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My Take on Thematic Army Compositions - Bretonnia

GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 444
edited August 2021 in General Discussion
Welcome to the next segment of Thematic Army Compositions!

Please remember that these posts are fun and designed for those who like to play with thematic armies in their campaigns - I personally don't care about multiplayer. Bretonnia is sort of an oddball because it pretty much hasn't had new units added since its inception. My reasonings may seem like stretches, so as always, please tell me what you think.

1) King Louen Leoncoeur

Louen on Beaquis
Paladin on Royal Pegasus
Damsel (Heavens) on Unicorn
Knights of the Realm x3
Questing Knights x3
Grail Knights x2
Royal Pegasus Knights x3
Royal Hippogryph Knights x2
Field Trebuchets x4

As regal as it gets! It befits the king of the land to have the most elite units, barring the trebuchets. I initially had infantry and ranged units in the army besides artillery but per User_Clue's input, I switched over to pretty much full cav. LennoxPoodle suggested the removal of the Grail Guardians, so I replaced them with other cavalry.

2) Alberic de Bordeleaux

Alberic on Tempete
Paladin on Barded Warhorse
Damsel (Life) on Unicorn
Beastslayers of Bastonne
Foot Squires
Men-at-Arms (Shields) x2
Wardens of Montfort
Mounted Yeomen Archers x3
Knights of the Lionhearted
Knights of the Realm x3
Pegasus Knights x3
Royal Pegasus Knights x2

Alberic was hard to differentiate from Louen at first, as they both have hippogryph mounts. Ultimately I decided that only the king should have hippogryphs in their army, so Alberic's elites are all Pegaus Knights. He also buffs Knights of the Realm, so he gets their RoR. However, both Pegasus Knight variants and Knights of the Realm are anti-large, so all of Alberic's infantry is not, for balancing purposes. Less elite infantry and cavalry means that Alberic's army can benefit from having a Life mage.

3) Fay Enchantress

Fay Enchantress on Unicorn
Paladin on Barded Warhorse
The Holy Wardens on La Maisontaal
Battle Pilgrims x4
Grail Reliquae x2
Peasant Bowmen (Pox Arrows) x3
Grail Knights x3
Grail Guardians x3
Blessed Field Trebuchets x2

The easiest to set apart, the Fay Enchantress has one fewer character in her army due to her being a spellcaster. All Battle Pilgrims for her. With her healing and the Grail Reliquaes, her infantry will last a lot longer. I gave her the Pox Arrows because of the tenuous connection between the knowledge of healing and that of poison. And finally, she gets the most blessed cavalry and artillery.

4) Repanse de Lyonesse

Repanse on Suleman
Henri le Massif on Hippogryph
Damsel (Beasts) on Unicorn
Men-at-Arms (Shields) x3
Men-at-Arms (Polearm) x3
Peasant Bowmen (Fire Arrows) x4
Knights of the Realm x2
The Companions of Quenelles
Questing Knights x4

I only put Henri on a Hippogryph because it is unique to him. I generally only like to have flying heroes accompany flying lords or units, otherwise they're too much of a target. But hippogryphs are pretty strong, and Henri tanks all of your starting enemies regardless. I chose the lore of beasts for the Damsel to a) have all lores available to Bretonnia represented in this list and b) honestly, Life and Heavens just seemed wrong for the campaign. Basic infantry for Repanse is ok because she buffs them a bit more, and she gets the fire arrows because they're extra good against those TP-toting Tomb Kings. Knights of the Realm give her anti-large cav, but she buffs Questing Knights, so that is the bulk of her mounted forces, along with their RoR.

I feel pretty good about this one, but I am happy to hear your input as well!

After this race, we are left with only WoC, Beastmen, and Norsca. I expect all three to receive changes in the coming months, or at least within the next year. That said, I won't shy away from taking a crack at their compositions in their current state, but it'll come with the caveat that my lists may look idiotic after their updates. Which would you like to see first?

Previous Threads:

Dwarfs https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288070/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-dwarfs
Greenskins https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288285/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-greenskins
Empire https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/289912/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-the-empire
Vamp Counts https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288074/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-vampire-counts
Wood Elves https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288448/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-wood-elves
Post edited by GoldfishLord on

Comments

  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572
    That's a lot a peasant units for Louen's Army. He's not really depicted as leading Peasants in battle (not that he has anything against them). Every knight in Bretonnia owes him fealty so he typically calls on them. He 's always been the one riding at the head of world saving 11th hour charges to relieve the other order races before they lose. Leading peasants is so uncommon for him, that if you included him in your TT army he made all your peasant units special or rare and let you take more grail knights.
    The 4 squires are better off being Knights errant or KotR. One less Treb and Yeoman to fill with more grail knights or lesser knights. You could maybe give him Lionhearted. They're from Lyonesse so would owe fealty to Louen, not Alberic and even though they're named after Thierulf, Louen is also the known as the Lionhearted.

