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why is grom getting nerfed now?

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  • makar55makar55 Registered Users Posts: 2,617
    The usual. The unit gets nerfed because of 5 youtubers playing MP.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,414

    Valkaar said:

    You can't look at the ladder or lobbies as a measurement of how many people play MP, that will give you an inaccurate numbers. Most serious players play on discord servers. MP is far bigger and more important than the naysayers recognize.

    Discord might be where they communicate and chat....but where do they PLAY? Like I can join any format for social chat that I want. I can be on Discord, or the MP section of these forums, or on Reddit, or the Youtube comment section, or wherever. But where do I actually play my games? I can't play the game from Discord, even if I'm using Discord for voice comms. I can't boot up the game from Reddit. There is no "Find Match" button on Youtube.

    So where do they actually PLAY their games?

    Either in a custom battle (less than 50 players online at any given time)

    Or on ladder (less than 1000 players meaningfully active per ladder reset)

    ^^Those aren't 'fake numbers'. That's just who's actually playing MP.

    You can't look at the view count on a Turin video for example...and then be like....OH tens of thousands of people must play MP because they watched the video. Or logged into a discord chat. Or whatever else. That's just not how it works. If you want to know how many people play MP, you have look at where they actually PLAY the games (custom battles and ladder).

    The custom battle numbers show the number of people playing in your region, not the total number of people currently playing custom battle. One of the more irritating things with custom battles from Discord people is that 4 times out of 5 I have to add my opponent in Steam and use invites; I just don't see the game otherwise.

    So multiply that 50 by 2 or 3 at least.
    A: The 50 number was already being generous to account for some of that. Like the actual number of people I physically saw online last night was like, 8. This morning I think I saw 34. Those averages aren't flukes. They're pretty average. I only said 50 to account for the extra 8 people that might online in China or something because I have no actual way to track that.

    B: It's not like 150 people in custom battles at a time greatly enhances your argument....especially when it's being stacked against 20,000-40,0000 online Singleplayers.
  • kratostatickratostatic Registered Users Posts: 412
    Valkaar said:

    Valkaar said:

    You can't look at the ladder or lobbies as a measurement of how many people play MP, that will give you an inaccurate numbers. Most serious players play on discord servers. MP is far bigger and more important than the naysayers recognize.

    Discord might be where they communicate and chat....but where do they PLAY? Like I can join any format for social chat that I want. I can be on Discord, or the MP section of these forums, or on Reddit, or the Youtube comment section, or wherever. But where do I actually play my games? I can't play the game from Discord, even if I'm using Discord for voice comms. I can't boot up the game from Reddit. There is no "Find Match" button on Youtube.

    So where do they actually PLAY their games?

    Either in a custom battle (less than 50 players online at any given time)

    Or on ladder (less than 1000 players meaningfully active per ladder reset)

    ^^Those aren't 'fake numbers'. That's just who's actually playing MP.

    You can't look at the view count on a Turin video for example...and then be like....OH tens of thousands of people must play MP because they watched the video. Or logged into a discord chat. Or whatever else. That's just not how it works. If you want to know how many people play MP, you have look at where they actually PLAY the games (custom battles and ladder).

    The custom battle numbers show the number of people playing in your region, not the total number of people currently playing custom battle. One of the more irritating things with custom battles from Discord people is that 4 times out of 5 I have to add my opponent in Steam and use invites; I just don't see the game otherwise.

    So multiply that 50 by 2 or 3 at least.
    A: The 50 number was already being generous to account for some of that. Like the actual number of people I physically saw online last night was like, 8. This morning I think I saw 34. Those averages aren't flukes. They're pretty average. I only said 50 to account for the extra 8 people that might online in China or something because I have no actual way to track that.

    B: It's not like 150 people in custom battles at a time greatly enhances your argument....especially when it's being stacked against 20,000-40,0000 online Singleplayers.
    Oh I'm not arguing that MP is anywhere near SP. I am arguing that you're underestimating the numbers somewhat.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,414

    Valkaar said:

    Valkaar said:

    You can't look at the ladder or lobbies as a measurement of how many people play MP, that will give you an inaccurate numbers. Most serious players play on discord servers. MP is far bigger and more important than the naysayers recognize.

