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Who is Kostaltyn?

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  • 55JoNNo55JoNNo Registered Users Posts: 2,357
    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    One of those ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’ things? The general idea is fairly sound as part of his reconstruction efforts and is not too dissimilar practices in other nations (which have fairly centralised and codified churches, albeit the gods are generally separate rather than confederated)

    If he set it up fairly early on in his reign as part of his efforts to strengthen Kislevite religion (which has been in his lore since at least 6th) it would have largely been before Kattarin was born and certainly before he knew she would be such a powerful Ice Witch (he became ‘the first High Priest of Ursun in over 400 years’ when she was an infant).

    One Kattarin was older and it became more apparent the new construct would be a problem for her it was probably too late to revert it without a major schism.
    Except it would already have been a problem for him because he literally became the High Priest of Ursun by the very same "old way" as any other one. He is a member of the old order, he is literally part of the same line as Katarin is, the entire thing reads as him founding a religion that literally opposes his own line of succession and tradition.
    There is such a thing as biding your time you know? Factions at court is as old as time. He may have always been more hardline, but kept in check by Boris. With Boris gone, he is free to remould the organisation to match his growing fervor.
    Yeah, but the entire thing is literally founded by Boris. They literally woudn't exist and sprang up from literally no former foundations. He built the thing from the ground up and you're telling me it went bat **** insane within a single generation, to the point that it stands effectively in opposition to his most basic principles?

    Let me remind you, he fundamentally built it from nothing. Even the supposed "old ways" are apparently not connected to this organization. That makes no bloody sense, if Boris literally IS part of that old way of things and his line inherently IS part of that. It makes no damn sense that he just built it like that.

    And then apparently the entire organization either went mad with power despite literally not existing until recently in any form, while also being built from ground up by a member of the old way(which now goes against what he represents), or one dude simply seized power from an organization founded by a dude that has a clear line of succession, and the entire thing went with it?
    I can see a scenario where Boris built this with Kostaltyn, who was the popular face with the people. They both agreed that these undesirable elements had to be removed from regular worship, but had a difference on opinion on how this should be achieved. Kostaltyn would see them labelled as heretics, as well as all magic users, but Boris hauled him into line - perfectly understanding that this questioned the legitimacy of his daughter and other Ice Witches.. .as well as risking causing a new schism just as he had united Kislev under one regime and church.

    Kostaltyn was kept in check by Boris, but with Boris out of the picture he is free to resume his hardline stance on magic.

    I don't see what is so crazy about a scenario like that... once Kostaltyn heard that Boris was lost. It doesn't sound like there is an actual war of such as yet, but just a changing tide of fervor. In real world Russia the Church was a powerful check and almost opponent of the Tzars at times.

    Bohemond for game 3 please!

  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 1,450
    he is just a really bad invented name
    BsFG dwarf
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,871
    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    One of those ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’ things? The general idea is fairly sound as part of his reconstruction efforts and is not too dissimilar practices in other nations (which have fairly centralised and codified churches, albeit the gods are generally separate rather than confederated)

    If he set it up fairly early on in his reign as part of his efforts to strengthen Kislevite religion (which has been in his lore since at least 6th) it would have largely been before Kattarin was born and certainly before he knew she would be such a powerful Ice Witch (he became ‘the first High Priest of Ursun in over 400 years’ when she was an infant).

    One Kattarin was older and it became more apparent the new construct would be a problem for her it was probably too late to revert it without a major schism.
    Except it would already have been a problem for him because he literally became the High Priest of Ursun by the very same "old way" as any other one. He is a member of the old order, he is literally part of the same line as Katarin is, the entire thing reads as him founding a religion that literally opposes his own line of succession and tradition.
    There is such a thing as biding your time you know? Factions at court is as old as time. He may have always been more hardline, but kept in check by Boris. With Boris gone, he is free to remould the organisation to match his growing fervor.
    Yeah, but the entire thing is literally founded by Boris. They literally woudn't exist and sprang up from literally no former foundations. He built the thing from the ground up and you're telling me it went bat **** insane within a single generation, to the point that it stands effectively in opposition to his most basic principles?

    Let me remind you, he fundamentally built it from nothing. Even the supposed "old ways" are apparently not connected to this organization. That makes no bloody sense, if Boris literally IS part of that old way of things and his line inherently IS part of that. It makes no damn sense that he just built it like that.

    And then apparently the entire organization either went mad with power despite literally not existing until recently in any form, while also being built from ground up by a member of the old way(which now goes against what he represents), or one dude simply seized power from an organization founded by a dude that has a clear line of succession, and the entire thing went with it?
    I can see a scenario where Boris built this with Kostaltyn, who was the popular face with the people. They both agreed that these undesirable elements had to be removed from regular worship, but had a difference on opinion on how this should be achieved. Kostaltyn would see them labelled as heretics, as well as all magic users, but Boris hauled him into line - perfectly understanding that this questioned the legitimacy of his daughter and other Ice Witches.. .as well as risking causing a new schism just as he had united Kislev under one regime and church.

