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CA please change the Coatl's head

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  • ujopujop Registered Users Posts: 144
    edited July 2021

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    Lucky it’s Warhammer and not art history class then.
    Right, because nothing in Warhammer based itself on real world art or history. No one tell this guy about the Empire or Brettonia
    Holy Roman Empire wizards and griphon knights coming to a museum near you. /s

    Based on myth and history for parody and fantasy is not a photocopy and does not need to be, inspiration is one thing. Historical realism is another.
    Correct. People simply have a issue to distinguish between "based on" and "copied". And also as i wrote a few pages ago the god Quetzalcoatl is often associated with the resplendent quetzal. A bird. And also often depicted with one. Anyone can google this out.
  • Fingolfin_the-GoldenFingolfin_the-Golden Registered Users Posts: 4,709

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    Lucky it’s Warhammer and not art history class then.
    Right, because nothing in Warhammer based itself on real world art or history. No one tell this guy about the Empire or Brettonia
    I guess King Arthur and Monty Python was real and lived in France - fact. /s
    BEARS, Beets, Battlestar Galactica 🧝‍♀️ Pandas too please CA!
  • CountTalabeclandCountTalabecland Registered Users Posts: 1,027


    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Literally speaking it has quite a bit to do with where the Aztecs culture/folklore developed from. A “coatl” or even depictions of “quetzalcoatl” were not restricted to literally snake + wings. If CA wants to add a beak that is fine.

    If CA want to expand where they got the inspiration from, that’s fine too.

    The CA coatl is still a serpent. Having avian features does not mean its not a coatl. The CA coatl matches the lore descriptions and there was a 2nd edition model that was 100% snake and a kitbash that was half dragon.

    The CA coatl is pretty true to the mythology of serpent with feathers (maybe flying), as well as true to the lore of warhammer.

    People are acting like it was stated somewhere that it could not have a beak but that’s simply not the case. CA made it part bird part snake part dragon and there’s nothing wrong with that.

    Get a mod because they won’t change it
    You don’t know what you’re talking about. Find me a single instance of mesoamerican art where the Plumed Serpent, Quetzalcoatl or Kukulkan were depicted with bird like faces. Take your time.
    I never said there was. I said that the depictions vary. Sometimes its a man, sometimes its a man-snake hybrid, sometimes its a feathered snake and so on. All I am saying is that there is not one depiction that CA must follow or its not a coatl. I do know what I am talking about, you just choose not to listen or are not capable of reading comprehension.

    So, please don’t be a jackass and put words in my mouth.
  • CountTalabeclandCountTalabecland Registered Users Posts: 1,027

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    It's almost as if Tepok, of which the Coatl is a manifestation of, is not known as the "Feathered Serpent God" in every single lore we've ever had about him.... It's "Feathered Serpent God", not "Serpentine Bird God" nor "Dragon Hawk God".

    Just gonna leave this here:

    The blessing of Tepok, the mysterious feathered-serpent god of the air, manifests itself in the form of protection from magic, and is often signified by the colour purple.
    The Lizardmen worship the deity Tepok as the Feathered Serpent God of the air and of sacred places, a powerful symbol of protection against harmful magic. The being is frequently referred to as 'inscrutable', a characteristic manifested in its followers, who exhibit an air of mysterious otherworldliness.
    The feathered serpent totem creature is believed to refer to the Coatl, a mythical creature said to be a bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird, at times represented as a huge snake covered with brightly coloured feathers, at others as a snake with wide feathered pinions. These feathers are invariable represented as purple or deep blue, or a combination of the two and it has been reported by returning explorers that some Lizardmen sport feathers of this colour as a mark of rank or role, though most scholars refuse to believe they are from an actual Coatl, for surely such a creature must be extremely rare, if it even exists at all.


    It's very clear here, that the "bird" part of the Coatl was very specifically limited to the presence of feathers either on the body and/or wings. Everything else is a snake.
    It's cool and all if you like the thing we got. Glad you do. But that's where it ends really, since there arent really any arguments beyond the simple subjective taste.
    Don't act all surprised if people who actually have known the Coatl from back in the TT days, so actually care about its implementation, are disappointed that what we finally got is a completely brand new re-imagining of the creature that goes against everything we've ever known about the Coatl from official lore and artwork and, more broadly speaking, against the entire thematic theme of the lizardmen faction.

    It also doesn't help that despite having sweet animations when singled out, the entire unit looks janky as hell in combat.
    Bird-snake hybrid opens the door for the CA version. Feathered serpent does not rule out the beak. The CA version is still a serpent.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 414
    edited July 2021

    jamreal18 said:

    I said I don’t need to be close up and nitpick the model as long as it looks like it should from a playable distance.

    It is because it shall look like how it was depicted in the lore.

    Imagine Jabberslythe looks different from TT, is it okay with you?
    The model is how it’s described in lore. Read the lore.
    You are arguing against the lore.
    Then why official images contradict what you've just said? Something isn't right.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 8,419

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    It's almost as if Tepok, of which the Coatl is a manifestation of, is not known as the "Feathered Serpent God" in every single lore we've ever had about him.... It's "Feathered Serpent God", not "Serpentine Bird God" nor "Dragon Hawk God".

