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Lizardmen buff suggestions for next patch

EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 433
Lets start talking about the elephant on the room. Chamaleons, solar engine and terradons. These 3 units are undeniably good, but i think the only one of them that diserves nerfs are terradons, as they are the unit that has more impact on the battlefield if the oponent is not prepared. For that reason, terradons (600 cost variant) should be nerfed with -3 or -4 ammo.

Buff suggestions:

Concentration instincts- This is just a worse version of cold blood. Plenty of games were there is actually no reason to click on this ability. It should grant +5 LD on an AoE.

Tiqtakto´s blade of ancient skies- Cant insist more on how bad this item is due to how easily air combat can be avoided or if the oponent doesnt bring flyers at all. I think a good idea would be to make the item grant less stats, but Tiqtakto keeps half of the stats when he is on the ground.

Tehenhauin- Serpents´ tongue blade should be better due to Tehenhauin alredy having poison by default and how prevalent poison alredy is on Lizardmen roster. Either increase AoE to 55m or increase charge bonus buff. Also, -50 cost to stegadon mount.

Nakai- Give him inmune to psychology, -50 cost and increase duration of primal roar +3 secs.

Terradon mount for skink chief and skink priests- Give them vanguard deployment for game consistency and because there are arguments to make about it being slightly overpriced.

Ark of Sotek- I think the diameter of the vortex is quite small taking into consideration how easily enemy units can get out from it and that the Ark has to take some risk diving on enemy lines to place it correctly. So +20% diameter increase on vortex.

Revivification Crystal and Engine of the Gods- Would be nice if these units didnt stop moving while using their bound abilities or if their cast time was a bit faster.

Salamanders and Razordons- +8 HP per model. The main problem is how fast they bleed models for their price paired with how microintensive they are because of their range.

Ancient Salamander- +200 HP.

Sacred Kroxigors- +2 MD.

RoR Sacred Kroxigors- +15 % missile resistance, -5% physical resistance and +50 cost.
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Comments

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,310
    edited June 14
    The roster has so many useless units its shocking.
    Near, pretty much if not EVERY single dlc liz units r completely unviable

    Useless red crest, frikking the usual useless sotek, engine, razordon, both salamanders, boxigors, dont even know where to start

    And kroak lol, if theres any unit that deserves the #1 most useless unit in game, he pretty wins uncontested. He makes trash guards looks like a 5 stars

    Ark of sotek is a really bad unit, I mean all those listed r in the $100s to $500s overpriced, kroak pays $500 for a single spell, CA cheaply make 2 overcast version and makes u pay like $400 for them lol.

    And ancient sal, good lord how bad is this unit, ush bow r far superior than it in every single way, this trash is easily overpriced by $250s

    And engine of gods, what kind of god damn garbage is that, I dont think any1 would even pay $1600 for it and its asking for $2050
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  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 511
    Energyzed said:



    RoR Sacred Kroxigors- +15 % missile resistance, -5% physical resistance and +50 cost.

    If you just added 15% missile resist and none of those nerfs, still wouldn't take em. Monstrous infantry in general is bad right now, Sacred Kroxigors have always been bad, RoR Sacred Kroxigors are supremely overpriced and probably the worst RoR Lizardmen have.

    Would say the buff to Ancient Sally is to small 200-400 HP and 5 leadership is more in the ballpark of what i would like to see. should have same LD as solar since it's not a feral dino.

    I agree with most of the other changes but like to see bigger rework on Nakia and think Gor-Rok needs some help maybe 5% more physical resist i mean even Malekith gets 15% on a dragon. Rework Shield of Aeons too, maybe physical/MD instead 60 armor for 23 seconds in a small AoE is just worthless.

    Also last thing Terradons ammo nerf makes no sense there dps is so low already even using all there ammo unless it's on a 3k lord will barely get there value back. Chams ammo nerf is the obvious one and the one I hear complaining about the most. Although i don't think there OP
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,438
    I think chameleons need the nerf not really terradons so much. Terradons are easy to deal with if you’re prepared for them while chameleons can always be tricky and some factions really struggle with them.

