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Skaven - No flying units?

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  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,194
    If we’re thinking about missing vehicles for Skaven, I’d say they require a fully customisable Rat Tank, which can equip a primary weapon and all the main weapons from the Forbidden Workshop.

    And a Warpstone Magma Cannon if CA have time.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,804
    edited June 1

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
    yeah neither unit is front line stuff they are specliazed units but still they are signifcantly better than great swords , and lets be real when was the last time you saw a great sword front line

    the Skaven issue is their mid tier which is weaker as bret player or empire player i can easily bust open a clan/ slave front line with swordsmen or men at arms swords as long they don't get shot, or even wild flagelent or pilgram build. that does not however change the fact the skaven elite infantry can beat all of these units.

    I mean, HE infantry can beat most elite infantry from other races, it still sucks in MP for the most part. Being a good infantry roster is not about having more expensive elite infantry units that beat other elite infantry units. It's about cost efficiency and versatility. And death runners are mostly unusable outside of the dwarf MU.
    yeah i agree usually in most match ups mid tier infantry are better which actually skaven have very little in MP.

    but that said i am seeing lot more elite infantry now in lot more MU's than in past

    even bestigors and deapth guard of all things (deapth guard suck ) but i do see them a lot more now
    Bestigors are actually good (for a lot of the same reasons black orcs are good). Depth guard aren't good but they're good vs stuff that's good vs coast chaff so if there's no dedicated tool vs them or this tool is disposed of they can work.

    Skaven infantry "elites" do exist, however they're usually far more specialized and on the lower eng of cost efficiency in their price bracket. E.g. censer bearers have low armour and are vulnerable to a lot of things but still won't trade well vs most units at their price level. They can break cheaper units fast though with their high cb and ld debuffs. But overall it's not a great unit for cost, it can pay off if you put them into very specific engagements. Same for most other Skaven "elites", they're not actually great units, they're more like Depth Guard - not good but can throw people off in certain scenarios. That's completely fine, but I just don't agree that Skaven infantry is good. Skaven chaff is good (as chaff) - it's cheap and can hold long enough for cost.
    Bestigors are trash even with CB fix still freaking trash because their stats are tied to primal fury which is active above 50% lD but they 66LD see once that goes trash

    while plague monk censor bears are just as good except for armour but shooting skaven with archers can back fire badly since skaven now have more than enough tools shut a archer line
    and if you really want you can give them armour of darkness which is crimanally under rated as ever player wants to have summons

    and out sides of things like chosen and blade singers theirs very little that can beat plague monks on a clean charge they do work . they as all shock infantry was suffring from a another stupid bug that was fixed in the rakarth patch.
    Bestigors are still reasonably cheap, have a big HP pool, amazing speed for heavy infantry and do a lot of damage on the charge/break through the lines fast.

    I think censer bearers lose even to saurus warriors 1v1 (or at least trade extremely poorly) though it was a long time since I tested it. I also remember that they lose to halberd units like temple guard. They will probably actually beat bestigors but overall bestigors are far more versatile and reliable.
    try now, they were a shock infantry but their CB wasn't working properly, should be much better trade

    bestigors baseline 30 some speed its all primal furry on 66ld unit that make speed up to 40 something
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,804
    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    User_Clue said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    What exactly do you consider useful standard infantry?

    Infantry that’s useful in MP or very hard+ campaign.


    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    Quoting the Bretts have bad infantry is kinda pointless, it's another faction that wasn't built around having a strong one. A weakness you've specifically tried to void in other threads. Bret's point is not a strong line, it's cavalry. You're comparing lackluster infantry to lackluster infantry. Doesn't matter.
    and better than empire and dwarfs as death runners kind of beat nearly every thing there in melee
    Crushing dwarf lines is something I absolutely do not do with my skaven infantry, I leave that to my magic, range, and other things.

    And you seemed to miss prior to all the DLC for Skaven their infantry was not holding, did not win them the day. What started to win them anything was as their many other tools got better and various holes they had deliberately left out for DLC were plugged. When I watch the actual champs from MP it's about their lord choice, their specialty units, and a host of things they are far more concerned about.
    yeah previously you mean before both mass changes, charge fix , and before skaven reworks to death runners.

    before that seriously hell only now we start to see elite infantry a lot , for any race they were not viable before

    skaven do have a weakness its their mid tier infantry that is kind of meh point clan rats don't hold up agianst many units and have no idea how effective plage monk not censor bearar work
    No, not at all. More guns, more monsters, strong lords, more machine and specialty units. This is what skaven brought ot the table with DLC and what wins for them.

    If you removed those tools, buffs, spells, you'd see quickly how well their line folds. You're woefully failing to realize how much of a difference that backline gives them.
    oh i do but that doesn't mean front line is weak , the opposite it makes a few elite units mixed in the second line shine which how you should use elite infantry to begin with in Most MU. skaven do have elite infantry and they do their intended task well.


    and which is fact is what the skaven meta s shifiting towards because right now their whole skaven slave front lines are not working well enough.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 960
    @drogarito92, those aren't actual units, those are fan made kitbashes that someone made using pieces from several Age of Sigmar Dwarf units. They even used some parts from empire units too.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    edited June 2
    Pre End Times, as a predominantly subterranean race Skaven haven't really invested any resources into developing flying machines or monsters.

    But, while no official models or rules exist, as I've mentioned before in the End Times Skaven were able to reverse engineer destroyed dwarven gyrocopters and build their own flying machines using materials from the wreckages in short order.

    In AoS they have the Much-Great Sky-Kill Air Armada (see https://ageofsigmar.fandom.com/wiki/Skaven) and other skyfleets following its example, which was probably the inspiration for the kitbashes. It's possible some flying units will appear in the next editions either as a part of the main list or as a new splinter list.
  • ToxicFlamesToxicFlames Registered Users Posts: 443
    edited June 2
    though skaven are capable of building flying machine's they are too scared to try it. afraid the sky might swallow them or something. me-me no like high place's

    Plus No need for Warpfire Dragons. they look Awsome but rather Someone make a Mod for them
  • AethelstanAethelstan Registered Users Posts: 320
    A concept for skaven flying units was posted to the Skaven Reddit a while ago (credit u/Hekkin_frick), I think if they got flyers they should look something like this. Two rats grafted together in a mockery of life feels much more Skaven than gyrocopters to me. As a unit, they could function the same as ordinary harpies as a back line harasser.
    Now then, what's going on 'ere? I'll have no more o' this!
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 323
    Wow that looks pretty cool!
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