Elves, then skavens again, it is the same without towers and defences...

    Yes we did. Lots of people did. Then got discouraged from doing so by brigades of people angry that anyone criticised anything CA has ever done.
    Yeah, there are always whiners in every videogame's community.

    If you still whine, go and play multiplayer battles, where you can have a lot of "strategy" and micromanagement. Let us enjoy the game in single player with all these new ideas. We don't care if Survival Battles have less strategy quota, this total war game is more 'Warhammer' than 'Total War' in the first place.
    Show me a multiplayer battle with 'strategy', assuming you actually mean 'tactics', which so many people(including CA) now confuse with micro-management. They all descend into a mess of unit match-ups, cheap nukes and cheap stat modifiers, with nothing interesting going on.

    This is neither Total War nor Warhammer. Things that actually make sense and add depth in the tabletop game actually take ages for CA to realise they should have implemented, whilst all they crank out are gimmicks and design shortcuts. It took them almost three years after adding Wood Elves to realise trees blocking missiles clashed with their 'in forest' bonuses, or they had three years to think of a solution and what did they end up doing? Made it so missiles clip-through trees at the start of flight, because what Total War needs is more dumbing-down and rule-based design taking out.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 26,588
    Seems like you're criticizing the sizzle but not the steak.

    This strikes me as a quest battle type deal. Certainly an involved one, but not the actual meat of the gameplay.
    Hyped for TWW3.

    CA! Cathay has the most potential of any race in TWW by far. More A+ material to design a race from than any other. You can make Cathay the best race in TWW history. I bolieve in you!
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 4,732
    I think that the survival battles might be fun, especially in coop.
    However if they are only avalable for Kislev in Cathay in the campaign then what Chaos races are going to get?
  • YitterbumYitterbum Registered Users Posts: 380
    Looks like something that would be fun with coop as a survival map. I don't really care to see it in single player campaigns though. By the time your army is assaulting Khorne's citadel, you will already have a doomstack which defeats the purpose of all the new abilities and structures brought in and trivializes the battle.

    I would prefer it if the barricades and towers were on the opposite side for the defenders set up prior to the battle starting. Make it feel like you are assaulting a fortress rather than building a fortress in the enemy's base. Then give the invading army the ability to bring in new units as they take certain layers of the enemy base.
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,175

    It is like doing a quest battle, with reinforcements everywhere and in every flank, but with extra steps, I like it.

    and it is just 1 type of gameplay, you still have conventional battles.

    You guys didn't cry about last Lizardmen battles in vortex....where you fight skavens, then High Elves, then Dark Elves, then skavens again, it is the same without towers and defences...

    Yes we did. Lots of people did. Then got discouraged from doing so by brigades of people angry that anyone criticised anything CA has ever done.
    Yeah, there are always whiners in every videogame's community.

    If you still whine, go and play multiplayer battles, where you can have a lot of "strategy" and micromanagement. Let us enjoy the game in single player with all these new ideas. We don't care if Survival Battles have less strategy quota, this total war game is more 'Warhammer' than 'Total War' in the first place.
    Show me a multiplayer battle with 'strategy', assuming you actually mean 'tactics', which so many people(including CA) now confuse with micro-management. They all descend into a mess of unit match-ups, cheap nukes and cheap stat modifiers, with nothing interesting going on.

    This is neither Total War nor Warhammer. Things that actually make sense and add depth in the tabletop game actually take ages for CA to realise they should have implemented, whilst all they crank out are gimmicks and design shortcuts. It took them almost three years after adding Wood Elves to realise trees blocking missiles clashed with their 'in forest' bonuses, or they had three years to think of a solution and what did they end up doing? Made it so missiles clip-through trees at the start of flight, because what Total War needs is more dumbing-down and rule-based design taking out.
    WHat do you want dude?, Do you want to roll the dices too?.....This is a videogame, not a table top simulator...
  • Prince_AlucardPrince_Alucard Registered Users Posts: 468
    Yitterbum said:

    Looks like something that would be fun with coop as a survival map. I don't really care to see it in single player campaigns though. By the time your army is assaulting Khorne's citadel, you will already have a doomstack which defeats the purpose of all the new abilities and structures brought in and trivializes the battle.

    I would prefer it if the barricades and towers were on the opposite side for the defenders set up prior to the battle starting. Make it feel like you are assaulting a fortress rather than building a fortress in the enemy's base. Then give the invading army the ability to bring in new units as they take certain layers of the enemy base.