    You could also do use Spearmen at arms for Repanse (something she's known for) and Knights Errant to join her on her crusade instead of Knight or the Realm.

    Other than that, everything else seems to work with the Lore or at least how the character functions in game.

    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 444
    User_Clue said:

    That's a lot a peasant units for Louen's Army. He's not really depicted as leading Peasants in battle (not that he has anything against them). Every knight in Bretonnia owes him fealty so he typically calls on them. He 's always been the one riding at the head of world saving 11th hour charges to relieve the other order races before they lose. Leading peasants is so uncommon for him, that if you included him in your TT army he made all your peasant units special or rare and let you take more grail knights.
    The 4 squires are better off being Knights errant or KotR. One less Treb and Yeoman to fill with more grail knights or lesser knights. You could maybe give him Lionhearted. They're from Lyonesse so would owe fealty to Louen, not Alberic and even though they're named after Thierulf, Louen is also the known as the Lionhearted.

    You could also do use Spearmen at arms for Repanse (something she's known for) and Knights Errant to join her on her crusade instead of Knight or the Realm.

    Other than that, everything else seems to work with the Lore or at least how the character functions in game.

    Hey! I updated my list after your input but I never directly responded to your post. Thank you for weighing in and reading!
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,667
    I think one of the most distinctions between the LL's lorewise are their vows.
    Louen obviously is a grail knights, else he couldn't be king so he has sworn the grail vow. Alberic on the other hand is unusual because he's a Duke who never got around to do questing. As non-knights Repanse (kinda) and Morgianna obviously don't really fall under that. I mean okay Repanse got knighted so maybe she falls under the knights vow as she never quested afaik. The Fay Enchantress isn't the lady btw, she's just her spokesperson. What's interesting about that though, is that the Enchantress actually predates the Lady (in her current form).

    So yeah, as Grail Knight and King Louen commands the finest of the realm and would probably always lead a super strong knightly host. So heavy grail knights (the finest) and hyppogryph knights (the richest and probably most influential) are just right. On the tabletop he was the only lord without a hard cap on Grail Knights (0-1 for everyone besides him or Morgianna). I'd hold of on the Grail Guardians though. In the armybook they're just the Enchantress's bodyguard of Grail Knights and I think they expanded them to the guys guarding holy places instead of returning to their land and titles after sipping from the grail. So it seems they are devoted to the faith rather than the political leadership. Similarly Louen might attract some questing knights but He can be picky enough, that other options feel more appropriate.

    Not having sworn the questing and grail vows, Alberic is probably the most sacular and least religiously devouted duke of any province. Also Bordelaux probably has a reduced affiliation to the lady than the other lands. As a nautically inclined region, Manaan is worshipped there a lot and the merchant class as well as many foreign influence are strong. Also the nobles here are mostly a bunch of useless drunkards. Still the Duke is super knightly and devoted to chivalry (which too predates worship of ze lady), making him rather respected. So all the more sacular knights (everyone without the questing or grail monikers) are a good fit, as well as their personal attendants (foot squires). The Bretonnian navy also makes heavy use of flyers and artillery, making both in turn good fits for Bordelaux.

    This brings us to Morgianna le Fay, the Fay Enchantress. I wrote about Grail Guardians being her Bodyguard earlier, so they are a natural fit, if not requirement. In the TT those guys meant she could field up to 2 units of grail knights. I guess after them Pilgrims, Reliquaries and Questing Knights (they don't have squires attending them!!!) represent the most zealous followers of the cult she's presiding over. The Trebuchet is a peasant invention btw and thus your holy ones hit the nail on the head.

    Lastly Repanse is a difficult case imho. The peasentry worships her and knights follow her into battle because they are ashamed a (originally) peasant woman shows more bravery than them. Also she's obviously blessed.
    Questing knights might flock to her, especially due to the last part and every little type of peasant will certainly do so with double the motivation. Keep in mind that the most numerous group of the latter (on the battlefield) are Archers. She certainly represents a chance for Knights Errant to prove themselves but Grail Knights don't have to do so anymore and might be hard to shame into action.

