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Judging something with lack of info

AkirooxAkiroox Registered Users Posts: 31
Last couple of days were a river of hate and blame because of the Kislev and Khorne roster reveals with people claiming they won't buy the game (but they will) and i've asked myself why.

The roster:

We've seen them, we know they are small, we know some units are missing but we complain. Why? Didn't we take the exact same route 2 times already? Did WH1 bring full roster factions? Did WH2 do it? No. "We did get more units" some will say but i will gladly take a smaller roster with unique units rather than 3 variants of archers that i'll never use.
The big issue that in think caused this complain is that people compare the new races of WH3 with reworked and improved races from previous games that needed several years and DLC's to get to what they are today.
People complaining also fail to see that we will get 6 core factions which means 50% more content on day 1. Just wait and with time and DLC's we will get other mounts for Kislev or Marauders for Khorne just like we got missing units for previous races.

"I will not buy this game"

Ok. It's your money, nobody forces you but you make an decision based on what? 2 rosters? How can someone decide if it's worth it or not when at this point we don't have: gameplay footage, campaign map, game mechanics, all other roster revealed. Heck, we don't even know the launch date!

People, you enjoyed WH1 & WH2. You spent hundreds or thousands of hours in them and suddently you reject game 3 and i ask again: Based on what?

Comments

  • PedePede Registered Users Posts: 1,095
    River of hate. Very fitting for the Khorne reveal.
  • Man2008kindMan2008kind Bucharest, RomaniaRegistered Users Posts: 1,819
    After a bit of math, I came to the conclusion that if the other 4 races have the same roster size as Khorne (23×5=115) and add Kislev's roster (115+25=140), WH3 will have 19 more units than WH2 (140-121=19). Add to that the fact that WH2's unit roster's were filled with pointless variants (roughly 1/4 of the Skaven's roster were normal Skaven infantry with different types of armour), wheras game 3's roster seems to have the big majority of units as unique rather than variants, and I fail to see the problem (I even excluded the pre-order bonus and Bel'akor's race).
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,863
    People are allowed to make their own decisions based on whatever they feel like.

    It's their hard earned money. I don't care what they do with it. As long as they're respectful it's'all good.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

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  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 1,572

    After a bit of math, I came to the conclusion that if the other 4 races have the same roster size as Khorne (23×5=115) and add Kislev's roster (115+25=140), WH3 will have 19 more units than WH2 (140-121=19). Add to that the fact that WH2's unit roster's were filled with pointless variants (roughly 1/4 of the Skaven's roster were normal Skaven infantry with different types of armour), wheras game 3's roster seems to have the big majority of units as unique rather than variants, and I fail to see the problem (I even excluded the pre-order bonus and Bel'akor's race).

    19 more units is just a 15% increase. I think that there were/are those that expected 6 races to equal a 50% increase in the number of units, particularly when CA made talked at lenght about how this was their largest game yet made with the biggest budget they have ever had.

    And when you break down the rosters it looks like we are not even getting a 15% increase across the board. WH2 had 4x3 heroes, WH3 seems to go with 6x2 i.e both end up with 12. IIRC at least some WH1 races started out with even more heroes, Empire had 4 or 6 depending on wether you count the unique caster models seperately.

    Now personally I would rather have lean and mean Kislev style rosters than bloated with pointless variants but I'll admitt that the reduction in the number of heroes does bug me a bit. It feels very much like content is being held for use as DLC as we for the first time see a reduction of the abilties a faction will have. For example I can play Kislev with a melee lord and a caster hero but not with a caster lord and a melee hero. And there is no way the Frost Maiden and Patriarch can cover the needed functions on the campaign layer. To me this seems like a step backward and makes the races even more dependent on DLC.
  • SusaVileSusaVile Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 777
    People can either decide to purchase the game, or not. For me, stating why you will do one or another, is fine, but forcing the influence on others or being rude to others because of their decision is ridiculous.

    There is indeed a trend of companies selling DLC later on, and CA certainly does that, but again, you are not forced to purchase it. Now, this goes once more into the "DLC discussion". This has been discussed at eternum. In my view we are as responsible for that as the companies. We keep buying the DLC, and for me, I will keep buying whatever I wish. I understand there are jobs to secure, employees to pay, bills to pay, etc. Games still cost about what they did 20 years ago at launch, despite costing a lot more in development. But, again, my view on it. I have literally seen people saying that they considered me to consume without thinking, and I was annoyed at that. I certainly am not consuming without thinking. I have measured the costs and benefit and made my decision. Just because it is not your decision, does not make it wrong, only different.