    Kostaltyn was kept in check by Boris, but with Boris out of the picture he is free to resume his hardline stance on magic.

    I don't see what is so crazy about a scenario like that... once Kostaltyn heard that Boris was lost. It doesn't sound like there is an actual war of such as yet, but just a changing tide of fervor. In real world Russia the Church was a powerful check and almost opponent of the Tzars at times.
    No, they didn't "work together" Boris built this along, as the literal HEAD PRIEST of Ursun. He is literally the founder and the highest religious authority within Kislev. On top of being the TZAR OF KISLEV.

    The entire idea is bonkers. I don't care for your headcanon, it makes no bloody sense that the man literally in charge of the nation AND of the entire religion, suddenly went against his own dynasty.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian The Crystal LabyrinthRegistered Users Posts: 5,487

    he is just a really bad invented name

    Call him Rasputin than. I do.
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,230
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    I see someone hasn't played Crusader Kings...

    "Whoa I can't believe how amazing both my sons are - truly worthy heirs to my empire!"

    One Death later

    "God-damn my brother is a bloody nuisance; can he not die already?!? STOP MAKING FACTIONS!!!!"
    Except that the dude that founded the entire thing is literally part of the supposed hereditary line going back to the Khan Queens.

    A newly minted organization suddenly becoming powerful and going up against a long established order, when they literally sprang up from that order, makes no bloody sense.
    Well in England we actually have a very strong precedent for this..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

    Later Catholic Monarchs of England would battle the Church which their own line created. At least Boris had a good reason - henry just needed a divorce!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_I_of_England

    "She is best known for her vigorous attempt to reverse the English Reformation, which had begun during the reign of her father, Henry VIII. Her attempt to restore to the church the property confiscated in the previous two reigns was largely thwarted by parliament, but during her five-year reign, Mary had over 280 religious dissenters burned at the stake in the Marian persecutions."
    The only issue being that Boris is quite literally the one who created the entire thing from what are supposed to be disorganized, traditionalist, weakened factions, into something that is apparently in opposition with his own line of succession's most fundamental principles.

    How exactly does someone have so little hindsight?
    Well I think Henry 8ths tale is if anything less believable with hindsight - he bankrupted the country, caused hundreds of years of civil strife and significantly reduced the power of the monarchy. He created a new powerful faction within his own nation with political clout enough to oppose him and his ancestors.

    It's an interest parallel between fact and fiction and personally I like it. Feels like classic Warhammer.
    Boris is not some dude. He is depicted as having effectively reconstructed Kislev from ground up and brought it back from the bring.

    That some organization apparently now directly opposes his literal line of succession, when that line quite literally created it, and effectively resurrected the nation, with the organization being developed from literally nothing, makes no bloody sense even with this supposed historical comparison.

    The entire Orthodoxy, owing its existence to Boris, with Boris literally being their HEAD PRIEST FOR A TIME... is insane. He literally dictates the damn creed.
    And Henry was head of the church of England for a time - indeed he even started the 'divinity' of the crown - to suggest the Monarchs were chosen by God.

    Besides they don't oppose the Tzarina because of her bloodline - by the sounds of it it is more along political axis. The Tzarina supports and promotes the old ways; plus magic is always suspect. However by right of her blood she is not directly opposed.

    Would be weirder if the fanatical preacher was a loyalist to be honest. Also for all we know this guy came along after Boris disappeared (or during a similar time frame) and has since changed things.
  • 55JoNNo55JoNNo Registered Users Posts: 2,357
    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    One of those ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’ things? The general idea is fairly sound as part of his reconstruction efforts and is not too dissimilar practices in other nations (which have fairly centralised and codified churches, albeit the gods are generally separate rather than confederated)

    If he set it up fairly early on in his reign as part of his efforts to strengthen Kislevite religion (which has been in his lore since at least 6th) it would have largely been before Kattarin was born and certainly before he knew she would be such a powerful Ice Witch (he became ‘the first High Priest of Ursun in over 400 years’ when she was an infant).

    One Kattarin was older and it became more apparent the new construct would be a problem for her it was probably too late to revert it without a major schism.
    Except it would already have been a problem for him because he literally became the High Priest of Ursun by the very same "old way" as any other one. He is a member of the old order, he is literally part of the same line as Katarin is, the entire thing reads as him founding a religion that literally opposes his own line of succession and tradition.
    There is such a thing as biding your time you know? Factions at court is as old as time. He may have always been more hardline, but kept in check by Boris. With Boris gone, he is free to remould the organisation to match his growing fervor.
    Yeah, but the entire thing is literally founded by Boris. They literally woudn't exist and sprang up from literally no former foundations. He built the thing from the ground up and you're telling me it went bat **** insane within a single generation, to the point that it stands effectively in opposition to his most basic principles?

    Let me remind you, he fundamentally built it from nothing. Even the supposed "old ways" are apparently not connected to this organization. That makes no bloody sense, if Boris literally IS part of that old way of things and his line inherently IS part of that. It makes no damn sense that he just built it like that.