    @GoldfishLord I'm super happy this thread got bumped, else I would've missed your glorious work.
    I hope I could help and feel free to AMA, as this is one of the Armybooks I have actually lying around.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 444

    I think one of the most distinctions between the LL's lorewise are their vows.
    Louen obviously is a grail knights, else he couldn't be king so he has sworn the grail vow. Alberic on the other hand is unusual because he's a Duke who never got around to do questing. As non-knights Repanse (kinda) and Morgianna obviously don't really fall under that. I mean okay Repanse got knighted so maybe she falls under the knights vow as she never quested afaik. The Fay Enchantress isn't the lady btw, she's just her spokesperson. What's interesting about that though, is that the Enchantress actually predates the Lady (in her current form).

    So yeah, as Grail Knight and King Louen commands the finest of the realm and would probably always lead a super strong knightly host. So heavy grail knights (the finest) and hyppogryph knights (the richest and probably most influential) are just right. On the tabletop he was the only lord without a hard cap on Grail Knights (0-1 for everyone besides him or Morgianna). I'd hold of on the Grail Guardians though. In the armybook they're just the Enchantress's bodyguard of Grail Knights and I think they expanded them to the guys guarding holy places instead of returning to their land and titles after sipping from the grail. So it seems they are devoted to the faith rather than the political leadership. Similarly Louen might attract some questing knights but He can be picky enough, that other options feel more appropriate.

    Not having sworn the questing and grail vows, Alberic is probably the most sacular and least religiously devouted duke of any province. Also Bordelaux probably has a reduced affiliation to the lady than the other lands. As a nautically inclined region, Manaan is worshipped there a lot and the merchant class as well as many foreign influence are strong. Also the nobles here are mostly a bunch of useless drunkards. Still the Duke is super knightly and devoted to chivalry (which too predates worship of ze lady), making him rather respected. So all the more sacular knights (everyone without the questing or grail monikers) are a good fit, as well as their personal attendants (foot squires). The Bretonnian navy also makes heavy use of flyers and artillery, making both in turn good fits for Bordelaux.

    This brings us to Morgianna le Fay, the Fay Enchantress. I wrote about Grail Guardians being her Bodyguard earlier, so they are a natural fit, if not requirement. In the TT those guys meant she could field up to 2 units of grail knights. I guess after them Pilgrims, Reliquaries and Questing Knights (they don't have squires attending them!!!) represent the most zealous followers of the cult she's presiding over. The Trebuchet is a peasant invention btw and thus your holy ones hit the nail on the head.

    Lastly Repanse is a difficult case imho. The peasentry worships her and knights follow her into battle because they are ashamed a (originally) peasant woman shows more bravery than them. Also she's obviously blessed.
    Questing knights might flock to her, especially due to the last part and every little type of peasant will certainly do so with double the motivation. Keep in mind that the most numerous group of the latter (on the battlefield) are Archers. She certainly represents a chance for Knights Errant to prove themselves but Grail Knights don't have to do so anymore and might be hard to shame into action.

    @GoldfishLord I'm super happy this thread got bumped, else I would've missed your glorious work.
    I hope I could help and feel free to AMA, as this is one of the Armybooks I have actually lying around.

    I really appreciate that you took the time to post such a thorough response to an older thread! I read what you wrote a few times, and it seems like you agree with the bulk of my unit allocations. I actually logged on to get cracking on my High Elves post, but I'll take a look and swap Louen's Grail Guardians for something else first. I confess that I must defer to others when it comes to the deeper lore, so it is truly helpful to hear back from people like this. Are there any other specific changes that you think I should make?
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,667

    I think one of the most distinctions between the LL's lorewise are their vows.
    Louen obviously is a grail knights, else he couldn't be king so he has sworn the grail vow. Alberic on the other hand is unusual because he's a Duke who never got around to do questing. As non-knights Repanse (kinda) and Morgianna obviously don't really fall under that. I mean okay Repanse got knighted so maybe she falls under the knights vow as she never quested afaik. The Fay Enchantress isn't the lady btw, she's just her spokesperson. What's interesting about that though, is that the Enchantress actually predates the Lady (in her current form).

