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People are getting angry at Mass Effects day 1 DLC

MrBoBo1MrBoBo1 Senior MemberPosts: 441Registered Users
edited March 2012 in Total War: Shogun 2
Why aren't we getting angry about Shogun 2: FOTS cutting 3 of the 9 clans out? Seems to be content taken out under the guise of a bonus.
Post edited by MrBoBo1 on
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  • yoshisukeyoshisuke Senior Member Posts: 277Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    There's thread in wich people (including me) complained a lot about that. And it was pretty useless.
    There's also an official thread on the subject here : http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/31628-Official-Comment-on-Pre-Order-exclusives-and-DLCs

    So your thread will most likely be closed soon.
  • FeudFeud Member Posts: 51Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    MrBoBo1 wrote: »
    Why aren't we getting angry about Shogun 2: FOTS cutting 3 of the 9 clans out? Seems to be content taken out under the guise of a bonus.

    Some models of my truck have four wheel drive, mine does not. Some models of my truck do not have a cd player in them, mine does.

    It is perfectly normal for different models of the same product to be different, be it something simple such as the color or something more substantive like features or upgrades. I have no problem with CA or Sega offering bonuses to those who want to pre-order or buy from a given retailor. Doing so is benificial to the company, and so they reward such behavior.

    The content is only "cut out" if it was advertised as being included generally and then removed. They don't owe you or me or anyone else anythign they did not tell you was included in the package. Premium content is exactly that, a bonus. Assuming that they should give you that bonus without meeting whatever standards they set to obtain it is silly. We aren't entitled to it, unless they offered it as a condition of the sale.
  • Leonardo DavinciLeonardo Davinci Member Posts: 36Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    i think i saw a post from CA where they said that it was NOT cut out factions. they said to have created 3 new playable clans instead of taking out 3. don't know where they said it though.
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  • TheGermanTheGerman Senior Member Posts: 121Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Then its like dangling something in our face we can never have either way there is 3 more that unless you preorder them you will not receive.
  • NaishoNaisho Senior Member USAPosts: 3,375Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    that is not totally true, they may offer the pre-order specific factions as DLC later on. If the Hattori are anything to shake a stick at then yes we will get them.
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  • MakeNineMakeNine Senior Member Posts: 270Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Well, the bonus clans are not vital to the game, unlike the ME3 DLC which contains a character that is central the entire storyline of the series. Not to mention the fact that to obtain this character you have to pay 20$ more on a special digital deluxe edition.

    Imagine if only those who preordered FoTS at 20$ extra got access to foreign advisers or ironclad ships for example.
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  • RewjeoRewjeo Senior Member Posts: 101Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Except features on a truck take much more time/energy to add on than enabling those three clans. In fact, I'd guess it took CA more energy to set them up to be unlocked with special codes than it would for them to just be unlocked from the start.

    If CA added them before the game came out and they're fully functional, why not include them in the regular version?
  • easytargeteasytarget Senior Member Posts: 2,338Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Game companies are taking thier own characters hostage and demanding ransom.

    Man, where is cable in all this? Or televised sports?

    This could be a gold mine for them. Digitally remove key characters or players and then charge extra to unscramble them.

    You can micro-monetize anything that's digital. ;)
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  • FeudFeud Member Posts: 51Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Rewjeo wrote: »
    Except features on a truck take much more time/energy to add on than enabling those three clans. In fact, I'd guess it took CA more energy to set them up to be unlocked with special codes than it would for them to just be unlocked from the start.

    If CA added them before the game came out and they're fully functional, why not include them in the regular version?

    Because they are a bonus that is being offered to encourage and reward a given behavior.

    If you wait a month after the game has been out, seen the reviews and such, then buy the game, they get money and you get the game. Both parties win. But pre-ordering is an act of faith, it's trusting the company to produce something that you will enjoy and committing to purchase it regardless of what that result is. Those sales benifit the company, as it improves their ability to market the product and it ensures a revenue source. In this case, since the buyer is demonstrating trust in the company the company has decided to encourage and reward that trust with additional content. If they included the exclusive content in all versions, regardless of when it was purchased, then it's no longer rewards those who trusted CA by pre-ordering.

    Whether it took them more time, energy, or money to restrict that content, and whether they could include it for free to all, is irrelevant. It has taken them time, money, and resources to produce that content, and it is theirs to distribute in a manner that they feel is appropriate.

    If they promised it in the game for all, and it was then removed, then complain all you want. If they promised it in a pre-order, then refused to give it, complain all you want. That would be dishonest of them and unethical. But there is nothing unethical about a company offering additional services to those who contribute extraordinarily in their consumption, and complaining that they aren't giving you more for free simply because they could is a bit pathetic.
  • MrBoBo1MrBoBo1 Senior Member Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    easytarget wrote: »
    Game companies are taking thier own characters hostage and demanding ransom.