    And then apparently the entire organization either went mad with power despite literally not existing until recently in any form, while also being built from ground up by a member of the old way(which now goes against what he represents), or one dude simply seized power from an organization founded by a dude that has a clear line of succession, and the entire thing went with it?
    I can see a scenario where Boris built this with Kostaltyn, who was the popular face with the people. They both agreed that these undesirable elements had to be removed from regular worship, but had a difference on opinion on how this should be achieved. Kostaltyn would see them labelled as heretics, as well as all magic users, but Boris hauled him into line - perfectly understanding that this questioned the legitimacy of his daughter and other Ice Witches.. .as well as risking causing a new schism just as he had united Kislev under one regime and church.

    Kostaltyn was kept in check by Boris, but with Boris out of the picture he is free to resume his hardline stance on magic.

    I don't see what is so crazy about a scenario like that... once Kostaltyn heard that Boris was lost. It doesn't sound like there is an actual war of such as yet, but just a changing tide of fervor. In real world Russia the Church was a powerful check and almost opponent of the Tzars at times.
    No, they didn't "work together" Boris built this along, as the literal HEAD PRIEST of Ursun. He is literally the founder and the highest religious authority within Kislev. On top of being the TZAR OF KISLEV.

    The entire idea is bonkers. I don't care for your headcanon, it makes no bloody sense that the man literally in charge of the nation AND of the entire religion, suddenly went against his own dynasty.
    Well there's no need to be rude. It really isn't that bonkers, but for whatever reason you feel very strongly about it. Boris is not around at this time.. he is not the same man as Kostaltyn.

    Bohemond for game 3 please!

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,264
    Hmmm.. thinking about it we’ve had nothing all week and now on the Friday we get a bit of background info with 0 context on how he plays or mechanics.

    1/10
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,230
    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    One of those ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’ things? The general idea is fairly sound as part of his reconstruction efforts and is not too dissimilar practices in other nations (which have fairly centralised and codified churches, albeit the gods are generally separate rather than confederated)

    If he set it up fairly early on in his reign as part of his efforts to strengthen Kislevite religion (which has been in his lore since at least 6th) it would have largely been before Kattarin was born and certainly before he knew she would be such a powerful Ice Witch (he became ‘the first High Priest of Ursun in over 400 years’ when she was an infant).

    One Kattarin was older and it became more apparent the new construct would be a problem for her it was probably too late to revert it without a major schism.
    Except it would already have been a problem for him because he literally became the High Priest of Ursun by the very same "old way" as any other one. He is a member of the old order, he is literally part of the same line as Katarin is, the entire thing reads as him founding a religion that literally opposes his own line of succession and tradition.
    There is such a thing as biding your time you know? Factions at court is as old as time. He may have always been more hardline, but kept in check by Boris. With Boris gone, he is free to remould the organisation to match his growing fervor.
    Yeah, but the entire thing is literally founded by Boris. They literally woudn't exist and sprang up from literally no former foundations. He built the thing from the ground up and you're telling me it went bat **** insane within a single generation, to the point that it stands effectively in opposition to his most basic principles?

    Let me remind you, he fundamentally built it from nothing. Even the supposed "old ways" are apparently not connected to this organization. That makes no bloody sense, if Boris literally IS part of that old way of things and his line inherently IS part of that. It makes no damn sense that he just built it like that.

    And then apparently the entire organization either went mad with power despite literally not existing until recently in any form, while also being built from ground up by a member of the old way(which now goes against what he represents), or one dude simply seized power from an organization founded by a dude that has a clear line of succession, and the entire thing went with it?
    I can see a scenario where Boris built this with Kostaltyn, who was the popular face with the people. They both agreed that these undesirable elements had to be removed from regular worship, but had a difference on opinion on how this should be achieved. Kostaltyn would see them labelled as heretics, as well as all magic users, but Boris hauled him into line - perfectly understanding that this questioned the legitimacy of his daughter and other Ice Witches.. .as well as risking causing a new schism just as he had united Kislev under one regime and church.

    Kostaltyn was kept in check by Boris, but with Boris out of the picture he is free to resume his hardline stance on magic.

    I don't see what is so crazy about a scenario like that... once Kostaltyn heard that Boris was lost. It doesn't sound like there is an actual war of such as yet, but just a changing tide of fervor. In real world Russia the Church was a powerful check and almost opponent of the Tzars at times.
    No, they didn't "work together" Boris built this along, as the literal HEAD PRIEST of Ursun. He is literally the founder and the highest religious authority within Kislev. On top of being the TZAR OF KISLEV.

    The entire idea is bonkers. I don't care for your headcanon, it makes no bloody sense that the man literally in charge of the nation AND of the entire religion, suddenly went against his own dynasty.
    It's your head canon to suggest he did - all we know is Kostaltyn does. This could literally have just happened as Boris disappeared/
  • ConradToskanConradToskan Registered Users Posts: 343


    Reminds me a bit of the High Sparrow from GoT. He also turned on the people, who got him into power. Mostly because those in power needed a man of great charisma to further their goals and didn't fully understand the ideology behind the man.