    Just gonna leave this here:

    The blessing of Tepok, the mysterious feathered-serpent god of the air, manifests itself in the form of protection from magic, and is often signified by the colour purple.
    The Lizardmen worship the deity Tepok as the Feathered Serpent God of the air and of sacred places, a powerful symbol of protection against harmful magic. The being is frequently referred to as 'inscrutable', a characteristic manifested in its followers, who exhibit an air of mysterious otherworldliness.
    The feathered serpent totem creature is believed to refer to the Coatl, a mythical creature said to be a bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird, at times represented as a huge snake covered with brightly coloured feathers, at others as a snake with wide feathered pinions. These feathers are invariable represented as purple or deep blue, or a combination of the two and it has been reported by returning explorers that some Lizardmen sport feathers of this colour as a mark of rank or role, though most scholars refuse to believe they are from an actual Coatl, for surely such a creature must be extremely rare, if it even exists at all.


    It's very clear here, that the "bird" part of the Coatl was very specifically limited to the presence of feathers either on the body and/or wings. Everything else is a snake.
    It's cool and all if you like the thing we got. Glad you do. But that's where it ends really, since there arent really any arguments beyond the simple subjective taste.
    Don't act all surprised if people who actually have known the Coatl from back in the TT days, so actually care about its implementation, are disappointed that what we finally got is a completely brand new re-imagining of the creature that goes against everything we've ever known about the Coatl from official lore and artwork and, more broadly speaking, against the entire thematic theme of the lizardmen faction.

    It also doesn't help that despite having sweet animations when singled out, the entire unit looks janky as hell in combat.
    Bird-snake hybrid opens the door for the CA version. Feathered serpent does not rule out the beak. The CA version is still a serpent.
    Still looks like a Tzeentch Daemon, still looks different to every other GW art and Description of the Coatl, Still doesn't meet expectations built up by decades of world building.
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,650
    endikux said:

    I'm going to go out on a limb and summarize:

    1) Coatl doesn't rise to the level of broken
    2) A very large portion of players don't like the coatl head design

    We can argue about biology and past artwork forever, but this head really doesn't sit well with a lot of people. Myself included. It doesn't fit the LM motif, and it doesn't fit what people have in mind when they think of what a coatl should be.

    I know when I first saw that barely visible ghostly image in the first trailer teaser this head was NOT what I ultimately expected to see.

    Yeah, but a lot of peopl don't like beefy Kislevites (myself included) are CA going to change that? Probably not.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • steam_165171714789pPAEKOHsteam_165171714789pPAEKOH Registered Users Posts: 855
    edited July 2021
    Abmong said:


    Yeah, but a lot of peopl don't like beefy Kislevites (myself included) are CA going to change that? Probably not.

    With that attitude, no one would ever try to lose weight or ask a girl out. The human race would have ceased to exist from obesity and lack of reproduction. It's hopeless to try. Don't ever ask for anything. Don't bother ever voicing concerns or customer feedback. The end is nigh! All hope is lost! The sun will one day explode so everything is pointless!


    But yeah, CA won't do anything. That is definitely true. They should, but they won't.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 23,336
    Get on topic folks, or the thread will be closed.
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  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,078


    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Literally speaking it has quite a bit to do with where the Aztecs culture/folklore developed from. A “coatl” or even depictions of “quetzalcoatl” were not restricted to literally snake + wings. If CA wants to add a beak that is fine.

    If CA want to expand where they got the inspiration from, that’s fine too.

    The CA coatl is still a serpent. Having avian features does not mean its not a coatl. The CA coatl matches the lore descriptions and there was a 2nd edition model that was 100% snake and a kitbash that was half dragon.

    The CA coatl is pretty true to the mythology of serpent with feathers (maybe flying), as well as true to the lore of warhammer.

    People are acting like it was stated somewhere that it could not have a beak but that’s simply not the case. CA made it part bird part snake part dragon and there’s nothing wrong with that.

    Get a mod because they won’t change it
    You don’t know what you’re talking about. Find me a single instance of mesoamerican art where the Plumed Serpent, Quetzalcoatl or Kukulkan were depicted with bird like faces. Take your time.
    I never said there was. I said that the depictions vary. Sometimes its a man, sometimes its a man-snake hybrid, sometimes its a feathered snake and so on. All I am saying is that there is not one depiction that CA must follow or its not a coatl. I do know what I am talking about, you just choose not to listen or are not capable of reading comprehension.

    So, please don’t be a jackass and put words in my mouth.
    Why would I or anyone try to put more words in your mouth, when your rambling defense of CA’s design decision was so devoid of meaning or value?

    Of course CA can do whatever they want, they could make any combination of absurd features on a unit and call it a Coatl if they choose. The point is the current design clashes with the basic concepts that the name association is supposed to invoke. That’s why it, and your defense of it, are trash.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    edited July 2021
    Somehow missed this until my phone glitched and reloaded page 5 instead of going to page 6...
    Abmong said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Turtles? Wait, what?

    *does a spot of research*

    Oh. That IS a new development.

    On the general concept, though, it's also worth noting that a lot of non-theropod dinosaurs also have traits commonly associated with birds. Like beaks on some ornithischians... not to mention that the "ORNITHischian" group is, paradoxically, not the group that birds actually emerged from.