    Man, where is cable in all this? Or televised sports?

    This could be a gold mine for them. Digitally remove key characters or players and then charge extra to unscramble them.

    You can micro-monetize anything that's digital. ;)

    The greed in gaming now is just staggering. I blame consoles, pc gaming didn't really have any of this until consoles become online. Now what people are paying for, are essentially mods. Console gaming now, I mostly can't be doing with, it's ruined alot of the greatness of pc gaming (as have filthy pirates).
  • MrBoBo1MrBoBo1 Senior Member Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Feud wrote: »
    and complaining that they aren't giving you more for free simply because they could is a bit pathetic.

    Why is it pathetic? As a customer, you are well within your right to demand value.
    Sega are interested in lowering customer value, I have seen this myself with the steam sale. They upped the price to £39.99 (from £29.99) days before a 60% off steam sale. After the sale was finished it was dropped to £29.99 again, standard price. That to me is the sign of a scummy company, one that will quite happily lower customer value for personal gain. Practically every company will get away with something like this if they can. If people actually said "i'm not buying this" (which will never ever happen) then the attitude would change as money is all they care about. We are the ones who provide food on the table. Companys are more than happy to abuse that trust. Mostly thanks to console gamers.
  • FeudFeud Member Posts: 51Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    MrBoBo1 wrote: »
    Why is it pathetic? As a customer, you are well within your right to demand value.

    Certainly, you are well within your right to demand value. But demanding premium content, for free, by suggesting that they are somehow obligated to do so shows one to be spoiled, ungrateful, entitled, and childish. Such behavior is pathetic.
    MrBoBo1 wrote: »
    Sega are interested in lowering customer value, I have seen this myself with the steam sale. They upped the price to £39.99 (from £29.99) days before a 60% off steam sale. After the sale was finished it was dropped to £29.99 again, standard price. That to me is the sign of a scummy company, one that will quite happily lower customer value for personal gain.

    What you just cited is an issue with a distributor, not the developer or producer. It has nothing to do with content.
  • MrBoBo1MrBoBo1 Senior Member Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Feud wrote: »
    Certainly, you are well within your right to demand value

    Of course I am.
    Feud wrote: »
    But demanding premium content, for free

    The content is supposedly free. And I wouldn't exactly use the term "premium" to make it acceptable.
    When you say "premium" your saying content that has been developed in mind, at or around the same time of the main development and with-held at launch and months after release, to be resold, giving the perception to users this is fresh content, which in fact, it isn't, it's content that existed on launch. And getting angry at that makes you pathetic and spoilt? Really? I don't agree at all. In fact being aware and actively trying to do something about it makes you not ignorant in my opinion as well as defending consumers.


    Something we didn't bring up was the issue of multiplayer. The content is chopped up without the ability other than buying the entire game again to get the (most likely) withheld content and no guarantee of it being sold down the road. And at that, used in multiplayer possibly giving special advantage to specific players such as certian abilities. With steam accounts linked to a single account, re-buying the entire game again may not be an option either. So pay to win without the possibly option of getting to pay in the first place.


    Feud wrote: »
    by suggesting that they are somehow obligated to do so shows one to be spoiled, ungrateful, entitled, and childish. Such behavior is pathetic.

    What I suggest was that we were are not obligated to purchase the product. Which, regardless of what derogratory terms you want to throw out, would make them obligated as we (as in you and me) would be the dictators, as money is the driving force and the exact reason they do this sort of thing. Unfortunately people do not care, about anything. Which is why the monopoly of gaming has absolutely no limits to speak off.

    Feud wrote: »
    What you just cited is an issue with a distributor

    The distributor "steam" does not set the price. The publisher does. Which is why I specifically cited "sega" and not "the creative assembly". And it does have to do with content, specifically the user, not getting it. which is down to Sega as far as i'm aware and not the creative assembly.
  • FlaminiusFlaminius Senior Member Posts: 147Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I'd be very happy if they released the bonus/exclusive clans as a DLC sometime after the game goes live :)
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  • RewjeoRewjeo Senior Member Posts: 101Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    It's childish to ask that you get more for your money? Isn't that what CA is doing here? Putting in the same amount of money as it would take to include the clans but asking to get more in return for it?

    To be honest, these clans being kept as preorder doesn't bother me that much. This is a game about civil war- the different factions won't be that different. This isn't a whole lot of content, but the idea of it and where it could lead (for instance, Mass Effect basically requiring the paid DLC) bothers me, although I would be surprised to see CA doing something more than a small reward for preorderers. What really bothers me that I'm seeing, though, is the idea that we should just take what we're given and not ask for more or complain.