    Also if I learned one thing from playing Crusader Kings, the first few years after a new king is crowned are rough and many people who loved the deceased king are very critical of the new one.

    If Katrin is on an expedition somewhere and absent to the throne, this would enhance this strive greatly and may explain why the Patriarch is so critical of her.

    As the Orthodoxy is a relativly new organisation and not on a solid political footing, the followers of the old faith try to validate themselves as loyalists by flocking to Katrin's banner as she is (for now verbally) attack by the Orthodoxy's leadership.

    If this is fleshed out in the right way, it makes a lot of sense.

    Either way it allows the following: The player can initate a Kislevite civil war or unifiy Kislev, with the Patriarch realizing the Katrin is a good ruler.
  • darkgaia01darkgaia01 Registered Users Posts: 459
    looks like that LL no one will play much
  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 1,450
    edited May 2021

    he is just a really bad invented name

    Call him Rasputin than. I do.
    i know that thats what GW was aiming for creating this abomination, but it irks me how badly it sounds and how forced it is compared to names of other important Kislevites
    BsFG dwarf
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,230

    looks like that LL no one will play much

    Perhaps.... but he makes a good antagonist for Katarin.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 8,250
    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    The organization may have been very different when Boris was in charge, Kostaltyn is the one that has a problem with her, because he is a fanatic.
    "By the fires of Hashut, let them burn in the flames of eternal torment!"
    - Anonymous
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,871

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    I see someone hasn't played Crusader Kings...

    "Whoa I can't believe how amazing both my sons are - truly worthy heirs to my empire!"

    One Death later

    "God-damn my brother is a bloody nuisance; can he not die already?!? STOP MAKING FACTIONS!!!!"
    Except that the dude that founded the entire thing is literally part of the supposed hereditary line going back to the Khan Queens.

    A newly minted organization suddenly becoming powerful and going up against a long established order, when they literally sprang up from that order, makes no bloody sense.
    Well in England we actually have a very strong precedent for this..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

    Later Catholic Monarchs of England would battle the Church which their own line created. At least Boris had a good reason - henry just needed a divorce!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_I_of_England

    "She is best known for her vigorous attempt to reverse the English Reformation, which had begun during the reign of her father, Henry VIII. Her attempt to restore to the church the property confiscated in the previous two reigns was largely thwarted by parliament, but during her five-year reign, Mary had over 280 religious dissenters burned at the stake in the Marian persecutions."
    The only issue being that Boris is quite literally the one who created the entire thing from what are supposed to be disorganized, traditionalist, weakened factions, into something that is apparently in opposition with his own line of succession's most fundamental principles.

    How exactly does someone have so little hindsight?
    Well I think Henry 8ths tale is if anything less believable with hindsight - he bankrupted the country, caused hundreds of years of civil strife and significantly reduced the power of the monarchy. He created a new powerful faction within his own nation with political clout enough to oppose him and his ancestors.

    It's an interest parallel between fact and fiction and personally I like it. Feels like classic Warhammer.
    Boris is not some dude. He is depicted as having effectively reconstructed Kislev from ground up and brought it back from the bring.

    That some organization apparently now directly opposes his literal line of succession, when that line quite literally created it, and effectively resurrected the nation, with the organization being developed from literally nothing, makes no bloody sense even with this supposed historical comparison.

    The entire Orthodoxy, owing its existence to Boris, with Boris literally being their HEAD PRIEST FOR A TIME... is insane. He literally dictates the damn creed.
    And Henry was head of the church of England for a time - indeed he even started the 'divinity' of the crown - to suggest the Monarchs were chosen by God.

    Besides they don't oppose the Tzarina because of her bloodline - by the sounds of it it is more along political axis. The Tzarina supports and promotes the old ways; plus magic is always suspect. However by right of her blood she is not directly opposed.

    Would be weirder if the fanatical preacher was a loyalist to be honest. Also for all we know this guy came along after Boris disappeared (or during a similar time frame) and has since changed things.
    That's what makes the thing even more ridiculous. They oppose her because of her MAGIC, when Ice magic is LITERALLY the thing that Kislevites see as THEIR ANCESTRAL LEGACY. And the founder of it is literally the member of the main dynasty that is known for its MAGIC USERS.

    Magic is not some ridiculous taboo like it is in the Empire. The Empire actually has a damn good reason why they dislike magic. They don't have a standardized magic school until mere 200 years ago, before that, their main teachings came from the Dwarfs who literally don't use magic. The Empire has a long standing suspision of magic, but Kislevites are LITERALLY founded by a god damn Magic wielder.

