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Adorbs

Hold firm has to go

2

Comments

  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    qed_deq wrote: »
    There are many people in this thread that are in spear or cav clans and use HF since a long time that still see HF as being OP so your theory is wrong, including myself i use it since the Loan Sword era and at that time was powerful but you also had powerful morale retainers and better sword retainers and upgrades, so HF was not that critical.

    I want HF nerfed not only because its unfair for newcomers and bow/sword clan people, but also because i've seen games, in tournaments, between experienced players, where the less skilled won by using an ability, getting outplayed but having an "i win" button its not ok. Abilities should be powerful but not game breaking. Think that a player makes a lot of effort to make a flanking maneuver and it succeeded, than the other player pops HF and doesn't care. One player puts in skill and micro, the other pushes a button and denies it.

    IMO people that argue against HF nerf are people that found their magic button for winning games and are afraid to loose it.
    but its not a "i win" button, i find that I never get to use it. But the way you assume that even with skill and micro being nullified by a push of a button is wrong. I find that it doesnt matter unless the person spams it which is more annoying, other wise 1-2 hold firms are fine.
  • HaZE7HaZE7 Senior Member Posts: 431Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    The most difficult army to face is Hold firm yari ashigaru with Nag Monk infantry. Hold firm makes this army extremely strong. The yari ashigaru with hold firm can stop vetted katana infantry and allow the nag monks to clean up with ease (some use no dachi or katana sam). When using a nag monk core with hold firm Yari ash you cannot be attacked in the front effectively and Cavalry is near-impotent. Whatever the rest of the money is spent on depends on play style but this army type is very effective against a large variety of armies. Too effective.
  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Yes, after played 50 games, to get one unit special with hold firm and upgradet with 50 Clantokens this unit must be quite useless vs the Standart 6 Katana Sam Core, dont it?

    Warcry affects up to 3 Enemy units too. So hold firm can be considered as counter.

    Use Warcry and Hold Firm means?
    There are many low armoured very expensive units on battlefield.

    OHHHHH???? ****!!! Could Bows be the solution? Why not? Why most people bring less than 3 Bows to battlefield?

    Bows suck, and thats not the fault of Hold firm and Warcry. Melee rusher with Sword/Nag monk Core complaining Bows are too strong, demandet a nerf hammer on Bows, now same come up and demand a nerf on HF? Why not on Warcry?
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • (Darkelf) Temper(Darkelf) Temper Senior Member Posts: 541Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Yeah but the price comparison between the katana and the yari ash at same upgrade level is the deal breaker.

    At least it is for me,effective spears are way too cheap for my liking.Cavalry protection cost a pittance in this game,especially if you use the leader tree.

    I have no grudge against monk cav with HF,their price and cap limit puts them in perspective.
  • RTKAbuRTKAbu Senior Member Posts: 1,304Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Yoritomo wrote: »
    Yes, after played 50 games, to get one unit special with hold firm and upgradet with 50 Clantokens this unit must be quite useless vs the Standart 6 Katana Sam Core, dont it?

    Warcry affects up to 3 Enemy units too. So hold firm can be considered as counter.

    Use Warcry and Hold Firm means?
    There are many low armoured very expensive units on battlefield.

    OHHHHH???? ****!!! Could Bows be the solution? Why not? Why most people bring less than 3 Bows to battlefield?

    Bows suck, and thats not the fault of Hold firm and Warcry. Melee rusher with Sword/Nag monk Core complaining Bows are too strong, demandet a nerf hammer on Bows, now same come up and demand a nerf on HF? Why not on Warcry?