    I did raise an eyebrow at that at first, but I can see it, they do have those beakty mouths and flipper legs. At a stretch you can almost say they're underwater wings. Beaks seem to be something quite common among dinos given the right conditions.
    There does seem to be something about the archosauromorph group that leads to a tendency to develop beaks - although I'm pretty sure that there isn't a beaked common ancestor. Similarly, even with the new cladistics, turtles split off long before archosaurs started evolving towards flight. Flippers also aren't exactly unique to the archosauroid branch - mosasaurs are on the lizard side, and other extinct marine reptiles split off before the split between lizards and archosaurs.

    Still interesting that they've now got turtles splitting off from archosaurs, when previously they split well before that.
    Abmong said:



    We're talking about Warhammer here


    Where

    1. Lizardmen are lizards, as in reptiles, not dinosaurs despite the Saurus units and appearance

    2. The Lizardmen units are explicitly stated as being cold blooded, something dinosaurs are stressed as not being

    3. They aren't covered in feathers like dinosaurs


    Ergo Lizardmen are closer to DnD's Lizardmen with a lot of dinosaur-like reptiles

    Don't know what the DnD lore on their Lizardmen is, but Warhammer explicitly states the Old Ones created the Lizardmen from the native wildlife on the planet commonly understood to be ancient dinos that fought with dragons.
    The only ones with possibly Alien and Old Ones' DNA are the Slann and they're amphibians not reptilians. Birds weren't given a specific backstory, but there's no reason to assume they didn't evolve from native dinos same way they did in real world.

    Dinosaurs were neither cold-blooded nor warm-blooded they were on the cusp of both. And not all dinos had feathers, many scientists believe that feathers have only evolved once in dinosaurs, in the family group that birds descend from.
    GW probably just didn't do that much research into it and based them on pre feather discover on dinos, plus they look better without feathers.
    The irony here is that none of the Lizardmen (apart from the swarms, and maybe Chameleon Skinks) are actually lizards. Skinks, despite the name, were uplifted from something newtlike and are therefore technically amphibians. Saurus were bred from the crocodylomorph lineage according to the 5E army book, and are therefore archosaurs. Coatl, if the result of a natural evolutionary process of the Warhammer world at all (they might have been brought by the Old Ones from elsewhere like the Slann), are much more likely to be tyrannoraptors than squamates due to the presence of feathers, even if they have lost their hind legs (a curious evolutionary path but, if they have a means of launching themselves without legs, it makes sense).

    So from an evolutionary history perspective, dragon-like with a beak actually makes more sense than viper, because it's not actually a serpent, it just looks like one as a result of convergent evolution.
    ujop said:

    Pocman said:

    I mean, it's not just the beak. In general, it looks lackluster.

    ujop said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    lol since the time a snake has feathers. Or wings. Quetzalcoatl doesn't mean winged feathered serpent but nobody is complaining about that.
    It's a fantasy creature it can look whatever the designers want it to.
    That's a pointless argument.


    Yeah, in the neverendong story they decided to make the dragon look like a long dog. It looked terrible.

    Accordong to that logic, they could make the HE dragons looks as cats with three legs. Or the giants one meter tall. Or minotaur look like centaurs. The question is not about if they could, but if they should.

    Every argument here is pointless. The whole thread is based on personal preferences in which people differ.
    As an example. You said the dragon from the never ending story looked terrible. I liked it. And many other people also.
    It's called personal preference or taste.
    And naturally you also went to the extremes to name your examples. But you should actually google the term dragon and look how many iterations of it's design exists. Even among one IP/Mythology/Fantasy setting. The differences are far greater than a beak, on which this thread is based on.
    If you don't like it ok it's your taste. But coming with arguments that a made up creature should look like this because i saw it somewhere, is childish. And again we are talking here about a beak!
    Yeah, it amazes me when these days you can find people saying "that's not a dragon, that's a wyvern!" (when wyverns have always been simply a type of dragon until D&D separated wyverns and 'true dragons') while I'm looking at some of the things that medieval people called dragons and thinking "really, an extra set of legs matters THAT much to you?"
    Victuz said:

    jamreal18 said:

    I said I don’t need to be close up and nitpick the model as long as it looks like it should from a playable distance.

    It is because it shall look like how it was depicted in the lore.

    Imagine Jabberslythe looks different from TT, is it okay with you?
    The model is how it’s described in lore. Read the lore.
    You are arguing against the lore.
    Then why official images contradict what you've just said? Something isn't right.
    Why do official images of Stegadons pre-7E (and even some 7E cases) have the triceratops horn arrangement rather than what they have now?

    Sometimes, designs change.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,763


    Don't act all surprised if people who actually have known the Coatl from back in the TT days, so actually care about its implementation, are disappointed that what we finally got is a completely brand new re-imagining of the creature that goes against everything we've ever known about the Coatl from official lore and artwork and, more broadly speaking, against the entire thematic theme of the lizardmen faction.

    It also doesn't help that despite having sweet animations when singled out, the entire unit looks janky as hell in combat.

    Maelas said:

    Kayosiv said:


    I guess corners had to be cut to fit 4 big monsters into a DLC... and this is that corner.