    Sure, you can demand for the whole content to be there in the first place, but then you would have no content for a long time, which would then be a problem for those who only like the games that are trending and with new stuff all the time... you see the issue? It is often a decision if who to please, and we are not the ones with the numbers.

    Maybe in your case you wanted to see this or that at launch. Sorry if it did not happen. Again, no one forces you to buy it, but... maybe that is not the problem. Maybe the problem is this is an opportunity, of you playing a very unique game within the fantasy world that you enjoy so much, and if it fails your expectation, there is no alternative. I understand that. However, you can elaborate on that and provide your opinion, being constructive, polite. And, remember, the best way a developer has to assist in your own unique desired experience is to provide mod support. Which they do, happily.

    Those arguing in the forums and other places are a minority, a small portion. You are entitled to your opinion, to buying the product or not... as much as anyone else. Chances are, they are also a part of those will still complaint about a game after hundreds of hours into it (lol). Unfortunately, constructive criticism and polite opinion has been thrown away, and rudeness is now the norm.

    I have literally seen people say that they have to be rude in order to squeeze info from the company. Instead, you could perhaps just be patient. The person stated they harass (literally) CA people just to get some info, possibly forgetting how these employees have non-disclosure agreements and have to be constantly trained on avoiding undisclosed information, with good reason. Hey, if I was the lead project designer or someone in charge, I would like to have the control over which info goes out or not, as in, it is my name there, my responsibility. But it is so easy saying "CA this, CA that" and forgetting the human side, these are people at work... let them work. They have not failed us so far, like the OP stated.

    You want more info before you pre-order? Fine. Wait for it.

    The only thing i hate is how the forum gets filled with the same posts regarding CA marketing and lack of info and complaints complaints, and I see very little in terms of changes and additions they would like to see in the games. Instead of giving ideas and collaborating on a development stage... well, rant over, ty for reading.
    Always learning, be polite, unless he's the enemy:P
    Cheers
    SusaVile
    Total war youtuber
  • cabans33cabans33 Registered Users Posts: 553
    This time besides the common haters there are also other people expressing their concern.

    For me this is because of the awfull marketing campaign done by masters degree. Hyping things for 3 weeks to show nothing new compared to week one and also showing thin rosters the first together with final boss battles which are not bad but either are not impressive.

    Yes they have a master degree but they failed the most important principle in marketing.... To perfectly know the product you are selling and your customer, and these people failed in that.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,687
    cabans33 said:

    This time besides the common haters there are also other people expressing their concern.

    how quaint a phrasing "this time..."

    Many of us who have been called "haters" have expressed our concern and tried to raise major points... which often were rejected with "BUT COOL!" or "IF YOU DON'T WANT THAT, NO MATTER YOUR REASONING, YOU'RE JUST A HATER AND WANT IT TO SUCK!" and a lot of straw.
    #RIP BORIS! KILLED BY CA AND GW WITH SHORTSIGHTED CRUELTY JUST TO SHOVE KOSTALTYN DOWN OUR THROATS!

    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • SusaVileSusaVile Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 777

    cabans33 said:

    This time besides the common haters there are also other people expressing their concern.

    how quaint a phrasing "this time..."

    Many of us who have been called "haters" have expressed our concern and tried to raise major points... which often were rejected with "BUT COOL!" or "IF YOU DON'T WANT THAT, NO MATTER YOUR REASONING, YOU'RE JUST A HATER AND WANT IT TO SUCK!" and a lot of straw.
    You are not a hater for your opinion being different. You are a hater regarding how you provide that opinion, your phrasing (and in a vocal conversation, your speech). If you can remain logical and provide constructive and assertive feedback, no one should dismiss your arguments as being simply the result of your emotions.

    Now, not everyone that is branded as a "hater" is one, and not everyone that is branded as a "fanboy" is one either; our opinion should not limit us to one or another, and we should be fine in changing, retracting and rephrasing our opinions whenever new developments and arguments come up.