    Discord might be where they communicate and chat....but where do they PLAY? Like I can join any format for social chat that I want. I can be on Discord, or the MP section of these forums, or on Reddit, or the Youtube comment section, or wherever. But where do I actually play my games? I can't play the game from Discord, even if I'm using Discord for voice comms. I can't boot up the game from Reddit. There is no "Find Match" button on Youtube.

    So where do they actually PLAY their games?

    Either in a custom battle (less than 50 players online at any given time)

    Or on ladder (less than 1000 players meaningfully active per ladder reset)

    ^^Those aren't 'fake numbers'. That's just who's actually playing MP.

    You can't look at the view count on a Turin video for example...and then be like....OH tens of thousands of people must play MP because they watched the video. Or logged into a discord chat. Or whatever else. That's just not how it works. If you want to know how many people play MP, you have look at where they actually PLAY the games (custom battles and ladder).

    The custom battle numbers show the number of people playing in your region, not the total number of people currently playing custom battle. One of the more irritating things with custom battles from Discord people is that 4 times out of 5 I have to add my opponent in Steam and use invites; I just don't see the game otherwise.

    So multiply that 50 by 2 or 3 at least.
    A: The 50 number was already being generous to account for some of that. Like the actual number of people I physically saw online last night was like, 8. This morning I think I saw 34. Those averages aren't flukes. They're pretty average. I only said 50 to account for the extra 8 people that might online in China or something because I have no actual way to track that.

    B: It's not like 150 people in custom battles at a time greatly enhances your argument....especially when it's being stacked against 20,000-40,0000 online Singleplayers.
    Oh I'm not arguing that MP is anywhere near SP. I am arguing that you're underestimating the numbers somewhat.
    Yeah, for custom battles, your estimates might? be more correct. It is honestly hard to tell though. Somebody like MilknCookies might make a video showing off a cool new GCCM map, which gets 75,000 views, generates a lot of hype and excitement, which is impressive for a custom battle! And then, it's nearly impossible to find anyone actually online in custom battles who has any interest in playing on that map, or who has even downloaded GCCM to begin with. It's weird. So I'll concede my bead on the situation isn't scientifically precise.

    But I stand by the fact that whatever the numbers are, they aren't enough to support the argument that the development/popularity of this game is 'MP-Driven'. Maybe you specifically weren't making that argument anyway. But yeah, if MP was popular enough to significantly influence substantial design decisions or resource allocation, CA would have invested more resources into MP to begin with. Even simple stuff, like chat/clan functions, among many other things, are more barebones and feature-less than 1990's AoL dial-up chat rooms.

    ^^CA wouldn't DARE let any major SP domain, like the Campaign intro-cinematics for example, stagnate at the resolution level of 1990's RPG's by comparison. Soooo if MP features are equivalent to the 90's, while SP features are fairly modern....I think it's fair to say that the bulk of CA's efforts are SP driven.....because it's an SP game!

    But seriously CA. Fix/upgrade your in-game chat. Please. It's currently painful :D
  • ArsenicArsenic Registered Users Posts: 6,534
    I wonder if there's any chance of AI Grom finally getting Massif Orcal?

    Its daft that AI grom stands practically no chance of surviving past turn 10. Likewise AI Imrik.
    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,180
    Grom needs factional nerfs, primarily to the cauldron. It just eliminates all difficulty. Moulder's stuff is ridiculous in the same fashion, and indeed, even more so.

    Pump wagons also need nerfs.

    Most ORC units need buffs. Some goblins need a bit of downgrade, but not *too* hard.

    Boar Chariots need love, badly. Boar Boys and what not... actually *can* be made decent, eventually. The problem is that NG Squig Hoppas are so much better that there's no point unless you just want to use orcs. Also, IMO it takes too long to make them useful. Their tiers are also screwed up.

    Night Goblin Squig Hoppas are objectively too good. But they have to be right now while all the other cavalry sucks. Squig Herds are fine -- but should be faster. If hoppas are high speed, I see no reason the same squigs without riders should be slower.