    It is utterly senseless that he opposes MAGIC when that is literally from whence Kislev DERIVES its one core strength.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,230

    he is just a really bad invented name

    Call him Rasputin than. I do.
    i know that thats what CA was aiming for creating this abomination, but it irks me how badly it sounds and how forced it is compared to names of other important Kislevites
    GW made him. CA just fleshed it out. The name was 100% GW's doing...
  • Lord_ZarkovLord_Zarkov Registered Users Posts: 1,329
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    One of those ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’ things? The general idea is fairly sound as part of his reconstruction efforts and is not too dissimilar practices in other nations (which have fairly centralised and codified churches, albeit the gods are generally separate rather than confederated)

    If he set it up fairly early on in his reign as part of his efforts to strengthen Kislevite religion (which has been in his lore since at least 6th) it would have largely been before Kattarin was born and certainly before he knew she would be such a powerful Ice Witch (he became ‘the first High Priest of Ursun in over 400 years’ when she was an infant).

    One Kattarin was older and it became more apparent the new construct would be a problem for her it was probably too late to revert it without a major schism.
    Except it would already have been a problem for him because he literally became the High Priest of Ursun by the very same "old way" as any other one. He is a member of the old order, he is literally part of the same line as Katarin is, the entire thing reads as him founding a religion that literally opposes his own line of succession and tradition.
    In the 6th Ed book he is specifically noted as having reorganised and reinvigorated the Cult of Ursun which had been flagging for a while (note the no High Priest in 400 years thing), making it into a much more centralised cult (like in other nations). ‘Revived’ is the term used in his blurb.

    The way he became High Priest would presumably the way he codified into the new structures he was setting up, so it very much would not have been opposed to *him*.

    While the 6th Ed book only notes his intent to reduce the influence of southern gods, clamping down on some of the more shamanistic type stuff does make sense for much the same reasons the Empire does the same, especially as the 6th Ed book also notes in the section on Kislev Religion ‘the Kurgan influence is still strong in the north and the horse tribes share many customs with the likes of the Dolgans, Khazags and other marauder tribes’.

    When some of your populace share religious customs with your literal evil-worshiping enemies then a bit of enforced centralisation and standardisation maybe doesn’t sound so bad?

    In order to impose a new order he would have had to apply quite a bit of pressure and empower those strongly behind his cause. This would have bred fanaticism, as these things are wont to do, which it seems has got rather out of hand and caught the Ice Witch/Ancient Widow in its net which was likely not the original intent - but such is often the risk of empowering fanatics. Add to this the male priests vs female witches dynamic from RotIQ in 2nd Ed WFRP and the whole things makes rather a lot of sense.

    As others have noted the useful comparison is the rise of hardline Protestantism in England following Henry VIII’s break from Rome and the major issues it caused his Catholic daughter Mary, well beyond his original intent of ‘basically the same but I’m in charge now’.


  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,438
    So Kostaltyn see the queen as heretic? no exceptions are made for ruler magic user? that's odd. I mean look at exception that Malekith got for himself, as only dark elf male magic user.
  • nordoMnordoM Registered Users Posts: 103
    Pretty weak considering we got nearly nothing all week.
    A piece of bite sized lore that, without all the embellishment, can be summarized in a few sentences.
    Nothing actually game related like skills, abilities or stats.

    Hopefully this is not how slow the rollout for each LL is gonna be from now on...
    Day 1: Just a picture of the LL
    One week later: Lore post about the LL.
    Another week later: Actual ingame info about the LL.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • HeresyHoundHeresyHound Registered Users Posts: 8,153
    I think the lesson here is that yes this is a rewritten Kislev with brand new lore and characters. Clinging to outdated lore from an old rpg supplement will lead to nothing but anger because large swathes of that is likely retconned because it doesn't fit with their new vision of Kislev.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,871

    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    One of those ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’ things? The general idea is fairly sound as part of his reconstruction efforts and is not too dissimilar practices in other nations (which have fairly centralised and codified churches, albeit the gods are generally separate rather than confederated)

    If he set it up fairly early on in his reign as part of his efforts to strengthen Kislevite religion (which has been in his lore since at least 6th) it would have largely been before Kattarin was born and certainly before he knew she would be such a powerful Ice Witch (he became ‘the first High Priest of Ursun in over 400 years’ when she was an infant).

    One Kattarin was older and it became more apparent the new construct would be a problem for her it was probably too late to revert it without a major schism.
    Except it would already have been a problem for him because he literally became the High Priest of Ursun by the very same "old way" as any other one. He is a member of the old order, he is literally part of the same line as Katarin is, the entire thing reads as him founding a religion that literally opposes his own line of succession and tradition.
    There is such a thing as biding your time you know? Factions at court is as old as time. He may have always been more hardline, but kept in check by Boris. With Boris gone, he is free to remould the organisation to match his growing fervor.
    Yeah, but the entire thing is literally founded by Boris. They literally woudn't exist and sprang up from literally no former foundations. He built the thing from the ground up and you're telling me it went bat **** insane within a single generation, to the point that it stands effectively in opposition to his most basic principles?

    Let me remind you, he fundamentally built it from nothing. Even the supposed "old ways" are apparently not connected to this organization. That makes no bloody sense, if Boris literally IS part of that old way of things and his line inherently IS part of that. It makes no damn sense that he just built it like that.