    I do agree about your buffs though, and yeah sacred kroxigors can have the 15% missile resist and don’t really need the nerfs; they’re underperforming right now, except in the VC matchup where I find them to be very strong.
  • YannirYannir Registered Users Posts: 1,455
    Personally, I'd reduce Chameleon Skink Missile Resistance. They don't need that much of it. Doesn't hugely effect Single Player either, unlike an ammo nerf. Which is why I don't like that Terradon suggestion either. They already have too little ammunition.

    Particularly agree with the Ark of Sotek buff. I always thought it should be similar to Flock of Doom.
    Ugh, I have spoken.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,310
    Rubsbish lol, its a 3.6k hp $600 unit that gets wiped by a single wave spell. They have exact same hp as peasant bowman.

    I dont even get why their missile resist is this frikking LOW. They r -2 to hit on table, add in all the goodies skirmish, long range, move and shoot, 40% is a joke, there isnt any unit in the old world that r as impossible to hit as them

    Dmg output doesnt even hit 22k when scouts hit 29k. I think generally its just the players r so low skilled they got owned by those 2-3 ap units. Some r even worse lol they get rekt by 1 ap wolf riders. Its funny how ppl wet themselves on a missile resist when units like seaguards and darkshards r rocking on a 55% block silvershield

    Great news are more cham skinks r coming thru dlc, hopefully they r even half as decent as those overtuned welf/helf dlc units
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  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 639
    Wave spell to counter chams? Wait what
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,438
    hanen said:

    Wave spell to counter chams? Wait what

    A well placed burning head will nuke chameleons pretty hard. Of course you have to actually hit them with it, which if the LM player is microing them well is far easier said than done
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 701
    Missile resist is a big part of their design (chameleons after all). I'd rather nerf their melee stats.
  • AsamuAsamu Registered Users Posts: 1,025
    edited June 15
    Yannir said:

    Personally, I'd reduce Chameleon Skink Missile Resistance. They don't need that much of it. Doesn't hugely effect Single Player either, unlike an ammo nerf. Which is why I don't like that Terradon suggestion either. They already have too little ammunition.

    Particularly agree with the Ark of Sotek buff. I always thought it should be similar to Flock of Doom.

    Eh, Cham skinks don't actually perform that well in shoot-outs because their base HP is so low and they have short range. Gun units, like handgunners, still wreck them.

    They do okay vs archers, especially low accuracy archers, due to their loose formation but tend to actually be better off charging into melee vs infantry missile units than trading with them at range.

    Frankly, Cham Skinks aren't THAT good. They're just decent. I'll give that they're *annoying*, due to being difficult to catch if well controlled and having stalk, but annoying is not the same thing as too strong.
    Regular Skink skirmishers are awful, and don't work properly with skirmish mode because their range is too short.
    Cham skinks are sort of in between missile cav and other infantry skirmishers, with decent ranged output, but way less speed than missile cav, but more speed + poison, but shorter range when compared to other infantry skirmishers like deepwood scouts. They aren't as effectively zoned out by missile infantry as missile cav, but are easier to hunt down with cav/hounds/chariots, while it's wort of the opposite compared to other infantry skirmishers, which often have the range to kite a lot of common missile infantry, but are easier to catch with fast units if left exposed.
    Some missile cav, like marauder horsemasters and Ellyrian reaver archers, can run down cham skinks effectively if you put them on melee mode.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 192
    Chameleon skinks should be absolute paper in melee imo, so nerfs to leadership, MA and MD could be the way to go.

    What annoys me the most is that after they used all their ammo they can still charge into low HP dedicated melee units (e.g. 15% hp) and finish them off, while imo if a unit is that good at skirmishing then they should have no value in melee.

    You regularly see tournament players charging chameleons into arty crews to shut them down but I see no reason why arty crews should lose to them in the first place, if anything arty crews have swords and should be winning that engagement in melee.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,069
    some pretty good suggestions, could be really nice with a recalibration of the roster so all those unused units could see some play, i can think of at least terradons, skinks could maybe use a small buff...its just one of the rosters with most units and fewest that actually see play.

    btw am i the only one wondering just how OP LM will be after DLC? already one of the strongest factions and DLCs almost always increase power ... :open_mouth:
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 658
    ThisIsREM said:

    Chameleon skinks should be absolute paper in melee imo, so nerfs to leadership, MA and MD could be the way to go.