    Spiders and Wolves also need love. I think spiders just need a full model count (from 45 to 60, at my settings) - they are goblins and should maintain goblin unit sizes; would have to see how that works out before thinking of other stuff ----------------------------- ALL SPIDERS INCLUDING ARACHNAROKS NEED TO BE ABLE TO CLIMB WALLS -------------------------------. The Wolves? Just kinda suck... they should be dropped to Tier 1, and either the building should have a tier 1 slot, or have them just be recruitable from somewhere else.

    Pump Wagons are far too durable and too good in sustained combat. They should be a highly fragile unit that has a ludicrous charge -- able to just plough through a unit of infantry, but be crappy on turning and getting away. Right now they are fire-and-forget chariots that require no micro. And that's awful.

    River Trolls... not impressed. Touch too weak. Improve their aura, IMO.

    None of this matters now, though. We'll see if anything is changed or gets changed for game 3 :(

    I expect beastmen to be absolutely absurd when they come. One last face-rolling. Game 3 will hopefully see everything balanced out in the end.

    Note: SP related. MP has additional factors that make balancing a lot better. I wish SP would get unit caps and cost limitations per army... sigh :(
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,440
    Doesn't it seem that sadly, the goblins side of the GS has received way more attention ? Goblins are fun, certainly, but remove them and the roster is bland and not impressive. Boyz, big uns, Black orcs, boar boays anb boar big 'uns, chariot.
    Trolls are a bit of in between. There are savage orcs, and they are actually often more effective, if you can recruit them.
  • yukontherunyukontherun Registered Users Posts: 869
    edited June 11

    In multiplayer *Spit* he seems to be considered OP. On campaign the only issue I found was that the cauldron effects length were too generous, 15 turns is waaaay too much, especially the more powerful recipes.

    You spit on MP? Without MP TWWH or TW as a whole wouldn't be the success it is. 3K killed its MP right away. Look what happened.
    I spit on MP too. 3k wasn't killed by lack of MP it was killed by lack of DLC sales, including redundant units. What keeps Warhammer alive is CA selling Lord packs which include units like elite chameleon skinks that the multiplayer niche hates but the campaign majority base loves.


    And multiplayer online presence is overrated, mandalorian review of the campaign mode probably brought more new players to total warhammer than all the multiplayer streamers combined.
    Justice for the scalies!

    Basic fixes for blessed spawnings and geomantic web:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293369/lizardmen-rework-suggestions/p1?new=1
  • Bogdanov89Bogdanov89 Registered Users Posts: 1,093
    You dont reallly have to use grom as a chariot, he is busted enough to be sent into melee and forget about him like he is tyrion.
    Check out the Community Bug Fix Mod on the Steam Workshop.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 2,909

    You dont reallly have to use grom as a chariot, he is busted enough to be sent into melee and forget about him like he is tyrion.

    Except why would you not abuse his mobility, mass, and charge bonus?


    It's like saying you don't need to cycle charge Blood Knights due to their respectable stats...but they have such monstrous charge bonus it's crazy not to
  • Bogdanov89Bogdanov89 Registered Users Posts: 1,093

    You dont reallly have to use grom as a chariot, he is busted enough to be sent into melee and forget about him like he is tyrion.

    Except why would you not abuse his mobility, mass, and charge bonus?
    It's like saying you don't need to cycle charge Blood Knights due to their respectable stats...but they have such monstrous charge bonus it's crazy not to
    My point is that as a chariot Grom is supposed to keep moving to be useful but he is so broken that he can be used as if he is a god damn tyrion with sword of khaine just staying in melee 24/7.

    Lords on chariots should not surpass foot lords and other mounted lords in "standing still" combat.
    Check out the Community Bug Fix Mod on the Steam Workshop.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 6,943

    In multiplayer *Spit* he seems to be considered OP. On campaign the only issue I found was that the cauldron effects length were too generous, 15 turns is waaaay too much, especially the more powerful recipes.

    You spit on MP? Without MP TWWH or TW as a whole wouldn't be the success it is. 3K killed its MP right away. Look what happened.
    3K died because it had copypasta boring-ass rosters with practically zero faction diversity until Nanman came out (far too late to save it).
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.
  • kratostatickratostatic Registered Users Posts: 412
    Amonkhet said:

    In multiplayer *Spit* he seems to be considered OP. On campaign the only issue I found was that the cauldron effects length were too generous, 15 turns is waaaay too much, especially the more powerful recipes.