    And then apparently the entire organization either went mad with power despite literally not existing until recently in any form, while also being built from ground up by a member of the old way(which now goes against what he represents), or one dude simply seized power from an organization founded by a dude that has a clear line of succession, and the entire thing went with it?
    I can see a scenario where Boris built this with Kostaltyn, who was the popular face with the people. They both agreed that these undesirable elements had to be removed from regular worship, but had a difference on opinion on how this should be achieved. Kostaltyn would see them labelled as heretics, as well as all magic users, but Boris hauled him into line - perfectly understanding that this questioned the legitimacy of his daughter and other Ice Witches.. .as well as risking causing a new schism just as he had united Kislev under one regime and church.

    Kostaltyn was kept in check by Boris, but with Boris out of the picture he is free to resume his hardline stance on magic.

    I don't see what is so crazy about a scenario like that... once Kostaltyn heard that Boris was lost. It doesn't sound like there is an actual war of such as yet, but just a changing tide of fervor. In real world Russia the Church was a powerful check and almost opponent of the Tzars at times.
    No, they didn't "work together" Boris built this along, as the literal HEAD PRIEST of Ursun. He is literally the founder and the highest religious authority within Kislev. On top of being the TZAR OF KISLEV.

    The entire idea is bonkers. I don't care for your headcanon, it makes no bloody sense that the man literally in charge of the nation AND of the entire religion, suddenly went against his own dynasty.
    It's your head canon to suggest he did - all we know is Kostaltyn does. This could literally have just happened as Boris disappeared/
    Yeah, sure, the ENTIRE organization did a full on 360 all of a sudden because Boris is gone. All he did suddenly thrown out the window. Because of one dude. presumably. Because that's how much it takes for the organization to just suddenly go straight up AGAINST the most central concepts that literally permeate the nation of Kislev's very foundations.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 8,250
    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    Yeah this bit could do with a bit more elaboration... perhaps Kostaltyn has taken it in a bit more of a firebrand / fanatical extreme direction compared to what Boris established?
    How the hell do you have "fanatical" if it's literally only been a single generation? On top of that, Boris literally just disappeared from Kislev. When exactly would've anyone had time to achieve those levels, especially to the point of opposing their founders daughter, in a span of, what, days? weeks? from the founder's disappearance?
    The fact that there is a new leader rof the Orthodoxy, me as that they had make an election or something, we know Boris dissapered, but we don't know how long has passed since then, or maybe he simply avdocated from his role and decides to embark on a crusade to the north, we don't know how mug time would have passed.
    "By the fires of Hashut, let them burn in the flames of eternal torment!"
    - Anonymous
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,871

    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    One of those ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’ things? The general idea is fairly sound as part of his reconstruction efforts and is not too dissimilar practices in other nations (which have fairly centralised and codified churches, albeit the gods are generally separate rather than confederated)

    If he set it up fairly early on in his reign as part of his efforts to strengthen Kislevite religion (which has been in his lore since at least 6th) it would have largely been before Kattarin was born and certainly before he knew she would be such a powerful Ice Witch (he became ‘the first High Priest of Ursun in over 400 years’ when she was an infant).

    One Kattarin was older and it became more apparent the new construct would be a problem for her it was probably too late to revert it without a major schism.
    Except it would already have been a problem for him because he literally became the High Priest of Ursun by the very same "old way" as any other one. He is a member of the old order, he is literally part of the same line as Katarin is, the entire thing reads as him founding a religion that literally opposes his own line of succession and tradition.
    There is such a thing as biding your time you know? Factions at court is as old as time. He may have always been more hardline, but kept in check by Boris. With Boris gone, he is free to remould the organisation to match his growing fervor.
    Yeah, but the entire thing is literally founded by Boris. They literally woudn't exist and sprang up from literally no former foundations. He built the thing from the ground up and you're telling me it went bat **** insane within a single generation, to the point that it stands effectively in opposition to his most basic principles?

    Let me remind you, he fundamentally built it from nothing. Even the supposed "old ways" are apparently not connected to this organization. That makes no bloody sense, if Boris literally IS part of that old way of things and his line inherently IS part of that. It makes no damn sense that he just built it like that.

    And then apparently the entire organization either went mad with power despite literally not existing until recently in any form, while also being built from ground up by a member of the old way(which now goes against what he represents), or one dude simply seized power from an organization founded by a dude that has a clear line of succession, and the entire thing went with it?
    I can see a scenario where Boris built this with Kostaltyn, who was the popular face with the people. They both agreed that these undesirable elements had to be removed from regular worship, but had a difference on opinion on how this should be achieved. Kostaltyn would see them labelled as heretics, as well as all magic users, but Boris hauled him into line - perfectly understanding that this questioned the legitimacy of his daughter and other Ice Witches.. .as well as risking causing a new schism just as he had united Kislev under one regime and church.

    Kostaltyn was kept in check by Boris, but with Boris out of the picture he is free to resume his hardline stance on magic.