    I don't understand why people think that making a snake head is somehow pricier than making a bird head ! It's a unique model, CA could have done it any other way and it would have been the same price ! Cheaper even, cause snake heads are already in game !
    https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/ofkrug/looking_like_the_charlemagnes_ran_out_in_regards/

    It just doesn't seem finished in a variety of ways. The head makes me think it didn't have the proper attention it deserves, and so does the above, like the polish time or attention just couldn't be spared.

    Now the above video is also a pre-build and still in development so we'll see if this is the final version, but it is eyebrow raising to say the least.
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  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,650
    Draxynnic said:


    Somehow missed this until my phone glitched and reloaded page 5 instead of going to page 6...

    You didn't miss it, I edited and it got sent to the Mods' holding pen for about a day before being reinserted.
    Draxynnic said:


    There does seem to be something about the archosauromorph group that leads to a tendency to develop beaks - although I'm pretty sure that there isn't a beaked common ancestor. Similarly, even with the new cladistics, turtles split off long before archosaurs started evolving towards flight. Flippers also aren't exactly unique to the archosauroid branch - mosasaurs are on the lizard side, and other extinct marine reptiles split off before the split between lizards and archosaurs.

    Still interesting that they've now got turtles splitting off from archosaurs, when previously they split well before that.

    Yeah I wasn't saying they necessarily had to have beaked ancestor, just that reptiles in general have the proclivity to independently develope beaks or similar structures. Obviously I'm no evolutionary biologist, but I suspect it maybe something to do with reptiles types who have a habit of digging with their mouths for food. That repeated percussive damage may have triggered their frontal scales to grow stronger and larger to eventual become beaks.
    It would explain how Triceratops, Tethyshadros and others that were not ancestors of birds developed beaks, through digging up root vegs and such. Birds convergently developing it later through digging for worms or smashing into trees for insects, and turtles through chomping at shellfish and coral.
    Draxynnic said:


    The irony here is that none of the Lizardmen (apart from the swarms, and maybe Chameleon Skinks) are actually lizards. Skinks, despite the name, were uplifted from something newtlike and are therefore technically amphibians. Saurus were bred from the crocodylomorph lineage according to the 5E army book, and are therefore archosaurs. Coatl, if the result of a natural evolutionary process of the Warhammer world at all (they might have been brought by the Old Ones from elsewhere like the Slann), are much more likely to be tyrannoraptors than squamates due to the presence of feathers, even if they have lost their hind legs (a curious evolutionary path but, if they have a means of launching themselves without legs, it makes sense).

    So from an evolutionary history perspective, dragon-like with a beak actually makes more sense than viper, because it's not actually a serpent, it just looks like one as a result of convergent evolution.

    I remember reading somewhere that pre 3rd edition Lizardmen were just Lizard Beastmen, back in the day when Troglodytes were still a thing and Old Slann were their own army with Warrior Bull Slann and no Lizardmen as we know them now.

    We don't even need to apply evolutionary logic to the Coatl when lore says the Old Ones created the lizardmen through genetic engineering, The Old Ones can pick from whatever animal they wanted and made a chimeric creature out of them, so the Coatl doesn't have to conform to any particular genus since the Lizardmen themselves, as you said where no strictly evolved, but created from different species. And if not completely alien, being the creature of Tepok, it's implied Tepok created the Coatl and they didn't evolve naturally on the world. Adding bird as a reptilian relative is perfectly in-keeping with the theme of the Lizardmen IMO.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,377

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    It's almost as if Tepok, of which the Coatl is a manifestation of, is not known as the "Feathered Serpent God" in every single lore we've ever had about him.... It's "Feathered Serpent God", not "Serpentine Bird God" nor "Dragon Hawk God".

    Just gonna leave this here:

    The blessing of Tepok, the mysterious feathered-serpent god of the air, manifests itself in the form of protection from magic, and is often signified by the colour purple.
    The Lizardmen worship the deity Tepok as the Feathered Serpent God of the air and of sacred places, a powerful symbol of protection against harmful magic. The being is frequently referred to as 'inscrutable', a characteristic manifested in its followers, who exhibit an air of mysterious otherworldliness.
    The feathered serpent totem creature is believed to refer to the Coatl, a mythical creature said to be a bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird, at times represented as a huge snake covered with brightly coloured feathers, at others as a snake with wide feathered pinions. These feathers are invariable represented as purple or deep blue, or a combination of the two and it has been reported by returning explorers that some Lizardmen sport feathers of this colour as a mark of rank or role, though most scholars refuse to believe they are from an actual Coatl, for surely such a creature must be extremely rare, if it even exists at all.


    It's very clear here, that the "bird" part of the Coatl was very specifically limited to the presence of feathers either on the body and/or wings. Everything else is a snake.
    It's cool and all if you like the thing we got. Glad you do. But that's where it ends really, since there arent really any arguments beyond the simple subjective taste.
    Don't act all surprised if people who actually have known the Coatl from back in the TT days, so actually care about its implementation, are disappointed that what we finally got is a completely brand new re-imagining of the creature that goes against everything we've ever known about the Coatl from official lore and artwork and, more broadly speaking, against the entire thematic theme of the lizardmen faction.