    You spit on MP? Without MP TWWH or TW as a whole wouldn't be the success it is. 3K killed its MP right away. Look what happened.
    3K died because it had copypasta boring-ass rosters with practically zero faction diversity until Nanman came out (far too late to save it).
    It (also) died because the actual fans of the 3 Kingdoms period are fans of the characters of the period, and the first DLC was 8 Princes which has absolutely nothing to do with them, and as it's own period is not especially well-liked.

    And also although the main game was very polished, the DLC were in general very buggy as I understand.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 13,894
    Valkaar said:

    Valkaar said:

    In multiplayer *Spit* he seems to be considered OP. On campaign the only issue I found was that the cauldron effects length were too generous, 15 turns is waaaay too much, especially the more powerful recipes.

    You spit on MP? Without MP TWWH or TW as a whole wouldn't be the success it is. 3K killed its MP right away. Look what happened.
    I enjoy MP. About half my hours are in MP. But don’t delude yourself, this is NOT an MP game.

    This isn’t Starcraft, where support for the game extended a decade after launch because of the healthy tournament scene while the total single player campaign length was well less than 100 hours across all the entries.

    No, this is the complete reverse of that. The Singleplayer is the bulk of where people spend their time. The MP is wildly imbalanced, the tournaments/prize pool/player base is EXPONENTIALLY smaller than the Singleplayer base. The vast majority of the largest content creator channels are SINGLEPLAYER. Unlike Starcraft where the game’s ‘celebrities’ are pretty much all MP players/casters or retired versions of the same.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad MP exists, this is some of the best MP Total War has had in a very long time, and I wish MP got more features/balance/support in general. MP definitely has potential for growth as demonstrated by the 700 player World Championship. But MP isn’t ‘driving the franchise’ in any meaningful way.

    *Literally less than 1000 of the players play enough ladder to get more than 100 wins per ladder reset. With ladder resets coming about once every 6 months. So in 6 months, 1000 players or less are logging 100+ ladder games. Literally less than 50 players are doing custom battles at any given time. As impressive as the 700 player tournament was, that tournament was like a "once in a Total War lifetime event! Other titles do similar things on an exponentially larger scale, on a DAILY basis. Let’s compare:

    Starcraft has literally 800 Grandmaster players at any given time (required to play and win multiple matches almost daily to retain their rank). Grandmasters being pulled out of the regular Masters league which by itself is designed to have less than 2-5% of the total ladder playerbase at all times. Automated tournaments are held daily across all the leagues. And professionally casted tournaments go on in seasons where you'll see each of the major leagues put on 3/4 events a year. All while an average of 10,000-20,000 ladder games are being played at all times across all leagues in SC2. That’s 20,000-40,000 players, since you need 2 for a match. That’s about how many log into Total Warhammer 2 daily, total.

    Sooo yeah, if Game 2 has 20,000-40,000 active players daily (Steamdb averages), while less than 1,000 actually meaningfully ladder over the course of 6 months; with probably only a couple hundred laddering each day; I don’t think you can even begin to claim this is an MP driven game.

    Your Three Kingdoms comparison is a totally spurious correlation as well. CA has both stopped balancing MP, and stopped supporting many titles altogether over time. How long before they stopped supporting the game has had ZERO correlation with how long they stopped balancing MP within the same title in question. On the other hand, a much stronger correlation exists in terms of how long CA has supported a title, and how consistently healthily its Singleplayer activity was. Rome 2 for example, didn’t continue to get DLC years after launch because of its vigorous tournament scene. It got DLC because it was still one of their most played historical titles campaign-wise.

    TL;DR: As much as I love MP in this game, don’t overstate its importance to the franchise in the grand scheme of things. It’s Singleplayer that is driving this machine forward. The MP scene would need to grow exponentially from where it is now before the reverse would become true.
    I disagree 100%.