    I don't see what is so crazy about a scenario like that... once Kostaltyn heard that Boris was lost. It doesn't sound like there is an actual war of such as yet, but just a changing tide of fervor. In real world Russia the Church was a powerful check and almost opponent of the Tzars at times.
    No, they didn't "work together" Boris built this along, as the literal HEAD PRIEST of Ursun. He is literally the founder and the highest religious authority within Kislev. On top of being the TZAR OF KISLEV.

    The entire idea is bonkers. I don't care for your headcanon, it makes no bloody sense that the man literally in charge of the nation AND of the entire religion, suddenly went against his own dynasty.
    I see where you are coming from but maybe Kostaltyn was just a higher ranking member of the new church and once Boris went missing he took control it and "purged" the old guard too be the uncontested leader.

    I don't want to be political and maybe too far fetched but for comparison like in the real world Lenin and Stalin?
    Except that Stalin and Lenin are still on the same supposed political axis. What Kostaltyn supposedly is, is in direct contradiction with the presumed basic concepts that literally form the nation of Kislev itself, if he literally opposes magic inherently.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • GreatGreyWolfSifGreatGreyWolfSif Registered Users Posts: 88
    I really want to hear his voice now. Let me hear that angry Russian screaming lol.
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,230
    edited May 2021
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    I see someone hasn't played Crusader Kings...

    "Whoa I can't believe how amazing both my sons are - truly worthy heirs to my empire!"

    One Death later

    "God-damn my brother is a bloody nuisance; can he not die already?!? STOP MAKING FACTIONS!!!!"
    Except that the dude that founded the entire thing is literally part of the supposed hereditary line going back to the Khan Queens.

    A newly minted organization suddenly becoming powerful and going up against a long established order, when they literally sprang up from that order, makes no bloody sense.
    Well in England we actually have a very strong precedent for this..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

    Later Catholic Monarchs of England would battle the Church which their own line created. At least Boris had a good reason - henry just needed a divorce!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_I_of_England

    "She is best known for her vigorous attempt to reverse the English Reformation, which had begun during the reign of her father, Henry VIII. Her attempt to restore to the church the property confiscated in the previous two reigns was largely thwarted by parliament, but during her five-year reign, Mary had over 280 religious dissenters burned at the stake in the Marian persecutions."
    The only issue being that Boris is quite literally the one who created the entire thing from what are supposed to be disorganized, traditionalist, weakened factions, into something that is apparently in opposition with his own line of succession's most fundamental principles.

    How exactly does someone have so little hindsight?
    Well I think Henry 8ths tale is if anything less believable with hindsight - he bankrupted the country, caused hundreds of years of civil strife and significantly reduced the power of the monarchy. He created a new powerful faction within his own nation with political clout enough to oppose him and his ancestors.

    It's an interest parallel between fact and fiction and personally I like it. Feels like classic Warhammer.
    Boris is not some dude. He is depicted as having effectively reconstructed Kislev from ground up and brought it back from the bring.

    That some organization apparently now directly opposes his literal line of succession, when that line quite literally created it, and effectively resurrected the nation, with the organization being developed from literally nothing, makes no bloody sense even with this supposed historical comparison.

    The entire Orthodoxy, owing its existence to Boris, with Boris literally being their HEAD PRIEST FOR A TIME... is insane. He literally dictates the damn creed.
    And Henry was head of the church of England for a time - indeed he even started the 'divinity' of the crown - to suggest the Monarchs were chosen by God.

    Besides they don't oppose the Tzarina because of her bloodline - by the sounds of it it is more along political axis. The Tzarina supports and promotes the old ways; plus magic is always suspect. However by right of her blood she is not directly opposed.

    Would be weirder if the fanatical preacher was a loyalist to be honest. Also for all we know this guy came along after Boris disappeared (or during a similar time frame) and has since changed things.
    That's what makes the thing even more ridiculous. They oppose her because of her MAGIC, when Ice magic is LITERALLY the thing that Kislevites see as THEIR ANCESTRAL LEGACY. And the founder of it is literally the member of the main dynasty that is known for its MAGIC USERS.

    Magic is not some ridiculous taboo like it is in the Empire. The Empire actually has a damn good reason why they dislike magic. They don't have a standardized magic school until mere 200 years ago, before that, their main teachings came from the Dwarfs who literally don't use magic. The Empire has a long standing suspision of magic, but Kislevites are LITERALLY founded by a god damn Magic wielder.

    It is utterly senseless that he opposes MAGIC when that is literally from whence Kislev DERIVES its one core strength.
    Yep - his ideology could be considered unpragmatic for the safety of Kislev. Though much could be said of Malekith trying to seize power - or Brettonia and the Empire fighting wars and wasting lives.

    Also...

    “You might call him a mad old man… and maybe he is."

    "To an outsider he may seem wild and near-unhinged"

    "We enjoyed playing around with that. His voice actor has put in an amazing performance, lots of spitting into the mic as he screams out Kostaltyn’s screeds"

    He is an insane populist and an antagosnist to our heroine - of course it doesn't sound sane!

    You are trying to rationalise something that doesn't need to be rationalised. Why does Palpatine need to be Emperor if he is already the most powerful man in the galaxy? Why does Sauron even want middle earth? Why did Julius Ceaser destroy rome for the sake of calling himself dictator?