    Edit: Also, the reasons CA has given in their official thread satisfy me further.
  • HumbleServantHumbleServant Senior Member Posts: 137Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I think it is a very difficult topic we're talking about. On the one hand I can understand why CA/SEGA/retailer think that they need some sort of "incentive". Even different incentives for each retailer. On the other hand I can understand people getting angry about this too.

    The best solution would probably be if they would only create incentives which don't change the conent of the game (no units, factions, etc.) and more things like the soundtrack and so on. Then nobody would feel like being ripped of, but I guess this will never happen. The more vital the incentives are the more money they can make.

    A good solution would be if the pre-order incentives weren't different. This would give us customers the feeling that we can really decide what we get (because we want it or not).

    The worst situation is the one we have now. We simply don't know whether we will have the chance to get these ("premium") factions after the release as DLC or not. We don't even know if they're worth to pre-order FotS.
    But there is one thing that makes even me angry. If I pre-order a game I pay the highest prize there is and I get an "incentive" because I decided to buy it even before release. But if the "incentives" get released afterwards WHY did I buy it for the highest prize in the first place. A simple time advantage is no advantage for me.
    Btw I pre-ordered Shogun 2 bought the DLCs and I realised in the end that other people can get all of this just for the money I payed for Shogun 2 without the DLCs.

    Maybe a conclusion by all this could be that for pre-ordering you get a prize-decrease for all DLCs which'll be released later (some sort of code/coupon). So there won't be any content which you can't get. Or you slightly smaller prize-decrease and the system of today with an incentive (but it has to be sure that all incentives become released as DLC!).

    What do you guys think about this?
  • justyhawkjustyhawk Senior Member Posts: 455Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Isn't it entirely possible that if it wasn't for pre-order incentives that the 3 clans in question wouldn't have been developed in the first place?

    I agree with your idea humbleservant, a slight price decrease would be very fair. Probably too fair!
  • RewjeoRewjeo Senior Member Posts: 101Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    justyhawk wrote: »
    Isn't it entirely possible that if it wasn't for pre-order incentives that the 3 clans in question wouldn't have been developed in the first place?
    CA said that was the case.
  • Jungle RhinoJungle Rhino Senior Member Posts: 287Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Feud wrote: »
    Because they are a bonus that is being offered to encourage and reward a given behavior.

    If you wait a month after the game has been out, seen the reviews and such, then buy the game, they get money and you get the game. Both parties win. But pre-ordering is an act of faith, it's trusting the company to produce something that you will enjoy and committing to purchase it regardless of what that result is. Those sales benifit the company, as it improves their ability to market the product and it ensures a revenue source. In this case, since the buyer is demonstrating trust in the company the company has decided to encourage and reward that trust with additional content. If they included the exclusive content in all versions, regardless of when it was purchased, then it's no longer rewards those who trusted CA by pre-ordering.

    Whether it took them more time, energy, or money to restrict that content, and whether they could include it for free to all, is irrelevant. It has taken them time, money, and resources to produce that content, and it is theirs to distribute in a manner that they feel is appropriate.

    If they promised it in the game for all, and it was then removed, then complain all you want. If they promised it in a pre-order, then refused to give it, complain all you want. That would be dishonest of them and unethical. But there is nothing unethical about a company offering additional services to those who contribute extraordinarily in their consumption, and complaining that they aren't giving you more for free simply because they could is a bit pathetic.

    This has nothing to do with pre-orders and customers or faith in the happy fairy of happiness. It is CA getting bent over by their distributors who are demanding exclusive content to sell the game for them. I would HAPPILY pay an extra $10 for access to ALL the pre-order content (i.e. through a premium edition). But I can't. The reason I can't is because CA is not allowed to sell this to me because then their distributors would no longer have any exclusivity.

    So from my perspective CA is LOSING revenue from this arrangement - because I'm pretty darn sure most of the other STW2 fans like myself would happily pay an extra $10 for some limited edition all faction bundle with a ****py pewter katana (you know you want one).

    As a result, I'm not pre-ordering, and buying on release. :)
  • Colonel MallardColonel Mallard Senior Member Posts: 1,044Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    See, getting the dlc for this clan doesn't put the clan in the game as such, it only allows you to play it. Play as the Ikko Ikki, and the Hattori will be there, with or without dlc. So to create this dlc, what was involved was more or less a. making faction intro, defeat and victory videos, and b. Moving the clan from the list of unplayable factions, to the list of playable ones, and giving it some bonus (like with the Obama, 1+ to repression). Then, they only give it to people who preorder for some length of time, then they let everybody else (for the hattori, 8 months). I really don't like this, but I understand that perhaps this sort of thing is more retailers or SEGA, an I'm still preordering, because I would be crazy to deny myself a free bonus, on a principle so few people are invested in it would have no effect.
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  • MikeBMikeB The Creative Assembly Posts: 332Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    MrBoBo1 wrote: »
    Why aren't we getting angry about Shogun 2: FOTS cutting 3 of the 9 clans out? Seems to be content taken out under the guise of a bonus.