    What annoys me the most is that after they used all their ammo they can still charge into low HP dedicated melee units (e.g. 15% hp) and finish them off, while imo if a unit is that good at skirmishing then they should have no value in melee.

    You regularly see tournament players charging chameleons into arty crews to shut them down but I see no reason why arty crews should lose to them in the first place, if anything arty crews have swords and should be winning that engagement in melee.

    I'm not too shocked by their melee ability tbh.

    To me the main issue (aside poison) is the AP value of their blowdarts. They got 3 AP for 9 base damage and they shoot every 5-ish seconds which is almost twice as fast as archers, so over 2 salvo you got 6 AP which is a lot especially considering that the unit is rather accurate. Add to this the fact that you bring them in mass (4 to 5) and they actually grind armored unit very well at range.
    So a -1 AP +1 base damage swap would help to make the unit a little bit less crazy at times.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?

  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,438
    RawSugar said:


    btw am i the only one wondering just how OP LM will be after DLC? already one of the strongest factions and DLCs almost always increase power ... :open_mouth:

    Except LM have consistently been the exception to this; every dlc they got they’ve either remained the same or become just slightly stronger. Even now their overperforming units are not dlc units they’re from the base roster from the beginning of WH2. Most of their dlc units have just niche uses at best.
  • yukontherunyukontherun Registered Users Posts: 869
    Energyzed said:

    Lets start talking about the elephant on the room. Chamaleons, solar engine and terradons. These 3 units are undeniably good, but i think the only one of them that diserves nerfs are terradons, as they are the unit that has more impact on the battlefield if the oponent is not prepared. For that reason, terradons (600 cost variant) should be nerfed with -3 or -4 ammo.

    Buff suggestions:

    Concentration instincts- This is just a worse version of cold blood. Plenty of games were there is actually no reason to click on this ability. It should grant +5 LD on an AoE.

    Tiqtakto´s blade of ancient skies- Cant insist more on how bad this item is due to how easily air combat can be avoided or if the oponent doesnt bring flyers at all. I think a good idea would be to make the item grant less stats, but Tiqtakto keeps half of the stats when he is on the ground.

    Tehenhauin- Serpents´ tongue blade should be better due to Tehenhauin alredy having poison by default and how prevalent poison alredy is on Lizardmen roster. Either increase AoE to 55m or increase charge bonus buff. Also, -50 cost to stegadon mount.

    Nakai- Give him inmune to psychology, -50 cost and increase duration of primal roar +3 secs.

    Terradon mount for skink chief and skink priests- Give them vanguard deployment for game consistency and because there are arguments to make about it being slightly overpriced.

    Ark of Sotek- I think the diameter of the vortex is quite small taking into consideration how easily enemy units can get out from it and that the Ark has to take some risk diving on enemy lines to place it correctly. So +20% diameter increase on vortex.

    Revivification Crystal and Engine of the Gods- Would be nice if these units didnt stop moving while using their bound abilities or if their cast time was a bit faster.

    Salamanders and Razordons- +8 HP per model. The main problem is how fast they bleed models for their price paired with how microintensive they are because of their range.

    Ancient Salamander- +200 HP.

    Sacred Kroxigors- +2 MD.

    RoR Sacred Kroxigors- +15 % missile resistance, -5% physical resistance and +50 cost.

    Terradons are already a useless unit in campaign, being T3 without armour piercing, just jack up their price, don't take away their little ammo.

    The revivification crystal could be boosted by increasing the ammount it heals but not allowing it to heal single entities.

    The ark of sotek either needs to come earlier into use in campaign or be given a small amount of armour piercing damage to the vortex. The diameter is pretty good if you manage to position it correctly.

    200 hp to ancient salamander doesn't change how useless they're. May as well not buff them than do this and pretend they've been fixed.