    I definitely agree, I see it pretty fun for co op. But in campaign, where it's going to be late game it seems, it seems like you'll already have a very strong army by that point. Certainly stronger than the one in the demo.
    SerPus said:

    I think that the survival battles might be fun, especially in coop.
    However if they are only avalable for Kislev in Cathay in the campaign then what Chaos races are going to get?

    I still think chaos may have an actual chaos realm map, but I doubt that same map is accessible to Kislev/Cathay now. Seems more like a vortex situation where you are teleported there, that's what I've gathered from the youtubers asking the devs anyway.
  • aMint1aMint1 Registered Users Posts: 821

    zeekjw said:

    I assumed this was just a quest battle and they were showing off some new gimmicks.

    What makes people assume the whole game will be like this? There's still going to be a campaign...

    I've yet to see anyone assume the whole game will be like it, but I've seen multiple people responding to this unseen impression as if it was the case. None of the posts above yours express a belief that this showcase is what all battles will be like.

    What makes people uneasy is the first-impression, which CA's marketing are certainly thinking about. They chose this to be the first gameplay to publicise because in their minds, this is the BEST gameplay that WH3 will offer. They would not simply choose this because it was close to 'done', because a bad first-impression is worse than no first-impression.

    What did it remind me of? Like a raid encounter in World of Warcraft, which is what some of the worst-designed quest battles already do, except this was a quest battle with extra busywork and no return to the tactical depth of old. It looks like a mobile game in terms of gameplay design.

    I had planned to buy the whole Warhammer trilogy, then quit Total War for good because it's a totally different genre, let alone no longer being the same kind of game. What I've seen in the last 48 hours has me thinking CA are playing a prank and charging money for it, like Blizzard and their out-of-season April Fools.

    On the other hand, this battle and what we've seen so far looks great. Hope we catch you around next time there's a big release for the series you don't play.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 4,857
    See a bunch commenting about DoW3 but it's almost like none of them actually played it. Watching the gameplay I can already tell you its not. More like people are just trending on the bandwagon of it.

    Would also like to see you guys post the mobile games I can do most of that on with that graphics or unit stats. Exaggerations applenting.

    For some thing they said was a specific type of battle in the actual video but it's like nobody listened and everyone fixated on things that basically existed in some function in prior games.

    Though kinda reminds me during some of the reveals for Warhammer 2. Didn't that age poorly from those nay sayers.
  • DumbledoodDumbledood Registered Users Posts: 182
    Keep in mind this is probably a rare battle mode, in fact, I figured that from the beginning but Grace confirmed it.
  • oliverpmasonoliverpmason Registered Users Posts: 1,397
    edited May 14
    I hate the look of these battles. You can instantly build a tower in the Realm of Chaos while assaulting the Brass Citadel? You build a wall in seconds that can hold back Demons? It's so gamey and ridiculous.

    Also to complete the Vortex 2.0 campaign I have to do 4 of these which are probably always the same for each god. First as Kislev, then as Cathay, then as Kislev 2nd lord, then do 3 of them as Nurgle, then 3 of them as Khorne, then 4 of them as Cathay's 2nd lord, then 4 as Kislev....... always the same 4 battles.

    It's ****.

    However if it's only in Vortex 2.0 then that's okay. Hopefully Mortal Empires 2.0 won't have this like the Vortex mechanic in game 2.

    Maybe it will attract people who like that campaign and improve sales. Possibly get more people on multiplayer. This could increase the games longevity and mean that we get more content. Rubbish mobile/tower defense games obviously sell.

    Also we are allowed to complain about the information we have if it looks **** imho.

    In conclusion the Horned Rat gave us modders for a reason. All hail the Horned Rat.
  • AstroCatAstroCat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 404
    Yeah, this is such a miserable direction for TW to go in. I've been playing since the original Shogun but this is just bad. Imagine the resources wasted on such a tedious nonsensical mode. I so wanted an epic imaginative immersive Mortal Empire campaign and instead I get some awful made for mobile phones tower defense boredom generator.
    Home/Gaming PC: : [email protected]/Asus ROG Maximus XI Hero/EVGA RTX 2080 Ti XC Ultra/ (2x8GB)/Corsair Carbide Quiet 600Q/Corsair RM750i/LG 32GK850G 31.5"/BenQ G2400W 24"/Sound Blaster ZX/Samsung 850 Pro/950 Pro/970 EVO/Saitek X52 Pro/TrackIR5 - TrackClip Pro/Win10 Pro 64bit
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,205
    If you remain positive you increase chances of being disappointed..
Sign In or Register to comment.