    So yeah, as Grail Knight and King Louen commands the finest of the realm and would probably always lead a super strong knightly host. So heavy grail knights (the finest) and hyppogryph knights (the richest and probably most influential) are just right. On the tabletop he was the only lord without a hard cap on Grail Knights (0-1 for everyone besides him or Morgianna). I'd hold of on the Grail Guardians though. In the armybook they're just the Enchantress's bodyguard of Grail Knights and I think they expanded them to the guys guarding holy places instead of returning to their land and titles after sipping from the grail. So it seems they are devoted to the faith rather than the political leadership. Similarly Louen might attract some questing knights but He can be picky enough, that other options feel more appropriate.

    Not having sworn the questing and grail vows, Alberic is probably the most sacular and least religiously devouted duke of any province. Also Bordelaux probably has a reduced affiliation to the lady than the other lands. As a nautically inclined region, Manaan is worshipped there a lot and the merchant class as well as many foreign influence are strong. Also the nobles here are mostly a bunch of useless drunkards. Still the Duke is super knightly and devoted to chivalry (which too predates worship of ze lady), making him rather respected. So all the more sacular knights (everyone without the questing or grail monikers) are a good fit, as well as their personal attendants (foot squires). The Bretonnian navy also makes heavy use of flyers and artillery, making both in turn good fits for Bordelaux.

    This brings us to Morgianna le Fay, the Fay Enchantress. I wrote about Grail Guardians being her Bodyguard earlier, so they are a natural fit, if not requirement. In the TT those guys meant she could field up to 2 units of grail knights. I guess after them Pilgrims, Reliquaries and Questing Knights (they don't have squires attending them!!!) represent the most zealous followers of the cult she's presiding over. The Trebuchet is a peasant invention btw and thus your holy ones hit the nail on the head.

    Lastly Repanse is a difficult case imho. The peasentry worships her and knights follow her into battle because they are ashamed a (originally) peasant woman shows more bravery than them. Also she's obviously blessed.
    Questing knights might flock to her, especially due to the last part and every little type of peasant will certainly do so with double the motivation. Keep in mind that the most numerous group of the latter (on the battlefield) are Archers. She certainly represents a chance for Knights Errant to prove themselves but Grail Knights don't have to do so anymore and might be hard to shame into action.

    @GoldfishLord I'm super happy this thread got bumped, else I would've missed your glorious work.
    I hope I could help and feel free to AMA, as this is one of the Armybooks I have actually lying around.

    I really appreciate that you took the time to post such a thorough response to an older thread! I read what you wrote a few times, and it seems like you agree with the bulk of my unit allocations. I actually logged on to get cracking on my High Elves post, but I'll take a look and swap Louen's Grail Guardians for something else first. I confess that I must defer to others when it comes to the deeper lore, so it is truly helpful to hear back from people like this. Are there any other specific changes that you think I should make?
    Seems pretty good. Maybe 4 Trebuchets for Louen are a bit much, but that's less lore related.
    Given that the the Knights of the Lionhearted are a Lyonesse equivalent their inclusion for Alberic could be questioned, but I have no idea were they would fit better. I mean leoncoeur literally means Lionheart...
    But no, your list seems pretty perfect. The truth is that Bretonnia never went that heavily into subthemes. So there's a lot of wiggle room here.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 444

    I think one of the most distinctions between the LL's lorewise are their vows.
    Louen obviously is a grail knights, else he couldn't be king so he has sworn the grail vow. Alberic on the other hand is unusual because he's a Duke who never got around to do questing. As non-knights Repanse (kinda) and Morgianna obviously don't really fall under that. I mean okay Repanse got knighted so maybe she falls under the knights vow as she never quested afaik. The Fay Enchantress isn't the lady btw, she's just her spokesperson. What's interesting about that though, is that the Enchantress actually predates the Lady (in her current form).

    So yeah, as Grail Knight and King Louen commands the finest of the realm and would probably always lead a super strong knightly host. So heavy grail knights (the finest) and hyppogryph knights (the richest and probably most influential) are just right. On the tabletop he was the only lord without a hard cap on Grail Knights (0-1 for everyone besides him or Morgianna). I'd hold of on the Grail Guardians though. In the armybook they're just the Enchantress's bodyguard of Grail Knights and I think they expanded them to the guys guarding holy places instead of returning to their land and titles after sipping from the grail. So it seems they are devoted to the faith rather than the political leadership. Similarly Louen might attract some questing knights but He can be picky enough, that other options feel more appropriate.