    Because warcry isnt as long as HF, and it doesnt give unlimited morale, unlimited morale! (unlimited morale!?!?!). But yes, you are right about bows, bows are pretty bad atm.
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    RTKAbu wrote: »
    Because warcry isnt as long as HF, and it doesnt give unlimited morale, unlimited morale! (unlimited morale!?!?!). But yes, you are right about bows, bows are pretty bad atm.

    i think they take the same amount of duration. War cry/HF that is.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Warcry is just a small morale penalty while HF is stops all morale penalties, big difference there...
  • HaZE7HaZE7 Senior Member Posts: 431Registered Users
    edited March 2012
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Warcry is just a small morale penalty while HF is stops all morale penalties, big difference there...
    -4 morale is alot.
  • HaZE7HaZE7 Senior Member Posts: 431Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    TheDuke wrote: »
    -4 morale is alot.
    I thought it was -1 morale?
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    Thats scare enemies.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Compared to unbreakable morale no it's not.
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    and -3-4 def, also being a FREE ability/lvl 5 upgrade, Thats still PRETTY good.
  • andferpaandferpa Senior Member Posts: 2,520Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Not as good as unbreakable morale for 4 units....
    Imagine, warcry costs 50 (arbitrary number) and decreases morale and melee defense of units in radius, while it can be a lot, it is not assured, hold firm affects the 3 closest ones, in the radius, for same amount of time, and is unbreakable, unlike warcry, which is a finite decrease.
    Andokides
    All war is based on deception.
    Sun Tzu
    If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.
    Sun Tzu
    A leader is a dealer in hope.
    Napoleon Bonaparte
    Heaven cannot brook two suns, nor earth two masters.
    Alexander the Great
    All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.
    William Shakespeare.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    and HF gives +6 def to the units along with unbreakable morale...
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    120 koku while War cry is free
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Warcry really isn't free when it's in the cost with the unit, just like banzai for ND
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    thats a really opinionated statement. because how do we calculate that in?
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Do you really think nag monks and ND would be worth their cost without their special skills?
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Do you really think nag monks and ND would be worth their cost without their special skills?

    the monk ya, but Nodachi is questionable
  • Jack The naked snakeJack The naked snake Junior Member Posts: 18Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    It really is an auto win button i haven been able to beat anyone who uses it to be honest even if i put my fully vetted nodachi in banzai on a yari ashigaru with hold firm i have no chance not to mention any other units with it also get the advantage. Totally unfair
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    It really is an auto win button i haven been able to beat anyone who uses it to be honest even if i put my fully vetted nodachi in banzai on a yari ashigaru with hold firm i have no chance not to mention any other units with it also get the advantage. Totally unfair
    maybe because you suck, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, was that yari ash in spear wall?
  • KillerMonkeyBobKillerMonkeyBob Senior Member Posts: 609Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    TheDuke wrote: »
    but its not a "i win" button, i find that I never get to use it. But the way you assume that even with skill and micro being nullified by a push of a button is wrong. I find that it doesnt matter unless the person spams it which is more annoying, other wise 1-2 hold firms are fine.
    A: has a balanced army, swords, bows, cav etc B has yari ash, monk and match army. B see's A's superior missile and cav force and realises a drawn out battle will cost him. A moves to a hill to prolong the fight, B rushes anyway up hill. A meets with a downhill charge and sends his cav into the back what some would consider an instant route or atleast a heavy morale hit. But wait no! B had hold firm and his men are fighting to the last, now he has trapped the cav with fodder units popped a few warcry's and his matchlocks are firing.. A's army mass routes. Yep B definately deserved to win with a blind rush up hill with exposed flanks. 1 matchlock bullet is enough to cause morale damage in melee and added with warcry and mounting casualties/fatigue the unit without hold firm doesnt stand a chance in hell. Hold firm should either be a single unit ability, a yari heroe only ability like its description says or give a morale BOOST but not unbreakable morale.
  • Jack The naked snakeJack The naked snake Junior Member Posts: 18Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    TheDuke wrote: »
    maybe because you suck, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, was that yari ash in spear wall?