    The biggest issue (and strangest, in my opinion) is the blaming game that happens next. Blaming the state of the game, based on the opinions of a person about it, is quite narrow in my viewpoint, and only leads to a toxic environment. We provide feedback and that can cause changes to the game, indeed, but I believe it to be overated, we do not influence it that much.
    Always learning, be polite, unless he's the enemy:P
    Cheers
    SusaVile
    Total war youtuber
  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 4,789
    edited June 18

    cabans33 said:

    This time besides the common haters there are also other people expressing their concern.

    how quaint a phrasing "this time..."

    Many of us who have been called "haters" have expressed our concern and tried to raise major points... which often were rejected with "BUT COOL!" or "IF YOU DON'T WANT THAT, NO MATTER YOUR REASONING, YOU'RE JUST A HATER AND WANT IT TO SUCK!" and a lot of straw.
    I'm sure the frequent rants and infrequent use of all caps has helped you express your point. Surely it could only make whatever points you think you raised more intelligent, and not appear like the ravings of an ill informed fanatic taking the dissonance between the product and your imagination personally.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,687
    Helhound said:

    cabans33 said:

    This time besides the common haters there are also other people expressing their concern.

    how quaint a phrasing "this time..."

    Many of us who have been called "haters" have expressed our concern and tried to raise major points... which often were rejected with "BUT COOL!" or "IF YOU DON'T WANT THAT, NO MATTER YOUR REASONING, YOU'RE JUST A HATER AND WANT IT TO SUCK!" and a lot of straw.
    I'm sure the frequent rants and infrequent use of all caps has helped you express your point. Surely it could only make whatever points you think you raised more intelligent, and not appear like the ravings of an ill informed fanatic taking the dissonance between the product and your imagination personally.
    oh yeah, but, if i wanted to dig out the "Monogods need AoS!!!" stuff, clearly the whole "No, we need all the AoS stuff, otherwise all we get is a different colour filter and that is what you want because

    AND, believe it or not, CAPITALISED WORDS, can be used JUST FOR EMPHASIS. Sometimes I don't like to use fat letters.

    If you just go "Look! There is caps! That's just raving!" That's on you. That's on you either applying cliche or just you are just a SOFT SPOKEN ill informed fanatic.



    And for SusaVile. I can be cynical and quite aggressive in phrasing while still raising more valid points than quite a few of hte defense brigade. And that's a fact. Like for example "I think the Ice Witches should have sleds. "No! Bears are fine because cool! And because hybrid! that totally couldn't be done wiht an ice sled, so bears are necessary!!!"
    #RIP BORIS! KILLED BY CA AND GW WITH SHORTSIGHTED CRUELTY JUST TO SHOVE KOSTALTYN DOWN OUR THROATS!

    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • hendo1592hendo1592 Registered Users Posts: 2,707
    KN_Gars said:

    After a bit of math, I came to the conclusion that if the other 4 races have the same roster size as Khorne (23×5=115) and add Kislev's roster (115+25=140), WH3 will have 19 more units than WH2 (140-121=19). Add to that the fact that WH2's unit roster's were filled with pointless variants (roughly 1/4 of the Skaven's roster were normal Skaven infantry with different types of armour), wheras game 3's roster seems to have the big majority of units as unique rather than variants, and I fail to see the problem (I even excluded the pre-order bonus and Bel'akor's race).

    19 more units is just a 15% increase. I think that there were/are those that expected 6 races to equal a 50% increase in the number of units, particularly when CA made talked at lenght about how this was their largest game yet made with the biggest budget they have ever had.

    And when you break down the rosters it looks like we are not even getting a 15% increase across the board. WH2 had 4x3 heroes, WH3 seems to go with 6x2 i.e both end up with 12. IIRC at least some WH1 races started out with even more heroes, Empire had 4 or 6 depending on wether you count the unique caster models seperately.

    Now personally I would rather have lean and mean Kislev style rosters than bloated with pointless variants but I'll admitt that the reduction in the number of heroes does bug me a bit. It feels very much like content is being held for use as DLC as we for the first time see a reduction of the abilties a faction will have. For example I can play Kislev with a melee lord and a caster hero but not with a caster lord and a melee hero. And there is no way the Frost Maiden and Patriarch can cover the needed functions on the campaign layer. To me this seems like a step backward and makes the races even more dependent on DLC.
    So basically, CA had success with games 1 & 2, and we should share in that success. So are people upset because we aren't getting a big enough piece of that success?