    Nakai already has a skill that makes him give terror, is it not available in MP? If so just make it available to buy instead of cluttering him.
    Justice for the scalies!

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  • Lazy_captainLazy_captain Registered Users Posts: 138
    RawSugar said:

    some pretty good suggestions, could be really nice with a recalibration of the roster so all those unused units could see some play, i can think of at least terradons, skinks could maybe use a small buff...its just one of the rosters with most units and fewest that actually see play.

    btw am i the only one wondering just how OP LM will be after DLC? already one of the strongest factions and DLCs almost always increase power ... :open_mouth:

    Bro, tell this to greenskins and skaven. The lizardmen have been stagnant since Prophet and the warlock
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,069
    grenskin and skaven are exactly what worries me, both needed heavy nerfs after their DLCs, GS still havent been nerfed enough - and GS werent very strong before DLC. werent the DLCs for LM a long time ago and havent CA been getting worse with powercreeping recently - in quick battle where you can get that extra laserdon and chameleon i'd argue LM are already vying for most powerful faction
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,162
    I think solardon needs a nerf more than terradon
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,031
    edited June 15
    I dont really get it, you are suggesting mass buffs to the 2nd best roster in the game now, that is also getting DLC, i dont even disagree with most of the suggestions just if you want those than you need to nerf way more than just terradons with some ammo, and i mean way more and take into account DLC coming.

    Nerf
    Poison -5%
    Solars +100g
    Chameleons +50g
    Jav skinks -1AP ranged dmg
    ALL Feral Dinos +100g
    Terradons +50g or remove missile resistance

    those nerfs should help to balance LZM and allow for your stated buffs which i agree with pretty much all as well as the new DLC stuff to ensure we dont have another silly patch with a faction thats clearly OP like GS are now.

  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,069
    those nerfs are way too heavy unless the DLC brings some really good toys.
    OPs buff wont actually make anything strong, just give a few more playable units
    cham +25
    solar +50
    maybe terradon +25
    that would make the units still strong but not OP, +10% like youre suggesting brings them more into the decent territory, they still might see play, especially because there's not much alternative for ranged in the roster but they'd no longer be giving an edge. nerfs that heavy would bring LM to NO level, unless the DLC brings some super strong units to take their place

    and feral dinos defo dont need a nerf
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,031
    edited June 15
    RawSugar said:

    those nerfs are way too heavy unless the DLC brings some really good toys.
    OPs buff wont actually make anything strong, just give a few more playable units
    cham +25
    solar +50
    maybe terradon +25
    that would make the units still strong but not OP, +10% like youre suggesting brings them more into the decent territory, they still might see play, especially because there's not much alternative for ranged in the roster but they'd no longer be giving an edge. nerfs that heavy would bring LM to NO level, unless the DLC brings some super strong units to take their place

    and feral dinos defo dont need a nerf

    No they not, LZM/WE/GS are just way too ahead of other factions rite now and need to be toned town correctly, GS seems like they be getting their nerfs i hope WE's also and if u add the fact LZM are getting a DLC they need big ones also.

    And feral dinos most definitely need a nerf especially feral steg.

    Only than you can consider buffs listed above.

    IF what is written above gets added + the DLC, LZM will be quite a bit more OP than current GS and going to be horrid state of the game.

    I dont get why are people on the forums sleeping on the power level of feral dinos, they been busted ever since coldblooded changed.

    Ohh forgot about -20 ammo on skink chief or +50g
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,069
    there's nothing in the OP that would actually change LM power tangibly, its just UP units becoming decent.
    LM defo need a nerf, and its defo the units you pointed out, but they need about 250 nerf altogether, you're suggesting more like 500, thats in the order of what SK and WE got last time and LM are not at that level imo
    solar and cham can actually survive a 10% nerf but if you want nerfs as big as you suggest you'd need to give them some new very strong units or give small buffs to other strong LM units, like a -25 for sauri

    Dinos are strong, but they're supposed to be , they're a faction strength, they arent broken in any way.
  • Lazy_captainLazy_captain Registered Users Posts: 138