    Not having sworn the questing and grail vows, Alberic is probably the most sacular and least religiously devouted duke of any province. Also Bordelaux probably has a reduced affiliation to the lady than the other lands. As a nautically inclined region, Manaan is worshipped there a lot and the merchant class as well as many foreign influence are strong. Also the nobles here are mostly a bunch of useless drunkards. Still the Duke is super knightly and devoted to chivalry (which too predates worship of ze lady), making him rather respected. So all the more sacular knights (everyone without the questing or grail monikers) are a good fit, as well as their personal attendants (foot squires). The Bretonnian navy also makes heavy use of flyers and artillery, making both in turn good fits for Bordelaux.

    This brings us to Morgianna le Fay, the Fay Enchantress. I wrote about Grail Guardians being her Bodyguard earlier, so they are a natural fit, if not requirement. In the TT those guys meant she could field up to 2 units of grail knights. I guess after them Pilgrims, Reliquaries and Questing Knights (they don't have squires attending them!!!) represent the most zealous followers of the cult she's presiding over. The Trebuchet is a peasant invention btw and thus your holy ones hit the nail on the head.

    Lastly Repanse is a difficult case imho. The peasentry worships her and knights follow her into battle because they are ashamed a (originally) peasant woman shows more bravery than them. Also she's obviously blessed.
    Questing knights might flock to her, especially due to the last part and every little type of peasant will certainly do so with double the motivation. Keep in mind that the most numerous group of the latter (on the battlefield) are Archers. She certainly represents a chance for Knights Errant to prove themselves but Grail Knights don't have to do so anymore and might be hard to shame into action.

    @GoldfishLord I'm super happy this thread got bumped, else I would've missed your glorious work.
    I hope I could help and feel free to AMA, as this is one of the Armybooks I have actually lying around.

    I really appreciate that you took the time to post such a thorough response to an older thread! I read what you wrote a few times, and it seems like you agree with the bulk of my unit allocations. I actually logged on to get cracking on my High Elves post, but I'll take a look and swap Louen's Grail Guardians for something else first. I confess that I must defer to others when it comes to the deeper lore, so it is truly helpful to hear back from people like this. Are there any other specific changes that you think I should make?
    Seems pretty good. Maybe 4 Trebuchets for Louen are a bit much, but that's less lore related.
    Given that the the Knights of the Lionhearted are a Lyonesse equivalent their inclusion for Alberic could be questioned, but I have no idea were they would fit better. I mean leoncoeur literally means Lionheart...
    But no, your list seems pretty perfect. The truth is that Bretonnia never went that heavily into subthemes. So there's a lot of wiggle room here.
    Ok, cool. Thanks. I know that trebuchets are technically a peasant unit, but there are so few actual peasants in the unit that I always figured that they could just be pulled from the baggage train to man the artillery.

    It's a shame that they didn't expand and specialize the Bretonnian roster. I actually quite like their gameplay; it taught me how to use cavalry. I would like to have seen some more of their naval aspect represented.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,667

    I think one of the most distinctions between the LL's lorewise are their vows.
    Louen obviously is a grail knights, else he couldn't be king so he has sworn the grail vow. Alberic on the other hand is unusual because he's a Duke who never got around to do questing. As non-knights Repanse (kinda) and Morgianna obviously don't really fall under that. I mean okay Repanse got knighted so maybe she falls under the knights vow as she never quested afaik. The Fay Enchantress isn't the lady btw, she's just her spokesperson. What's interesting about that though, is that the Enchantress actually predates the Lady (in her current form).

    So yeah, as Grail Knight and King Louen commands the finest of the realm and would probably always lead a super strong knightly host. So heavy grail knights (the finest) and hyppogryph knights (the richest and probably most influential) are just right. On the tabletop he was the only lord without a hard cap on Grail Knights (0-1 for everyone besides him or Morgianna). I'd hold of on the Grail Guardians though. In the armybook they're just the Enchantress's bodyguard of Grail Knights and I think they expanded them to the guys guarding holy places instead of returning to their land and titles after sipping from the grail. So it seems they are devoted to the faith rather than the political leadership. Similarly Louen might attract some questing knights but He can be picky enough, that other options feel more appropriate.

    Not having sworn the questing and grail vows, Alberic is probably the most sacular and least religiously devouted duke of any province. Also Bordelaux probably has a reduced affiliation to the lady than the other lands. As a nautically inclined region, Manaan is worshipped there a lot and the merchant class as well as many foreign influence are strong. Also the nobles here are mostly a bunch of useless drunkards. Still the Duke is super knightly and devoted to chivalry (which too predates worship of ze lady), making him rather respected. So all the more sacular knights (everyone without the questing or grail monikers) are a good fit, as well as their personal attendants (foot squires). The Bretonnian navy also makes heavy use of flyers and artillery, making both in turn good fits for Bordelaux.