    If people thought they would get a 50% increase in content for the same price, I guess you set yourself up for failure. Is this the same crowd that thinks we should get a $20 campaign pack for free when it's always been content later sold for $9?

    That's not really how these things work. In most places, the workers don't share the companies success- you think customers should?

    We are going to end up getting more content. We will end up getting more and or larger FLC (the combined map for TWW3 has to be bigger, right?).

    We’ve seen an interview where the TWW3 map is going to be larger than the vortex. We are getting more content. That's just factual information. Suppose it's not distributed to your liking fair enough. Imo the way we “share” in CA success is for them to continue supporting the series through DLC and FLC. We are consumers, after all. I suggest looking at it holistically rather than piecemeal.
  • SusaVileSusaVile Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 777
    edited June 19
    Had to delete this comment as it did not appeared before for me, and I do not wish to spam the room
    Post edited by SusaVile on
    Always learning, be polite, unless he's the enemy:P
    Cheers
    SusaVile
    Total war youtuber
  • SusaVileSusaVile Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 777


    And for SusaVile. I can be cynical and quite aggressive in phrasing while still raising more valid points than quite a few of hte defense brigade. And that's a fact. Like for example "I think the Ice Witches should have sleds. "No! Bears are fine because cool! And because hybrid! that totally couldn't be done wiht an ice sled, so bears are necessary!!!"

    You are missing the point. Your argument that Ice Witches should have sleds is quite a valid argument, if you mean that it should provide more variety to the choices of hero/lord mounts. And, I agree with it. But, being aggressive and cynical while raising it does not add to the argument, it actually withdraws from it.

    In other words, either your argument speaks by itself, or it does not. The same goes towards arguments countering it.

    Now, I was not the only one with the genuine impression that whoever accused you of being a hater had possible reasons for it, and instead of disproving it, you have been giving more evidence of it. I do not wish for this argument to go personal, nor to attack you as a person, only to perhaps assist you in your ability to provide feedback for the game we will both enjoy (hopefully). I would welcome any discussion with you regarding the aspects from the game that you would like to see, changes, etc.
    Always learning, be polite, unless he's the enemy:P
    Cheers
    SusaVile
    Total war youtuber
  • hendo1592hendo1592 Registered Users Posts: 2,707
    edited June 18
    I'm sure some see me as blindly supporting the game and discrediting people's concerns; however, I encourage constructive criticism presented without hyperbole. It just waters down your concern and most likely won't get the same (proper) attention it may deserve.

    Also, it doesn't help that criticisms are peppered with insults towards those that might not be as disgruntled (or at all). Then it turns into customers arguing with each other instead of presenting constructive criticism respectfully. It's hard enough to get a change or a changed approach; why add an unnecessary obstacle?
  • VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 1,217

    People are allowed to make their own decisions based on whatever they feel like.

    It's their hard earned money. I don't care what they do with it. As long as they're respectful it's'all good.

    I actually bursted out laughing seeing a disagree towards that statement.

    I have to echo the sentiment. As towards the "outrage" people have some valid points among the vitriol. Trying to blanket statement that things are okay and people are just being unreasonable buries honest criticism with it.

    It's the internet, there are always going to be overblown opinions and outrage, justified or not.

    I honestly find it more annoying personally seeing so many posts trying to tell other posters how they should be managing themselves. I'm certain it's well intentioned but it's always patronizing or condescending. I think it's more often about the posters ego than trying to actually settle the environment. "Look how mature I am, telling people on the internet how they should behave." I don't know you well enough to say if that applies to you, you seem reasonable.

    Just learn to relax. Enjoy the ride. Don't go poking hornets nests and the ridiculous outrage will tire itself out. Posts like this only tend to fan the flames, not douse them.
  • MODIDDLY1MODIDDLY1 Registered Users Posts: 597
    Kislev roster is fine to me, but the Khorne roster is more like the Skaven starting roster over the Empire. One was a hacked up roster that felt janky and clearly missing core things it needed to function, and the other felt like a roster that could stand on it's own, while still having room to add new units later for other playstyles and tactics.

    With Khorne having no early game infantry, the early game feels like it will consist of kiting and harassing with hounds and furies rather than bulldozing over enemies with superior units, and no chosen feels like they will lose late game encounters against other elite infantry, because there only high tier infantry are glass cannons.
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