    RawSugar said:

    those nerfs are way too heavy unless the DLC brings some really good toys.
    OPs buff wont actually make anything strong, just give a few more playable units
    cham +25
    solar +50
    maybe terradon +25
    that would make the units still strong but not OP, +10% like youre suggesting brings them more into the decent territory, they still might see play, especially because there's not much alternative for ranged in the roster but they'd no longer be giving an edge. nerfs that heavy would bring LM to NO level, unless the DLC brings some super strong units to take their place

    and feral dinos defo dont need a nerf

    No they not, LZM/WE/GS are just way too ahead of other factions rite now and need to be toned town correctly, GS seems like they be getting their nerfs i hope WE's also and if u add the fact LZM are getting a DLC they need big ones also.

    And feral dinos most definitely need a nerf especially feral steg.

    Only than you can consider buffs listed above.

    IF what is written above gets added + the DLC, LZM will be quite a bit more OP than current GS and going to be horrid state of the game.

    I dont get why are people on the forums sleeping on the power level of feral dinos, they been busted ever since coldblooded changed.

    Ohh forgot about -20 ammo on skink chief or +50g
    lizardmen arent even in top 5
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,718
    Feral Stegadon has always seemed to be a super value to me. So much that it single handedly ushered a new era in infantry-mass interactions :D

    And yes LZM is easily in top 3 right now imo.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 511

    I dont really get it, you are suggesting mass buffs to the 2nd best roster in the game now, that is also getting DLC, i dont even disagree with most of the suggestions just if you want those than you need to nerf way more than just terradons with some ammo, and i mean way more and take into account DLC coming.

    Nerf
    Poison -5%
    Solars +100g
    Chameleons +50g
    Jav skinks -1AP ranged dmg
    ALL Feral Dinos +100g
    Terradons +50g or remove missile resistance

    those nerfs should help to balance LZM and allow for your stated buffs which i agree with pretty much all as well as the new DLC stuff to ensure we dont have another silly patch with a faction thats clearly OP like GS are now.

    Oof talk about gutting a faction. You seem to always over exaggerate the nerfs LZM needs. Like 100+ gold to all feral Dinos is just ridiculous also price nerfs are the worse way to go imo. But seriously in this infantry/skirmish meta you want to nerf all of there skirmish hard and there SEM's that are already nerfed due to the meta.

    I gotta say I will enjoy the coming dominion of Lizardmen over the lesser races/Elfs, we both know none of these nerfs are happening.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,438

    I dont really get it, you are suggesting mass buffs to the 2nd best roster in the game now, that is also getting DLC, i dont even disagree with most of the suggestions just if you want those than you need to nerf way more than just terradons with some ammo, and i mean way more and take into account DLC coming.

    Nerf
    Poison -5%
    Solars +100g
    Chameleons +50g
    Jav skinks -1AP ranged dmg
    ALL Feral Dinos +100g
    Terradons +50g or remove missile resistance

    those nerfs should help to balance LZM and allow for your stated buffs which i agree with pretty much all as well as the new DLC stuff to ensure we dont have another silly patch with a faction thats clearly OP like GS are now.

    Oof talk about gutting a faction. You seem to always over exaggerate the nerfs LZM needs. Like 100+ gold to all feral Dinos is just ridiculous also price nerfs are the worse way to go imo. But seriously in this infantry/skirmish meta you want to nerf all of there skirmish hard and there SEM's that are already nerfed due to the meta.

    I gotta say I will enjoy the coming dominion of Lizardmen over the lesser races/Elfs, we both know none of these nerfs are happening.
    Some of them will I’m sure but most likely not to the extent lotus is suggesting
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,031

    I dont really get it, you are suggesting mass buffs to the 2nd best roster in the game now, that is also getting DLC, i dont even disagree with most of the suggestions just if you want those than you need to nerf way more than just terradons with some ammo, and i mean way more and take into account DLC coming.