    Not everything is pragmatic and 100% logical. You are overthinking a fantasy game - this isn't a political essay.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    edited May 2021
    It amuses me... constantly when we were having the discussions about Ice and Bears everywhere i was allowed to read:

    "Kislev is just a much more magical place, magical is amore important part of them and much more widerspread blablabla! UNlike the EMpire, the Ice witches are accepted and so on!"

    Now: "Rasputin is anti-ice witches!"

    LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!
    Post edited by TheGuardianOfMetal on
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 1,450

    I really want to hear his voice now. Let me hear that angry Russian screaming lol.

    there is no need to wait, play CS or Dota2
    BsFG dwarf
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,871
    No, seriously, someone explain this **** bit to me "And she’s a magic-user and therefore a heretic!" that line is the most ridiculous line that someone could've written for a Kislevite in the entire damn thing.

    Kislevites don't have prejudice against magic. The literal founder is a member of a line of magic users. A magic user literally founded the entire nation. Ice Magic is even shown to be quite ubiquitous to the entire nation, and now you have a line saying magic is apparently OPPOSED in Kislev? And that is apparently the POPULIST stance, somehow???
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,871

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    55JoNNo said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Ok, this time the lore is way off on how things should supposedly be.

    You're telling me that Boris created an organization that is now effectively OPPOSED to his daughter's rule?

    One of those ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’ things? The general idea is fairly sound as part of his reconstruction efforts and is not too dissimilar practices in other nations (which have fairly centralised and codified churches, albeit the gods are generally separate rather than confederated)

    If he set it up fairly early on in his reign as part of his efforts to strengthen Kislevite religion (which has been in his lore since at least 6th) it would have largely been before Kattarin was born and certainly before he knew she would be such a powerful Ice Witch (he became ‘the first High Priest of Ursun in over 400 years’ when she was an infant).

    One Kattarin was older and it became more apparent the new construct would be a problem for her it was probably too late to revert it without a major schism.
    Except it would already have been a problem for him because he literally became the High Priest of Ursun by the very same "old way" as any other one. He is a member of the old order, he is literally part of the same line as Katarin is, the entire thing reads as him founding a religion that literally opposes his own line of succession and tradition.
    There is such a thing as biding your time you know? Factions at court is as old as time. He may have always been more hardline, but kept in check by Boris. With Boris gone, he is free to remould the organisation to match his growing fervor.
    Yeah, but the entire thing is literally founded by Boris. They literally woudn't exist and sprang up from literally no former foundations. He built the thing from the ground up and you're telling me it went bat **** insane within a single generation, to the point that it stands effectively in opposition to his most basic principles?

    Let me remind you, he fundamentally built it from nothing. Even the supposed "old ways" are apparently not connected to this organization. That makes no bloody sense, if Boris literally IS part of that old way of things and his line inherently IS part of that. It makes no damn sense that he just built it like that.

    And then apparently the entire organization either went mad with power despite literally not existing until recently in any form, while also being built from ground up by a member of the old way(which now goes against what he represents), or one dude simply seized power from an organization founded by a dude that has a clear line of succession, and the entire thing went with it?
    I can see a scenario where Boris built this with Kostaltyn, who was the popular face with the people. They both agreed that these undesirable elements had to be removed from regular worship, but had a difference on opinion on how this should be achieved. Kostaltyn would see them labelled as heretics, as well as all magic users, but Boris hauled him into line - perfectly understanding that this questioned the legitimacy of his daughter and other Ice Witches.. .as well as risking causing a new schism just as he had united Kislev under one regime and church.

    Kostaltyn was kept in check by Boris, but with Boris out of the picture he is free to resume his hardline stance on magic.

    I don't see what is so crazy about a scenario like that... once Kostaltyn heard that Boris was lost. It doesn't sound like there is an actual war of such as yet, but just a changing tide of fervor. In real world Russia the Church was a powerful check and almost opponent of the Tzars at times.
    No, they didn't "work together" Boris built this along, as the literal HEAD PRIEST of Ursun. He is literally the founder and the highest religious authority within Kislev. On top of being the TZAR OF KISLEV.

    The entire idea is bonkers. I don't care for your headcanon, it makes no bloody sense that the man literally in charge of the nation AND of the entire religion, suddenly went against his own dynasty.
    I see where you are coming from but maybe Kostaltyn was just a higher ranking member of the new church and once Boris went missing he took control it and "purged" the old guard too be the uncontested leader.

    I don't want to be political and maybe too far fetched but for comparison like in the real world Lenin and Stalin?
    Except that Stalin and Lenin are still on the same supposed political axis. What Kostaltyn supposedly is, is in direct contradiction with the presumed basic concepts that literally form the nation of Kislev itself, if he literally opposes magic inherently.
    Fair enough.
    So either GW goes the complete retcon way (most likely) or they bring an interesting story that explain it.
    There's hardly any sort of retcon to be made when the entire thing is SELF CONTRADICTORY to the very things they have been doing for this entire release.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
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