    This brings us to Morgianna le Fay, the Fay Enchantress. I wrote about Grail Guardians being her Bodyguard earlier, so they are a natural fit, if not requirement. In the TT those guys meant she could field up to 2 units of grail knights. I guess after them Pilgrims, Reliquaries and Questing Knights (they don't have squires attending them!!!) represent the most zealous followers of the cult she's presiding over. The Trebuchet is a peasant invention btw and thus your holy ones hit the nail on the head.

    Lastly Repanse is a difficult case imho. The peasentry worships her and knights follow her into battle because they are ashamed a (originally) peasant woman shows more bravery than them. Also she's obviously blessed.
    Questing knights might flock to her, especially due to the last part and every little type of peasant will certainly do so with double the motivation. Keep in mind that the most numerous group of the latter (on the battlefield) are Archers. She certainly represents a chance for Knights Errant to prove themselves but Grail Knights don't have to do so anymore and might be hard to shame into action.

    @GoldfishLord I'm super happy this thread got bumped, else I would've missed your glorious work.
    I hope I could help and feel free to AMA, as this is one of the Armybooks I have actually lying around.

    I really appreciate that you took the time to post such a thorough response to an older thread! I read what you wrote a few times, and it seems like you agree with the bulk of my unit allocations. I actually logged on to get cracking on my High Elves post, but I'll take a look and swap Louen's Grail Guardians for something else first. I confess that I must defer to others when it comes to the deeper lore, so it is truly helpful to hear back from people like this. Are there any other specific changes that you think I should make?
    Seems pretty good. Maybe 4 Trebuchets for Louen are a bit much, but that's less lore related.
    Given that the the Knights of the Lionhearted are a Lyonesse equivalent their inclusion for Alberic could be questioned, but I have no idea were they would fit better. I mean leoncoeur literally means Lionheart...
    But no, your list seems pretty perfect. The truth is that Bretonnia never went that heavily into subthemes. So there's a lot of wiggle room here.
    Ok, cool. Thanks. I know that trebuchets are technically a peasant unit, but there are so few actual peasants in the unit that I always figured that they could just be pulled from the baggage train to man the artillery.

    It's a shame that they didn't expand and specialize the Bretonnian roster. I actually quite like their gameplay; it taught me how to use cavalry. I would like to have seen some more of their naval aspect represented.
    Yeah, the naval aspect is a bit iffy. It's from Man o' War, the WHFB naval game. That thing is from pre 6th edition when Bretonnia was a bit different. I think a hypothetical newer edition would handle it very differently, as the faction was focused on fast broadside vessels, basically 18th century naval tactics. I think nowadays it's written of as basically being run by the rather small (but growing) merchant class who doesn't really adhere to the peasant-nobility duality and works by it's rules. With this situation in place it's probably better to strictly separate land and sea forces. The ocean is Manaan's and not the Lady's realm anyway. Also Alberic wasn't really important in the TT at all.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 444

    I think one of the most distinctions between the LL's lorewise are their vows.
    Louen obviously is a grail knights, else he couldn't be king so he has sworn the grail vow. Alberic on the other hand is unusual because he's a Duke who never got around to do questing. As non-knights Repanse (kinda) and Morgianna obviously don't really fall under that. I mean okay Repanse got knighted so maybe she falls under the knights vow as she never quested afaik. The Fay Enchantress isn't the lady btw, she's just her spokesperson. What's interesting about that though, is that the Enchantress actually predates the Lady (in her current form).

    So yeah, as Grail Knight and King Louen commands the finest of the realm and would probably always lead a super strong knightly host. So heavy grail knights (the finest) and hyppogryph knights (the richest and probably most influential) are just right. On the tabletop he was the only lord without a hard cap on Grail Knights (0-1 for everyone besides him or Morgianna). I'd hold of on the Grail Guardians though. In the armybook they're just the Enchantress's bodyguard of Grail Knights and I think they expanded them to the guys guarding holy places instead of returning to their land and titles after sipping from the grail. So it seems they are devoted to the faith rather than the political leadership. Similarly Louen might attract some questing knights but He can be picky enough, that other options feel more appropriate.