    Imagine TWWH had no MP at all. That means no online battle reports, no tournament streams and promotions, none of that. TWWH's online presence is basically cut by two thirds. Do you think less media presence is a good thing? From at least Rome Total War on, after battle reports have been a staple of the series. I mean, I had gotten M2 early, but shelved it after a few days until I watched online battle reports and my interest was rekindled and I completed my collection of TW games.

    It doesn't matter that the game isn't an MP game like Starcraft. It matters that MP attracts a sizable amount of players and that those players actually have an interest in balancing the game because in MP such things are front and center while they're obscured in SP thanks to countless added variables.

    If you think MP doesn't matter to TW, then consider yourself lucky no one at CA agreed with you, other than the 3K devs, and those only managed to kill the game.

    You're being completely disingenuous with my argument.

    I PLAY MP dude. More than most people. Out of the 2000+ hours in the two games, 1000+ is in MP.

    I DO want more ladder features, more balance, more replay features, more chat options, better observer UI, etc. etc. I have asked for those things/voiced those thoughts in threads on the MP side of these boards multiple times.

    I obviously think media coverage is a GOOD thing for the game. Although I am HIGHLY skeptical of your 2/3 number....Turin is arguably the most popular MP personality, though he's not the only one ofc, and he holds an exponentially smaller viewership than those who predominantly focus on Singleplayer. He's got 100k subscribers, and averages 10k-30k views per video. Which is impressive to be sure! But it isn't 66% of the Total War presence on Youtube. Not even close. The most popular Singleplayer content creators, by comparison, have 400k subscribers, and average 50k-100k views per video on average. And there's more than one of them about that size. There's only one "Turin-sized" MP dedicated channel: Turin. The rest of the MP channels that I'm aware of are substantially smaller than Turin. And No, just because a Youtuber (like HeirofCarthage) occasionally posts MP replays, does not make them an 'MP Youtuber". Lots of those kinds of channels are predominantly Singleplayer contributers, with their highest views/most of their videos being Singleplayer focused.

    ^^So to your point, with no MP, this game likely loses about 10% ish, maybe, of its online presence. I obviously don't want that to happen. It wouldn't be a good thing. But my ACTUAL argument, is not that I hate MP and want it to die, and think it does nothing for the game. My ACTUAL argument is that you're dramatically overstating your case/MP's importance. Because you ARE.

    Yes, MP has ushered in some nice features, like scorescreen breakdowns, which are nice! But MP has EQUALLY harmed the game in other ways as well. Many units that were OP in MP, but fine in Singleplayer, were hit so hard with the nerf bat for MP reasons, that they came out of the process not 'balanced'....but crippled and useless outside of meme reasons in both modes *sheds a tear for Sally the Salamander*.

    So for BALANCING, MP has done about as much harm as good. It's been a trade-off, not a linear improvement.

    ^^But that's besides the point.

    The point is, I don't think MP "doesn't matter to Total War". I think that "it doesn't matter as much as you seem to think it does". There's a difference. I'm not saying MP is totally irrelevant. I'm saying you're overstating your case.

    This is a Singleplayer game. Most of its players, features, content creators, development, etc. etc. is geared towards Singleplayer. Not 100% obviously. SOME of it's players/features/content creators/development, is geared towards MP. But not anywhere near as much as you think. Surely not 2/3 as you said. I'm sorry if those facts bother you. But it doesn't change the truth of the matter that MP is the heavy minority of this game and its online presence.

    dunno but pretty sure campaign only creator of any note are literally just legend in and his channel has been in tw games well before tww so his sub numbers are not accurate reading .

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Arcani_4_EverArcani_4_Ever Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,731
    Grom himself is alright.

    The problem is his Faction Mechanics.

    His Cauldron is so **** OP.

    It basically makes playing any other Greenskin Faction pointless.

    Also the Tech Tree is very Gobbo focused.

    We need another Greenskin DLC, this time focusing on the Orcs.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,180
    Only pointless if all you care about is raw power.

    I find him the least entertaining GS LL.

    I'm also really sad about Death Juice... it made Skarsnik a lot less fun. He went from one of the most challenging LL in the game to being easy -- and that sucks.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 32,686

    In multiplayer *Spit* he seems to be considered OP. On campaign the only issue I found was that the cauldron effects length were too generous, 15 turns is waaaay too much, especially the more powerful recipes.