    It also doesn't help that despite having sweet animations when singled out, the entire unit looks janky as hell in combat.
    Bird-snake hybrid opens the door for the CA version. Feathered serpent does not rule out the beak. The CA version is still a serpent.
    No it doesn't open the door. You literally ignore the very next sentence where we are told (by GW) what "bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird" means visually, i.e. "a huge snake covered in feathers and/or a snake with wide feathered pinions". The "bird" part of the hybrid is exlusively the feathers and the feathered wings. And to support said description, we also have an official GW artwork portraying him as such (i won't even mention the 2004 concept art that never saw light of the day unfortunately).

    Dude, it's ok that you like it and all, but stop trying to give some sort of explanation. Just say you never really cared about the Coatl, and you're perfectly fine with CA's complete reimagining of the creature (sure, approved by GW). You like it and It's ok. Not sure why you even bother trying to convince people otherwise (dragon hawks? Native Americans? lol), you're happy with what you got, enjoy it.

    Because the truth is that it is indeed an entire brand new reimagining of the creature by CA's artists, that goes against ALL the prestablished official lore GW wrote on very official sources. It's perfectly fine that longtime LM fans that eagerly awaited to see CA's take on the sacred feathered serpent are disappointed that they got a cockatrice looklike, who's only snake-like feature is an elongated body (which isn't even unique to snakes per se), and is visually compeltely detached from the heavily mesoamerican influenced LM faction.
    Even the elongated body itself isn't snake-like: very prominent and raised scales, dorsal spines ecc.

    It's also clear that the Coatl is not only a complete reimagining, but also the new unit that recieved the least budget. Its incredibly janky and buggy. The fact that it doesn't even have a landing animation when attacking ground units (but is perpetually flying) make it look extremely weird in a lot of movements on the ground.
  • Fingolfin_the-GoldenFingolfin_the-Golden Registered Users Posts: 4,709

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    It's almost as if Tepok, of which the Coatl is a manifestation of, is not known as the "Feathered Serpent God" in every single lore we've ever had about him.... It's "Feathered Serpent God", not "Serpentine Bird God" nor "Dragon Hawk God".

    Just gonna leave this here:

    The blessing of Tepok, the mysterious feathered-serpent god of the air, manifests itself in the form of protection from magic, and is often signified by the colour purple.
    The Lizardmen worship the deity Tepok as the Feathered Serpent God of the air and of sacred places, a powerful symbol of protection against harmful magic. The being is frequently referred to as 'inscrutable', a characteristic manifested in its followers, who exhibit an air of mysterious otherworldliness.
    The feathered serpent totem creature is believed to refer to the Coatl, a mythical creature said to be a bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird, at times represented as a huge snake covered with brightly coloured feathers, at others as a snake with wide feathered pinions. These feathers are invariable represented as purple or deep blue, or a combination of the two and it has been reported by returning explorers that some Lizardmen sport feathers of this colour as a mark of rank or role, though most scholars refuse to believe they are from an actual Coatl, for surely such a creature must be extremely rare, if it even exists at all.


    It's very clear here, that the "bird" part of the Coatl was very specifically limited to the presence of feathers either on the body and/or wings. Everything else is a snake.
    It's cool and all if you like the thing we got. Glad you do. But that's where it ends really, since there arent really any arguments beyond the simple subjective taste.
    Don't act all surprised if people who actually have known the Coatl from back in the TT days, so actually care about its implementation, are disappointed that what we finally got is a completely brand new re-imagining of the creature that goes against everything we've ever known about the Coatl from official lore and artwork and, more broadly speaking, against the entire thematic theme of the lizardmen faction.

    It also doesn't help that despite having sweet animations when singled out, the entire unit looks janky as hell in combat.
    Bird-snake hybrid opens the door for the CA version. Feathered serpent does not rule out the beak. The CA version is still a serpent.
    No it doesn't open the door. You literally ignore the very next sentence where we are told (by GW) what "bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird" means visually, i.e. "a huge snake covered in feathers and/or a snake with wide feathered pinions". The "bird" part of the hybrid is exlusively the feathers and the feathered wings. And to support said description, we also have an official GW artwork portraying him as such (i won't even mention the 2004 concept art that never saw light of the day unfortunately).

    Dude, it's ok that you like it and all, but stop trying to give some sort of explanation. Just say you never really cared about the Coatl, and you're perfectly fine with CA's complete reimagining of the creature (sure, approved by GW). You like it and It's ok. Not sure why you even bother trying to convince people otherwise (dragon hawks? Native Americans? lol), you're happy with what you got, enjoy it.

    Because the truth is that it is indeed an entire brand new reimagining of the creature by CA's artists, that goes against ALL the prestablished official lore GW wrote on very official sources. It's perfectly fine that longtime LM fans that eagerly awaited to see CA's take on the sacred feathered serpent are disappointed that they got a cockatrice looklike, who's only snake-like feature is an elongated body (which isn't even unique to snakes per se), and is visually compeltely detached from the heavily mesoamerican influenced LM faction.
    Even the elongated body itself isn't snake-like: very prominent and raised scales, dorsal spines ecc.

    It's also clear that the Coatl is not only a complete reimagining, but also the new unit that recieved the least budget. Its incredibly janky and buggy. The fact that it doesn't even have a landing animation when attacking ground units (but is perpetually flying) make it look extremely weird in a lot of movements on the ground.
    Lol.
    It’s very similar to GW official lore and description.
    Just say you don’t like GW design and leave it at that.
    BEARS, Beets, Battlestar Galactica 🧝‍♀️ Pandas too please CA!
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,761

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    I don't see how that's an argument against what I said. So if they made the unit humanoid you would have been ok with it, because it appears like that in the mesoamerican iconography?
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,050
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,336
    jamreal18 said:


    That's actually cute.