    I'm not entirely sorry about raining on your parade on this one.

    As one of the people who creates the game content I can tell you that we didn't "cut" anything from the original list of content.

    The requirement for three additional clans turned up and made my schedule look all untidy when it should have been approaching a nicely completed, tidy sort of condition. They were extras, not inherent in the original design.

  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 12,311Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    The incentive seems pretty simple:

    -Pre-order now and get the bonus from whatever edition you chose*
    -Don't pre-order and buy the game without any bonus clans*
    -Don't buy at all.

    *Considering what happened to the Hattori, it is fair to say there is a reliably probability that the other clans you did not choose would be available later on anyways.

    As to the argument of the legitimacy of DLCs, business dictates that whoever makes the product decide how much it is sold and what is sold.

    The incentive here is access to exclusive content. If you miss out, though luck...until Steam releases them as DLC. Which isn't a bad idea at all; consumers eventually get what the wanted, the producers gain a few more coin. I didn't feel robbed when I spent $1.63 US on the Hattori and the Blood DLCs.
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  • Tropical StormTropical Storm Junior Member Posts: 16Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Simple answer: dont buy it. At least, dont buy it now. A few months later they will release these clans as DLC for one buck.
  • RumpullpusRumpullpus Senior Member Posts: 1,216Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    daelin4 wrote: »
    The incentive here is access to exclusive content. If you miss out, though luck...until Steam releases them as DLC. Which isn't a bad idea at all; consumers eventually get what the wanted, the producers gain a few more coin. I didn't feel robbed when I spent $1.63 US on the Hattori and the Blood DLCs.

    funny nether did i when i bought all the DLC for shogun2. IMHO CA has priced all their DLC very well and honestly thats what ive always hated about DLC from other devs. other companies ( EA for example) charge 10$ for a fancy skin on a gun or a single mission that a modder could have made in one weekend for free. its thoses DLCs i got a problem with.
  • SchepelSchepel Senior Member Posts: 1,283Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Rumpullpus wrote: »
    funny nether did i when i bought all the DLC for shogun2. IMHO CA has priced all their DLC very well and honestly thats what ive always hated about DLC from other devs. other companies ( EA for example) charge 10$ for a fancy skin on a gun or a single mission that a modder could have made in one weekend for free. its thoses DLCs i got a problem with.

    I think you vastly underestimate the amount of work that goes into stuff like that, but otherwise: I agree. You get great value for money with CA. I would pre-order without an incentive as a matter of fact. You just know you'll spend hundreds of hours on anything they make. Even the game I ended up liking the least, still set me back over 500 hours. Only CIV5 and Skyrim somewhat approach that. (Well, if it wasn't for my ruined shoulder a certain flight sim would have to be on the list as well, but nver mind that.) So, I really do wonder why complain this much? Look at the upside! There is another GREAT game around the corner. This time with steam engines. :D
  • JaexJaex Junior Member Posts: 3Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Not gonna pre-order it, nor buy it at all.
    I don't like this kind of marketing at all.

    If you want to make money, make the game proper with free dlc's that stimulate the customers and in some way make it either spectatorfriendly or focus on the competetive side.
    You recommend good games to your friends, there is your income. Fight the piracy IN THE RIGHT WAY, don't milk the legit customers.
    Ship a totally bug/desync free multiplayer and people will buy it just for the multiplayer.

    There are tons of sucessful examples working with this model.

    Feud: You are right in the aspect that amount of pre-orders may indicate to the developers how much faith the community will have in them, but offering pre-order only bonuses is NOT giving people faith in the company.
  • SchepelSchepel Senior Member Posts: 1,283Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Jaex wrote: »
    Not gonna pre-order it, nor buy it at all.
    There are tons of sucessful examples working with this model.

    Now I'm curious. Please do name ONE game which was completely bug free at release.
  • easytargeteasytarget Senior Member Posts: 2,338Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I'd pay CA extra if they'd stop wasting time on MP. :p
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  • MrBoBo1MrBoBo1 Senior Member Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    easytarget wrote: »
    I'd pay CA extra if they'd stop wasting time on MP. :p

    Personally, I think they should make a seperate totally focused multiplayer game, possibly with a free2play model.
  • Face-sploderFace-sploder Senior Member Posts: 536Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    MrBoBo1 wrote: »
    Personally, I think they should make a seperate totally focused multiplayer game, possibly with a free2play model.

    What is this "free2play" you speak of and where can we find it?

    Seriously speaking, I doubt that a strategy game like this will ever become free to play, simply because the model wouldn't apply well to something like this. Really the only way a free-to-play model could work for this is to make people pay to unlock retainers and units, and we know that's never going to happen.
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