    Not having sworn the questing and grail vows, Alberic is probably the most sacular and least religiously devouted duke of any province. Also Bordelaux probably has a reduced affiliation to the lady than the other lands. As a nautically inclined region, Manaan is worshipped there a lot and the merchant class as well as many foreign influence are strong. Also the nobles here are mostly a bunch of useless drunkards. Still the Duke is super knightly and devoted to chivalry (which too predates worship of ze lady), making him rather respected. So all the more sacular knights (everyone without the questing or grail monikers) are a good fit, as well as their personal attendants (foot squires). The Bretonnian navy also makes heavy use of flyers and artillery, making both in turn good fits for Bordelaux.

    This brings us to Morgianna le Fay, the Fay Enchantress. I wrote about Grail Guardians being her Bodyguard earlier, so they are a natural fit, if not requirement. In the TT those guys meant she could field up to 2 units of grail knights. I guess after them Pilgrims, Reliquaries and Questing Knights (they don't have squires attending them!!!) represent the most zealous followers of the cult she's presiding over. The Trebuchet is a peasant invention btw and thus your holy ones hit the nail on the head.

    Lastly Repanse is a difficult case imho. The peasentry worships her and knights follow her into battle because they are ashamed a (originally) peasant woman shows more bravery than them. Also she's obviously blessed.
    Questing knights might flock to her, especially due to the last part and every little type of peasant will certainly do so with double the motivation. Keep in mind that the most numerous group of the latter (on the battlefield) are Archers. She certainly represents a chance for Knights Errant to prove themselves but Grail Knights don't have to do so anymore and might be hard to shame into action.

    @GoldfishLord I'm super happy this thread got bumped, else I would've missed your glorious work.
    I hope I could help and feel free to AMA, as this is one of the Armybooks I have actually lying around.

    I really appreciate that you took the time to post such a thorough response to an older thread! I read what you wrote a few times, and it seems like you agree with the bulk of my unit allocations. I actually logged on to get cracking on my High Elves post, but I'll take a look and swap Louen's Grail Guardians for something else first. I confess that I must defer to others when it comes to the deeper lore, so it is truly helpful to hear back from people like this. Are there any other specific changes that you think I should make?
    Seems pretty good. Maybe 4 Trebuchets for Louen are a bit much, but that's less lore related.
    Given that the the Knights of the Lionhearted are a Lyonesse equivalent their inclusion for Alberic could be questioned, but I have no idea were they would fit better. I mean leoncoeur literally means Lionheart...
    But no, your list seems pretty perfect. The truth is that Bretonnia never went that heavily into subthemes. So there's a lot of wiggle room here.
    Ok, cool. Thanks. I know that trebuchets are technically a peasant unit, but there are so few actual peasants in the unit that I always figured that they could just be pulled from the baggage train to man the artillery.

    It's a shame that they didn't expand and specialize the Bretonnian roster. I actually quite like their gameplay; it taught me how to use cavalry. I would like to have seen some more of their naval aspect represented.
    Yeah, the naval aspect is a bit iffy. It's from Man o' War, the WHFB naval game. That thing is from pre 6th edition when Bretonnia was a bit different. I think a hypothetical newer edition would handle it very differently, as the faction was focused on fast broadside vessels, basically 18th century naval tactics. I think nowadays it's written of as basically being run by the rather small (but growing) merchant class who doesn't really adhere to the peasant-nobility duality and works by it's rules. With this situation in place it's probably better to strictly separate land and sea forces. The ocean is Manaan's and not the Lady's realm anyway. Also Alberic wasn't really important in the TT at all.
    Oh, yeah, while I'd love actual naval units, I suppose that I was talking more about their naval interests, like Alberic having overseas objectives or maybe increased movement range while at sea or something like that.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572

    I think one of the most distinctions between the LL's lorewise are their vows.
    Louen obviously is a grail knights, else he couldn't be king so he has sworn the grail vow. Alberic on the other hand is unusual because he's a Duke who never got around to do questing. As non-knights Repanse (kinda) and Morgianna obviously don't really fall under that. I mean okay Repanse got knighted so maybe she falls under the knights vow as she never quested afaik. The Fay Enchantress isn't the lady btw, she's just her spokesperson. What's interesting about that though, is that the Enchantress actually predates the Lady (in her current form).