  • twohundredandonetwohundredandone Registered Users Posts: 76
    edited July 2021
    (reposting my comment since it bugged out here).
    Post edited by twohundredandone on
  • CountTalabeclandCountTalabecland Registered Users Posts: 1,027

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    It's almost as if Tepok, of which the Coatl is a manifestation of, is not known as the "Feathered Serpent God" in every single lore we've ever had about him.... It's "Feathered Serpent God", not "Serpentine Bird God" nor "Dragon Hawk God".

    Just gonna leave this here:

    The blessing of Tepok, the mysterious feathered-serpent god of the air, manifests itself in the form of protection from magic, and is often signified by the colour purple.
    The Lizardmen worship the deity Tepok as the Feathered Serpent God of the air and of sacred places, a powerful symbol of protection against harmful magic. The being is frequently referred to as 'inscrutable', a characteristic manifested in its followers, who exhibit an air of mysterious otherworldliness.
    The feathered serpent totem creature is believed to refer to the Coatl, a mythical creature said to be a bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird, at times represented as a huge snake covered with brightly coloured feathers, at others as a snake with wide feathered pinions. These feathers are invariable represented as purple or deep blue, or a combination of the two and it has been reported by returning explorers that some Lizardmen sport feathers of this colour as a mark of rank or role, though most scholars refuse to believe they are from an actual Coatl, for surely such a creature must be extremely rare, if it even exists at all.


    It's very clear here, that the "bird" part of the Coatl was very specifically limited to the presence of feathers either on the body and/or wings. Everything else is a snake.
    It's cool and all if you like the thing we got. Glad you do. But that's where it ends really, since there arent really any arguments beyond the simple subjective taste.
    Don't act all surprised if people who actually have known the Coatl from back in the TT days, so actually care about its implementation, are disappointed that what we finally got is a completely brand new re-imagining of the creature that goes against everything we've ever known about the Coatl from official lore and artwork and, more broadly speaking, against the entire thematic theme of the lizardmen faction.

    It also doesn't help that despite having sweet animations when singled out, the entire unit looks janky as hell in combat.
    Bird-snake hybrid opens the door for the CA version. Feathered serpent does not rule out the beak. The CA version is still a serpent.
    No it doesn't open the door. You literally ignore the very next sentence where we are told (by GW) what "bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird" means visually, i.e. "a huge snake covered in feathers and/or a snake with wide feathered pinions". The "bird" part of the hybrid is exlusively the feathers and the feathered wings. And to support said description, we also have an official GW artwork portraying him as such (i won't even mention the 2004 concept art that never saw light of the day unfortunately).

    Dude, it's ok that you like it and all, but stop trying to give some sort of explanation. Just say you never really cared about the Coatl, and you're perfectly fine with CA's complete reimagining of the creature (sure, approved by GW). You like it and It's ok. Not sure why you even bother trying to convince people otherwise (dragon hawks? Native Americans? lol), you're happy with what you got, enjoy it.

    Because the truth is that it is indeed an entire brand new reimagining of the creature by CA's artists, that goes against ALL the prestablished official lore GW wrote on very official sources. It's perfectly fine that longtime LM fans that eagerly awaited to see CA's take on the sacred feathered serpent are disappointed that they got a cockatrice looklike, who's only snake-like feature is an elongated body (which isn't even unique to snakes per se), and is visually compeltely detached from the heavily mesoamerican influenced LM faction.
    Even the elongated body itself isn't snake-like: very prominent and raised scales, dorsal spines ecc.

    It's also clear that the Coatl is not only a complete reimagining, but also the new unit that recieved the least budget. Its incredibly janky and buggy. The fact that it doesn't even have a landing animation when attacking ground units (but is perpetually flying) make it look extremely weird in a lot of movements on the ground.
    Nothing about that description says what part has to be what or that it cant have other bird features. You are just inserting what you want it to be and claiming its fact. There is, relative to any other warhammer unit, scant depictions or lore for the coatl to the point where CA had a practically blank slate and a few lore blurbs to stick to. Which they did by the way.

    I am not telling ppl what to like, per the title of the thread, this is about convincing CA to change it or not and I am simply listing reasons why their Coatl is a faithful representation of the creature from the lore. CA should not change the head.

    The animation has nothing to do with this post and is irrelevant. I suppose I care about the coatl as much as anyone can care about a make believe snake-bird.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,336

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    It's almost as if Tepok, of which the Coatl is a manifestation of, is not known as the "Feathered Serpent God" in every single lore we've ever had about him.... It's "Feathered Serpent God", not "Serpentine Bird God" nor "Dragon Hawk God".