    You spit on MP? Without MP TWWH or TW as a whole wouldn't be the success it is. 3K killed its MP right away. Look what happened.
    I spit on MP too. 3k wasn't killed by lack of MP it was killed by lack of DLC sales, including redundant units. What keeps Warhammer alive is CA selling Lord packs which include units like elite chameleon skinks that the multiplayer niche hates but the campaign majority base loves.


    And multiplayer online presence is overrated, mandalorian review of the campaign mode probably brought more new players to total warhammer than all the multiplayer streamers combined.
    False.

    TW SP media presence? LPs that get boring halfway through because anyone who knows what they're doing is invincible by turn 50. What's the most SP content people care about? Legend's stupid cheese tactics?

    MP is where it's at and people should stop being in denial.

    3K killing its MP right away is one major factor why it died.

  • LordCommanderLordCommander Registered Users Posts: 2,223


    MP is where it's at and people should stop being in denial.

    Well present us some evidence, 'cos I call ****.
    Just as a warning against making predictions- https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/290416/time-to-admit-there-will-be-no-new-dlc-for-twwh-2#latest

    Anyone using the term 'iconic' incorrectly to pad out their dumb argument will be subject to immediate Bloodthirster summoning.
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 792

    You dont reallly have to use grom as a chariot, he is busted enough to be sent into melee and forget about him like he is tyrion.

    I mean, you kind of can, but that would be a horrible idea. I mean, Tyrion sports a jolly 60 MD base which is gonna be up to 72 at the beginning of a battle because of his martial mastery and can go up to over 100 with his other skills.

    Grom has a base MD of 30 and can go up to a glorious 35 with Language of da Boyz. Grom can tank for a while due to his regeneration and lucky banner but if you actually just try to leave him in melee you are gonna be losing him within 2 minutes or less unless you've sent him into weak canon fodder. Anything even remotely resembling either a large monster or heavy cavalry or a skilled duelist is gonna tear him a new one and his lucky banner alone isn't gonna be enough to even the odds.

    That aside, Grom isn't gonna be generating a lot of value in sustained melee. If you want ITP in an AoE you coulda just brought a BOBB with any other lord and unlike Tyrion he's not an absolute shredder in melee. If you want him to pay off you need to make use of his 90 CB and his ability to still attack whilst pushing through a unit.
  • peabodyestatepeabodyestate Registered Users Posts: 1,296
    Grom does certainly survive charged in on his own even late game (single player). If they left the flappas and the normal goblins as is, and nerfed everything else id be happy (including Grom himself).

    Just getting rid of that cloicky t5 idol item would be massive. Its ridonculous. Make it late game somehow.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,180
    The reason folks dis on MP shiro is because despite what you say the numbers just aren't there to back it up. Most people don't play it. TW is not eSports material.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 2,909
    Itharus said:

    The reason folks dis on MP shiro is because despite what you say the numbers just aren't there to back it up. Most people don't play it. TW is not eSports material.

    You're ignoring all the other things mp is doing for your game.

    Its thanks to mp that the battles are even as good as they are, as without them the game balance, while still bad, would have been irredeemably ****.


    It's a thanks to mp that we find out which units or comboes are abusive and OP, which units are underpowered, they're way quicker at identifying battle bugs than campaign players, and it's because of mp that the game gains continued exposure over YouTube. Notice how bigger names like Turin did more Warcraft 3 videos than Warhammer campaigns. The only major streamer who regularly do campaigns is LegendOfTotalWar.


    In theory Head-To-Head campaigns aren't too bad as they combine the best of both worlds, but they require insane time and scheduling work for two streamers to pull off, and triple the bugs that occurs.
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 2,284

    Itharus said:

    The reason folks dis on MP shiro is because despite what you say the numbers just aren't there to back it up. Most people don't play it. TW is not eSports material.

    You're ignoring all the other things mp is doing for your game.

    Its thanks to mp that the battles are even as good as they are, as without them the game balance, while still bad, would have been irredeemably ****.