    So yeah, as Grail Knight and King Louen commands the finest of the realm and would probably always lead a super strong knightly host. So heavy grail knights (the finest) and hyppogryph knights (the richest and probably most influential) are just right. On the tabletop he was the only lord without a hard cap on Grail Knights (0-1 for everyone besides him or Morgianna). I'd hold of on the Grail Guardians though. In the armybook they're just the Enchantress's bodyguard of Grail Knights and I think they expanded them to the guys guarding holy places instead of returning to their land and titles after sipping from the grail. So it seems they are devoted to the faith rather than the political leadership. Similarly Louen might attract some questing knights but He can be picky enough, that other options feel more appropriate.

    Not having sworn the questing and grail vows, Alberic is probably the most sacular and least religiously devouted duke of any province. Also Bordelaux probably has a reduced affiliation to the lady than the other lands. As a nautically inclined region, Manaan is worshipped there a lot and the merchant class as well as many foreign influence are strong. Also the nobles here are mostly a bunch of useless drunkards. Still the Duke is super knightly and devoted to chivalry (which too predates worship of ze lady), making him rather respected. So all the more sacular knights (everyone without the questing or grail monikers) are a good fit, as well as their personal attendants (foot squires). The Bretonnian navy also makes heavy use of flyers and artillery, making both in turn good fits for Bordelaux.

    This brings us to Morgianna le Fay, the Fay Enchantress. I wrote about Grail Guardians being her Bodyguard earlier, so they are a natural fit, if not requirement. In the TT those guys meant she could field up to 2 units of grail knights. I guess after them Pilgrims, Reliquaries and Questing Knights (they don't have squires attending them!!!) represent the most zealous followers of the cult she's presiding over. The Trebuchet is a peasant invention btw and thus your holy ones hit the nail on the head.

    Lastly Repanse is a difficult case imho. The peasentry worships her and knights follow her into battle because they are ashamed a (originally) peasant woman shows more bravery than them. Also she's obviously blessed.
    Questing knights might flock to her, especially due to the last part and every little type of peasant will certainly do so with double the motivation. Keep in mind that the most numerous group of the latter (on the battlefield) are Archers. She certainly represents a chance for Knights Errant to prove themselves but Grail Knights don't have to do so anymore and might be hard to shame into action.

    @GoldfishLord I'm super happy this thread got bumped, else I would've missed your glorious work.
    I hope I could help and feel free to AMA, as this is one of the Armybooks I have actually lying around.

    I really appreciate that you took the time to post such a thorough response to an older thread! I read what you wrote a few times, and it seems like you agree with the bulk of my unit allocations. I actually logged on to get cracking on my High Elves post, but I'll take a look and swap Louen's Grail Guardians for something else first. I confess that I must defer to others when it comes to the deeper lore, so it is truly helpful to hear back from people like this. Are there any other specific changes that you think I should make?
    Seems pretty good. Maybe 4 Trebuchets for Louen are a bit much, but that's less lore related.
    Given that the the Knights of the Lionhearted are a Lyonesse equivalent their inclusion for Alberic could be questioned, but I have no idea were they would fit better. I mean leoncoeur literally means Lionheart...
    But no, your list seems pretty perfect. The truth is that Bretonnia never went that heavily into subthemes. So there's a lot of wiggle room here.
    Ok, cool. Thanks. I know that trebuchets are technically a peasant unit, but there are so few actual peasants in the unit that I always figured that they could just be pulled from the baggage train to man the artillery.

    It's a shame that they didn't expand and specialize the Bretonnian roster. I actually quite like their gameplay; it taught me how to use cavalry. I would like to have seen some more of their naval aspect represented.
    Yeah, the naval aspect is a bit iffy. It's from Man o' War, the WHFB naval game. That thing is from pre 6th edition when Bretonnia was a bit different. I think a hypothetical newer edition would handle it very differently, as the faction was focused on fast broadside vessels, basically 18th century naval tactics. I think nowadays it's written of as basically being run by the rather small (but growing) merchant class who doesn't really adhere to the peasant-nobility duality and works by it's rules. With this situation in place it's probably better to strictly separate land and sea forces. The ocean is Manaan's and not the Lady's realm anyway. Also Alberic wasn't really important in the TT at all.
    The naval aspect was never retconned. Man o' War is still cannon from an 8th ed lore perspective. Post 6th ed sources have stated that gun powder is not illegal in Bretonnia and there are even some cannons guarding its shore. The Code of Chivalry pre dates the navy and human operated cannons (even in the empire) and has nothing to do with naval combat anyway.

    The Navy is still said to be operated and financed by the nobles and is seen using cannons post 6th ed. Granted a lot of that comes from the official Fantasy Flight RPG.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
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