    Nerf
    Poison -5%
    Solars +100g
    Chameleons +50g
    Jav skinks -1AP ranged dmg
    ALL Feral Dinos +100g
    Terradons +50g or remove missile resistance

    those nerfs should help to balance LZM and allow for your stated buffs which i agree with pretty much all as well as the new DLC stuff to ensure we dont have another silly patch with a faction thats clearly OP like GS are now.

    we both know none of these nerfs are happening.
    looking forward to quoting this, i strongly feel this is the way along with ofcourse buffs to Asally, salamanders maybe reptildactils and few others mentioned above, along with getting the DLC. Should allow LZM to be top tier but balanced, and not absurd liek the OP is trying to do with -3ammo nerf to terradons while getting DLC and 10+ buffs.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 511

    I dont really get it, you are suggesting mass buffs to the 2nd best roster in the game now, that is also getting DLC, i dont even disagree with most of the suggestions just if you want those than you need to nerf way more than just terradons with some ammo, and i mean way more and take into account DLC coming.

    Nerf
    Poison -5%
    Solars +100g
    Chameleons +50g
    Jav skinks -1AP ranged dmg
    ALL Feral Dinos +100g
    Terradons +50g or remove missile resistance

    those nerfs should help to balance LZM and allow for your stated buffs which i agree with pretty much all as well as the new DLC stuff to ensure we dont have another silly patch with a faction thats clearly OP like GS are now.

    we both know none of these nerfs are happening.
    looking forward to quoting this, i strongly feel this is the way along with ofcourse buffs to Asally, salamanders maybe reptildactils and few others mentioned above, along with getting the DLC. Should allow LZM to be top tier but balanced, and not absurd liek the OP is trying to do with -3ammo nerf to terradons while getting DLC and 10+ buffs.
    I say it all the time. LZM even with DLC never get big balancing changes and they have a lot of up units that could use buffs, but each patch we see LZM being carried by the same units they have been since the beginning of the game.

    I talk with Lizard mains around the community all the time and i would bet most don't think LZM are getting nerfed in the new DLC. lol just look at the last DLC's, CA doesn't nerf a faction getting DLC regardless of how OP or not they are.

    Im guessing they do what they did with WE DLC -50 gold for Glade Guard = -50 gold for chameleon skinks :p

    Also they did nerf solars, terra's, and chams in the twisted in the twilight and i think they are strong units but not OP. See them get nerfed again in a Lizard DLC seems very unlikely. Pretty sure you said months ago GS was getting nerfed but they got passed up in the last balance patch too so your track record seems to be disagreeing with you at the moment.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 433

    not absurd liek the OP is trying to do with -3ammo nerf to terradons while getting DLC and 10+ buffs.

    Actually im pretty sure -3 ammo on terradons has the same impact on lizardmen powerlevel than all the buffs i listed all together, with the exception of the buff on razordons and salamanders HP. But hey, lets not give a small buff to garbage abilities and mediocre units because lizarmen are good at dealing with kite and chamaleons are anoying...

    One thing i didnt mentioned, which i completly agree with you, is that poison is currently too good. So -5% on all the poison effects and there you got another decent nerf that impacts lizardmen more than any other faction.

  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 225
    Lizardmen are one of the best factions and overall buffing the faction, when they're receiving a dlc, is a bad idea.
    I agree with @Lotus_Moon for the nerfs:
    -Cham Skinks
    -Solar engine
    -Terradons
    the three mains offenders.

    After the nerfs some buffs to weaker units are warranted:
    +Nakai
    +Tehenhauin
    +Ark of Sotek
    +EoG needs a faster cast time
    +Kroxigors
    +Salamanders
    +Razordons

    Another thing I want to mention is that no one talks about how good Mazdamundi is but Morathi is op for some reason? If Morathi is OP, Mazda is outright broken. I have never been unhappy when bringing Mazda into a battle.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 511
    vizaresh said:



    Another thing I want to mention is that no one talks about how good Mazdamundi is but Morathi is op for some reason? If Morathi is OP, Mazda is outright broken. I have never been unhappy when bringing Mazda into a battle.

    I would say similar levels of OP but Morathi is a lot cheaper with her kit and i see her a lot of the time out value Mazda by a good bit
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