    Just gonna leave this here:

    The blessing of Tepok, the mysterious feathered-serpent god of the air, manifests itself in the form of protection from magic, and is often signified by the colour purple.
    The Lizardmen worship the deity Tepok as the Feathered Serpent God of the air and of sacred places, a powerful symbol of protection against harmful magic. The being is frequently referred to as 'inscrutable', a characteristic manifested in its followers, who exhibit an air of mysterious otherworldliness.
    The feathered serpent totem creature is believed to refer to the Coatl, a mythical creature said to be a bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird, at times represented as a huge snake covered with brightly coloured feathers, at others as a snake with wide feathered pinions. These feathers are invariable represented as purple or deep blue, or a combination of the two and it has been reported by returning explorers that some Lizardmen sport feathers of this colour as a mark of rank or role, though most scholars refuse to believe they are from an actual Coatl, for surely such a creature must be extremely rare, if it even exists at all.


    It's very clear here, that the "bird" part of the Coatl was very specifically limited to the presence of feathers either on the body and/or wings. Everything else is a snake.
    It's cool and all if you like the thing we got. Glad you do. But that's where it ends really, since there arent really any arguments beyond the simple subjective taste.
    Don't act all surprised if people who actually have known the Coatl from back in the TT days, so actually care about its implementation, are disappointed that what we finally got is a completely brand new re-imagining of the creature that goes against everything we've ever known about the Coatl from official lore and artwork and, more broadly speaking, against the entire thematic theme of the lizardmen faction.

    It also doesn't help that despite having sweet animations when singled out, the entire unit looks janky as hell in combat.
    Bird-snake hybrid opens the door for the CA version. Feathered serpent does not rule out the beak. The CA version is still a serpent.
    No it doesn't open the door. You literally ignore the very next sentence where we are told (by GW) what "bizarre hybrid of serpent and bird" means visually, i.e. "a huge snake covered in feathers and/or a snake with wide feathered pinions". The "bird" part of the hybrid is exlusively the feathers and the feathered wings. And to support said description, we also have an official GW artwork portraying him as such (i won't even mention the 2004 concept art that never saw light of the day unfortunately).

    Dude, it's ok that you like it and all, but stop trying to give some sort of explanation. Just say you never really cared about the Coatl, and you're perfectly fine with CA's complete reimagining of the creature (sure, approved by GW). You like it and It's ok. Not sure why you even bother trying to convince people otherwise (dragon hawks? Native Americans? lol), you're happy with what you got, enjoy it.

    Because the truth is that it is indeed an entire brand new reimagining of the creature by CA's artists, that goes against ALL the prestablished official lore GW wrote on very official sources. It's perfectly fine that longtime LM fans that eagerly awaited to see CA's take on the sacred feathered serpent are disappointed that they got a cockatrice looklike, who's only snake-like feature is an elongated body (which isn't even unique to snakes per se), and is visually compeltely detached from the heavily mesoamerican influenced LM faction.
    Even the elongated body itself isn't snake-like: very prominent and raised scales, dorsal spines ecc.

    It's also clear that the Coatl is not only a complete reimagining, but also the new unit that recieved the least budget. Its incredibly janky and buggy. The fact that it doesn't even have a landing animation when attacking ground units (but is perpetually flying) make it look extremely weird in a lot of movements on the ground.
    Nothing about that description says what part has to be what or that it cant have other bird features. You are just inserting what you want it to be and claiming its fact. There is, relative to any other warhammer unit, scant depictions or lore for the coatl to the point where CA had a practically blank slate and a few lore blurbs to stick to. Which they did by the way.

    I am not telling ppl what to like, per the title of the thread, this is about convincing CA to change it or not and I am simply listing reasons why their Coatl is a faithful representation of the creature from the lore. CA should not change the head.

    The animation has nothing to do with this post and is irrelevant. I suppose I care about the coatl as much as anyone can care about a make believe snake-bird.
    Luckily, we have art depictions supporting the snake/draconic angle. Concept arts and Army Book artwork are far from 'blank slate'.

    It's not a faithful representation of the creature though.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,078
    Xenos7777 said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    I don't see how that's an argument against what I said. So if they made the unit humanoid you would have been ok with it, because it appears like that in the mesoamerican iconography?
    No because that’s Quetzalcoatl or Kukulkan who appear humanoid, and they aren’t being added to the game. The plumed serpent is used frequently to represent those gods, but also appears in myths and religious motifs independent of them as well.
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 5,400
    I like the Coatl, I don’t get the backlash.
    *Justice, cats and CONFEDERATION ENABLED for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast! feat mummies and Apophas.
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    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!
    *Bring back settlement conquering artworks!
    *Gnoblar Carpet for Greesus
    *Improve UI


  • ujopujop Registered Users Posts: 144

    Xenos7777 said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    I don't see how that's an argument against what I said. So if they made the unit humanoid you would have been ok with it, because it appears like that in the mesoamerican iconography?
    No because that’s Quetzalcoatl or Kukulkan who appear humanoid, and they aren’t being added to the game. The plumed serpent is used frequently to represent those gods, but also appears in myths and religious motifs independent of them as well.
    Yes as a feathered serpent without wings. So in other words GW adding wings=good, CA adding beak=bad. A bid picky aren't we?
    Just come clean and say you don't like the design. Please stop hiding behind some "mythological" reasons that are incorrect.
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,448

    I like the Coatl, I don’t get the backlash.