    It's a thanks to mp that we find out which units or comboes are abusive and OP, which units are underpowered, they're way quicker at identifying battle bugs than campaign players, and it's because of mp that the game gains continued exposure over YouTube. Notice how bigger names like Turin did more Warcraft 3 videos than Warhammer campaigns. The only major streamer who regularly do campaigns is LegendOfTotalWar.


    In theory Head-To-Head campaigns aren't too bad as they combine the best of both worlds, but they require insane time and scheduling work for two streamers to pull off, and triple the bugs that occurs.
    Agree, it is also free marketing and visibilty for the game.
    On a side note, wasn't the Hellebron bug identified because of a streamer?
    Again something MP is helpful for, I say that as someone who dosen't play multiplayer.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,180

    Itharus said:

    The reason folks dis on MP shiro is because despite what you say the numbers just aren't there to back it up. Most people don't play it. TW is not eSports material.

    You're ignoring all the other things mp is doing for your game.

    Its thanks to mp that the battles are even as good as they are, as without them the game balance, while still bad, would have been irredeemably ****.


    It's a thanks to mp that we find out which units or comboes are abusive and OP, which units are underpowered, they're way quicker at identifying battle bugs than campaign players, and it's because of mp that the game gains continued exposure over YouTube. Notice how bigger names like Turin did more Warcraft 3 videos than Warhammer campaigns. The only major streamer who regularly do campaigns is LegendOfTotalWar.


    In theory Head-To-Head campaigns aren't too bad as they combine the best of both worlds, but they require insane time and scheduling work for two streamers to pull off, and triple the bugs that occurs.
    Actually I loathe a number of balance changes the MP crowd forced on us and I damned well wish they'd balance the two SEPARATELY.

    Although I also wish they'd take Unit Caps and Cost Caps and port those over to SP -- that'd help so much. And who knows, if they did that maybe the balances would become unified. There are still ability changes that were terrible, though. AND I WILL NOT FORGIVE MPERS FOR THE VANGUARD CHANGES. Shame on you.
  • antony23antony23 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 254
    I also kinda hate a lot of the changes multiplayer balance forced upon singleplayer, but it is what it is. hopefully Grom is still interesting and fun to play, playing him makes me wish the cauldron was baseline for all greenskins it's such a nice feature of choices and customization for units.

    Definitely too powerful in it's current state though goblins are ripping everything apart, maybe make it more expensive and shorter or slightly less good.

    Totally agree about actually giving orcs some love not just gobbo's to me it still seems like there's not an actual orc LL.
    I'm blind not deaf
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 2,909
    edited June 13
    Itharus said:

    Although I also wish they'd take Unit Caps and Cost Caps and port those over to SP -- that'd help so much. And who knows, if they did that maybe the balances would become unified.

    That's the one time I fully agree with a point you made...


    Now go right ahead and post this suggestion in the Subreddit. Please report back how those idiots there handle such a suggestion.


    I'd be open to separate balancing if and only if CA actually shows they take balancing seriously. Do you have any idea how many morons at the reddit hold this "jUsT dON't bUiLd thAt uNIt" belief? It's like the very thought of an optional unit cap as a pre-campaign setting is poison to them.


    But I'll re-iterate, Head-to-Head campaigns holds the best of both world and was easily one of THE BEST campaign I ever had regardless of the extreme difficulty in setting one up. And as such, mp balance is pretty important for that mode, even if, yes, mp battles don't take into account skill trees, techs, and faction bonuses. But let's be honest here, those things need a serious hard trimming and re-balance by CA anyways. On one corner you have Grom's **** cauldron buffs that turns your army into Ironman. On the other corner you have the fact that War Wagons benefits from a grand total of one single Tech.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,440
    Reddit is not that opposed to campaign changes, though. But it's true many propositions won't fly there.

  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 2,909
    Unless said proposition is in the form of a stupid meme photoshop, that is.


    Then people will even agree with "Hitler was right" if the picture is funny enough.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,180
    Sorry, I don't use Reddit.

    I tried to make an account once, and inexplicably the browser crashed. I took that as a sign.
  • DruidsbrookDruidsbrook Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 232
    I love Greenskins and Grom but the whole faction does feel like "Goblins & Friends". I'd be happy with some Orc Big un spears or some black orcs with shields just any orc attention really.
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