    alright i suck, no matter if its in spear wall or not nodachis are suppose to **** yari ashigaru and with the HF ability a spear units most effective counter a costly Sword unit with deadly high attack can not beat a very cheap spear unit.
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    A: has a balanced army, swords, bows, cav etc B has yari ash, monk and match army. B see's A's superior missile and cav force and realises a drawn out battle will cost him. A moves to a hill to prolong the fight, B rushes anyway up hill. A meets with a downhill charge and sends his cav into the back what some would consider an instant route or atleast a heavy morale hit. But wait no! B had hold firm and his men are fighting to the last, now he has trapped the cav with fodder units popped a few warcry's and his matchlocks are firing.. A's army mass routes. Yep B definately deserved to win with a blind rush up hill with exposed flanks. 1 matchlock bullet is enough to cause morale damage in melee and added with warcry and mounting casualties/fatigue the unit without hold firm doesnt stand a chance in hell. Hold firm should either be a single unit ability, a yari heroe only ability like its description says or give a morale BOOST but not unbreakable morale.
    Because A charged cav into a blob of SPEARS, that is the problem, its A's fault that he choose to engage, when he could have continued to prolong the fight.

    @Jack, Nodachis are supposed to **** every infantry fight up, but they don't.
  • Jack The naked snakeJack The naked snake Junior Member Posts: 18Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    TheDuke wrote: »
    Because A charged cav into a blob of SPEARS, that is the problem, its A's fault that he choose to engage, when he could have continued to prolong the fight.
    @Jack, Nodachis are supposed to **** every infantry fight up, but they don't.


    So you admit something is wrong then lo l
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    well ya, but the problem is with in the unit and banzai being broken.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    TheDuke wrote: »
    the monk ya, but Nodachi is questionable

    Sorry but those skills are figured in with the price of the unit, they are not free. Everything a unit brings to the field with it is figured into the price of that unit.

    If nag monks didn't have warcry and cost the same I'd be using nag sams instead and if no dachi didn't have banzai I would always use kata sams instead. I would even put money on it that most competitive players would do the same.

    Hold firm is much stronger compared to warcry because hold firm stops all morale penalties, while warcry is just 1 morale penalty and not that devastating since high end games are played mostly with units high morale or very high morale.

    It's bad enough that units in high end matches are already fight to the death or close to it alot because of the high morale, that unbreakable morale is also in the mix as well for a short period of time by HF and banzai. It's not a "I win button" HF, but sure dose kill the idea of a morale system. TW battles last time I check were suppose to be about morale and working with it and exploiting your opponents morale and what made TW battles stand out from other RTS games and adds more skill to the battles, no "easy mode" grind away.

    Unbreakable morale should be removed from both abilities HF and banzai. Do we want to start to see TW battles with no morale at all in the future? I sure don't...
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Sorry but those skills are figured in with the price of the unit, they are not free. Everything a unit brings to the field with it is figured into the price of that unit.

    If nag monks didn't have warcry and cost the same I'd be using nag sams instead and if no dachi didn't have banzai I would always use kata sams instead. I would even put money on it that most competitive players would do the same.

    Hold firm is much stronger compared to warcry because hold firm stops all morale penalties, while warcry is just 1 morale penalty and not that devastating since high end games are played mostly with units high morale or very high morale.

    It's bad enough that units in high end matches are already fight to the death or close to it alot because of the high morale, that unbreakable morale is also in the mix as well for a short period of time by HF and banzai. It's not a "I win button" HF, but sure dose kill the idea of a morale system. TW battles last time I check were suppose to be about morale and working with it and exploiting your opponents morale and what made TW battles stand out from other RTS games and adds more skill to the battles, no "easy mode" grind away.

    Unbreakable morale should be removed from both abilities HF and banzai. Do we want to start to see TW battles with no morale at all in the future? I sure don't...
    Like I said, thats your opinion.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    TheDuke wrote: »
    Like I said, thats your opinion.

    It's a fact not an opinion.
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