    Sometimes I think people just 'need' something to complain about... There is always something....
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,336
    ujop said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    I don't see how that's an argument against what I said. So if they made the unit humanoid you would have been ok with it, because it appears like that in the mesoamerican iconography?
    No because that’s Quetzalcoatl or Kukulkan who appear humanoid, and they aren’t being added to the game. The plumed serpent is used frequently to represent those gods, but also appears in myths and religious motifs independent of them as well.
    Yes as a feathered serpent without wings. So in other words GW adding wings=good, CA adding beak=bad. A bid picky aren't we?
    Just come clean and say you don't like the design. Please stop hiding behind some "mythological" reasons that are incorrect.
    The Coatl has one face. CA did not add the beak. CA did change the creature's ophidian/draconic head.
  • ujopujop Registered Users Posts: 144

    ujop said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    I don't see how that's an argument against what I said. So if they made the unit humanoid you would have been ok with it, because it appears like that in the mesoamerican iconography?
    No because that’s Quetzalcoatl or Kukulkan who appear humanoid, and they aren’t being added to the game. The plumed serpent is used frequently to represent those gods, but also appears in myths and religious motifs independent of them as well.
    Yes as a feathered serpent without wings. So in other words GW adding wings=good, CA adding beak=bad. A bid picky aren't we?
    Just come clean and say you don't like the design. Please stop hiding behind some "mythological" reasons that are incorrect.
    The Coatl has one face. CA did not add the beak. CA did change the creature's ophidian/draconic head.
    Coatl has as many faces as the creator allows. Unless you managed to buy the WH license i don't think it's you.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,336
    ujop said:

    ujop said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    I don't see how that's an argument against what I said. So if they made the unit humanoid you would have been ok with it, because it appears like that in the mesoamerican iconography?
    No because that’s Quetzalcoatl or Kukulkan who appear humanoid, and they aren’t being added to the game. The plumed serpent is used frequently to represent those gods, but also appears in myths and religious motifs independent of them as well.
    Yes as a feathered serpent without wings. So in other words GW adding wings=good, CA adding beak=bad. A bid picky aren't we?
    Just come clean and say you don't like the design. Please stop hiding behind some "mythological" reasons that are incorrect.
    The Coatl has one face. CA did not add the beak. CA did change the creature's ophidian/draconic head.
    Coatl has as many faces as the creator allows. Unless you managed to buy the WH license i don't think it's you.
    The creator can do whatever they want, it doesn't mean that they should.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,078
    ujop said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    I don't see how that's an argument against what I said. So if they made the unit humanoid you would have been ok with it, because it appears like that in the mesoamerican iconography?
    No because that’s Quetzalcoatl or Kukulkan who appear humanoid, and they aren’t being added to the game. The plumed serpent is used frequently to represent those gods, but also appears in myths and religious motifs independent of them as well.
    Yes as a feathered serpent without wings. So in other words GW adding wings=good, CA adding beak=bad. A bid picky aren't we?
    Just come clean and say you don't like the design. Please stop hiding behind some "mythological" reasons that are incorrect.
    Lol yeah it’s bad because the beak changes the entire character of the unit, snakes and birds are tied to very different set of symbolism. Making it more bird like than snake like changes the unit significantly. If you like the idea of a dragon bird more than a feathered serpent just say that, and skip the rambling feeble defenses you keep shutting out.

    Plus I never said anything about whether or not I liked the wings, you invented that all on your own little fella.

  • ujopujop Registered Users Posts: 144

    ujop said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    What we got is really pretty close to a twin-tailed version of a Dragon Hawk from other fantasy IPs. I really like that as a general design for a Tepok themed unit given the link between quetzals and the serpentine Quetzalcoatl depictions.

    Furthermore, native american lore generally from across North America is full of super-birds of some kind, i.e. thunder-bird, and the Coatls being wreathed in lightning is a pretty cool nod to that. Hell, it even has some features pretty close to the Snallygaster of early United States eastern/mid-western folk-lore.

    So all in all I love the beak boy and I see no reason for CA to remove it.

    Your north-american folklore has nothing to do with Mesoamerican culture that which the Lizardmen is based on.

    Coatl means Serpent, Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpent......since when snakes do have beaks?
    Quetzalcoatl is a deity, occasionally represented as a feathered serpent (but also a normal serpent, or a feathered human, or a normal human). There isn't a single established form in the Aztec iconography.
    And none of those examples have beaks, weird frills, and out place horns.
    I don't see how that's an argument against what I said. So if they made the unit humanoid you would have been ok with it, because it appears like that in the mesoamerican iconography?
    No because that’s Quetzalcoatl or Kukulkan who appear humanoid, and they aren’t being added to the game. The plumed serpent is used frequently to represent those gods, but also appears in myths and religious motifs independent of them as well.
    Yes as a feathered serpent without wings. So in other words GW adding wings=good, CA adding beak=bad. A bid picky aren't we?
    Just come clean and say you don't like the design. Please stop hiding behind some "mythological" reasons that are incorrect.
    Lol yeah it’s bad because the beak changes the entire character of the unit, snakes and birds are tied to very different set of symbolism. Making it more bird like than snake like changes the unit significantly. If you like the idea of a dragon bird more than a feathered serpent just say that, and skip the rambling feeble defenses you keep shutting out.

    Plus I never said anything about whether or not I liked the wings, you invented that all on your own little fella.

    Ahh so now we are changing the subject eh? No longer are we talking about comparisons to mythological beings. Now its just: the beak changes the character. Well wasn't so hard was it?

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